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Aemeth

....andgodwins

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Agent X

I prefer the atheist's wager myself.

That is that I will live the best way I can and be as good a person as I can and do what i can to make the world a better place if God is a kind and loving God he will judge me on my merits alone and not on things like whether or not I followed religious dogma blindly.

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Sherapy
Pascal's Wager is a particularly nasty, childish piece of philosophy. "Never mind 4000 years of darkness, torture and bafflement, I want to get into heaven!"

Religion does not make people happier. It is something to fall back on in hard times, but the people I know who are religious are amongst the most confused, unhappy, unsure people I've ever met, partly I suspect because they know deep down that their religion, the backbone of their existence, is utterly baseless. I think this may be the reason why questioning someone's faith is taboo.

The reason why this argument gets to me is that faith, especially Islam and Christianity, has caused and continues to cause untold suffering the world over. Do a bit of research into monotheism and you'll discover that Yahweh, the original "one and only God" (as opposed to a collection of different deities) was only invented to unite the tribes of Israel as they wandered around the middle east battling the likes of the Philistines. Before then, there was no "God." Its a political invention.

So don't tell me that the rantings of sexually repressed Iron Age Jews is worth the misery its caused.

And "eternity"? Sounds like hell to me.

i haven't seen it either emma from the ones i know who are the real, i faithful beleiver's across the board catholic, muslim, christian ...take your pick.....the more religious the more unhappy and i note a mess, insecure and depressing and unable to cope with life the ups and downs and get over things ..............

yet what do we expect from a construct that is basically an AA meeting IMO thats what it reminds me of for some reason ...you are powerless over your own life, you have a disease(sin) and the only useful purpose you have is to worship a imaginary product and get others to do the same via personal testimony ... ..its not really a moral builder, i have surmounterd obstacles with little more than a good attitude i'll tell ya it goes along way and is really useful in a practical way... lol....now this is imo based on what I have seen from those who take it really serious....

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥

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SQLserver
If they are happier, why wouldn't that be the lifestyle I want to live?

Because, especially as technology continues to increase, we are all going to have to make a choice between being happy and being real.

Again, the happiest person in the world is one kept in a coffin with a constant stream of endorphins to their brain. Does this make any of their life "real"? Does it make it worth living?

The point is, there is little to no difference between this chemical reaction in the brain and a religious one.

Er, you are still risking eternity, even if it is a small risk. No matter how you twist it, Pascal's wager still favors the existence of deities.

Yes, of course; in the same way that SQL's wager favors a knowledge of an obscure African tribal language to prevent death?

Why don't you learn it, just to be sure?

Unless YOU are the one hooked to the machine, and THIS is the delusion.

That's entirely possible. However, I do not see any evidence for this position, and thus, I will continue living my life as though this is inaccurate.

Cheers,

SQLserver

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The Silver Thong
yeah but working on that theory god might only like people called Jeff who were born on a Sunday

Oh thank god, I'm safe. I was born on Sunday and my name is Jeff :w00t:

but I'm an Atheist LOL so what now :unsure2:

Sorry I thought that was funny.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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BlindMessiah

Pascal's Wager has one extremely fatal flaw: true belief doesn't come from weighing the benefits of theism and atheism, it comes from following what you feel in your metaphorical gut is the truth. If you do not truly believe in God, and he is real, do you really think you can fool him into believing that you believe in him?

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Cradle of Fish

If happiness is all you care about, a leisurely pace in life and few beers on the weekend does the trick.

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Lt_Ripley

Pascal's wager only works when one uses man's opinion of God..... and since that is all there is and no fact ...... it's a poor bet.

Not just no fact that God exists ...... but that man has made the nature of God. Given God human petty qualities like jealousy , egotism and insecurity. Anger and conditional love.

not what one would call perfect and God like at all. So man has no clue to the nature of God.

God may not care what one believes or doesn't believe. Now my money is on that ! Just more Godlike in it's scope. above human thinking and petty emotion.

If happiness is all you care about, a leisurely pace in life and few beers on the weekend does the trick.

remember to share !!

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Aemeth

First part of yer post:

Pascales wager is fudnamentally flawed in that it asks people to make a willful choice, about pre-collected beliefs. I do not believe in god, pointing out that this wont get me any sort of reward cannot change my beliefs. It can make me WANT to believe in something (for the wrong reasons i might add). Do you get me ? Even if i agree with his wager, and even if i agree with its pseudo-logic, it wont actually snap me into believing in god will it ?

Second part of yer post, Ever been to Sweden ?

No ? Didnt think so. Over 80% of the population describe themselves as having no religious beliefs. Are you telling me that the country with some of the lowest cancer rates, lowest unemployment rates, lowest road deaths, among the highest GDP, well respected education and health systems in Europe is unhappy ?

If you can prove that Sweden is unhappier than the UK (BWUAHAHAHAHAHA!!! yeah right)and indeed AFGHANISTAN WITH OVER 95% religious belifs then im with ya. Which you wont.

Though if i was you i would just retract my statement that religious people are happier. I have never seen, or heard of a study (outside of religious circles) which not only verifies, but even supports this claim.

I think peoples own brain chemisrty, social situation and personal outlook has much, much more to do with it. Im not saying atheists are happier, im saying to make such wide ranging generalisations always ends in an inaccurate ASSumption.

First of all, thank you for assuming I have never been to Sweden with the language of an elementary student. But since I no nothing about Sweden, it would silly to tell you that you could get rich by opening up a Starbucks there, since Scandinavian countries drink way more coffee than anyone else, yet you are pretty much stuck with Wayne's. Swedes are craving Starbucks. And you could make them even happier than they already are. But what do I know about Sweden?

As far as I could tell, the study I presented wasn't religious in nature. Hell, they weren't even trying to study that. I barely posted anything other than two links, so if you want to attack my argument like that, maybe you should attack my sources by providing opposing studies, etc.

Pascal's Wager is a particularly nasty, childish piece of philosophy. "Never mind 4000 years of darkness, torture and bafflement, I want to get into heaven!"

Religion does not make people happier. It is something to fall back on in hard times, but the people I know who are religious are amongst the most confused, unhappy, unsure people I've ever met, partly I suspect because they know deep down that their religion, the backbone of their existence, is utterly baseless. I think this may be the reason why questioning someone's faith is taboo.

The reason why this argument gets to me is that faith, especially Islam and Christianity, has caused and continues to cause untold suffering the world over. Do a bit of research into monotheism and you'll discover that Yahweh, the original "one and only God" (as opposed to a collection of different deities) was only invented to unite the tribes of Israel as they wandered around the middle east battling the likes of the Philistines. Before then, there was no "God." Its a political invention.

So don't tell me that the rantings of sexually repressed Iron Age Jews is worth the misery its caused.

And "eternity"? Sounds like hell to me.

First, Pascal's wager is cheap. Yes. And it supports pantheism more than monotheism, IMO. But the wager is still there, as shameful as it is.

We all know people who are held back by religion. It is funny that I make this argument with a form of "evidence" that religious people are happier (link to a neutral study) and I am swarmed by a plethora of "opinions" and personal experiences that suggest religion does not make people happier. I am not discounting the opinions, I just smile at the irony.

And sure. Eternity may be hell. Who knows. It's still eternity (...?) Different discussion, different day. Lol :)

Because, especially as technology continues to increase, we are all going to have to make a choice between being happy and being real.

Again, the happiest person in the world is one kept in a coffin with a constant stream of endorphins to their brain. Does this make any of their life "real"? Does it make it worth living?

The point is, there is little to no difference between this chemical reaction in the brain and a religious one.

Yes, of course; in the same way that SQL's wager favors a knowledge of an obscure African tribal language to prevent death?

Why don't you learn it, just to be sure?

That's entirely possible. However, I do not see any evidence for this position, and thus, I will continue living my life as though this is inaccurate.

Cheers,

SQLserver

Is that the life worth living? To the outsider, no. To the actual person....Maybe..? It sure isn't noble, but I mean if you can use religion to create a dream world for yourself, why not?

Pascal's Wager has one extremely fatal flaw: true belief doesn't come from weighing the benefits of theism and atheism, it comes from following what you feel in your metaphorical gut is the truth. If you do not truly believe in God, and he is real, do you really think you can fool him into believing that you believe in him?

No, but perhaps this wager can be a foundation for some people's faith..? I don't know.

SO:

Let me rephrase and ask a question.

Since there is debate about whether or not religion makes you happier, let's go back a step.

If it could somehow be guaranteed that by submitting to an idea of God, whether or not it was real, would make you a happier person. Would you submit? If so, why? If not, why?

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JamieSymptom

I would not, as I would still be aware that I was making a consious decision to pretend to believe in something. I wouldn't be able to do that, and it wouldn't make me happier anyway, I don't think. The things that make me happy have nothing to do with following any religion.

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Sherapy

For those who are unfamiliar with Pascal's Wager, it can be summed up crudely as:

If theists/eternalists are right, the atheists lose everything.

If atheists are right, the theists/eternalists lose nothing.

http://en.wikipedia....ascal%27s_Wager

But now:

Generally, religion and spirituality increases happiness in life:

http://www.dailygala...eligious-p.html

I am not offering proof of God. I am saying, that from a social and philosophical standpoint, it makes more sense to believe in God (whether or not he actually exists is irrelevant), because, GENERALLY SPEAKING, religious/spiritual people are happier in this life AND aren't risking eternity by not believing...

What are your thoughts?

the flaw with the g-d of pascals wager was his logic, not his psychology....his psychology is collaborated by millions of examples of in totalitarian countries once one realizes the dreadful risk of non beleif and the reward of the exceptance of the beleif at most it would take a few years for anyone to believe quite firmly.....

First one makes believe that one believes and soon one does believe...he hit upon the origin of most religious faith, the child begins by acting like the grownups who beleive and soon beleives himself....what this does is create a strong presumption that the beleif is true..

Nietzsche once made a cutting remark about Kant that can very well fit Pascal too..

"when he waged on g-d the great mathematican became an idiot....."

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digitalartist

There is an underlying conflict between Pascal's Wager and the Bible. Pascal's Wager states that God gas no parts. That being the case he would have no image. The Bible states man was created in God's image. That would seem to indicate that those who believe what is in the Bible to be accurate and true would have to denounce Pascal's Wager as contradicting the Bible.

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Aemeth

S, what does g-d mean? I have always understood this to represent "the Will of God." Is that always how you use it?

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Sherapy

S, what does g-d mean? I have always understood this to represent "the Will of God." Is that always how you use it?

No i borrowed it from the jews ..it is a reminder that g-d it/if is beyond all human interpretation and understanding transcendental.. for me its the equivalent of saying i don't know( agnostic) or don't align myself with any one school of thought on the many g-d theories and that there is no evidence to date to conclude any g-d claim is sound........:w00t:

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥

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