The youth of today...

[xanubia]

The youth are a mix. A lot are afflicted by obesity, and a lot of others (almost all girls) go through ANYTHING to get skinny. Lots of girls want to be underweight for their height and age. I've heard some of the stuppidest ideas for wieght loss; not to mention that a lot of girls undergo some degree of anorexia or bulemia. As for cancer and all that stuff, I don't think the youth really think about it. What they think about is partying, having a good time, and making it to a respectable college.

[Phenomenon]

I think it's the meat. Cancer and heart disease are both considered "western diseases" and this is because it is more prevalent in the west. In studies of people all over the world it has been proven that the less meat eaten, the less the cancer and heart disease rate is.

Try telling that to India. They eat incredible amounts of lamb and beef. It's not so much the meat as the quality. I eat meat everyday, wether it be beef, lamb, pork or chicken. I also trim it to the bone and eat no unecessary fat.

There are so many factors that contribute to the general state of our childrens health. One of my biggest gripes is with the media and the way it protrays skinny as healthy. They almost throw it down the throats of young children, grooming them in to a mind of thought that leads them to think they should all look the same way. Some people are naturally skinny and eat what they like with no regard for their weight. This isn't to say they are healthy and will live longer than someone who puts on weight just by smelling a burger.

I do think that parents should take some responsibility aswell. As a parent myself I am keen to see my children eat well.

[Druidus]

The quality of the meat has nothing to do with it. Meat is a carcinogen and a cause of heart disease. Simple as that.

[Chauncy]

The quality of the meat has nothing to do with it. Meat is a carcinogen and a cause of heart disease. Simple as that.

I don't think meat is a literal carcinogen. We are constantly releasing carcinogens into our environment, our food animals take these in just as much as we do, its no-wonder that these dioxins are in their system, we then eat the very animals we poisoned and Woilla, we get poisoned right back!!

It would seem more logical to stop the pollution then stop eating the meat.

Vegans are 40% less liklely to get cancer not because they don't eat meat, but because their diet maximizes the foods that help us fight cancer like fiber-packed grains and beans and phytochemical-packed fruits and vegetables.

Trimming fat is a good idea, since it is this fat that causes heart disease so less meat and more cancer fighting foods would make sense as apposed to total abstainence.

But to stop eating meat is just preventing symptoms and not the cause, the cause is pollution!!!

[Druidus]

Actually veganism knocks out four problems. First and foremost, the unneeded suffering of one creature for the pleasure of another. Secondly, world hunger. It takes 2000 pounds of grain to feed one cow for a year and only 400 pounds for a human. If we stopped unnaturally breeding just cows into the unnatural levels of population, we would have enough food to feed every human on Earth and then some! Thirdly, meat is carcinogenic. Literally. The substance inside all meats called "casein" is a carcinogenic to humans, one of the worst out there. Meat also does cause heart disease, and there is a risk of mad cow disease, and other various diseases. Fourth and last, but certainly not least, the environment. The truth is, 25%-45% of all pollution is caused by the unnatural numbers of livestock that we breed. Methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide and other pollutants are let into the environment by these livestock. Not to mention that the forests are wiped clean to give room for these farms. Brazil's rainforest's, one of the biggest producer of oxygen in the world, is being destructed to make room for farms.

Why is it that we do not realize these truths?

[Druidus]

Actually veganism knocks out four problems. First and foremost, the unneeded suffering of one creature for the pleasure of another. Secondly, world hunger. It takes 2000 pounds of grain to feed one cow for a year and only 400 pounds for a human. If we stopped unnaturally breeding just cows into the unnatural levels of population, we would have enough food to feed every human on Earth and then some! Thirdly, meat is carcinogenic. Literally. The substance inside all meats called "casein" is a carcinogenic to humans, one of the worst out there. Meat also does cause heart disease, and there is a risk of mad cow disease, and other various diseases. Fourth and last, but certainly not least, the environment. The truth is, 25%-45% of all pollution is caused by the unnatural numbers of livestock that we breed. Methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide and other pollutants are let into the environment by these livestock. Not to mention that the forests are wiped clean to give room for these farms. Brazil's rainforest's, one of the biggest producer of oxygen in the world, is being destructed to make room for farms.

Why is it that we do not realize these truths?

[Druidus]

Actually veganism knocks out four problems. First and foremost, the unneeded suffering of one creature for the pleasure of another. Secondly, world hunger. It takes 2000 pounds of grain to feed one cow for a year and only 400 pounds for a human. If we stopped unnaturally breeding just cows into the unnatural levels of population, we would have enough food to feed every human on Earth and then some! Thirdly, meat is carcinogenic. Literally. The substance inside all meats called "casein" is a carcinogenic to humans, one of the worst out there. Meat also does cause heart disease, and there is a risk of mad cow disease, and other various diseases. Fourth and last, but certainly not least, the environment. The truth is, 25%-45% of all pollution is caused by the unnatural numbers of livestock that we breed. Methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide and other pollutants are let into the environment by these livestock. Not to mention that the forests are wiped clean to give room for these farms. Brazil's rainforest's, one of the biggest producer of oxygen in the world, is being destructed to make room for farms.

Why is it that we do not realize these truths?

[bathory]

First and foremost, the unneeded suffering of one creature for the pleasure of another.

actually the lucrative vegetarian market is responsible for the inhumane slaughter of millions of animals each year, how is this so? COMBINE HARVESTERS:)

Imagine fluffy rabbit hopping along with its 50 children, hey! lets go eat some grain! he thinks, and then BAM! he gets mangled up in the rotating blades. Yup at least we eat the animals we kill:)

econdly, world hunger. It takes 2000 pounds of grain to feed one cow for a year and only 400 pounds for a human. If we stopped unnaturally breeding just cows into the unnatural levels of population, we would have enough food to feed every human on Earth and then some!

well aside from there not being a food shortage:) Do you think they feed cattle human grade grain? nope they feed them total crap grain, oh right, you wanna give the total crap grain to the poor countries, thats ok then.

Not to mention that the forests are wiped clean to give room for these farms. Brazil's rainforest's, one of the biggest producer of oxygen in the world, is being destructed to make room for farms.

and when we all become vegans, don't you think they'll start knocking down forests (highly fertile ground if you know much about forests) to start supplying your own needs.

So far, 3 out of your 4 arguements have fallen flat on their faces, as for the carcinogenics of meat, well, with the vast majority of people dying of other causes other than 'meat cancer' i don't really care:)

[Druidus]

Cancer being one of the leading causes of death (and one of the most painful) worldwide makes me care about it a bit.

actually the lucrative vegetarian market is responsible for the inhumane slaughter of millions of animals each year, how is this so? COMBINE HARVESTERS:)

Imagine fluffy rabbit hopping along with its 50 children, hey! lets go eat some grain! he thinks, and then BAM! he gets mangled up in the rotating blades. Yup at least we eat the animals we kill:)

Do 9 BILLION rabbits die each year? Cause 9 BILLION animals are slaughtered for their meat in the U.S. alone. I don't think that fell on it's face, I think your attempt to trip it caused you to slip on the diminuitive argument you had. If you look at it, only so many rabbits can fit in a field, and I don't think all the fields in the world accomodate even 1 billion rabbits, not to mention that there aren't even that many rabbits. Also, these rabbits are probably not beated, tortured, and at times dismembered or skinned alive because of incomplete cuts as well as living a life where they are not allowed to do anything that is natural to them, and are caged in small cages and forced to live over their own feces and urine for their whole lives. .

well aside from there not being a food shortage:) Do you think they feed cattle human grade grain? nope they feed them total crap grain, oh right, you wanna give the total crap grain to the poor countries, thats ok then.

Actually they feed them perfectly good grain. The only thing is, they mix it with chicken poop, and sometimes beef, pork, chicken or sheep, to save costs. This grain could easily be used to feed the hungry nations. I know that there is no food shortage and by stretching, we could feed everyone, but, to businesses, there is no reason to. If we have a huge surplus (as it would be), we will need to get rid of it, or we will have huge silos filled with rotting grain.

and when we all become vegans, don't you think they'll start knocking down forests (highly fertile ground if you know much about forests) to start supplying your own needs.

Actually you need far less space to raise crops then to raise livestock and so, consequently, we won't need as much land. It's simple math really, I can help you if you need it .

Any more "arguments"?

Edited May 22, 2004 by Druidus

[bathory]

Do 9 BILLION rabbits die each year? Cause 9 BILLION animals are slaughtered for their meat in the U.S. alone. I don't think that fell on it's face, I think your attempt to trip it caused you to slip on the diminuitive argument you had. If you look at it, only so many rabbits can fit in a field, and I don't think all the fields in the world accomodate even 1 billion rabbits, not to mention that there aren't even that many rabbits

this arguement only works if i have qualms about killing animals to support my living, i don't

you on the other hand seem to care about the suffering of animals, however you ignore the millions of critters (not just rabbits, i used that as an example) that are killed in incredibly inhumane ways each year while harvesting the grain used to support your habbit, its a simple case of convenience for you.

Actually they feed them perfectly good grain. The only thing is, they mix it with chicken poop, and sometimes beef, pork, chicken or sheep, to save costs. This grain could easily be used to feed the hungry nations.

they feed them crappy grain, not people grain, but you don't care about that because you will get all the good grain while other countires will get the ****ty grain:)

know that there is no food shortage

so why did you say there is a food shortage?

if we stopped eating meat, food distribution would most likely remain the same

Actually you need far less space to raise crops then to raise livestock and so, consequently, we won't need as much land. It's simple math really, I can help you if you need it

thats right, you do realise that the majority of lifestock are raised on land that is not viable for any other form of agriculture? I somehow doubt they would even knock down rainforest for livestock, it would make a hell of allot more sense to plant vegatables there to make use of the high fertility of the soil, which would lead me to believe thats exactly what they are doing.

heh now i remember where i read about this before

good ole maddox shall do the slapping for me

Maddox is god and mocks your dietry habits!

Edited May 22, 2004 by bathory

[Druidus]

this arguement only works if i have qualms about killing animals to support my living, i don't

you on the other hand seem to care about the suffering of animals, however you ignore the millions of critters (not just rabbits, i used that as an example) that are killed in incredibly inhumane ways each year while harvesting the grain used to support your habbit, its a simple case of convenience for you.

Maybe millions die, but at least billions don't. I don't care whether or not you care. If you think they are killed in "incredibly inhumane ways" then you obviously haven't seen much footage of todays slaughterhouses.

they feed them crappy grain, not people grain, but you don't care about that because you will get all the good grain while other countires will get the ****ty grain:)

What is "crappy grain"? I did some research and I found out that they buy their grain from the same companies who sell it to people, and to companies who make products to sell to people. Your argument does not exist as there is no such thing as a company that produces or sells "crappy grain".

so why did you say there is a food shortage?

if we stopped eating meat, food distribution would most likely remain the same

There is a food shortage in some countries, but worldwide, there is none. Food distribution would not remain the same. How could it? The waste stream would become to much with so much surplus grain and so, consequently, we would have to rid ourselves of it. Either give it away for free, or sell it for incredibly low prices to other countries.

thats right, you do realise that the majority of lifestock are raised on land that is not viable for any other form of agriculture? I somehow doubt they would even knock down rainforest for livestock, it would make a hell of allot more sense to plant vegatables there to make use of the high fertility of the soil, which would lead me to believe thats exactly what they are doing.

Actually they do knock down rainforest for livestock. To be more precise, they burn it down using controlled fire, again harming the environment. All that is needed to replenish the soil in an area is to grow peanuts one year and then grow clover (which we used to feed to animals) the next. That would replenish the soil and make it viable to use for most crops.

heh now i remember where i read about this before

good ole maddox shall do the slapping for me

Maddox is god and mocks your dietry habits!

Heh heh, Yeah, maddox is funny!

A few more reasons:

1. We feed them many antibiotics because of the conditions we keep them in, which are suitable for disease. These antibiotics are passed on to humans, and they are a major factor in the evolution of certain "super viruses". They are resistant to antibiotics, and eventually if we continue using antibiotics at the rate we do, we will have a virus, that we can never stop, no matter what we do.

2. Even if the average meat consumption is cut down by 20% in the U.S., in another 20 years we will need over 50 BILLION animals to kill for meat, instead of the present, already unnatural 9 billion, because of population growth. Even more pollution, even more loss of forest land, even more antibiotics, even more cancer, heart disease and other diseases.

[Babs]

I read the topic and I am responding to that. Your friend does have a point; health conscious people: vegetarians, vegans, body builders etc. ... and people who take vitamins and minerals most of their lives, are lined up at the Mayo Clinic with cancer.

Young and healthy people get cancer; the doctors just don't know why.

That's not to say we shouldn't follow a healthy diet...the doctors say that following a healthy diet helps.

My answer to that is, "It helps what?" ... " It doesn't keep us from getting cancer!" Maybe, it does help 'some'... but not all. I don't think they have the answer to this, yet.

I do follow a healthy diet and take vitamins and minerals... have for many years; I am also a vegetarian... but, I am not kidding myself, cancer can strike anywhere, anytime and to anybody.

Edited May 23, 2004 by Babs

[Chauncy]

What we all should do is start a vitamin regime that consists of Omega 3-6-9 fish oils, with Vitamin E, Ginseng and Pantothenic Acid, this combined with a daily drop of Monatomic Gold is phenomonal!

I started this regime a year ago and can not believe the results, I'm sharp as a tack as a result. I never get that feeling , you know , when something is at the tip of your tongue but you can't spit it out, that never happens to me anymore. Information retrieval becomes extremely fluent as a result of these supplements!

Plus eating healthy and exercise is crucial as well!!!

[bathory]

Maybe millions die, but at least billions don't. I don't care whether or not you care. If you think they are killed in "incredibly inhumane ways" then you obviously haven't seen much footage of todays slaughterhouses

here's an article

EAT BEEF:)

most interesting

Accurate numbers of mortality aren't available, but Tew and Macdonald (1993) reported that wood mouse population density in cereal fields dropped from 25/ha preharvest to less than 5/ha postharvest. This decrease was attributed to migration out of the field and to mortality. Therefore, it may be reasonable to estimate mortality of 10 animals/ha in conventional corn and soybean production.

There are 120 million ha of harvested cropland in the US (USDA, 2000). If all of that land was used to produce a plant-based diet, and if 10 animals of the field are killed per ha per year, then 10 x 120 million = 1200 million or 1.2 billion would be killed to produce a vegan diet. If half of that land (60 million) was converted to forage production and if forage production systems decreased the number of animals of the field killed per year by 50% (5 per year per ha), the number of animals killed would be:

1.2 billion furry animals died just to get all that grain, and this is just one species of furry animal in one country, you aren't even including all the poor defenceless bugs and other critters, maddox said it best, as for how animals are slaughtered, its allot more humane in a slaughterhouse, than what goes on to supply YOU with your grain.

What is "crappy grain"? I did some research and I found out that they buy their grain from the same companies who sell it to people, and to companies who make products to sell to people. Your argument does not exist as there is no such thing as a company that produces or sells "crappy grain".

crappy grain is low-grade grain which is deemed unfit for human consumption, companies are irrelevant, did you know Microsoft makes both Operating Software and Word Processors? WOW WHO'D HAVE THOUGHT A COMPANY COULD DO MORE THAN ONE THING! the majority of this grain is given to the animals.

Actually they do knock down rainforest for livestock. To be more precise, they burn it down using controlled fire, again harming the environment.

actually i'll concede to this, some of the forest is cleared for livestock, however some of it is also cleared for agriculture, we are running even on this point:)

All that is needed to replenish the soil in an area is to grow peanuts one year and then grow clover (which we used to feed to animals) the next.

that would be all well and good if the land was capable of supporting these crops too, even then, think of all the animals you kill when you replow these fields to get ready for your new crops of wheat or whatever

We feed them many antibiotics because of the conditions we keep them in, which are suitable for disease.

i didn't know you could battery farm cows....

heart disease isn't a direct result of meat, its about how you prepare the meat, as for cancer, it would seem the chances of getting cancer from meat is very low (since the majority of people eat meat, and the majority of people don't get cancer) so its kind of irrelevant.

[Babs]

You can get cancer from a lot of things...meat has hormones in it. Much of breast cancer is dependent on the hormone estrogen; you can pick up estrogen (in the hormones) by eating meat. You can pick up estrogen-like properties that act like estrogen in your body through chemicals, pesticides, household cleaning products, dry-cleaning chemicals, lawn fertilizer etc. ....even your backyard barbecue gives off carcinogens in the cooking of meat. The smoke from your barbecue has carcinogens in it too.

There are many different types of cancers and many different causes.

[Druidus]

1.2 billion furry animals died just to get all that grain, and this is just one species of furry animal in one country, you aren't even including all the poor defenceless bugs and other critters, maddox said it best, as for how animals are slaughtered, its allot more humane in a slaughterhouse, than what goes on to supply YOU with your grain.

And animals can't run away? They are tied to the ground while the harvester plows them over? Animals, especially small ones, run from noise. Also, where did he get his numbers? In the whole of the world, very few animals, besides insects, reach into the billions. Anyway, the point is, most will run away and not die, while farmed animals are not even given that chance. I have no problem with meat, I mean, we did evolve as mostly vegetarian omnivores, as long as the animal is given a fair chance. Hunt it with a spear, bow (not the fancy new ones) or even your bare hands and I have no qualms.

By the way, many crops are grown by hydroponics, in which water is used instead of soil. Using this, you only have a one time kill of however many animals in order to give room for the hydroponics building. This is even better for the environment, because there is no need for pesticides and there is no soil runoff.

crappy grain is low-grade grain which is deemed unfit for human consumption, companies are irrelevant, did you know Microsoft makes both Operating Software and Word Processors? WOW WHO'D HAVE THOUGHT A COMPANY COULD DO MORE THAN ONE THING! the majority of this grain is given to the animals.

hmmm.... You'd think that because over 95% of farmed wheat is genetically modified to become "better", most wheat is probably the same anyway. You don't go to buy flour and say, "No, we'll get the other kind, this is lower quality." I'm sure that if there even is "crappy grain" then there would be different qualities out there for people to buy.

that would be all well and good if the land was capable of supporting these crops too, even then, think of all the animals you kill when you replow these fields to get ready for your new crops of wheat or whatever

Peanuts can grow in the least quality of soil. If it can't grow, neither can weeds or grass. Once peanuts grow, they deposit nutrients for clover to grow. Once clover grows, it deposits nutrients almost all plants can use, and in high amounts. This is standard today. Ever since the 1880's we've used different plants to deposit nutrients, during different years. Once they manage to make clover grow (usually through peanuts or similar plants) they go like this (not nescessarily these crops):

Corn

Cabbage

Another rejuvenating crop

And so on. It is all well and good.

i didn't know you could battery farm cows....

They can and do.

heart disease isn't a direct result of meat, its about how you prepare the meat, as for cancer, it would seem the chances of getting cancer from meat is very low (since the majority of people eat meat, and the majority of people don't get cancer) so its kind of irrelevant.

Heart disease is a direct cause of cholesterol. Meat is high in cholesterol, which the human body is not prepared to handle in the doses most take in, therefore, meat causes heart disease. You don't see tigers dropping dead because of high cholesterol, that's because their bodies can handle it. Cancer affects 1/5 people. 20% of people will get cancer in there lifetimes. It is very widespread. Almost everyone knows someone who has or has had cancer. 14 million people are vegetarians in the U.S. alone and they are steadily rising. Meat is one of the most potent carcinogens in the world, and is thought to cause many cases of cancer in which there is no cause like smoking or excessive drinking. Meat causes up to thirty percent of all cancer.

Your friend does have a point; health conscious people: vegetarians, vegans, body builders etc., people who take vitamins and minerals most of their lives are lined up at the Mayo Clinic with cancer.

You do not need vitamins to to live a vegan lifestyle. It is a common myth. You may need B12 but that is only because bacteria produce it, and people are desperate for cleanliness nowadays, and so there are less bacteria. Meat has more B12 then any vegetable, but that's because meat is filled with bacteria.

Edited May 23, 2004 by Druidus

[Babs]

I wasn't clear on that; I edited it....I mean apart from vegans, vegetarians, body builders etc. ...people that take vitamins and minerals all their lives, are lined up at the Mayo Clinic with cancer.

I don't eat meat, fish, poultry, dairy, sugar, white flour or processed foods...no fast foods and I eat as much organic fruits and vegetables as possible. I have my own garden, too. I think that is vegan...beyond vegetarian.

[Babs]

They say, if we live long enough, we'll all come down with cancer; it's part of aging.

[Druidus]

Vegetarian = Eating no meat

Vegan = Eating no meat, milk, eggs or meat by-products, or wearing anything made using animals, or using anything tested on animals (gillette tests their shaving cream on rabbits. They put it in their eyes to see how much damage it causes. They usually put it in their eyes.

You are a vegetarian , although a very strict one.

No disease is a nutural part of aging. Everyone, if living the perfect healthy life, should get no major diseases in their whole life. Whether that be 18 or 118.

[bathory]

No disease is a nutural part of aging. Everyone, if living the perfect healthy life, should get no major diseases in their whole life. Whether that be 18 or 118.

well cancer is a genetic thing as opposed to something like the flue

all it takes is one cell to screw up when duplicating, and then you have a useless cell that starts to divide, and divide, and divide, so the longer that you live, the higher the chance you have of getting cancer:P

[xanubia]

There's something that we should all realize- carcinogens are all around us, at all times. You could call the sun, smoke, exhaust, EVERYTHING under your bathroom sink, etc carcinogens. And it is estimated that the average human gets cancer about five times in his/her life. But your body can usally fight it off. It all depends on the dosage you get. Meat may be an indeirect cause to cancer, but it is probably only a problem in the U.S. It's because Americans eat SO DAMN MUCH OF IT!! Meat is everywhere, and in huge amounts. We also don't eat nearly enough of the other stuff. At resturanuts here they'll give you a small bowl of salad right before a two pound steak. Humans were designed to eat meat. But in certain in amounts.

I do think that slaughter houses are absoluetly cruel. But I do eat meat- all the meat I eat has been taken from animals that have been much more humanely slaughtered (religous obligation). They are cut at the neck, by a person. NOT by a machine which can start cutting up a cow while it is still alive.

P.S.~ if you wanted to completely rid your life of carcinogens, you would have to live in a clean room (that they make computer chips in) for the rest of your life and never come out.

[Druidus]

I do think that slaughter houses are absoluetly cruel. But I do eat meat- all the meat I eat has been taken from animals that have been much more humanely slaughtered (religous obligation). They are cut at the neck, by a person. NOT by a machine which can start cutting up a cow while it is still alive.

Kosher right? Sorry but that is creul too. People who do the cutting tie their legs to a hoist which lifts them up by the legs, breaking their hips and legs because of the weight. They wait up to 6 minutes on broken legs before arriving to a man who does the cutting and sends them on still attached to the machine. They roll down like an assembly line and get skinned, quartered, and chopped up. The man who does the cutting usually doesn't think twice about it. He cuts and then presses a button to send it on down. It is estimated that 40% of kosher meat was still alive when skinned and chopped. They distort the whole purpose of kosher, the b*******!

[Fluffybunny]

Druidus, I'll send you $5.00 U.S. today if you would just give it a break...Anything to get this thread to die the quiet death it deserves...

I know you are passionate about your beliefs, that is wonderful, I am happy for you. Unfortunately the PETA propaganda is getting a bit old, as is the psuedo science you have been spouting as of recent.

You are a devout vegi-type person. Duly noted. congrats. I'll have a soy burger in your honor. No cheese even. I'll make sure the tomatos were killed in a humane manner. I wont even think about using mayo.

Please, no more.

[Druidus]

Druidus, I'll send you $5.00 U.S. today if you would just give it a break...Anything to get this thread to die the quiet death it deserves...

I know you are passionate about your beliefs, that is wonderful, I am happy for you. Unfortunately the PETA propaganda is getting a bit old, as is the psuedo science you have been spouting as of recent.

You are a devout vegi-type person. Duly noted. congrats. I'll have a soy burger in your honor. No cheese even. I'll make sure the tomatos were killed in a humane manner. I wont even think about using mayo.

Please, no more.

No one is forcing you to read it. In fact, why did you just waste your time replying to a topic you want to die? I will let it die when people stop posting, if someone posts I will reply. If you don't like it, go whine to your mommy. I personally don't believe PETA is entirely honest and I get my information from other sites that are as close to neutral as I can get.

I also don't give a damn what you eat. Eat beef if you want, or cheese, or mayo. I don't give a damn. I only spread information. Take it if you want it, ignore it if you want to. What "pseudo-science" have I been spouting? Care to explain why it is?

[xanubia]

Kosher right?

No, not Kosher. Even if it was, it's better than the slaughter house.