Ancient Stonework of Peru

[Swede]

This is that wall the Inca stonecutters made during colonial times:

http://www.rutahsa.com/incaarch.html

Now, if the Incas/Quechuas who build this wall during colonial times, would the Spaniards not have reported it if these people used tools/methods that would have appeared like 'magic' to the Spaniards???

Excellent case-in point!

Do you observe any extensive use of mortar? I must admit I don't.

The size factor would appear to be a red herring as it is not germane to the topic of methodology.

The keyed joints lack precision? Interesting.

[Abramelin]

Steady on my friend and look closely - is that mortar I see in those joints?

Also, we have no context of size/weight for this example.

Looking closely, this wall does not appear to be of the same precision as the other examples in South America.

Not convinced - sorry.

Not convinced of what, Zoser?

Yes, you certainly have a point; after enlarging the photo I saw the mortar too.

Now what does that prove? It proves professional stoneworkers use the best of two methods. They create irregular stones because they know from experience these stones can withstand earthquakes lots better than regular shaped stones, and they use mortar because that saves them a hell of a lot of time. If they did not use mortar (or knew of its existense), then they had to make the sides perfectly smooth to fit like a hand in a glove.

From their culture we can deduce these people were smart, so if they could save time, they would do it.

And so they used mortar - an 'old World' technique - together with their 'new World' technique of shaping stones.

For the rest, the wall resembles pre-colonial style Inca walls. "Size is not important", lol.

What do you think yourself, that these Incan stonecutters forgot their craft? Or that they knew how to save time, and added a new technique to be able to work faster? The Spaniards were not that 'nice' to them, and they knew the Spaniards were not willing to wait a decade to complete the building. And clever as they were, they used a technique new to them: mortar.

And her we have the main issue: we want certain things to be true, because they mistify us, and that's what we all love. But practical people - like these Incan stoneworkers, didn't give a fig about mystery, they wanted their job done fast and easy.

.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Abramelin

[zoser]

Not convinced of what, Zoser?

Yes, you certainly have a point; after enlarging the photo I saw the mortar too.

Now what does that prove? It proves professional stoneworkers use the best of two methods. They create irregular stones because they know from experience these stones can withstand earthquakes lots better than regular shaped stones, and they use mortar because that saves them a hell of a lot of time. If they did not use mortar (or knew of its existense), then they had to make the sides perfectly smooth to fit like a hand in a glove.

From their culture we can deduce these people were smart, so if they could save time, they would do it.

And so they used mortar - an 'old World' technique - together with their 'new World' technique of shaping stones.

For the rest, the wall resembles pre-colonial style Inca walls. "Size is not important", lol.

What do you think yourself, that these Incan stonecutters forgot their craft? Or that they knew how to save time, and added a new technique to be able to work faster? The Spaniards were not that 'nice' to them, and they knew the Spaniards were not willing to wait a decade to complete the building. And clever as they were, they used a technique new to them: mortar.

And her we have the main issue: we want certain things to be true, because they mistify us, and that's what we all love. But practical people - like these Incan stoneworkers, didn't give a fig about mystery, they wanted their job done fast and easy.

.

One of the main aspects to the awe and wonder that some have regarding ancient stonework is that it was achieved using stones of incredible weight and size. For example I would rather finish a 10Kg block of granite rather than a 50 tonne block measuring 2m high. Size and weight is important to our argument. In the above photo the mortar can clearly be seen as a yellowish filler between the joints of the stones meaning that high precision is not critical - it is how we build today in the main.

Look at the stonework at Puma Punku, The Great Pyramid Kings Chamber, Tiahuanaco, and Sacsayhuaman, and even the smallest feeler guage would not fit between the joints. This is not true with your photo above.

Edited September 1, 2009 by zoser

[Abramelin]

So you think these Incan stoneworkers just forgot about their craft when they had to work for the Spaniards?

No, they did it the easy way, using mortar, a technique they learned from their conquerors.

And no Spaniard - if that's what you are thinking - would try to copy the Incan style of building. Why should they, if they were Spaniards? They wanted houses, churches, and other buildings.... fast, not after a decade...

Edited September 1, 2009 by Abramelin

[Swede]

As has been noted in the past, one of the problems with some (most?) of the fringe-level interpretation lies in the taking of specific examples out of their inherent cultural context. The above discussion may be a good example.

The Inca Empire produced a number of impressive works that reflect a high degree of mobilized labor. Take, for instance, the road system. As presented in "The Inca Road System" John Hyslop, Studies in Archaeology, 1984, the Inca established a road system that has been estimated to have run some 18,000 km. And this in less in level terrain. This system, with its way stations and numerous bridges linked dozens of settlement areas and provided for the efficient administration of a rather vast geographic region. While it is acknowledged that some of this work involved a degree of utilization of pre-existing roadways, there is little debate as to the ancestry of the final product.

With such major accomplishments fully accepted and attributed, then why is there so much puzzlement over related achievements by the same culture?

Oh, I get it. Roads aren't as photogenic. Or was it selective intervention?...chuckle.

[lightly]

ShadowSot, on 30 August 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

"Never thought the Romans and Canaanites counted as unknowns.

The larger site with the huge blocks is littered with Roman trash.

They built on top of a earlier Canaan site."

Shadowsot, on 31 August 2009

"The foundation stones, the large ones you are referring to, were put there but are not the work of the Canaan. Evidence points tot he Romans, as there is Roman detritus found under the stones. "

lightlyy ,on 4 September 2009.

so as far as is known.. the foundation stones under the roman temple at Baalbek (Lebanon).. are still the largest monoliths yet discovered? ?

If Roman detritus/trash was found under the blocks.. i bet the Romans dug underneath and buried it there.... or was it really really flat stuff? hehe.

Anyone have more Thoughts ,Theories or Conclusions on the Stonework of Peru/ South America?????

Edited September 4, 2009 by lightlyy

[KennyB]

The simplest method would be to use alien tecnology. They could manuever and fit the hardest stone as easily as we do wood. They're bound to have had antigravity. Can you imagine a spaceship loaded with gold ingots and rocket powered trying to launch against the Earth's gravity? KennyB

[digitalartist]

The simplest method would be to use alien tecnology. They could manuever and fit the hardest stone as easily as we do wood. They're bound to have had antigravity. Can you imagine a spaceship loaded with gold ingots and rocket powered trying to launch against the Earth's gravity? KennyB

No I can't say that I could imagine that, but you must use imagination for something like that as it never happened in reality.

[Abramelin]

The simplest method would be to use alien tecnology. They could manuever and fit the hardest stone as easily as we do wood. They're bound to have had antigravity. Can you imagine a spaceship loaded with gold ingots and rocket powered trying to launch against the Earth's gravity? KennyB

You don't know anything about aliens, or about their technology.

We all can imagine many things, but that's the easy way out.

We don't know, you dont know, and so we use scientific methods - the method you appear to hate most - to distinguish between crap and serious facts.

[lightly]

mhmm... grindy grindy... ok fellas HEEEEAVE!

[TheSearcher]

The simplest method would be to use alien tecnology. They could manuever and fit the hardest stone as easily as we do wood. They're bound to have had antigravity. Can you imagine a spaceship loaded with gold ingots and rocket powered trying to launch against the Earth's gravity? KennyB

But since there is no indication of alien technology, that's a moot point really. Imagining something does not make it true.

[lightly]

There are also 3) grinding side to side and 4) grinding and fitting and grinding and fitting. The second is actually more likely. It only requires them to have some means of moving the stones. Which they obviously had or they would not be in the positions that they are.

I think that is the true mystery. How exactly this multi-ton stones were moved and manipulated.

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thanks DieChecker, i can't help but wonder how multi-ton ,multi faceted, stones would take on the shapes they are by being ground "side to side" ? ? As for you point (4) fitting and grinding and fitting... i think i said the same thing when i said "hoisted and lowered repeatedly until they fit perfectly" ??

If the construction of these types of massive walls are easily explained and relatively easily done , as some have said .. why has no one demonstrated the ease.. even with a wall of a few such rocks? just wondering. still.

Edited September 17, 2009 by lightlyy

[mcrom901]

But since there is no indication of alien technology, that's a moot point really. Imagining something does not make it true.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=163023

[ninjadude]

really. Alien technology? What does that look like? Where can I study that? Not just guesses but real knowledge.

I want to learn.. Do I have to be abucted to Venus like the Japanese PM's wife?

Edited September 17, 2009 by ninjadude

[lightly]

hi, is this topic dead? no mystery at all ? sometimes this site reminds me of some guy(i have forgotten his name and it isn't important) that ran the U.S. Patent office in the late 1800's? Who authoratatively stated "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

[Abramelin]

hi, is this topic dead? no mystery at all ? sometimes this site reminds me of some guy(i have forgotten his name and it isn't important) that ran the U.S. Patent office in the late 1800's? Who authoratatively stated "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

Well, speculating is nice, but maybe we better wait for what archeologists will dig up there:

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/

I posted this link before, and it's - as far as I know - the only website concerning serious research on the site.

[questionmark]

hi, is this topic dead? no mystery at all ? sometimes this site reminds me of some guy(i have forgotten his name and it isn't important) that ran the U.S. Patent office in the late 1800's? Who authoratatively stated "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

That was in 1844... but this is not a question of "inventing".

[lightly]

Abramelin , Thanks for the site address. I just reread the 5 pages of this topic.. and i found no speculations on my part.. only questions. I found much speculation by others... most of the posts in fact. I admit to being guilty of huge and sometimes demonstrably wrong speculations on other topics,but apparently not this one YET! i will try to wait ,as you suggest," for what archeologists will dig up there" ... i wish they could pick up the pace, i'm getting old.

questionmark, thanks, your right, this topic is not about inventing...my reference to the patent office guy's statement was my attempt to reveal how thinking can stop prematurely sometimes. An intellectual crime worse than speculation, in my view.

i may have learned one thing ... my original post starting this topic was "Ancient Stonework of Peru" ,being aware of no other,.. Another poster (DarkLord) informed me/us that the same type of Odd 'puffy' looking ,multi faceted (ok, polygonal) stonework is also found in Bolivia and Ecuador. ?

[Swede]

Abramelin , Thanks for the site address. I just reread the 5 pages of this topic.. and i found no speculations on my part.. only questions. I found much speculation by others... most of the posts in fact. I admit to being guilty of huge and sometimes demonstrably wrong speculations on other topics,but apparently not this one YET! i will try to wait ,as you suggest," for what archeologists will dig up there" ... i wish they could pick up the pace, i'm getting old.

questionmark, thanks, your right, this topic is not about inventing...my reference to the patent office guy's statement was my attempt to reveal how thinking can stop prematurely sometimes. An intellectual crime worse than speculation, in my view.

i may have learned one thing ... my original post starting this topic was "Ancient Stonework of Peru" ,being aware of no other,.. Another poster (DarkLord) informed me/us that the same type of Odd 'puffy' looking ,multi faceted (ok, polygonal) stonework is also found in Bolivia and Ecuador. ?

Most fine! The opportunity for you to investigate adjacent cultural components should lead you to some rational conclusions.

[lightly]

Most fine! The opportunity for you to investigate adjacent cultural components should lead you to some rational conclusions.

Thanks Swede, for your concern about my rationality,but I have not posted any conclusions on this topic. It was kind of Abramelin to give me a site address about tiwanaku...in what is now Bolivia.. as i am very curious about that place too, but isn't that a completely different sort of stonework than the type i was so curious about when i started this topic? (the type found at Sacsayhuaman near Cuzco Peru... and elsewhere) i would dare to speculate that such completely different types of stonework might be constructed by different groups of people?

Edited September 20, 2009 by lightlyy

[Swede]

Thanks Swede, for your concern about my rationality,but I have not posted any conclusions on this topic. It was kind of Abramelin to give me a site address about tiwanaku...in what is now Bolivia.. as i am very curious about that place too, but isn't that a completely different sort of stonework than the type i was so curious about when i started this topic? (the type found at Sacsayhuaman near Cuzco Peru... and elsewhere) i would dare to speculate that such completely different types of stonework might be constructed by different groups of people?

Exactly! Now, I wasn't questioning your rationality in the least. What I was implying is that which you have (rationally) observed. That the use of lithic building materials in that region of the world was rather wide-spread and utilized by a number of cultural elements, with, to some degree, different applications of technology. This would argue for both the utilization of available resources and the development of stone working skills, with the potential for some of the knowledge derived to be transmitted between or observed by different elements.

Point being, some of the examples of this technology that are held up as evidence of something "incomprehensible" were not created in a vacuum, but are tied to a much broader cultural base that provides a temporal and physical precedent for the technology.

[The_Spartan]

Its a real shame that these so-called alien builders (of puma punku or whatever buildings attributed to be the handiworks of aliens...) never knew the periodic table?? never knew that some materials are more stronger, durable and easy to work on than stone/rock/granite??

thats real fishy for highly advanced alien civilizations!!

[questionmark]

thats real fishy for highly advanced alien civilizations!!

A legend can never be more scientifically accurate than the scientific knowledge of those telling it... this is especially true for alien legends.

[Hanslune]

hi, is this topic dead? no mystery at all ? sometimes this site reminds me of some guy(i have forgotten his name and it isn't important) that ran the U.S. Patent office in the late 1800's? Who authoratatively stated "Everything that can be invented, has been invented."

Howdy Lightlyy

The above is a myth

http://www.ideafinder.com/guest/archives/wow-duell.htm

The closest anyone got to it was.... A clue to the origin of the myth may be found in Patent Office Commissioner Henry Ellsworth’s 1843 report to Congress. In it he states, "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end."

The man most painted with the brush of stupidity for having said it was Charles H. Duell, U.S. Commissioner of Patents, in 1899.

Nice myth but in fact it has no basis in fact.

[lightly]

Exactly! Now, I wasn't questioning your rationality in the least. What I was implying is that which you have (rationally) observed. That the use of lithic building materials in that region of the world was rather wide-spread and utilized by a number of cultural elements, with, to some degree, different applications of technology. This would argue for both the utilization of available resources and the development of stone working skills, with the potential for some of the knowledge derived to be transmitted between or observed by different elements.

Point being, some of the examples of this technology that are held up as evidence of something "incomprehensible" were not created in a vacuum, but are tied to a much broader cultural base that provides a temporal and physical precedent for the technology.

ok, Thanks Swede. i really do wish someone would Duplicate,as exactly as possible, minus the aging, a Large Section of Wall like those at Sacsayhuaman .. just for me.. lol.. so that I could comprehend what i do indeed not comprehend... that being, howdaydoodat? the only explanation i have been offered ,so far , is that the stones were ground into those puffy and perfectly interlinked shapes... i cannot dispute that.. i also can't imagine that.. which doesn't mean anything ,except maybe my imagination is inferior to some others ??? The fact remains.. no one has any Evidence or provable explanation of how the walls were constructed ... that is why i thought it might be ok to include it in a site for Unexplained Mysteries. Maybe it's no big deal.. there they are.. someone did it somehow... move on. love, lightlyy