Frisland – not mythical but submarine?

[Abramelin]

Interesting Abramelin... sorry you lost your info! ( My link works for me.. maybe it's because it was downloaded on this computer ? ... It was a rather large file/image over 500kb. First time i've tried using the My link thingy.)

Anyway.. your info says the deep end of the porcupine seabright is 3000 metres deep .. and whether the features are Ravines or Ancient rivers they would have been formed on dry land ! right? Which means,at that spot, sea levels have risen 3000 meters.. or the land has sunk 3000 meters.. or a combination of both. Which seems to blow conventional thinking on seal level changes out of the water?

No, they would not have to be formed on dry land. That was what I have been trying to explain in earlier posts.

And the Porcupine Seabight is ancient. It's not that it just sunk around 1500 AD.... Add like 3 or more zero's, change AD in BC, and you're there.

You yourself posted a map of "Zealandia", the plateau on which New Zealnd is located. It was above sea level once, yes, but like 26 millions of years ago. And it was not because of rising sea levels that it sank.

.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

No, they would not have to be formed on dry land. That was what I have been trying to explain in earlier posts.

And the Porcupine Seabight is ancient. It's not that it just sunk around 1500 AD.... Add like 3 or more zero's, change AD in BC, and you're there.

You yourself posted a map of "Zealandia", the plateau on which New Zealnd is located. It was above sea level once, yes, but like 26 millions of years ago. And it was not because of rising sea levels that it sank.

.

OK, thanks. i guess the rivers/ravines just LOOK like features that formed on dry land? Your saying that they were formed by Ice Water flowing into the sea . I'll hush up now.. this isn't helping Riaan solve the mystery of Frisland ?

Edited July 26, 2010 by lightly

[Riaan]

Alas, this one is too tiny (it will cost you 30 dollars to see it in full, jeesh):

For the sake of this discussion, I will purchase this map. Can you please forward me the link?

BTW, your later post on the Porcupine Seabight already confirms the less accurate Encarta map.

How do you know? Intuition? "Common Sense"? Because you have a Degree in Oceanography?

Very common sense.

[Abramelin]

For the sake of this discussion, I will purchase this map. Can you please forward me the link?

BTW, your later post on the Porcupine Seabight already confirms the less accurate Encarta map.

Very common sense.

No Riaan, I didn't save the link to the site I got the tiny image from. But if you double-click on the image itself, this is what you get:

http://jgs.lyellcollection.org/content/vol163/issue5/images/small/05079-1.gif

Maybe that will help you further.

And you won't believe how frustrating today was: I have been looking for hours for really excellent sea floor images of the Porcupine Seabight, and found some stunning images and even animations.

....just to loose it all..except what I had already saved and posted today.

Maybe you try again, and use "Celtic Shelf" and "soundings" or "bathymetric". Sorry, my eyes are watering now, lol.

This is what I found just now, but it's not as good as what I found earlier:

http://www.eu-seased.net/welcome_flash.html

http://www.eu-seased.net/frameset_flash.asp?v0=2

Geological Survey of Ireland: http://www.gsi.ie/

https://jetstream.gsi.ie/iwdds/index.html

-

What I also found out about the Porcupine Seabight is that is very old, and no way was it above water during the time humans lived on earth.

I also hope you read about what cold water flows can do with the deep sea floor.

[Alewyn]

[quote

On the second page of this thread Alewyn mentions rivers visible on some map of the sea floor around the Faroe Islands.

I haven't seen that map, but I would not be surprized that what he saw on that map were valleys created by glaciers.

Here is what I made of Frisland (a.k.a Frislant, Frislanda) around the Faroe Islands. Please note that I have no proof that this could be linked to the Oera Linda Book's "Altland" or "Atland" nor to "Atlantis".

Figure 1 is Frisland on Zeno's Map

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure33-1.jpg

Figure 2 is Frisland projected onto a satellite image of the sea floor. I had to adjust the scale and rotate Frisland 19 degrees clockwise.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure34.jpg

Figure 3 Frisland + Satellite image + Contours

Here I took some licence and adjusted some of Frisland's southern coastline to match the contours. (From east of Bill Baily Bank to "Sorand"). The rest of the outline was not adjusted. Nevertheless, see how "Perlanda" match Rosemary bank; Frisland's contours around Bill Bailey Bank (@ "Venai"); the "Sudero Golfo" at "Sanestol": the bay at "Godmee" in the Faroe Bank Channel just north of the Wyville Thompson Ridge, etc.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure362.jpg

Not two of the old maps (Zeno, Mercator, Lafreri, etc.) are the same, but there are pronounced similarities which make it possible to take some 'educated" gueses.

In my book I also give a possible geological explanation as to what caused the submergence of Frisland. It has nothing to do with rising sea levels and all to do with tectonic plate movements between th Eurasian and the North American plates - but that is another discussion altogether.

I would like to place better quality pictures here from photobucket and also for them to show up with the text. Can somebody please explain it to me slowly.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Alewyn

[Riaan]

Got it.

The basin was formed in Jurassic times, but unless I missed it, they do not refer to the weathering of the basin or the river bed that runs down its centre. No mention of the submarine canyons.

B.M. O'Reilly, F. Hauser, C. Ravaut, P.M. Shannon and P.W. Readman

Crustal thinning, mantle exhumation and serpentinization in the Porcupine Basin,

offshore Ireland: evidence from wide-angle seismic data, Journal of the Geological Society 2006; v. 163; p. 775-787

[Abramelin]

Here is what I made of Frisland (a.k.a Frislant, Frislanda) around the Faroe Islands. Please note that I have no proof that this could be linked to the Oera Linda Book's "Altland" or "Atland" nor to "Atlantis".

Figure 1 is Frisland on Zeno's Map

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure33-1.jpg

Figure 2 is Frisland projected onto a satellite image of the sea floor. I had to adjust the scale and rotate Frisland 19 degrees clockwise.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure34.jpg

Figure 3 Frisland + Satellite image + Contours

Here I took some licence and adjusted some of Frisland's southern coastline to match the contours. (From east of Bill Baily Bank to "Sorand"). The rest of the outline was not adjusted. Nevertheless, see how "Perlanda" match Rosemary bank; Frisland's contours around Bill Bailey Bank (@ "Venai"); the "Sudero Golfo" at "Sanestol": the bay at "Godmee" in the Faroe Bank Channel just north of the Wyville Thompson Ridge, etc.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab28/alewyn123/Chapter%202/Figure362.jpg

Not two of the old maps (Zeno, Mercator, Lafreri, etc.) are the same, but there are pronounced similarities which make it possible to take some 'educated" gueses.

In my book I also give a possible geological explanation as to what caused the submergence of Frisland. It has nothing to do with rising sea levels and all to do with tectonic plate movements between th Eurasian and the North American plates - but that is another discussion altogether.

I would like to place better quality pictures here from photobucket and also for them to show up with the text. Can somebody please explain it to me slowly.

Hi Alewyn,

First: if you want to post a picture here that shows up in your post, you click in reply on the rectangular, left of the envelope. A little screen opens, and you enter the url to your image (of photobucket for instance).

Be sure that when you do that, that your cursor was on the place in your post where you wanted your pic to show up.

But how to post better quality pictures?? You can only post images with certain extensions, like .jpeg or .gif, but not .png.

--

About Friesland Island: have you read what I posted about the Frisian pirates who lived on the Faroe Islands?

And about the similarity between the names of places on Friesland Island and the Faroer?

Btw, now I see what you mean, after viewing your images. There appear to be large areas of Friesland Island that are not covered by the plateau on which the Faroe Islands sit.

But I also believe, like you , from what I read, that it had nothing to do with a rise in sea level that that plateau got submerged, but by a geological process... a process that occurred millions of years ago.

[Abramelin]

Got it.

The basin was formed in Jurassic times, but unless I missed it, they do not refer to the weathering of the basin or the river bed that runs down its centre. No mention of the submarine canyons.

B.M. O'Reilly, F. Hauser, C. Ravaut, P.M. Shannon and P.W. Readman

Crustal thinning, mantle exhumation and serpentinization in the Porcupine Basin,

offshore Ireland: evidence from wide-angle seismic data, Journal of the Geological Society 2006; v. 163; p. 775-787

OK, nice image, with lots of detail.

The most important information you found it about when the basin was formed: in Jurassic times, and that's quite distant in time from the 14th century AD.

Well, and about those ravines/canyons: that's my problem. I had collected like more than a dozen links and lost them all. If it had only been one or two, I would have remembered something of the urls.

Maybe I will have better luck another time... sigh.

[Alewyn]

Hi Alewyn,

About Friesland Island: have you read what I posted about the Frisian pirates who lived on the Faroe Islands?

And about the similarity between the names of places on Friesland Island and the Faroer?

Btw, now I see what you mean, after viewing your images. There appear to be large areas of Friesland Island that are not covered by the plateau on which the Faroe Islands sit.

But I also believe, like you , from what I read, that it had nothing to do with a rise in sea level that that plateau got submerged, but by a geological process... a process that occurred millions of years ago.

Thanks Abe. Yes, I have read those - very thought provoking.

I am trying to put a larger image here so that you may have more detail. Here goes:

Ok. It seems to work. Thanks.

Now, if Frisland is mirrored on the contours, then obviously the submergence could not have happened millions of years ago but most likely only a few thousand years ago.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Alewyn

[Abramelin]

Thanks Abe. Yes, I have read those - very thought provoking.

I am trying to put a larger image here so that you may have more detail. Here goes:

Ok. It seems to work. Thanks.

Now, if Frisland is mirrored on the contours, then obviously the submergence could not have happened millions of years ago but most likely only a few thousand years ago.

I think you meant "700 year ago". The Zeno brothers visited Friesland Island in the 14th century.

And you had to rotate Friesland Island to be anything close to the shape of the Faroe Islands, with large areas that don't seem to fit.

You don't know this, but I tried the same thing with Dogger Island, and although I don't have an image to show, but it was close. But my problem was that Dogger Island submerged around 5000 BC. Check this link: http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5803/dogger.png

About that name, "Friesland Island".

My country is officially called, "The Netherlands". But because the people in the western part, Holland, roamed the seas far and wide, The Netherlands were being called "Holland". Of course these people were asked where they came from, and they will have answered with "Holland".

Now, íf you ever again visit The Netherlands, and go to Friesland, then don't say during a conversation something like, "Hey, but you live in Holland?" They will fall silent, and then finally tell you, "No, we live in The Netherlands".

And again, Friesland Island was given that name because the Frisian pirates give it that name.

No need for me to distort ancient maps and talk about sunken lands: nothing sunk, the area we are talking about just changed names.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

I think you meant "700 year ago". The Zeno brothers visited Friesland Island in the 14th century.

And you had to rotate Friesland Island to be anything close to the shape of the Faroe Islands, with large areas that don't seem to fit.

You don't know this, but I tried the same thing with Dogger Island, and although I don't have an image to show, but it was close. But my problem was that Dogger Island submerged around 5000 BC. Check this link: http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5803/dogger.png

About that name, "Friesland Island".

My country is officially called, "The Netherlands". But because the people in the western part, Holland, roamed the seas far and wide, The Netherlands were being called "Holland". Of course these people were asked where they came from, and they will have answered with "Holland".

Now, íf you ever again visit The Netherlands, and go to Friesland, then don't say during a conversation something like, "Hey, but you live in Holland?" They will fall silent, and then finally tell you, "No, we live in The Netherlands".

And again, Friesland Island was given that name because the Frisian pirates give it that name.

No need for me to distort ancient maps and talk about sunken lands: nothing sunk, the area we are talking about just changed names.

Just forget it.

[Qoais]

Can't you just click on your "history" icon Abe? Your computer stores all the addresses where you've been.

[Abramelin]

Can't you just click on your "history" icon Abe? Your computer stores all the addresses where you've been.

Heh, I have set it on "Delete history" as soon as I close my browser.

But in fact it's not that important. We (and certainly me) were going off topic for pages, the topic being "Friesland Island, not mythical but submarine".

And Alewyn wants me to forget about that too, so here I am, busy forgetting, lol.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Heh, I have set it on "Delete history" as soon as I close my browser.

But in fact it's not that important. We (and certainly me) were going off topic for pages, the topic being "Friesland Island, not mythical but submarine".

And Alewyn wants me to forget about that too, so here I am, busy forgetting, lol.

now that's easy. my memory is set on delete history whenever i stop thinking about something.

[Riaan]

Well, and about those ravines/canyons: that's my problem.

It would be very convenient simply to ignore this little problem!

[Abramelin]

It would be very convenient simply to ignore this little problem!

The problem being: I had collected lots of info only to loose it again; don't quote only part of what I said just to suggest I evaded your point.

But I didn't ignore it; I have explained those ravines, and they don't need to have been rivers formed on dry land.

And even if they did (I haven't found any scientific study even suggesting that they did), then it must have happened many millions of years ago.

-

Back to what I tried to explain concerning those rivers/ravines/canyons.

Publication details

Ó Cofaigh, C. & Evans, D.J.A. 2007. Radiocarbon constraints on the age of the maximum advance of the British-Irish Ice Sheet in the Celtic Sea. Quaternary Science

"The Irish Sea Till was deposited by the Irish Sea Ice Stream during its last advance into the Celtic Sea. We present 26, stratigraphically well constrained, new AMS radiocarbon dates on glacially transported marine shells from the Irish Sea Till in southern Ireland, which constrain the maximum age of this advance. The youngest of these dates indicate that the BIIS advanced to its overall maximum limit in the Celtic Sea after 26,000–20,000 14Cyr BP, thus during the last glaciation. The most extensive phase of BIIS growth therefore appears to have occurred during the LGM, at least along the Celtic Sea and Irish margins. These data further demonstrate that the uppermost inland glacial tills, from the area of supposed ‘‘older drift’’ in southern Ireland, a region previously regarded as having been unglaciated during the LGM also date from the last glaciation."

http://www.dur.ac.uk/geography/research/groups_and_clusters/?mode=pdetail&pdetail=48740

I hope you do get my point now.

.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Riaan]

The problem being: I had collected lots of info only to loose it again; don't quote only part of what I said just to suggest I evaded your point.

But I didn't ignore it; I have explained those ravines, and they don't need to have been rivers formed on dry land.

And even if they did (I haven't found any scientific study even suggesting that they did), then it must have happened many millions of years ago.

-

Back to what I tried to explain concerning those rivers/ravines/canyons.

I hope you do get my point now.

Yes, I did sort of miss it the first time. In my opinion, though, there is no way that an ice sheet covering the entire basin could have carved out something that looks 100% like a river bed. If this river bed was formed millions of years ago as you suggest, it would imply that the submarine canyons were formed at the same time. That would in turn imply that the turbidity current theory is nonsense.

[Abramelin]

Yes, I did sort of miss it the first time. In my opinion, though, there is no way that an ice sheet covering the entire basin could have carved out something that looks 100% like a river bed. If this river bed was formed millions of years ago as you suggest, it would imply that the submarine canyons were formed at the same time. That would in turn imply that the turbidity current theory is nonsense.

I was suggesting that this area was above land many. many millions of years ago, and long before man walked the earth.

Tectonic processes - those that are still busy widening the Atlantic Ocean - made that area sink to its present depth.

--

On the other hand, the Porcupine Seabight area may have been at the edge of the ice sheet that covered Ireland and the UK during the last ice age.

The glaciers that protruded into the ocean carried lots of gravel and bolders.

The melting of those glaciers, as soon as those glaciers entered the warm Gulf Stream, caused the dropping of the gravel and boulders on a area that gently sloped towards the deep abyss bordering the Celtic Shelf.

Once a path is carved out, the rest will carve it out deeper, and you will get your 'river beds' on the sea floor.

--

It's either one or the other, but you are suggesting that the sea level dropped like 4000 meters.

I know you stick desparately to your idea that this area was above sealevel in human times.

I don't know why you are so convinced, but *I* am convinced you are wrong.

Now, just show me a scientific document that explains these 'rivers', rivers that existed during the time man walked the earth (according to you/ or maybe even as recent as, say, 10,000 BC).

Look Riaan, it's not just you and me and Lightly who saw these 'rivers', many others will have seen them too on the maps they encountered on the www. Why is it that only you think that these 'rivers' must have been created when our ancestors were there to watch it happen??

.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Riaan]

Why is it that only you think that these 'rivers' must have been created when our ancestors were there to watch it happen??

Good observation! Yes, I am clinging to this idea, but not because of the 'river bed' only. It is linked to my theory about Atlantis, images below (you may have seen it posted long ago). The plateau region (of my Atlantis) is now about 4000m below sea level. We should probably not discuss Atlantis here, but to me the correlation between the Schoner 1515 map and the sea floor as indicated cannot be coincidence. Some have commented that they see no correlation whatsoever.

The map and mountains on the Schoner map actually agree wuite well with Australia and a filled-up lake (lots of rain). The latter is precisely where the Schoner map indicated it to be.

What do you think?

[Abramelin]

I don't care about that.

Stay on topic.

You can't explain all this, so you just pull out another rabbit from your high hat.

Explain why you think you are right and I am wrong about Friesland Island, and the Porcupine Seabight.

I think you are desparate and lost for arguments.

Distorting ancient charts to your convenience won't help you.

.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Riaan]

I don't care about that.

Stay on topic.

You did ask, but I agree, we'll stay oin the topic here.

[Abramelin]

You did ask, but I agree, we'll stay oin the topic here.

What did I ask?

Ah, this is what I asked:

Now, just show me a scientific document that explains these 'rivers', rivers that existed during the time man walked the earth (according to you/ or maybe even as recent as, say, 10,000 BC).

.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Siara]

I've never heard of this before... how bizarre. Is there any chance that Frisland could be a gigantic iceberg (frozen land)? This Zeno map was drawn during the medieval "little ice age".

[Siara]

Frisland and surrounding islands

Boy, it's an AWFULLY close match, isn't it? Supposedly there's an ancient map of Antarctica showing the actual coastline beneath all the ice. I guess if someone actually had access to that information they could also have access to this information. The sea was a lot lower during the Ice Age but this part of the world would have been under miles of glacial ice at that time.

In some was the western coast of Frisland matches Iceland so closely it's difficult to believe it isn't two depictions of the same coast with and without ice. The bay marked Sanefiol (or whatever that says) is pretty near the bay between Akranes and Reykjavik.

I wonder if the 14th century maps could be a composite of several different maps including an ancient traditional maps from that part of the world? How fascinating.

[jmccr8]

Hello Abramelin,

I was just wondering,as most references to the ice age seem to follow what occured after the last one.When I was reading an article a few years ago at the doctors office about the extinction of the mega-beasts in N.America.The article indicated that there have been 13-16?ice ages in history.It would be interesting to see if they all happened in the same geographical areas or if there were other areas of the planet were affected due to the status of the earths condition at that time.jmccr8