Child-bride, 12, dies in Yemen

[Bill Hill]

It is FA to do with Islam and all to do with the country.

Is though? 99% of population follow Islam.

I gave you a choice earlier..

The problem is either the tribal system or Islam, ok perhaps a combination of both.

They seem synonymous with each other.

I presume when you're blaming the country, you're not blaming the rocks, dirt, flora and fauna.

And you are saying one religion is better than another despite the fact that the two are extremely similar.

Never said that at all,

I said the concept 'ideal' of Jesus Christ (philosophically speaking) is better than the concept 'ideal' of Mohammed. It ain't rocket science.

It's totally irrelevant, whether either actually physically existed.

It's concept which exists- detailed in both the bible and Koran.

No I'm saying it was normal practice 1500 years but clearly that bit of information seems to difficult for you digest.

er you didn't just post than 'randomly' but actually posted it in defense of Mohammed's marriage to a six year old.

as in "weren't just him, others did it..." you also added 'beside we can't judge history using modern standards it's pointless.'

This is, in fact the behaviour of what we call an 'apologist.'

It's an apologist argument.

I am not saying anything more or anything less.

Yes you are.

I am purely against religion and science being mixed

yes we've been through that one before.

Don't be so dishonest. You never answered why?

Faith is separate from science because it's an inaccurate-subjective belief system.

And that can get you killed in certain parts of the world, particular Islamic countries for saying that out aloud.

And yes, Christian countries killed people in the past for such a 'crime'; but you're not a great fan of judging history.

So we can forget about it...?

Many good people have died, not for their beliefs but in the pursuit of good science.

In pursuit of Facts.

I have never said such so do not lie

There absolutely no reason to lie, I suggest you raise your debating skills up a level.

Sounds a bit like a school yard at the moment.

Don't tell lies?

[momentarylapseofreason]

I'm talking about girls that were sexually active already. I also have a very attractive, single, 57 year old neighbor, that due to his job is around a lot of teens. They make it absolutely clear to him that he can do what he wants with them. They have even shown up at this door at all hours of the night asking if they can spend the night because they had a fight with their parents. He's shown me some of the notes that they've written to him that even made me blush. Don't underestimate what a teenage girl will do.

Men often seek out much younger women, but rarely do younger women seek out much older men. Look around you.Put another way,if a woman has an array of other quality options closer to her age range, what incentives would she have to date a man 20+ older? Not too many I think.

My cousin is an english teacher in a german high school (Gymnasium)and he is gorgeous! A Jim Morrison/Warren Beatty type, tall dark and handsome with an angelic face but even these girls in Germany are not throwing themselves at him but he certainly gets more attention. He's definitely their favorite (girls).

I'm not seeing it.

What I have been seeing increasingly is older women with much younger men. But this topic is about pre-teenies coerced into marriage with mature men.

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

I just asked my 14 yr. old daughter if any girls in her school or personal friends like much older men. She just looked at my like I lost all my marbles!! The answer is NO.

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Mattshark]

Is though? 99% of population follow Islam.

I gave you a choice earlier..

The problem is either the tribal system or Islam, ok perhaps a combination of both.

They seem synonymous with each other.

So what if the country is 99% Islam, the issue is the country not the national religion. Yes it is the a problem with their culture and they need education to change that.

I presume when you're blaming the country, you're not blaming the rocks, dirt, flora and fauna.

Clearly

Never said that at all,

I said the concept 'ideal' of Jesus Christ (philosophically speaking) is better than the concept 'ideal' of Mohammed. It ain't rocket science.

It's totally irrelevant, whether either actually physically existed.

It's concept which exists- detailed in both the bible and Koran.

If you like.

er you didn't just post than 'randomly' but actually posted it in defense of Mohammed's marriage to a six year old.

as in "weren't just him, others did it..." you also added 'beside we can't judge history using modern standards it's pointless.'

This is, in fact the behaviour of what we call an 'apologist.'

It's an apologist argument.

No it is isn't, it is just how it is are you going to condemn pretty much everyone in historically because by modern moral standards you'd pretty much have too, something that seems pointless to me. By all means condemn Yemen at present though, because there is no real excuse for this (However, betrothed is technically not the same as married).

Yes you are.

No really not.

yes we've been through that one before.

Don't be so dishonest. You never answered why?

Faith is separate from science because it's an inaccurate-subjective belief system.

And that can get you killed in certain parts of the world, particular Islamic countries for saying that out aloud.

And yes, Christian countries killed people in the past for such a 'crime'; but you're not a great fan of judging history.

So we can forget about it...?

Many good people have died, not for their beliefs but in the pursuit of good science.

In pursuit of Facts.

Do you mean where you say I am against other religions but never say anything against Islam? Yeah that is dishonest. I told you what I was against and I pointed out and specific example for you.

Yes that is true in some countries but that is true of fundamentalism in all religions. That is not really the point here (sadly you'll find when science is abused the same thing can happen though as seen with eugenics) and I am opposed to all that..

Faith is separate from science be science should always be kept because science doesn't even pretend to deal with what we cannot measure.

There absolutely no reason to lie, I suggest you raise your debating skills up a level.

Sounds a bit like a school yard at the moment.

Don't tell lies?

Apart from the fact that you did and clearly the fact that your a hypocrite.

[momentarylapseofreason]

So what if the country is 99% Islam, the issue is the country not the national religion. Yes it is the a problem with their culture and they need education to change that.

Clearly

If you like.

No it is isn't, it is just how it is are you going to condemn pretty much everyone in historically because by modern moral standards you'd pretty much have too, something that seems pointless to me. By all means condemn Yemen at present though, because there is no real excuse for this (However, betrothed is technically not the same as married).

No really not.

Do you mean where you say I am against other religions but never say anything against Islam? Yeah that is dishonest. I told you what I was against and I pointed out and specific example for you.

Yes that is true in some countries but that is true of fundamentalism in all religions. That is not really the point here (sadly you'll find when science is abused the same thing can happen though as seen with eugenics) and I am opposed to all that..

Faith is separate from science be science should always be kept because science doesn't even pretend to deal with what we cannot measure.

Apart from the fact that you did and clearly the fact that your a hypocrite.

If course it has something to do with their religion. Please read the Quran and the Hadiths. Muhammad couldn't even keep his fingers off her in the bathtub when she little Aisha was menstruating. She was still playing with her dolls and swinging on her swing. That may explain why she didn't bare children. My sister in law got raped repeatedly by her father as a child and he messed her insides up so much that she can't bare children.(no he wasn't Muslim-had a Christian background)

Fact is Muhammad abused children. It had nothing to do with culture it had everything to do with his private parts and a sick mind. You think his ways has no influence on their bahavior? He the man!! He is precious and holy and good. A great role model for men. How do they rationalize his outrageous behavior and accept this man as holy? Especially today knowing what we know?

Jeez Matt i usually agree with you about everything but not on this religion. a person's beliefs influence their behavior and you know this. It's nice and honorable that you stick up for your Muslim friends but that doesn't have to resort to defending/accepting the tenents of their religion

It's a sexist religion so please also stick up for us women

Now I am mainly condemning Muhammad's behavior according to the writings and the men/women that think he is a wonderful dude and examploratory (spelling?) role model. I can't easily respect people that respect people living or deceased who abuse children or think of women as lesser beings

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Michelle]

I just asked my 14 yr. old daughter if any girls in her school or personal friends like much older men. She just looked at my like I lost all my marbles!! The answer is NO.

If it makes you feel better and you're sure about it that's all that counts.

[momentarylapseofreason]

If it makes you feel better and you're sure about it that's all that counts.

No it doesn't make me feel better. I was a teen once too and lived in a house full of girly teens. I use reason not fantasy. Are you calling my niece and daughter liars?

I believe my daughter more than I believe you

Show me statistics and evidence that alot of teens are attracted to old farts in their 40s, 50' +

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

LOL my daughter just said "that's just creepy!!"

yes, i'm aware that it can and does happen but everything happens.....**** happens

I remember a teen girl doing it with my lovely ex-father in law and he was giving her free speed/meth for it

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

You also don't see stories of most of his life. It was still common practice in that part of the world and within Judaism until about 500 years ago. Not condoning it, putting it into context.

Matt I'm sure you are right but the problem is that it's 2009 and people still adore him/the prophet. How in the world can you think that an all knowing wise god condones pedophilia> And this is what they believe because Muhammad claimed that god/Allah pointed him to Aisha (she was three then in fact). And Muhammad was in love/lust right away with a three year old and god told him go for it!! Now how in the world can I respect someone who thinks this is just okeydokey and worship a god that condones such a hideous act. And men of old knew it was wrong, believe me, common practice doesn't make it right. Just like drinking and driving. There is no good excuse to look up to Muhammad if they believe the story, it is highly immoral in fact, especially today!

Matt i know you don't condone it and you are a good hearted man.

But how can they justify it and their god today? why didn't these supposed gods do the right thing and say "hey buddy this is wrong and very harmful"...............but nooooo..... their/gods were worried about homosexual men that didn't harm anyone

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Michelle]

Men often seek out much younger women, but rarely do younger women seek out much older men. Look around you.Put another way,if a woman has an array of other quality options closer to her age range, what incentives would she have to date a man 20+ older? Not too many I think.

But this topic is about pre-teenies coerced into marriage with mature men.

Reason...money, stability and to get out of mommy and daddy's house so they can do whatever drugs they want...so they think. I am talking mostly addicts here.

No it doesn't make me feel better. I was a teen once too and lived in a house full of girly teens. I use reason not fantasy. Are you calling my niece and daughter liars?

I believe my daughter more than I believe you

Show me statistics and evidence that alot of teens are attracted to old farts in their 40s, 50' +

I don't need statistics, I've personally seen it enough, and no matter how many examples I give you you are going to argue and call me a liar so this off topic conversation is over. Now go ahead and get the last word.

[momentarylapseofreason]

Reason...money, stability and to get out of mommy and daddy's house so they can do whatever drugs they want...so they think. I am talking mostly addicts here.

I don't need statistics, I've personally seen it enough, and no matter how many examples I give you you are going to argue and call me a liar so this off topic conversation is over. Now go ahead and get the last word.

I don't think you lie but I think you exaggerate. Let people here believe what they want. It doesn't matter, everyone has their own stories and experiences. You are the one insinuating that my daughter and niece are fibbing by stating "if it makes you feel better" as if I was a fool for not taking your word for it

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Bill Hill]

So what if the country is 99% Islam, the issue is the country not the national religion. Yes it is the a problem with their culture and they need education to change that.

well their culture is synonymous with Islam.. sharia law etc

So we can blame their culture- but just not their religion? Or the religious part of their culture.

why? because Mattshark said so..

Why has nothing to do with Islam...

Because mattshark backed up his argument with 'because it isn't'

compelling.

Clearly

If you like.

No it is isn't,

Good counter points.

it is just how it is are you going to condemn pretty much everyone in historically because by modern moral standards you'd pretty much have too, something that seems pointless to me.

Not necessary so, you wouldn't have to condemn everyone.. why?

you could even praise people, who via a modern perspective can be vindicated or even praised as being forward thinkers ahead of their time.

By all means condemn Yemen at present though, because there is no real excuse for this (However,betrothed is technically not the same as married).

Why would I condemn a country? Now that really seems pointless.

Let's be more specific- let's get to the root of the problem.

(However,betrothed is technically not the same as married).

Oh thank god for that. I thought he might've been abusing children.

A Betrothal huh? checks wiki

Betrothal (also called espousal) is a formal state of engagement to be married.

Historically betrothal was a formal contract, blessed or officiated by a religious authority. Betrothal was binding as marriage and a divorce was necessary to terminate a betrothal. Betrothed couples were regarded legally as husband and wife - even before their wedding and physical union.

Betrothal is no longer common beyond some Arab cultures, in Judaism and in Islam.

yeah, I sure he waited for the wedding night.. sickening, legalised child abuse.

As pointed out by another poster, a six or nine year can't really ask for a divorce.

Do you mean where you say I am against other religions but never say anything against Islam? Yeah that is dishonest. I told you what I was against and I pointed out and specific example for you.

yeah you told me, but you didn't show me the example.

All you said was, you criticized an Islam creationist for trying trying to mix aspects of his faith into science. wow. what did you say..? 'this is pseudoscientific, his science is wrong'

You also don't see stories of most of his life. It was still common practice in that part of the world and within Judaism until about 500 years ago. Not condoning it, putting it into context.

You're 'putting it into context' still sounds like an apologist's argument.

'see It was practiced by Jews' and 'you don't hear about the rest of his life, the fact that he abused a child, is only small part of his life'

Faith is separate from science be science should always be kept because science doesn't even pretend to deal with what we cannot measure.

It's not a case of pretending, there's nothing to measure (or a complete lack of evidence), because science deals with physical objective reality. The purpose of science is to understand the world in which we live in.

Pray all you want, it was science which took us physically to the moon.

Or as Krato's signature sums it up, a quotation by Victor Stenger

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."

[el midgetron]

No, they mean nothing to me, that's why I'm so hysterically angry.

Did you even take time to read all my posts concerning this thread? Some of you guys sure seem to take this lightly. I notice no sympathy. I see no outrage. And you see no connection.

So you think this has nothing to do with pedophila sanctioned under the cloak of religion?

No, I think this has to do with a girl who died during child birth. You are co-opting (much as the Daily Mail article did) this girls traggic death to attack muslims.

This is precisely what we can do and should do, thanks to science, logic and rationality we can progress and move on.

what are suggesting we do? Judge him in his own time frame using the average mentality of the time?

er in that case, yes he is indeed a magical Prophet, with special magical powers and Allah is real, yep everything's magic.

Or..do we take a modern rationalist perspective; then yes he is indeed, a pedophile with deep deep-rooted psychological problems. Possibly schizophrenic with psychopathic tendencies.

why?

It's how we progress. What? are saying slavery was right 200 yrs ago but wrong now,

Or it's just wrong, full stop.

Or "Ohh I don't know, better not judge, it's pointless, I think?"

I thought you were taking the "science" route? Are you suggesting that "science" freed the slaves? Cause the funny thing is, just over 100 years after the slaves were freed, science was cooking up ways to keep black populations down. Its called eugenics, look Margaret Sanger up.

Religion isn't spotless but neither is science.

Actually I'm fighting religious ignorance and human delusion, you're just defending it to be politically correct.

Science, logic and rationalism are the way forward. Not being 'nice' or pretending to respect the irrational.

So were the crusaders and conquistadors......

And the "science" angle again? The holocaust is thanks to science. Trying to create a "master race" is thanks to science. Exposing ringworm children to leathal doses of radiation is thanks to science. Building weapons that more effectively kill people is thanks to science. Global warming (of the man-made type, if you believe in that ) is thanks to science.

I am not a very religious person, I don't identify with any perticular religion. However, religion in some form or another has gotten us this far. The big three have gotten us through 2 centurys, as imperfect as they might have been. Do I think "science" at its current pace can get us that far? Highely unlikely. No matter where you look, science and technology are the leading causes for the possible destruction of the human race and or earth.

Edited September 16, 2009 by el midgetron

[momentarylapseofreason]

No, I think this has to do with a girl who died during child birth. You are co-opting (much as the Daily Mail article did) this girls traggic death to attack muslims.

I thought you were taking the "science" route? Are you suggesting that "science" freed the slaves? Cause the funny thing is, just over 100 years after the slaves were freed, science was cooking up ways to keep black populations down. Its called eugenics, look Margaret Sanger up.

Religion isn't spotless but neither is science.

So were the crusaders and conquistadors......

And the "science" angle again? The holocaust is thanks to science. Trying to create a "master race" is thanks to science. Exposing ringworm children to leathal doses of radiation is thankshttp://richarddawkins.net/article,1807,Whats-Good-About-Religion,Pat-Condell to science. Building weapons that more effectively kill people is thanks to science. Global warming (of the man-made type, if you believe in that ) is thanks to science.

I am not a very religious person, I don't identify with any perticular religion. However, religion in some form or another has gotten us this far. The big three have gotten us through 2 centurys, as imperfect as they might have been. Do I think "science" at its current pace can get us that far? Highely unlikely. No matter where you look, science and technology are the leading causes for the possible destruction of the human race and or earth.

Pat always sums it up best!! Here is a retort to your claims about religion

No I'm attacking a sexist, pedophilic, infidel hating male cult

After all two working hands accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Yes it is the a problem with their culture

Yes. Islamic culture.

[momentarylapseofreason]

Yes. Islamic culture.

Exactly! Watch Brigittte Gabriel here this explains alot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeg-e_qK4HI&feature=related

We must all face the unpleasant reality on this and stop the name calling with people who are only bringing us unpleasant news. We must face the reality that Islamic violence, deception, intolerance of other beliefs, are all rooted in the Quran.

It is what it is.

Anyone who gets their "information about Islam" from actual Muslims isn't too bright

It's best to go to an ex-Muslim forum or read books written by ex-Muslims and by reading the Quran/Hadiths yourself

That is so true and applies to practically every belief presented as fact. Believers are rarely objective about their own dogmas.

Yes, we should be tolerant- but not of everything.

Edited September 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Mattshark]

Yes. Islamic culture.

No Yemenese culture. If it was Islam you would see this in all Islamic countries and you do not.

[Bill Hill]

No Yemenese culture. If it was Islam you would see this in all Islamic countries and you do not.

See what exactly? we see Sharia law.

Here's a link for you, a nice PC explanation of Sharia law, and it still looks primitive, suppressive and irrational.

BBC Sharia law explained

[Bill Hill]

I thought you were taking the "science" route? Are you suggesting that "science" freed the slaves? Cause the funny thing is, just over 100 years after the slaves were freed,

Nah I was using slavery as an example for how can use a modern perspective to look back at history and realise- it's wrong.

Matt was saying it's completely pointless to judge history using a modern perspective.

science was cooking up ways to keep black populations down. Its called eugenics, look Margaret Sanger up.

Eugenics, a far too controversial subject for this board? Every time I've seen a thread about it, it gets shut down.

Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution..

We've done to animals such a domestic farm animals and the wolf to create pet dogs.

I guess when it comes to humans in the UK, imo we've deployed a system based on the opposite to eugenics; where the stupid are encouraged to breed- because nothing can stop em. Chavs anyone?

Again making a observation, I haven't really given it much thought cause I can't at the moment see a future where it would be relevant.

Religion isn't spotless but neither is science.

Agreed, but which would you prefer to use to explain our reality?

Science or religion?

So were the crusaders and conquistadors.....

yep a case can be made for and against.

However, religion in some form or another has gotten us this far. The big three have gotten us through 2 centurys, as imperfect as they might have been. Do I think "science" at its current pace can get us that far? Highely unlikely.possible destruction of the human race and or earth. [/size][/size][/size][/size]

I think the problem is 'people' not science.

Sure, in the past religion, acted as a unifier say to unite the tribes in a population.

But taking your points as a whole -It's like you're saying science is too dangerous for people, therefor they should follow and be controlled by a religion in order to save the planet?'

Sure, we're imo most likely heading towards our own extinction- it's going to be close

but give me science to explain reality any day over made-made mumbo jumbo.

Might as well believe in Lord of the rings or or Star wars.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Bill Hill

[el midgetron]

Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution..

We've done to animals such a domestic farm animals and the wolf to create pet dogs.

I guess when it comes to humans in the UK, imo we've deployed a system based on the opposite to eugenics; where the stupid are encouraged to breed- because nothing can stop em. Chavs anyone?

Yeah, that might be a problem but I think its more of a larger cultural problem than one of just science or religion alone.

Maybe we could use science to identify and eliminate people who shouldn't breed and use religion to get people to stop having sex outside of marriage and stone to death those that resist?

You ever see Idiocracy? -

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2682654/idiocracy_opening_sequence/

"BRAWNDO, THE THIRST MUTILATOR"

Agreed, but which would you prefer to use to explain our reality?

Science or religion?

Scientology. It has the best of both science and religion

I dunno. Its a tough choice really, I am glad we have both. Religion never developed freeze-dried foods or cell phones but science as far as I know has never discovered a reason why killing someone is morally wrong (eh, maybe it isn't?).

[Mekorig]

Mattshark, apparently the one who make the Wikipedia translation made a mistake. 13 it is not the age of conscent. Anyone having sex with a 13 years old, be either sex, have penalties, anyone having sex with a 16 years old by means of abuse also have the same penalties, or by tricking out a 18 years old girl. 18 and up are free to have sex.

Belive me, i have the Penal Law Code with me, i have to use at least once a week.

[Bill Hill]

You ever see Idiocracy?

Nah, I've not heard about it, Looks brilliant though. Now that's what I'm talking about

I'll downlo... er buy a copy of the film asap.

Scientology. It has the best of both science and religion

Scientology. LOGY- to study of

Science. The study of science.

On paper it looks ok.

It's just a shame it's nothing to do with science; just another cult, full of brain-washed deluded freaks with more money than sense.

er imo.

I dunno. Its a tough choice really, I am glad we have both. Religion never developed freeze-dried foods or cell phones but science as far as I know has never discovered a reason why killing someone is morally wrong (eh, maybe it isn't?).

I don't know, the lack of evidence in support of an after life, seems to me to suggest there isn't one. boo... looks like it's oblivion. So I take death or murder very seriously..

you're possibly most likely sending someone to oblivion.

Where religion offers the comfort of an after life.

When you see a bunch of flowers by the side of the street, where some gangsta been murdered... it's usually accompanied by placards saying 'Another fallen soldier, you're in heaven now'

I think nah, you're in oblivion.

They don't mind killing each other, because they're all going to magic land.

[Mattshark]

Mattshark, apparently the one who make the Wikipedia translation made a mistake. 13 it is not the age of conscent. Anyone having sex with a 13 years old, be either sex, have penalties, anyone having sex with a 16 years old by means of abuse also have the same penalties, or by tricking out a 18 years old girl. 18 and up are free to have sex.

Belive me, i have the Penal Law Code with me, i have to use at least once a week.

Fair enough mate, just going by what they say on the site.

[Mattshark]

See what exactly? we see Sharia law.

Here's a link for you, a nice PC explanation of Sharia law, and it still looks primitive, suppressive and irrational.

BBC Sharia law explained

I know what it is. I do not support it as an idea, but Yemen's law is Yemen interpretation and it is not a commonality in Islamic nations.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Mattshark

[odas]

You really don't think here do you.

You are confusing a religion with a nation. Do you think all countries where Islam is the main religion have low ages of consent or marriage age?

18 in Egypt

16 Algeria

Indonesia 19 for men, 16 for women, 18 for homosexuals.

Malaysia 16

Pakistan 18 men 16 women

UAE 18

Maldives 18

Tajikistan 17

Turkey 18

Uzbekistan 16

Turkmenistan 16

Kazhakstan 18

Kyrgyzstan 16

Alabania 14

Bosnia Herzegovina 14

First, I feel very sorry for this child.

Second, the tradition to marry children predates Islam ( which is not an excuse and needs to be banned ).

Third, Bosnia has raised the consent to 16.

Fourth, Islam needs an overhaul in religious aspects as Turkey and Bosnia are pushing for.