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Chauncy

Archeological Suppression in New Zealand

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Stixxman
Here's what I wonder..Reporting on OOPARTS or out of place cultural sites in the US would help nullify at least some Native American land claims. And you know when they win land back it's tax free. So why wouldn't our Government leap to verify these things as factual?

177195[/snapback]

They do nothing because with the situation they have now there is a separation of opinion which is good for those in power. They want as many different groups of special interest as they can get. Divide and conquer baby. If we were all on the same page here it would make it very difficult to control the masses. They will do anything to maintain the status quo. no.gifno.gifno.gifno.gifno.gif

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marduk
Here's what I wonder..Reporting on OOPARTS or out of place cultural sites in the US would help nullify at least some Native American land claims. And you know when they win land back it's tax free. So why wouldn't our Government leap to verify these things as factual?

177195[/snapback]

They do nothing because with the situation they have now there is a separation of opinion which is good for those in power. They want as many different groups of special interest as they can get. Divide and conquer baby. If we were all on the same page here it would make it very difficult to control the masses. They will do anything to maintain the status quo. no.gifno.gifno.gifno.gifno.gif

607012[/snapback]

this was solved since then right

wasn't it a caucasian mummy they found and the reason for the secrecy was that in light of the nations current racial unrest they didn't want the fact that caucasoids were there first to be just another chant in the neo fascists chant arsenal

or something like that

w00t.gifw00t.gif

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wyliecelt

I have had run ins with New Zealand archeologists too especially a guy by the name of Edward, who also are very arrogant and seem more annoyed that we are untrained but stepping in THEIR territory and have no place doing so until we have spent years gaining qualifications as they have. The problem is if officialdom is hiding things the information included in their oh so mighty tertiary education and study will also NOT include the embargoed information.

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Professor Buzzkill

I wonder why the "facts" are hidden, or at least not discussed. It seems that the white (pakeha) new zealanders (of which i am one) seem to be afraid of hurting the feelings of the Maori. I don't know why its so important who was here first, it doesn't change what we have now

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Mattshark

I wonder why the "facts" are hidden, or at least not discussed. It seems that the white (pakeha) new zealanders (of which i am one) seem to be afraid of hurting the feelings of the Maori. I don't know why its so important who was here first, it doesn't change what we have now

When it is in the junk book of Forbidden Archaeology, you can generally assume it is rubbish and is just made up.

Though why Wyliecelt felt the need to open a thread that has been dead for 5 years is beyond me

Edited by Mattshark

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Professor Buzzkill

When it is in the junk book of Forbidden Archaeology, you can generally assume it is rubbish and is just made up.

Though why Wyliecelt felt the need to open a thread that has been dead for 5 years is beyond me

But there are in fact strange artifacts (whomever created them) where the Department of Conservation is suppressing there whereabouts (i.e standing stones, walls, spheres). Maybe for "environmental" reasons (i.e not disturbing the endangered "insert species here")

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lightly

But there are in fact strange artifacts (whomever created them) where the Department of Conservation is suppressing there whereabouts (i.e standing stones, walls, spheres). Maybe for "environmental" reasons (i.e not disturbing the endangered "insert species here")

Professor, As a New Zealander, could you tell us if tales of light skinned inhabitants , pre -dating the

Maori , are common to them?

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The Puzzler

Professor, As a New Zealander, could you tell us if tales of light skinned inhabitants , pre -dating the

Maori , are common to them?

Ýes, they are called Patupaiarehe and were even put on a stamp.

Do you know they even think the New Zealand Tiki is actually a form of Bes, as is the Haka originally done close to the ground with bulging eyes in a dwarf stature and tongue poking out as a representation of Bes, Egyptian God of mothers and children.

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The Puzzler

Patupaiarehe.jpg

A New Zealand stamp attempts to portray, in surrealist imagery, the pre-Maori Patu-paiarehe people, now all-too-conveniently relegated to the realm of myth and legend. Large pockets of the pre-Maori European tribes, who were the long-term inhabitants of New Zealand, still survived into early colonial times and the first colonial accounts called them the "Pakeha Maoris" (white skinned Maoris) who lived inland. The Patu-paiarehe individual shown plays a carved putorino flute and wears a piupiu skirt, adorned with the very Celtic or Pictish-looking design-work that parallels the design-work now found in Maori culture. All or most aspects of Maori culture, including associated symbolism and taonga (treasures), were taken from the Patu-paiarehe, as the spoils of war or conquest (muru-plunder). It is now considered to be Maori in design origin, but is, in fact, ancient European.

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.celticnz.org/images/KoruPA/Patupaiarehe.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Koru%2520PA2.htm&h=500&w=370&sz=38&tbnid=Yvrslw4ANA61YM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPatupaiarehe&usg=__LbXp0imQdq_6_p4ZkW-TkSyr6EE=&ei=BYy1S820NsH68AbhoOxp&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBMQ9QEwAw

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SlimJim22

I heard about stone cirlces that were pushed into rivers or sea by government bull dozers. Any truth to this?

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lightly

ah.. thanks Puzz.. i thought it was fairly common knowledge to the Maori that there were light skinned inhabitants already living there upon their arrival.

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aquatus1
But there are in fact strange artifacts (whomever created them) where the Department of Conservation is suppressing there whereabouts (i.e standing stones, walls, spheres). Maybe for "environmental" reasons (i.e not disturbing the endangered "insert species here")

What do you mean by supressing? Anyone with an internet link hears about these anomalies.

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Leonardo

A New Zealand stamp attempts to portray, in surrealist imagery, the pre-Maori Patu-paiarehe people, now all-too-conveniently relegated to the realm of myth and legend. Large pockets of the pre-Maori European tribes, who were the long-term inhabitants of New Zealand, still survived into early colonial times and the first colonial accounts called them the "Pakeha Maoris" (white skinned Maoris) who lived inland. The Patu-paiarehe individual shown plays a carved putorino flute and wears a piupiu skirt, adorned with the very Celtic or Pictish-looking design-work that parallels the design-work now found in Maori culture. All or most aspects of Maori culture, including associated symbolism and taonga (treasures), were taken from the Patu-paiarehe, as the spoils of war or conquest (muru-plunder). It is now considered to be Maori in design origin, but is, in fact, ancient European.

Because, of course, the Maori couldn't possibly have come up with simple geometric designs on their own due to their dark skin, right?

This is not a pop at you, Puz, but at the source you posted. It is indicative of the bigotry inherent in such "the dark-skinned natives could only copy the white man" ideas.

Maori art (and symbology) resembles, and is derived from, the art and symbology of their Polynesian ancestors. We can see similar designs and motifs in Fijian art, Samoan art, etc, etc.

Of course, you could conclude that ancient Celts originally inhabited ALL the islands of the Pacific, and therefore all the various Polynesian groups copied this art and symbology from prior indigenous (white) inhabitants. :rolleyes:

Edited by Leonardo

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The Puzzler

Because, of course, the Maori couldn't possibly have come up with simple geometric designs on their own due to their dark skin, right?

This is not a pop at you, Puz, but at the source you posted. It is indicative of the bigotry inherent in such "the dark-skinned natives could only copy the white man" ideas.

Maori art (and symbology) resembles, and is derived from, the art and symbology of their Polynesian ancestors. We can see similar designs and motifs in Fijian art, Samoan art, etc, etc.

Of course, you could conclude that ancient Celts originally inhabited ALL the islands of the Pacific, and therefore all the various Polynesian groups copied this art and symbology from prior indigenous (white) inhabitants. :rolleyes:

There is plenty of websites and discussion about it all, you might Google, probably could find a better one that maybe didn't give you that feeling. They find numerous skeleton piles in New Zealand and the Maoris won't claim them, they state they are 'strangers' and not Maori, of course they could be from the terrible wars that went on between the English and Maori but they are often referred to by the Maori and being the people who were there when they themselves arrived.

If nothing else the comparison of the Tiki to Bes was an eye opener.

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The Puzzler

What do you mean by supressing? Anyone with an internet link hears about these anomalies.

http://www.kilts.co.nz/citylibrary.htm

The book was even suppressed from the Library.

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Professor Buzzkill

I heard about stone cirlces that were pushed into rivers or sea by government bull dozers. Any truth to this?

Well there were clusters of large stone spheres, with worn inscriptions, found at the top of hills near where i am, and these were removed and damaged for a new highway. Heres a picture post-79582-127026297542_thumb.jpg,

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Abramelin

I have done a bit of Googling because I only heard some vague stories about this topic.

I found a couple of sites which claimed it was simply impossible that ancient Celts could have sailed the seas and reached New Zealand.

But in the "Bello Gallico" Julius Caesar said he was greatly impressed by the boats built by the Celts (which he saw in the Channel between present day England and France).

These were not like the Irish curraghs, these were big ships, larger than what the Romans had at the time, and capable of long distance travel across the oceans.

I am now not saying that the Celts did indeed visit New Zealand, but only that they had the material and mastery to do it if they had wanted to.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Puzzler

This is the main website for all the NZ based Celtic background info:

http://www.kilts.co.nz/mitancient.htm

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Professor Buzzkill

i also don't know the truth behind who set up standing stones, or moved rounded stones inscribed with pattern to the tops of hills, but it seem that they have been weathered for more then 800 years (which is when the Maori people arrived in NZ). But even the maori stories claim there were people here beforehand, including the "white tribe" which doesn't line up with any history.

And my former Maori teacher who is now a lecturer told us that the first place the moari landed in new zealand they called "returning to the lights" as there were fires visible on the shoreline. Most likely they were Moriori who were forced onto the Chatham islands after being chased off the mainland by Maori. Then they lived peacefully on the Chathams for hundreds of years until a maori raiding party landed and killed and ate the men and took the women as slaves.

But we will never really know who built the stone structure as history is written by the victors.

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Leonardo

If nothing else the comparison of the Tiki to Bes was an eye opener.

Do you believe parallel development is impossible, Puz?

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The Puzzler

Do you believe parallel development is impossible, Puz?

Depends...

Many will tell you the Tiki is Bes...

Most likely the Maori concept of deity Tiki didn't sprout in Maori culture but is derived from an Egyptian god (even more likely from another African country like Somali). This deity is commonly known as the Egyptian god Bes.

Bes was an idolized dwarf god who's functions were to protect pregnant women, children and households. He was also said to be present at births, a birthgiving protector. Bes was a funny, loving god. Ancient legends state that when a baby laughed Bes was somewhere in the chamber making funny faces.

Apart from the "new life" resemblance there are other, aesthetic, similarities between art works of Bes and carvings of the Maori god Tiki who was the creator of life.

Both gods were depicted with hands on hips or upper thighs, bow shaped legs, a round belly, a large head with an open mouth with poking tongue, big goggle shaped eyes, defiant stance, genitalia in sight.

They also both held a similar shaped weapon. In case of Bes this was resembled by the Sa hieroglyph, a weapon and symbol for protection. Tiki was sometimes shown with Maori club, a weapon called Patu or Mere. The shape of both items is very similar. (the Sa hieroglyph and symbol later developed into the Egyptian Ankh which also stands for new life and afterlife.) Apart from the resembling characteristic features of Maori Tiki carvings and Egyptian god Bes depictions there are more clues to the connection between the two.

The Egyptian creation god Ptah, who was also represented as a bow-legged dwarf or fetus, is called 'the opener and in other texts referred to as Pataikos, “the Creator of the world, the sun, and moon, out of chaos (ha), or matter (mu).” Again a resemblance with the Maori Tiki who created the first man after his image and then the first woman out of chaos.

http://maori-jewelry.blogspot.com/2010/02/tiki-maori-version-of-egyptian-god-bes.html

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Leonardo

Depends...

Many will tell you the Tiki is Bes...

Most likely the Maori concept of deity Tiki didn't sprout in Maori culture but is derived from an Egyptian god (even more likely from another African country like Somali). This deity is commonly known as the Egyptian god Bes.

Perhaps whoever wrote that site can advise us of how recently the Maori departed Africa then?

As obviously they were in proximity to the culture in which Bes developed, so the subsequent development of their Tiki could take place from it, yes?

Edited by Leonardo

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Swede

It would appear that some of the posted references re: the Celtic/New Zealand aspect have a less than subtle racial element. In addition, they are highly unscientific. The following addresses some of these factors. While focused on New Zealand archaeology, many of the points presented apply quite well to the broader spectrum of less-than-credible sources.

http://www.nzarchaeology.org/alternative.htm'>http://www.nzarchaeology.org/alternative.htm

This above is a page from the following site, which provides a reasonable overview of current New Zealand archaeological activities.

http://www.nzarchaeology.org/

.

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The Puzzler

Perhaps whoever wrote that site can advise us of how recently the Maori departed Africa then?

As obviously they were in proximity to the culture in which Bes developed, so the subsequent development of their Tiki could take place from it, yes?

No, not necessarily. Trade, movement of people, associations with followers of Bes.

Here is a jstor article tracing Bes into the Archaemenid empire.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4629595

Bes:

Patron of: the home, childbirth, infants, humor, song and dance.

Appearance: A fat bearded dwarf, ugly to the point of being comical. He is often shown sticking out his tongue and holding a rattle. When carved or painted on a wall, he is never shown in profile, but always full-face, almost unique in Egyptian art. There are also depictions of Bes with feline or leonine features.

Description: Bes is a very unusual god. He does not appear to be Egyptian at all, but where he does come from his largely unknown. He resembles gods found in central and southern Africa, and his function is very much like that of the Fool Shaman. Bes was primarily the protector of childbirth. During the birth, Bes would dance about the room, shaking his rattle and yelling to frighten away demons that would otherwise put a curse on the child. After the child was born, Bes would stay by the cradle entertaining the child. When a baby laughed or smiled for no apparent reason, it was believed that Bes was somewhere in the room making funny faces.

Bes' role as demon-queller also extended to driving off mischievous beings that were believed to cause minor misfortune, like tripping people and souring food. Bes was so ugly that even a statue of him would frighten away wicked creatures. Thus, many houses would keep a statue of Bes near the door to guard it.

Worship: Though there are no temples to Bes, and no formal ritual, shrines to him were found in many homes, especially those with children or pregnant women.

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/bes.htm

Edited by The Puzzler

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Spectre1979

Hmmm I live in NZ and will see what I can dig up so to speak.

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