Question: How is Megalodon a cryptid?

[Drago]

Okay, so bear with me.

Megalodon, for those not familiar with current fads, was a massive shark - most scientists place it at or exceeding fifty feet in length at full growth - that existed until roughly around two and a half million years ago, about the end of the Pliocene epoch. For all intents and purposes, Megalodon is imagined by most people, scientists included, as being a massively up-scaled Great White Shark.

It was believed to be a coastal predator, meaning it actively hunted prey in relatively shallow temperate or tropical water close to coastlines. This is believed to have been their downfall; As prey slowly evolved into smaller forms, Megalodon's food sources slowly vanished. It couldn't eat enough of the new smaller prey items to make it worthwhile, and prey that was large enough to sustain them began to move towards the poles, living in colder water that Megalodon couldn't survive in.

Two and a half million years later, in 1997, along comes Steve Alten and his Meg series of novels about Megalodons that survived by living in the hot water at the bottom of massive ocean trenches.

While entertaining in the same vein as the Godzilla movies, much like Godzilla, there were serious flaws with this idea that were overlooked in the name of entertainment. More power to Steve Alten, I don't knock the guy at all for writing an entertaining book. Even if it was predictable in the extreme. So was Godzilla, and it's a classic.

ANYWAY. Enough literary opinion.

After Alten released Meg, there was a sudden surge of interest among cryptid fans as to what happened to Megalodon. It became a fad to posit that Megalodon might have survived in the same way that the Meg in Alten's novel did. Nevermind it wasn't meant to be a scientifically feasible explanation, but just one that set up a story of fiction.

Fast forward to today, where the Megalodon is, somehow, a 'well known cryptid'.

My question is this: How the crap is Meg considered a cryptid? There are no contemporary reports of massive sharks. No weird remains of giant fifty foot sharks. We don't even have blurry photos and bad home movies. There is nothing. Not a shred of even the most questionable evidence that places Megalodon in today's oceans. Just a series of sci-fi books.

How do we go from that to trying to prove Megalodon still exists? Megalodon doesn't even have the luxury of questionable eyewitness accounts. There was, is, and remains no one that claims to have seen Megalodon in contemporary oceans. Yet somehow it keeps coming up in cryptozoological discussion.

Why? It was big, it was mean, it was deadly. It's impressive, yes. But why has 'cryptozoology' chosen to champion the cause of a long-extinct ocean predator when there has never been any kind of indication they survived past the end of the Pliocene?

[667-Neighbor of the Beast]

Okay, so bear with me.

Megalodon, for those not familiar with current fads, was a massive shark - most scientists place it at or exceeding fifty feet in length at full growth - that existed until roughly around two and a half million years ago, about the end of the Pliocene epoch. For all intents and purposes, Megalodon is imagined by most people, scientists included, as being a massively up-scaled Great White Shark.

It was believed to be a coastal predator, meaning it actively hunted prey in relatively shallow temperate or tropical water close to coastlines. This is believed to have been their downfall; As prey slowly evolved into smaller forms, Megalodon's food sources slowly vanished. It couldn't eat enough of the new smaller prey items to make it worthwhile, and prey that was large enough to sustain them began to move towards the poles, living in colder water that Megalodon couldn't survive in.

Two and a half million years later, in 1997, along comes Steve Alten and his Meg series of novels about Megalodons that survived by living in the hot water at the bottom of massive ocean trenches.

While entertaining in the same vein as the Godzilla movies, much like Godzilla, there were serious flaws with this idea that were overlooked in the name of entertainment. More power to Steve Alten, I don't knock the guy at all for writing an entertaining book. Even if it was predictable in the extreme. So was Godzilla, and it's a classic.

ANYWAY. Enough literary opinion.

After Alten released Meg, there was a sudden surge of interest among cryptid fans as to what happened to Megalodon. It became a fad to posit that Megalodon might have survived in the same way that the Meg in Alten's novel did. Nevermind it wasn't meant to be a scientifically feasible explanation, but just one that set up a story of fiction.

Fast forward to today, where the Megalodon is, somehow, a 'well known cryptid'.

My question is this: How the crap is Meg considered a cryptid? There are no contemporary reports of massive sharks. No weird remains of giant fifty foot sharks. We don't even have blurry photos and bad home movies. There is nothing. Not a shred of even the most questionable evidence that places Megalodon in today's oceans. Just a series of sci-fi books.

How do we go from that to trying to prove Megalodon still exists? Megalodon doesn't even have the luxury of questionable eyewitness accounts. There was, is, and remains no one that claims to have seen Megalodon in contemporary oceans. Yet somehow it keeps coming up in cryptozoological discussion.

Why? It was big, it was mean, it was deadly. It's impressive, yes. But why has 'cryptozoology' chosen to champion the cause of a long-extinct ocean predator when there has never been any kind of indication they survived past the end of the Pliocene?

It all falls into the same category as vampires, werewolves, and such. Everytime a book/movie is released, and more than a few people read it, the subject of the book suddenly makes the leap from fantasy to possibility in allot of people minds. At least the meg actually existed at one point in time, unlike the vampires and such that keep getting resurrected. It is just something for people to hang on to, not even a belief, but a hope, that these things could exist. Since they cannot prove these things exist, they end up falling into the category of cryptid.

[seax]

I agree with you...but I think the answer to you question is there are those that 'wish' it to be true and base their faith in 'bad sightings'...misidentified mammals or whale sharks...and the fact that so much of the ocean remains a mystery that Megaladon could have survived. Wishful thinking. My humble opinion and I am by no means an expert...if Megaladon was alive I think someone would have seen one by now...even thought so much of the ocean has not been under our magnifying glass. Too many shipwrecks...blood in the water....and trained eyes for no proof.

best regards,

seax

[+DieChecker]

Fast forward to today, where the Megalodon is, somehow, a 'well known cryptid'.

My question is this: How the crap is Meg considered a cryptid? There are no contemporary reports of massive sharks. No weird remains of giant fifty foot sharks. We don't even have blurry photos and bad home movies. There is nothing. Not a shred of even the most questionable evidence that places Megalodon in today's oceans.

I think it is just the "What if" attitude of many people. I think less people would take a Megalodon sighting seriously then would take a Nessie sighting seriously. Even though the Meg has a larger habitat and fossil evidence behind it.

Personally I think the only Meg enthusists are Photoshop Fan-boys.

[Drago]

My point is, I could understand Megalodon's placement as a cryptid if we were getting reports of giant sharks or the like. I just can't make myself call Megalodon a cryptid - it's just an extinct animal. No reports, no encounters, no evidence at all that can even be attempted to explain. There's just a great big void right where Megalodon sits - and yet it's considered a cryptid?

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong.

Can you tell which thing is not like the others by the time I finish my song?

Bigfoot

Nessie

Jersey Devil

Dover Demon

Megalodon

Mothman

Mongolian Death Worm

The Lizardman of Scape Ore Swamp

The Gevaudun Beast

[catutie]

well i can see why..only cause there is a book on it . our oceans are so vast and unexplored. how did the giant squid escape us for so long and not really many sightings? but we found it anyway. megalodon could just be deep down in the ocean with the giant squid just waiting to be discovered...or refound lol

[Drago]

Megalodon wasn't a 'deep down' kind of fish. Shallow warm water, remember?

[catutie]

yes but it cant live in cold water. so when it got cold it could have moved down to where....um.....its colder down lower...i just realized that i guess its in places we havnt looked or its just not there or it got used to the cold lol

[667-Neighbor of the Beast]

well i can see why..only cause there is a book on it . our oceans are so vast and unexplored. how did the giant squid escape us for so long and not really many sightings? but we found it anyway. megalodon could just be deep down in the ocean with the giant squid just waiting to be discovered...or refound lol

But that is just it. The giant squid has been seen, photographed, and even captured. There is no evidence to support that megalodon still exists. No credible sightings, pics, vids, nothing. Yet, people will argue on the existance of it just because a book gave them the idea that "it might". People get the idea in their head that something "might" be possible, then, somehow, they turn it into it "is" possible. There is absolutely nothing to say that it still exists at all.

[Gigmaster]

There are a few reasons why Megladon could be considered a 'cryptid'.

First off, your timeline is wrong. Current paleological evidence places the final extinction of Megladon from 50,000 to as recent as 10,000 years ago. This is almost within the Human Era. The consensus is that, as we know from fossil evidence, whales and large pinnipeds began to migrate to the polar regions to breed around the end of the last Ice Age, or around 100,000 years ago. The Megladon was a warm-water species (unlike modern White Sharks, which are semi-warm blooded, and prefer cooler waters), and was unable to follow them. So, with it's food supply compromised, and no alternates readily available, Megladon most likely dwindled, and eventually just became extinct. There were also some major geological changes that occured around this time, such as fluctuation of sea level and the general cooling down of the entire planet. This would've no doubt effected their breeding, and been a major contributor to their demise.

Next, there have been some reported sightings of unusually large sharks matchining Megladons probable description, some as recent as 1997.

I don't advocate the existence of modern Megladons, but I am merely giving reasons why they are considered a Cryptid. Actually, out of all the Cryptids I can think of, Megladon(IMO) probably has the second-best chance of actually existing, right after the Tasmanian Wolf.

But the chances for both are very, very slim.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Gigmaster

[Gigmaster]

Nobody has ever captured a live Giant Squid, and we've only got a photograph of a live one within the last year. And no one has ever seen a live Giant Squid in person. Not, and lived to tell about it. (There are only unsubstantiated stories of such)

I am not advocating for Megladon, but let's at least be accurate. I am on your side.

But that is just it. The giant squid has been seen, photographed, and even captured. There is no evidence to support that megalodon still exists. No credible sightings, pics, vids, nothing. Yet, people will argue on the existance of it just because a book gave them the idea that "it might". People get the idea in their head that something "might" be possible, then, somehow, they turn it into it "is" possible. There is absolutely nothing to say that it still exists at all.

[Mattshark]

But that is just it. The giant squid has been seen, photographed, and even captured. There is no evidence to support that megalodon still exists. No credible sightings, pics, vids, nothing. Yet, people will argue on the existance of it just because a book gave them the idea that "it might". People get the idea in their head that something "might" be possible, then, somehow, they turn it into it "is" possible. There is absolutely nothing to say that it still exists at all.

Exactly, the giant squid has also been known for quite some time, it is not like it is a recent discovery.

With Meg all these 'what ifs' go completely against the biology of the animal and the location of its prey. There is no one in shark biology who thinks meg has any chance of still being around.

[Mattshark]

Nobody has ever captured a live Giant Squid, and we've only got a photograph of a live one within the last year. And no one has ever seen a live Giant Squid in person. Not, and lived to tell about it. (There are only unsubstantiated stories of such)

I am not advocating for Megladon, but let's at least be accurate. I am on your side.

No it was well over a year ago since we got a photo. You are looking at about 4 or 5 years ago. We have bodies from over 100 years ago though, it is not new to science in the slightest.

[sam12six]

I think the original point (a point I agree with) is that the only reason people are equating "really big shark" with "surviving Megaladon" is the books/movies.

Put it this way, bigfoot is supposedly a big ape. So was gigantopithecus. Is gigantopithecus a cryptid? No, bigfoot is.

Nessie is supposedly a big aquatic reptile. So were plesiosaurs. Are plesiosaurs cryptids? No, Nessie is.

If there were sightings of really, really big sharks and there had been no Megalodon books or movies, people would be here debating whether the sharks were a result of normal evolution or mutation caused by pollution. There would be no Megalodon in the discussion unless there were some evidence (like a new tooth matching existing Megalodon teeth) that brought it in. Without the books and movies, the normal assumption would be that a very big shark is either a freak example of an existing species or a heretofore undiscovered species, not a resurrected species.

The fact is that the Megalodon books and movies exist. I find it amusing that their existence inspire an entire sub-culture of people who believe Megalodon is living at the bottom of the deep trenches with absolutely no evidence (not even the "sightings" other cryptids get).

[GreatFenris]

There are a few reasons why Megladon could be considered a 'cryptid'.

First off, your timeline is wrong. Current paleological evidence places the final extinction of Megladon from 50,000 to as recent as 10,000 years ago. This is almost within the Human Era. The consensus is that, as we know from fossil evidence, whales and large pinnipeds began to migrate to the polar regions to breed around the end of the last Ice Age, or around 100,000 years ago. The Megladon was a warm-water species (unlike modern White Sharks, which are semi-warm blooded, and prefer cooler waters), and was unable to follow them. So, with it's food supply compromised, and no alternates readily available, Megladon most likely dwindled, and eventually just became extinct. There were also some major geological changes that occured around this time, such as fluctuation of sea level and the general cooling down of the entire planet. This would've no doubt effected their breeding, and been a major contributor to their demise.

Next, there have been some reported sightings of unusually large sharks matchining Megladons probable description, some as recent as 1997.

I don't advocate the existence of modern Megladons, but I am merely giving reasons why they are considered a Cryptid. Actually, out of all the Cryptids I can think of, Megladon(IMO) probably has the second-best chance of actually existing, right after the Tasmanian Wolf.

But the chances for both are very, very slim.

You mean the one from the early 20th century with a shark well over a hundred feet long, glowing white and eating crabfish cages? Told by fishermen no less? That's about as reliable as Meg. Or the father and son who saw a massive shark that from their description seems to be a whale shark but that they claim was a 70' reef shark or something equally silly? That's TWO sightings. THat's what, a sliver of a percentage of what Loch Ness gets in a year. Sorry; Meg was a horrible piece of fiction that sparked this entire silly fad. THe crypto community should focus on cryptids with a bit more possible evidence.

[Werewolf_Genesis]

I vote for The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[Cynical Sounds]

There are a few reasons why Megladon could be considered a 'cryptid'.

First off, your timeline is wrong. Current paleological evidence places the final extinction of Megladon from 50,000 to as recent as 10,000 years ago. This is almost within the Human Era.

yeah but thats because of manganese dioxide deposition which at best can be described as variable (and often referred to as highly variable) and dependent upon (among other factors) regional and seasonal fluctuations in primary productivity by phytoplankton. besides look at the number of species that have become exstinct over this time. while geologically speaking its a blink of an eye that still enough generations for a species like megladon to get wiped out.

Next, there have been some reported sightings of unusually large sharks matchining Megladons probable description, some as recent as 1997.

I see people say this alot but most sightings are skechy (the few I can actually find) at best and there aren't even any half decent photos/video i know of, and while I can't say people didn't see what they say was a megladon I know the sea can can play tricks on even an experienced mariner, Or it could be a miss identification that people glimps and instantly match to there "megladon archetypes" without further chance of real identification

Oh and if anyone posts the "megladon at the bottom of the mariana trench video" its a SLEEPER SHARK and the vid is from the bottom of TOKYO BAY

I don't advocate the existence of modern Megladons, but I am merely giving reasons why they are considered a Cryptid. Actually, out of all the Cryptids I can think of, Megladon(IMO) probably has the second-best chance of actually existing, right after the Tasmanian Wolf.

But the chances for both are very, very slim.

personally i would rate it pretty low. like Dracula low

Nobody has ever captured a live Giant Squid, and we've only got a photograph of a live one within the last year. And no one has ever seen a live Giant Squid in person. Not, and lived to tell about it. (There are only unsubstantiated stories of such)

ok that photo (i assume your talking about the one taken by japanese scientists) was taken on the 15th January 2002 and there were other photos like the famous diver photo of 1993 (he saw one and got a photo to prove it) or the discovery channel video of 2001 not to mention all the corpses another other evidence (like large sucker marks on deep diving whale species like sperm whales) and while we may not have a living specimen in captivity there are those dead specimens like the one frozen and on display at the Melbourn aquarium http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/ArchOLD-6/1166805887.jpg and through these verity of means there are thought to be at least 8 individual species identified and to I.D. a new species u need at least some data about it (and alot has been collected over the years especially the last decade) where there are no megladon photos, corpses, teeth (which they shed hundreds of in their lifetime) nothing

Edited September 23, 2009 by Spend

[Drago]

First off, your timeline is wrong. Current paleological evidence places the final extinction of Megladon from 50,000 to as recent as 10,000 years ago.

Source? Everything I've read and watched places them as going extinct either very late Pliocene or early Pleistocene. The only people I've seen saying anything else are going by the train of thought that some scientists say it went extinct in the Pleistocene, and the Pleistocene only ended twelve thousand years ago, so Megalodon went extinct twelve thousand years ago. Which of course is not how it works. Even among official dates, the biggest argument is whether it went extinct 2.5 million years ago, during the very late Pliocene, or 1.5 million years ago about halfway through the Pleistocene.

[Cynical Sounds]

Source? Everything I've read and watched places them as going extinct either very late Pliocene or early Pleistocene. The only people I've seen saying anything else are going by the train of thought that some scientists say it went extinct in the Pleistocene, and the Pleistocene only ended twelve thousand years ago, so Megalodon went extinct twelve thousand years ago. Which of course is not how it works. Even among official dates, the biggest argument is whether it went extinct 2.5 million years ago, during the very late Pliocene, or 1.5 million years ago about halfway through the Pleistocene.

the theory is based on the average rate of deposition of manganese dioxide around nuclei composed of fossil shark teeth. But as I said in my other post the rate of deposition of manganese dioxide is highly variable so the evidence of them living comparitivly recently is pretty low and even if they did it doesn't prove they're not extinct as it would still give plenty of time for them to be wiped out

[Agent. Mulder]

My question is this: How the crap is Meg considered a cryptid? There are no contemporary reports of massive sharks. No weird remains of giant fifty foot sharks. We don't even have blurry photos and bad home movies. There is nothing. Not a shred of even the most questionable evidence that places Megalodon in today's oceans. Just a series of sci-fi books.

How do we go from that to trying to prove Megalodon still exists? Megalodon doesn't even have the luxury of questionable eyewitness accounts. There was, is, and remains no one that claims to have seen Megalodon in contemporary oceans. Yet somehow it keeps coming up in cryptozoological discussion.

Why? It was big, it was mean, it was deadly. It's impressive, yes. But why has 'cryptozoology' chosen to champion the cause of a long-extinct ocean predator when there has never been any kind of indication they survived past the end of the Pliocene?

im sure it was already said, but its a cryptid because its the study of animals that are seen, but once thought to be extinct. thats why. like the tyhlacine as well.

criptids isnt just things like the chupa, sea monsters and werewolfs.

[Mattshark]

It's hypothesis. Nothing more.

Idiotic hypothesis at that.

Nope, a hypothesis requires observation. This is just fantasy.

[Drago]

im sure it was already said, but its a cryptid because its the study of animals that are seen, but once thought to be extinct. thats why. like the tyhlacine as well.

...That's my entire point. There have been no reports of Megalodon. No one has been reporting constant encounters with mysterious 50+ foot sharks. 'Animals that are seen, but thought to be extinct' doesn't apply here because no one's seeing Megalodon. They don't even fit into most reports of random Sea Monsters.

What literally, factually happened was that an author wrote some books and started a fad, and somehow that completely fictional book that made up facts and ignored everything scientifically wrong with the plot inspired an entire generation of Cryptidheads to start crying out in favor of the continued existence of a megapredator that no one has ever claimed to have encountered!

[S2F]

What literally, factually happened was that an author wrote some books and started a fad, and somehow that completely fictional book that made up facts and ignored everything scientifically wrong with the plot inspired an entire generation of Cryptidheads to start crying out in favor of the continued existence of a megapredator that no one has ever claimed to have encountered!

Sounds a lot like Scientology to me . Maybe Tom Cruise is keeping a Meg in his basement hehe.

A lot of it has to do with the cryptid crowd wanting to hold on to possibilities (since that is all they have). They do it all the time, argue that .001% chance is more than enough reason to go and look. There is always a chance that Meg could have survived however remote the possibility is. IMO it is a lot less than .001% though.

[Agent. Mulder]

...That's my entire point. There have been no reports of Megalodon. No one has been reporting constant encounters with mysterious 50+ foot sharks. 'Animals that are seen, but thought to be extinct' doesn't apply here because no one's seeing Megalodon. They don't even fit into most reports of random Sea Monsters.

What literally, factually happened was that an author wrote some books and started a fad, and somehow that completely fictional book that made up facts and ignored everything scientifically wrong with the plot inspired an entire generation of Cryptidheads to start crying out in favor of the continued existence of a megapredator that no one has ever claimed to have encountered!

well, there have been reports, thus why it was brought back as a cryptid now.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46630 that site has a story.

http://www.wyrdology.com/cryptozoology/megalodon.html (below taken from site)

The most famous megalodon sightings were collected by the Australian naturalist David Stead. In the early 20th century he collected reports of a gigantic white shark that had terrorised the fishermen of Port Stephens. Since most of these eye witnesses are anonymous their accounts are often dismissed by sceptics as being anecdotal and of little value. However such reports - whilst not proving the existence of the megalodon - make this mystery an area of interest to many cryptozoologists.

heres some passage:

In the year 1918 I recorded the sensation that had been caused among the "outside" crayfish men at Port Stephens, when, for several days, they refused to go to sea to their regular fishing grounds in the vicinity of Broughton Island. The men had been at work on the fishing grounds--which lie in deep water--when an immense shark of almost unbelievable proportions put in an appearance, lifting pot after pot containing many crayfishes, and taking, as the men said, "pots, mooring lines and all." These crayfish pots, it should be mentioned, were about 3 feet 6 inches in diameter and frequently contained from two to three dozen good-sized crayfish each weighing several pounds. The men were all unanimous that this shark was something the like of which they had never dreamed of. In company with the local Fisheries Inspector I questioned many of the men very closely and they all agreed as to the gigantic stature of the beast. But the lengths they gave were, on the whole, absurd. I mention them, however, as an indication of the state of mind which this unusual giant had thrown them into. And bear in mind that these were men who were used to the sea and all sorts of weather, and all sorts of sharks as well. One of the crew said the shark was "three hundred feet long at least"! Others said it was as long as the wharf on which we stood--about 115 feet! They affirmed that the water "boiled" over a large space when the fish swam past. They were all familiar with whales, which they had often seen passing at sea, but this was a vast shark. They had seen its terrible head which was "at least as long as the roof on the wharf shed at Nelson's Bay." Impossible, of course! But these were prosaic and rather stolid men, not given to 'fish stories' nor even to talking about their catches. Further, they knew that the person they were talking to (myself) had heard all the fish stories years before! One of the things that impressed me was that they all agreed as to the ghostly whitish color of the vast fish. thats an excerpt from a book stead did. sooo, technically there have been 'sightings'.

as well as some other sites sharing the same stories.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Agent. Mulder

[Drago]

Big shark =/= Megalodon.

First link: You can't be trying to use this as a source. It's riddled with factual errors that even casual research into Megalodon would have revealed to the author. Also, Richard Ellis would take a lot of offense at seeing his name so casually, repeatedly dropped in support of Megalodon's continued existence. He's made it well known he does not support the people who claim Megalodon still exists.

Second link and attached story: ...You do realize, if this mysterious something was between 150 and 300 feet, three foot crab pots with some crustaceans in them would be kind of beneath its notice. That's like a Great White trying to make a living off minnows. There isn't enough there to justify messing with it.

General consensus is that some crab fishermen had some of their pots broken into, they got p***ed and emotional and saw something in the water. probably a sperm whale off in the distance, and by the time they got back to shore they'd been attacked by a three hundred foot pure white shark that actually came up to the surface so they could see it, even though the fishing grounds were in very deep water and the pots were a long ways down.

And of course it went away and never returned, which just made the story easier to inflate.

The problems with the story are everywhere in it. Not the least of which is the white color. A lot of people yell "Well it was a Megalodon coming up to the surface for some reason, from way down deep, where they've all turned white because there's no light!"

The problem with this is that we have met sharks from down that deep. They're all dark. Some of them look almost black.

And some people go on to say "Well of course it wasn't really three hundred feet, the fishermen were just really freaked out and scared. It was probably more like sixty - which is Meg size!" First of all, the shark arbitrarily being Meg-sized is just that, arbitrary. If they were exaggerating out of fear it could have been any size between 0 and their estimation. That Megalodon supporters just choose Meg size is an indication of their reliability. Or lack of.

Secondly, I find it very ironic that these same people claim the fishermen can be trusted on their word and nothing else because of their stolid nature and their unwavering fortitude and no-nonsense 'seen everything' attitude. And yet in the next sentence we're both told these men saw something and FREAKED OUT SO MUCH SO FAST that they were giving size estimates of three hundred feet. Convenient, isn't it?

I'm getting sidetracked. Nobody has reported sighting fifty foot sharks swimming the seas. The fact that everyone who wants Meg to still be alive REFERENCES the Port Stephens thing kind of shows how slim pickings are.

Meg isn't a cryptid. It doesn't fit the definition in any way. It's just a giant exercise in Wishful What If that's gotten way out of hand.