A couple of Questions I need answered!

[ShadowsAndDust]

I'm not the one making the claim that "something" exists. So the burden of proof is on you to proof it exists not for me disprove it. It's like me saying "hey dude i have a dog who flies..... come on prove that it does not fly?".....

Suffering exists it's quite evident. Evil people also exist that is also evident. To claim otherwise shows your "intellectual" qualities of that of a elementary student.

Once again what you posted is a theory. If we were to believe every single thing a person said without the need for evidence then we would believe Elvis is still alive, Tupac and Biggie are smoking a joint as we speak and my neighbour was really abducted by bigfoot....

Peace

T.I.G

I never said suffering doesn't exist, but there is a completely reasonable explanation for it within all holy texts, and you choose to ignore that to further you own agenda that religion is evil. Now tell me whose intellectual qualities are brought into question?

If you don't acknowledge theories, then what can you acknowledge? The point is you are meant to take it in with an open mind, not dismiss it simply because it is a theory.

[The Infidel Guy]

I never said suffering doesn't exist, but there is a completely reasonable explanation for it within all holy texts, and you choose to ignore that to further you own agenda that religion is evil. Now tell me whose intellectual qualities are brought into question?

If you don't acknowledge theories, then what can you acknowledge? The point is you are meant to take it in with an open mind, not dismiss it simply because it is a theory.

I have no agenda just merely trying to attempt to illuminate the inconsistencies in your own dogma that you either ignore or fail to recognize.

Theory - guess or conjecture.

Why would i acknowledge a theory? It's just a guess. I can read it with an open mind but at the end of the day it is just that - a speculation or expression of an opinion without sufficient evidence for proof.

Yes i read it...... is there anything evidential about what is said? No!..... Can i dismiss it because there is no evidence? It's only logical to say YES!..... unless proven otherwise.... and this is where you come in.... Over to you.....

Peace

T.I.G

Edited October 30, 2009 by The Infidel Guy

[IamsSon]

EPIC FAIL!

God is said to be "Perfect" so nothing "imperfect" can come out of it..... this is obviously a contradiction since all we have to do to discover God as being imperfect is to look around the world. So therefore God is imperfect and thus negates the Bible....

Peace

T.I.G

As people are well aware on here, i don't deal with "could", "might", "if", "maybe" etc...... Provide me some evidence rather than theories and philosophies....

Fact (according to religion): God is Perfect

Fact (according to religion): God created the universe and everything in it

Fact (according to religion): God created an "intelligent design"

Once again my argument is justified. A perfect being should only create perfection.... since the world is far from perfect the ultimate source of imperfection is God....Not so "intelligently designed" is it......

Peace

T.I.G

Peace

T.I.G

The thing is this whole thought process assumes that a perfect universe means there would be no pain or evil, or any other aberrations and that they exist because God made a mistake. However, if we assume the traits of God that are described in the Bible: omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, then the perfect universe God created was perfect while including pain, evil, and aberrations because the universe is perfect to fulfill His purpose, it is perfect by the definition of the Creator, not necessarily by the definitions of the created. God's purpose seems to be to show mankind that there are consequences to our choices, that even in situations not of our making (earthquakes, tidal waves, etc.), the decisions we make have consequences, that even when we are given less capabilities than others (crippling disfigurement, debilitating disease, etc.) the decisions we make have consequences we will have to deal with. So, the universe is perfect, it's just that you don't get to define it, because it's perfect for the Creator's purpose not yours.

[ChloeB]

This is an invalid reasoning! Perfect may as well contain infinitive numbers of imperfect components, which all together in Big Numbers sense make up something Perfect. Chop "Perfet" in two halves - and you would get two rightfully imperfect entities. Perfect only means it contains Everything, but the parts of this Everything must be imperfect, otherwise they would've themselves contained everything.

Bible presents humans as Images of God, and all religions and theologies equally consider humans Imperfect. In the perfect world, human imperfectness has its multiple varieties, so any deformed human well falls in the big picture without any breach of knowledge.

Your expectation from God of only nice good things is also wrong, at least God of Genesis equally spreads Good and Evil, and precisely because of this, God appears Perfect, as it contains both.

It is a big difference - religion and theology. God of religions is designed for the public to worship, but Theology allows for god being in no need of any worship at all, exactly because god is perfect.

GREAT POST! I completely agree. I've said somewhere around here that it seems that once religions got bigger, more powerful, the more polarized God became which in turn just separates people in the process. I think it's a lot different to look at it as being something to worship than something you are a part of, but that is a liberating way to see it without all the punishment, sin, etc.

[+Sherapy]

This is an invalid reasoning! Perfect may as well contain infinitive numbers of imperfect components, which all together in Big Numbers sense make up something Perfect. Chop "Perfet" in two halves - and you would get two rightfully imperfect entities. Perfect only means it contains Everything, but the parts of this Everything must be imperfect, otherwise they would've themselves contained everything.

Bible presents humans as Images of God, and all religions and theologies equally consider humans Imperfect. In the perfect world, human imperfectness has its multiple varieties, so any deformed human well falls in the big picture without any breach of knowledge.

Your expectation from God of only nice good things is also wrong, at least God of Genesis equally spreads Good and Evil, and precisely because of this, God appears Perfect, as it contains both.

It is a big difference - religion and theology. God of religions is designed for the public to worship, but Theology allows for god being in no need of any worship at all, exactly because god is perfect.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius—and a lot of courage—to move in the opposite direction . E. F. Schumacker

Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say let your affairs be as one, two, three and to a hundred or a thousand… We are happy in proportion to the things we can do without. Henry David Thoreau

The greatest of complexity is often found in the grandest of the simplicity, In other words if one is discussing 'g-d' his qualities or attributes and claiming a relationship with 'him', or the only known path to him they are telling us nothing of g-d, but of themselves, of, where they are in their understanding...

Understanding is to be able to reduce anything to the simplist of elements so a child can grasp the essence of the meaning.....

The Western religious movement has gotten lost in the complexity, as if it means something when it doesn't.. IMO..

The sages of the great creeds all taught this....

Edited October 30, 2009 by S♥ ♥ ♥

[Beckys_Mom]

Come back to me when you have evidence for God not existing...

Impossible.you cannot prove a negative.........

Not a single living soul can prove god exist...hence he main reason its called a ---> BELIEF SYSTEM.....a FAITH not fact...if it were a fact, then IE - the holy bible itself would be classed as a book of fact and not a book of faith

Edited October 30, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[ShadowsAndDust]

Impossible.you cannot prove a negative.........

Not a single living soul can prove god exist...hence he main reason its called a ---> BELIEF SYSTEM.....a FAITH not fact...if it were a fact, then IE - the holy bible itself would be classed as a book of fact and not a book of faith

Ok let me put it another way, prove that atheism is right.

I can drop a stone and say I can prove that it will not stay in the air. I am hence proving a negative.

[mklsgl]

Ok let me put it another way, prove that atheism is right.

I can drop a stone and say I can prove that it will not stay in the air. I am hence proving a negative.

Apples and oranges, ShadowsAndDust! Your analogy is non-sequitur. No one can prove anything abstract. Your "stone" is physical and gravity is your proof. Abstractions, such as [G-d] or love or hate or beauty, cannot be proven nor disproven.

[Mainpoint]

Impossible.you cannot prove a negative.........

Not a single living soul can prove god exist...hence he main reason its called a ---> BELIEF SYSTEM.....a FAITH not fact...if it were a fact, then IE - the holy bible itself would be classed as a book of fact and not a book of faith

I believe humanity can do great things we can create complex machines. By being an atheist if you believe humans as an example are just nothing but molecules interacting with each other and the result is life I go a step further I say if I can make things that can move talk and do other things. Why I cant be a creation myself? Does your car know you exist?

[Beckys_Mom]

Does your car know you exist?

Yes I fuel her with gas...and not cheap stuff neither LMAO

Look point is god cant be proven to exist through scientific evidence

I believe god exists.........but that is all anyone can do..hold a belief

[Beckys_Mom]

Ok let me put it another way, prove that atheism is right.

I can drop a stone and say I can prove that it will not stay in the air. I am hence proving a negative.

1 - you can NOT ever disprove god...just like you cant prove god

2 - Like michael says your anology is non-sequitur and no one can prove anything abstract. Your "stone" is physical and gravity is your proof.

[MARAB0D]

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius—and a lot of courage—to move in the opposite direction . E. F. Schumacker

Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say let your affairs be as one, two, three and to a hundred or a thousand… We are happy in proportion to the things we can do without. Henry David Thoreau

The greatest of complexity is often found in the grandest of the simplicity, In other words if one is discussing 'g-d' his qualities or attributes and claiming a relationship with 'him', or the only known path to him they are telling us nothing of g-d, but of themselves, of, where they are in their understanding...

Understanding is to be able to reduce anything to the simplist of elements so a child can grasp the essence of the meaning.....

The Western religious movement has gotten lost in the complexity, as if it means something when it doesn't.. IMO..

The sages of the great creeds all taught this....

What can be more simple, than presenting God just as a Zero? I think they teach this at school, that if Zero is inverted to 1/0 then it makes Infinity. That latter would be in its entirety as perfect as Zero is. Simple thing!

[MARAB0D]

Ok let me put it another way, prove that atheism is right.

I can drop a stone and say I can prove that it will not stay in the air. I am hence proving a negative.

There is no need to prove if Atheism is right or not, as Atheism is not a religious teaching, it is a way of thinking. When an Atheist thinks he does not take God into account, as simple as that. Because there is no proven God around.

Atheism is a rational thinking, which only deals with the really existing rational world. I am putting a coin in the slot, and get a bus ticket from another slot. If you do the same with a prayer - would get two tickets instead? I turn a key, and the car starts - if you turn a key with a prayer - what would change? Statistics say all disasters and mishaps are equally possible for the believers and non-believers; similar way the believers are no more healthy or live longer than non-believers.

In other words, if we return to your (?) example from Quran, when wize Allah explains stupid Archangels why the bad people still live on Earth - he says "I know why they are here". In this case Allah also knows why the Atheists are here, and hardly Allah can be such petty vindictive that would be dreaming about punishing them, after all they are also his own Images! One Image believes in Allah, another image not - but Allah still knows why they are here. Means Allah does not care who believes and who does not. Adam did not have any faith, he did not believe in God - because he knew God personally, why need to believe?; and Adam was not punished for the lack of faith, same refers to Abraham.

It is not God who tells to the people "here I am", it is the OTHER PEOPLE tell to the people "here it is, God", but how do they know? From the books they themselves wrote? From the books written by others which they trust? How do they choose a trustworthy book? The authors are mostly dead... And some old authors would tell you Baal is the real God, or Zeus is a real God etc etc. So, an Atheist does not bothered making a choice of God, as none of these Gods are actually available for us to choose. Some believe in Allah, some believe in a local Parliament Member, some believe in their bank account etc - there is very many people around, each believes in something!

[+Sherapy]

What can be more simple, than presenting God just as a Zero? I think they teach this at school, that if Zero is inverted to 1/0 then it makes Infinity. That latter would be in its entirety as perfect as Zero is. Simple thing!

I agree this Marabear is simply purely fricken brilliant, I had the same thought when I was driving home tonight....:nw:

I am gonna put this in my siggie....If that is okay with you...

Edited October 31, 2009 by S♥ ♥ ♥

[MARAB0D]

I agree this Marabear is simply purely fricken brilliant, I had the same thought when I was driving home tonight....:nw:

I am gonna put this in my siggie....If that is okay with you...

LOL, of course OK - I cant have a copyright on God!

[+Sherapy]

LOL, of course OK - I cant have a copyright on God!

lol, you can't just kidding..Its a great quote..

[AlexandriaHHM]

WARNING, might disgust you: It "breaks my heart" to see such genetic aberrations. I am truly trying to understand how something like this is evidence of the omnibenevolent Yahweh's intelligent design. Why would a good God create something like this? Perhaps my believing friends can help me out here. Why does God create & torture children with such horrific genetic disorders?

* Non-"Family Friendly" Clip removed. Please see rule 2a *

Also, Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus.

Peace

T.I.G

I don't really have an answer about why some children are made to suffer and some aren't. If you believe that every soul comes to earth for a reason, then there would be a need for us to learn about pain and suffering. There has to be a balance to all things. For every great good there is a great evil. For everything we learn to cure another thing comes up for us to fight. Who's to say God has anything to do with this. If you try to think of creation scientifically The seven days equal up to billions of years each (I know I'm going to catch it for saying this, but I'm entitled to believe what I want) By that calculation we are still in the seventh day and God is still resting. The things that are going on with the world have nothing to do with God directly. Everything that happens is what we have brought on ourselves. Since science brought us out of the Dark Ages people have tried to play God. Who's to say that its not the miracles of modern science that have brought on more things for us to try to cure with that science. I do believe this is the seventh day and God is at rest. I do not want to imagine what will happen on the eight day when God goes back to work and sees what we've done with what he's created.

As for the abortion question. I am not going to rant about how abortion is murder and the commandment of thou shall not kill. From what I have read most people have already covered that. I am going to give an alternative explanation and I am sorry if someone else has already said this and I missed it. Catholics believe that all souls come from the guff or hall of souls. There are a set number of souls in the guff and once the souls are gone it will trigger the end of the world. Most Christians believe that a baby has a soul from the moment of conception (if they didn't we wouldn't be talking about it now)and even though an aborted soul will automatically go to heaven it still leaves a soul that was taken from the guff that can never be replaced. Each soul in the guff has a purpose on this earth. For all we know an aborted baby could have been the next Einstein or Mozart and the world is left a darker place without their enlightenment. If we do not learn what we are supposed to from these souls how can we be prepared if the guff is empty and the end is upon us. The first child born without a soul will signal the coming apocalypse. With all the abortions preformed in the world how much closer are we to the end.

Hope this helped and sorry once again if someone has already said this