Health care an earned right?

[eqgumby]

One of the biggest issues I see in the health care debate right now, is the practice of calling it a "right".

Americans have an assortment of basic rights by virtue of our Constitution and our citizenship. Health care is not one of them.

For the most part, we earn the rest of our rights. I have a new car, because I have the right to a new care based on the fact that I pay my taxes (for road repair etc) and I have a job that allows me to purchase a new car. That is a right that I have earned.

So, what have YOU, a citizen in this country, done to EARN the right to health care? Or is it a BASIC right, like those guaranteed by the Constitution?

If it IS a basic right, what OTHER rights do you think should be rights that we ALL have, regardless of what we contribute to society?

I think honestly that is the biggest sticking point in my eyes.

I work, I pay taxes, I vote...have I earned the right to free health care?

What about those who don't work or contribute to society in any way? What about illegal aliens? Unwed mothers that have never held a full time job and live off of the government (food and housing)? The guy that never finished high-school and mows lawns for a living and drinks a 12 pack a night? Do they deserve the same level and quality of care as I do, the guy that PAYS into the government, rather than COSTING the government?

Maybe health care should be seen as a right. Basic generic health care. But I get the feeling, that when it comes to ANY government service, I should be treated with a little more respect than I get now, since I actually PAY into the government for these services.

If government health care becomes a reality, I think I should get head of the line privileges when I get my annual exams, my flu shots, my prescriptions filled. Why? Because I PAY for it. Those that do NOT pay for it, but are actually receiving this RIGHT due to MY ability to pay taxes, can get to the back of the line. After all, I have a job to get to!

[Mr Honeybadger]

The Constitution guarantees its citizens certain rights. They are not earned or awarded. They are "automatic" so to say.

But Health Care is not one of them.

[eqgumby]

The Constitution guarantees its citizens certain rights. They are not earned or awarded. They are "automatic" so to say.

But Health Care is not one of them.

Which is exactly what I said.

Americans have an assortment of basic rights by virtue of our Constitution and our citizenship. Health care is not one of them.

Other rights we earn as individuals, and are granted in some cases by the government. I have the right to drive a car as long as I follow certain government imposed rules designed for the welfare of our citizens.

So, at what point do I have a "right" to health care? Affordable or otherwise.

That is my whole point, I don't think anyone is entitled health care at no cost (be it directly paid or some other method). Is it possible then, to say that you can EARN that right by being a productive member of society? Like people that worked a full time job and paid their taxes all of their lives have the RIGHT to some of that social security they paid into for all those years, right? If I paid a million dollars in, should I get a bigger piece out later? Since I work for a living and improve myself, shouldn't I get premium health care?

The idea that ALL people deserve identical health benefits seems a bit absurd to me.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

The only people who think health care is a right are the statist useful idiots who think the government should provide them with free money, free health care, free education, etc while they sit on the computer in their mom's basement complaining about evil capitalism and America.

[SilverCougar]

So people who work 2-3 jobs day in and day out who can barely make ends meet.. while you say by your standards they have the right to health care, yet they can't barely keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, let alone health care...

But hey, why make sure everyone is cared for when they can just die. More air for the those who can afford their health care.

[MissMelsWell]

Well, there are people like me... I have had a steady job for 25 years, I pay my taxes, I am responsible with my money, I'm educated. Last July, I lost my job due to the economic downturn. Now I can't find a job to save my life (and this is the first time I've had trouble finding work, and it's getting scary) and I'm praying like hell I don't get sick becaues I don't have insurance now. With no job, I can't afford to purchase insurance on my own, I can barely make my bills on my unemployment and what little under the table income I bring in from some of the jewelry I make and sell. luckily I don't have any conditions that require me to have regular health care.. if I did, I'd be toast.

If I get sick, I'm going to lose my house, my car, basically everything I've worked for over the last 25 years... something needs to be done about that. It's not a violation of my rights per se, but it's bad for the social health of this country.

It's not about what is in the constitution or not, it's about general care for citizens of this country who have worked hard all their lives. Yes, it makes me mad that illegals and other slackers get health care and I don't. COBRA certainly isn't an answer.. in fact it's STUPID. It's so expensive that someone without a job can't afford it. Useless.

I have a friend that is married, has 3 sons, and he works HARD full time. His wife stays home to take care of the children which is best for the kids. He spends, out of his pocket, over $650 a month for health care for his family. They aren't able to own their own home because they have to cough up that $650 a month. How is THAT good for the economy? It's not. It just makes insurance companies fat.

The health care issues of this country just tee me off to no extent, they always have.

[Cradle of Fish]

Don't prisoners get free health care? They earned it by murdering, stealing and raping.

[MissMelsWell]

Don't prisoners get free health care? They earned it by murdering, stealing and raping.

Well, yes they do... the very very basics. Of course, right now, I can't even get the basics. Oh sure, if I was to let my house get forclosed on, and let my car get repo'd and become homeless, then I could get a doctors appointment.

And, I can't let my house go for the very simplest of reasons... my mortgage payment is significantly less than the rent on the average apartment in this area. Fun huh?

[Startraveler]

So, at what point do I have a "right" to health care? Affordable or otherwise.

You talk as if rights are some sort of Platonic ideal form built into the metaphysical fabric of the universe. Rights exist when societies decide they do and governments protect them. Right now, obviously, health care isn't regarded as a right in the United States. So it would be silly to argue that health care is a full-blown right; one need only read as far as MissMelsWell's posts to see that it currently isn't.

The question is whether health care ought to be treated as a right, at least in some respects. In part, we've already embraced the idea that medical care should be decoupled from ability to pay in certain circumstances, namely "emergency medical conditions." We have a health care safety net for the elderly and we have a much more limited program for a slice of our poor population (Medicaid, by the way, allows cost-sharing provisions to be imposed on certain populations meaning it isn't necessarily free). We're also signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25 of which says:

• (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
  
  
• (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

So we already have a limited conception of health care as something to which people ought to have reasonable access (if only by making it more affordable). It's a somewhat confusing issue because referring to health care as a right seems to lead to the assumption that it will thus be free for everyone. Whether a system is funded through taxes or premiums, obviously it isn't free. Even Section 8 public housing isn't free, it just ties payments to income levels. So if we decide to call health care a right and expand access, that doesn't suggest that people will be getting health care for nothing.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Startraveler

[Tiggs]

The only people who think health care is a right are the statist useful idiots who think the government should provide them with free money, free health care, free education, etc while they sit on the computer in their mom's basement complaining about evil capitalism and America.

As Universal Health Care is provided by every wealthy industrialised country in the world apart from America (not to mention quite a few developing ones) - I think you'll find that the belief is slightly more widespread than that.

[MissMelsWell]

Oh, and by the way, I even went out and tried to get a job with Starbucks last month so I could have some insurance and an income that's at least a bit more than my unenjoyment check... they wont' hire me because I'm way over qualified for the job. Nevermind that I worked for them for FIVE years in the 80s and early 90s. I can't even get a job as a frickin' clerk anywhere because all my work experience for the last 15 years is as a developer in the high tech industry... yes, a 6 figure job. I'm po'd because I planned for this kind of scenario... lose my job, make sure my lifestyle is supportable on a very small income, then I can work anywhere and still make the bills and have insurance. No DICE. No one will hire someone for a 30K a year job who was previously making 110K a year. I've learned that the HARD way.

As of today, I'm considering selling my house and opening my own small retail business... nevermind that even if I do that... I still won't have health insurance for probably years until the business is turning a great profit.

[danielost]

The only people who think health care is a right are the statist useful idiots who think the government should provide them with free money, free health care, free education, etc while they sit on the computer in their mom's basement complaining about evil capitalism and America.

sorry free education is a right

[danielost]

So people who work 2-3 jobs day in and day out who can barely make ends meet.. while you say by your standards they have the right to health care, yet they can't barely keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, let alone health care...

But hey, why make sure everyone is cared for when they can just die. More air for the those who can afford their health care.

then cut taxes so they don't have to work 2 or 3 jobs a day and can afford health care.

how long must you work each year to pay your yearly taxes is it may or june.

[danielost]

Don't prisoners get free health care? They earned it by murdering, stealing and raping.

they get free health care because they are stuck in a cell and unable to work. lets start up the chain gangs again then at least they will be able to earn their healthcare and food.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

sorry free education is a right

Sorry, I meant college education.

Although I think the government should stay out of K-12 education as much as possible.

[danielost]

As Universal Health Care is provided by every wealthy industrialised country in the world apart from America (not to mention quite a few developing ones) - I think you'll find that the belief is slightly more widespread than that.

how many of those populations have stopped working. because of all the government hand outs.

[MissMelsWell]

The only people who think health care is a right are the statist useful idiots who think the government should provide them with free money, free health care, free education, etc while they sit on the computer in their mom's basement complaining about evil capitalism and America.

Uh huh... ya, I raised a kid all on my own without ever taking social welfare OR child support, I have worked HARD all my life and have an excellent reputation in my industry, I did go to college on a government grant, two of them actually, but it was a government program based on the H1B Visa program. (If companies don't use their alotted H1B's, the government pays the company to send their natural born employees back to college. Irony.)

I've NEVER sat in my mom's basement complaining about evil capitalism, I'm actually an advoate of capitalism, however, it's criminal that I have to go without health care because the economy is in the toilet. If I get sick I lose EVERYTHING I worked so hard to build. You'd be p***ed off too.

I'm not alone in this scenario... I know a lot of people in my same situation right now... we're scared wittless. Did we "earn the right" for free health care? I don't know... I kinda feel like I have. Even going so far as to sit on the board of an endowment for a local childrens hospital who provided funds for uncompensated care assistance. Oh more irony.

Edited October 16, 2009 by MissMelsWell

[Tiggs]

how many of those populations have stopped working. because of all the government hand outs.

You think America is the only place on the planet that works?

What has Universal Health Care got to do with employment?

Edited October 16, 2009 by Tiggs

[momentarylapseofreason]

People need health care like they need water. We all get ill eventually.

You know the old saying "if you don't have your health you don't have anything", that is true

It's a human rights issue that was somehow left out of the constitution

Hey maybe they thought god would heal them or illness is god's will? Who knows?

But doctors need to get paid and people should pay if able and should work if able, and some people are so ill they cannot work (including mentally ill/emotionally/handicapped) or worse they simply cannot find a job!!

It is absolutely ridiculous that we don't have comprehensive health care for all our citizens!!!

If other countries can do it and remain wealthy then so can we!!! We can do anything IMO

Looking at Startravelers health care bill that he posted it looks ver similar to germany's and their health care is wonderful.And I might add the german insurance companies make big profits regardless, I don't know what the hoopla is all about! The insurance companies here must possess infinite greed

I forgot to metion that health care cost is cheaper in Germany, this helps ins. companies, but that is why we need gov. regulation. Stock holders should not profit at our expense. plain & simple.

Edited October 16, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[danielost]

People need health care like they need water. We all get ill eventually.

You know the old saying "if you don't have your health you don't have anything", that is true

It's a human rights issue that was somehow left out of the constitution

Hey maybe they thought god would heal them or illness is god's will? Who knows?

But doctors need to get paid and people should pay if able and should work if able, and some people are so ill they cannot work (including mentally ill/emotionally/handicapped)

It is absolutely ridiculous that we don't have comprehensive health care for all its citizens!!!

if other countries can do it and remain wealthy then so can we!!! We can do anything IMO

that is what constitutional amendments are for.

[danielost]

You think America is the only place on the planet that works?

What has Universal Health Care got to do with employment?

i never said that. i asked how much of those pops have quit working because of government handouts.

health care in itself is a good idea. the problem is giving the government more power than it needs to get it.

[Tiggs]

i never said that. i asked how much of those pops have quit working because of government handouts.

Again. How do you manage to quit work if the Government's simply providing you with Universal Health Care?

Edited October 16, 2009 by Tiggs

[danielost]

Again. How do you manage to quit work if the Government's simply providing you with Universal Health Care?

because no government just offers universal health care.

[momentarylapseofreason]

Like MMW mentioned it is insane and unjust that people who lose their jobs have no health care!! Or lose everything they worked for!!

By the way MMW I hope that things work out for you quickly!!Your situation is unacceptable and grossly unfair!

[Tiggs]

because no government just offers universal health care.

Because there's already no unemployment pay within the US?

Two completely separate issues, Daniel.