Health care an earned right?

[nuttychef]

I think by existing and being a human being, we have a right...How can anyone be the one to put a dollar value on a human life? Because right now money is more important than our lives. There should be no earned right, but a given right.

[danielost]

Because there's already no unemployment pay within the US?

Two completely separate issues, Daniel.

sorry unemployment is not unversal. this is part of payroll taxes and you pay part of it and the company pays the rest. so when you become unemployed you get this back. how ever there are rules that if not followed you then do not get it.

[IamsSon]

I WANT to provide, I always have provided... but why you can't provide, then what? I WANT to work, I spend 8 hours a day looking for something, anything, that will keep my MEAGER lifestyle afloat and provide health care. No one will hire me because I'm overqualified for a lot of jobs, and my field where i am qualified isn't hiring. Rock, hard place. Luckily, at this point I'm not taking charity from friends or family, nor am I taking anything other than the unemployment I'm due (because I paid for it already), I'm sustaining myself because I planned. Unfortunately, no amount of planning could get me health insurance... not at the $800+ a MONTH it would cost me out of pocket, in cash. You know that kind of premium is the same I pay for my MORTGAGE? That's insanity, that's criminal.

Isn't it also criminal to force someone else to pay your debts? Isn't it also criminal to REQUIRE someone to be insured or pay a fine as part of their income taxes? Isn't it also criminal to allow someone else's money to be lost through fraud and waste? Isn't it also criminal to take the wages of someone and give them to an organization KNOWN to be wasteful? Isn't it unChristian? Isn't it?

I WANT to pay extra taxes so people like myself, and ALL people in this country have care that doesn't DESTROY their lives because their appendix burst when they were out of work. That's inhumane. Even prisoners are treated more humanely.

There is no hospital that would LEGALLY turn someone away who needed the treatment.

I normally love your posts, and consider you a friend, but that post was pretty much over the top. Wanna pay my premiums for me? A good christian would help a fellow christian who's down and out. Maybe you could cover my hospital bill if I get hit by a city bus later today... you know, so I could have a home to come back to when I get out of traction?? That would be great, thanks.

Mels, I truly am concerned for your circumstances, and the circumstances of anyone who truly cannot afford insurance and wants it. As a Christian, it is my responsibility to provide for anyone and everyone I can. As a Christian I am also the spiritual head of my household and am responsible for providing for my family. I may not be currently able to provide for you personally, but I can get you in touch with Christians who may currently be in better financial circumstances than I am. I can PM you with contact information or you can PM me with your needs and I can pass it on.

As a United States citizen, it is not my responsibility to provide for everyone else. As a United States citizen I have the freedom to choose to do so if I want to, but I also have the right to my wages and to decide what to do with them.

Article I, Section 8, paragraph 1 of the United States Constitution, coupled with the 16th amendment to the Constitution.

This one irrefutably is a right.

Hmm, let's see. Article I, Section 8 paragraph 1:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

16th Amendment:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever sources derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Given that at most, 3% of U.S. citizens are affected by lack of insurance at any one time (A large portion of the now 30,000,000 supposedly uninsured are uninsured because they choose not to take insurance whether in the form of employer-provided or Medicare) I can't see how we can argues this is a "general welfare" issue.

So, I argue that no, it is not irrefutably a right.

[danielost]

I WANT to provide, I always have provided... but why you can't provide, then what? I WANT to work, I spend 8 hours a day looking for something, anything, that will keep my MEAGER lifestyle afloat and provide health care. No one will hire me because I'm overqualified for a lot of jobs, and my field where i am qualified isn't hiring. Rock, hard place. Luckily, at this point I'm not taking charity from friends or family, nor am I taking anything other than the unemployment I'm due (because I paid for it already), I'm sustaining myself because I planned. Unfortunately, no amount of planning could get me health insurance... not at the $800+ a MONTH it would cost me out of pocket, in cash. You know that kind of premium is the same I pay for my MORTGAGE? That's insanity, that's criminal.

I WANT to pay extra taxes so people like myself, and ALL people in this country have care that doesn't DESTROY their lives because their appendix burst when they were out of work. That's inhumane. Even prisoners are treated more humanely.

I normally love your posts, and consider you a friend, but that post was pretty much over the top. Wanna pay my premiums for me? A good christian would help a fellow christian who's down and out. Maybe you could cover my hospital bill if I get hit by a city bus later today... you know, so I could have a home to come back to when I get out of traction?? That would be great, thanks.

start your own business.

[danielost]

Isn't it also criminal to force someone else to pay your debts? Isn't it also criminal to REQUIRE someone to be insured or pay a fine as part of their income taxes? Isn't it also criminal to allow someone else's money to be lost through fraud and waste? Isn't it also criminal to take the wages of someone and give them to an organization KNOWN to be wasteful? Isn't it unChristian? Isn't it?

There is no hospital that would LEGALLY turn someone away who needed the treatment.

Mels, I truly am concerned for your circumstances, and the circumstances of anyone who truly cannot afford insurance and wants it. As a Christian, it is my responsibility to provide for anyone and everyone I can. As a Christian I am also the spiritual head of my household and am responsible for providing for my family. I may not be currently able to provide for you personally, but I can get you in touch with Christians who may currently be in better financial circumstances than I am. I can PM you with contact information or you can PM me with your needs and I can pass it on.

As a United States citizen, it is not my responsibility to provide for everyone else. As a United States citizen I have the freedom to choose to do so if I want to, but I also have the right to my wages and to decide what to do with them.

Hmm, let's see. Article I, Section 8 paragraph 1:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

16th Amendment:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever sources derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Given that at most, 3% of U.S. citizens are affected by lack of insurance at any one time (A large portion of the now 30,000,000 supposedly uninsured are uninsured because they choose not to take insurance whether in the form of employer-provided or Medicare) I can't see how we can argues this is a "general welfare" issue.

So, I argue that no, it is not irrefutably a right.

i think he meant the stealing of money from one group of people by the government.

[+Sherapy]

Well, there are people like me... I have had a steady job for 25 years, I pay my taxes, I am responsible with my money, I'm educated. Last July, I lost my job due to the economic downturn. Now I can't find a job to save my life (and this is the first time I've had trouble finding work, and it's getting scary) and I'm praying like hell I don't get sick becaues I don't have insurance now. With no job, I can't afford to purchase insurance on my own, I can barely make my bills on my unemployment and what little under the table income I bring in from some of the jewelry I make and sell. luckily I don't have any conditions that require me to have regular health care.. if I did, I'd be toast.

If I get sick, I'm going to lose my house, my car, basically everything I've worked for over the last 25 years... something needs to be done about that. It's not a violation of my rights per se, but it's bad for the social health of this country.

It's not about what is in the constitution or not, it's about general care for citizens of this country who have worked hard all their lives. Yes, it makes me mad that illegals and other slackers get health care and I don't. COBRA certainly isn't an answer.. in fact it's STUPID. It's so expensive that someone without a job can't afford it. Useless.

I have a friend that is married, has 3 sons, and he works HARD full time. His wife stays home to take care of the children which is best for the kids. He spends, out of his pocket, over $650 a month for health care for his family. They aren't able to own their own home because they have to cough up that $650 a month. How is THAT good for the economy? It's not. It just makes insurance companies fat.

The health care issues of this country just tee me off to no extent, they always have.

These are the reasons I am in support of universal health care. and just basic human compassion, i do not police every penny, I have no issue with contributing, so all can have health care, ..........I was 7th months pregnant and my hubby got layed off for a long while, we lost our health care, I had worked my life as did my hubby and payed taxes...When I went to Public aid to get temporary medicare I was denied, I wasn't destitute enough they said...

Fortunately the Doctor I was going too kept me on and delivered my baby....

I also know many many people who work their butts off, pay taxes who do not have medical they can't afford it, their jobs can't provide it....

It saddens me to the depth of my very heart that we are such an uncaring, selfish, uniformed nation....

Nik, I hope you find work soon.....

Edited October 16, 2009 by S♥ ♥ ♥

[Startraveler]

I can't see how we can argues this [health care] is a "general welfare" issue.

I know you can't. You've already advocated letting natural selection kill the weaker members of society in this very thread (even though several of the testimonials in this thread clearly indicate that many of the people hurting under the current structure are strong, productive members of society).

So, I argue that no, it is not irrefutably a right.

You asked "who gives you the right to other people's money?" The answer is "the U.S. Constitution." Taxation is and always has been constitutional.

[MissMelsWell]

if you didn't you should have sued.

Obviously you didn't pose that statement from an educated point of view... it's almost impossible to sue an insurance company and no attorney would touch his case with a ten foot pole. If you can't get an attorney to take the case, you have no case.

I swear, after what I just saw IamSon post and after seeing your posts Daniel, I have to say I'm really disappointed my some of my brethren.

I feel strongly about this topic because I sat on an Endowment for a local childrens hospital that provided charity raised funds for uncompenstated care... meaning, our foundation picked up the bills for little kids whose parents couldn't afford what insurance would not cover. Without our endowment, lots of those kids might have died becaues they weren't getting the best care available. Most of those kids came from hard working middle class families. In some cases, they were getting worse care from their private insurance companies than the kids who were completely cared for by the state. It makes your stomach turn, it really does.

I'd prefer to see everyone at least get the care they need--if I get sick today and requried any hospital care, I'd lose everything... and if I lost everything, I'd NEVER again be able to provide for people like the ones I supported during my stint with the endowment, I'd never again be able to contribute to this economy the way I have in the past... might as well erase me from the economy completely... I'd be too busy paying a hospital perhaps tens of thousands of dollars, maybe more.

Wouldn't you rather have me and earning powers going back into the economy? I would.

[+Sherapy]

I WANT to provide, I always have provided... but why you can't provide, then what? I WANT to work, I spend 8 hours a day looking for something, anything, that will keep my MEAGER lifestyle afloat and provide health care. No one will hire me because I'm overqualified for a lot of jobs, and my field where i am qualified isn't hiring. Rock, hard place. Luckily, at this point I'm not taking charity from friends or family, nor am I taking anything other than the unemployment I'm due (because I paid for it already), I'm sustaining myself because I planned. Unfortunately, no amount of planning could get me health insurance... not at the $800+ a MONTH it would cost me out of pocket, in cash. You know that kind of premium is the same I pay for my MORTGAGE? That's insanity, that's criminal.

I WANT to pay extra taxes so people like myself, and ALL people in this country have care that doesn't DESTROY their lives because their appendix burst when they were out of work. That's inhumane. Even prisoners are treated more humanely.

I normally love your posts, and consider you a friend, but that post was pretty much over the top. Wanna pay my premiums for me? A good christian would help a fellow christian who's down and out. Maybe you could cover my hospital bill if I get hit by a city bus later today... you know, so I could have a home to come back to when I get out of traction?? That would be great, thanks.

Yes, they would Nik, it deeply saddens me to read a lot of these posts..

If my family can be of any help to you please let me know, I am being sincere....

[MissMelsWell]

start your own business.

Yes! but if you'd read my posts, you'd know that that is something I'm considering. I'd have to sell my home to do that.. which might be ok (although I'd lose a big tax break) but starting my own business doesn't mean I'd have health insurance.. in fact, it means I'd be without it for even longer. No business is a raging financial success the moment you start it up.. you go for sometimes YEARS before you turn enough profit (provided it even lasts that long) to purchase your own health insurance. Starting a business is even riskier than looking for a corporate job.

Think man, think.

[momentarylapseofreason]

start your own business.

Wake up and smell Reality!!

[MissMelsWell]

Yes, they would Nik, it deeply saddens me to read a lot of these posts..

If my family can be of any help to you please let me know, I am being sincere....

no, haha, I have planned well and I'm ok collecting unenjoyment and selling my jewlery... I worry about getting sick, although I haven't been sick in years and years and I'm extremely healthy, but you never can tell... one of my best friends was out of work, and healthy too, when his appendix burst, he went septic and three surgeries and three weeks in the hospital later he had a 170K hospital bill. His life is ruined. He's actually had to quit his job because he can't afford to have his checks garnished for both child support he can't pay and a hospital bill he can't pay... luckily he has a place to live for now, but he'll never recover. Never. (although, he's claiming bankrupsy now which should get rid of the hospital bill, but that's not good for the economy either.)

[IamsSon]

Yes, health coverage is a right! If you don't have yor health then you have nothing! That makes it a right.But it should not cost you all that you have worked for!!!

Oh, are you now also an anti-abortionist? After all, those innocent unborn children also have a right to life don't they? I mean if we all have a right to health, then we all have a right to life.

I disagree, we don't have a right to health. You have a right to take care of your health, you have a right to care for yourself, you have a right to keep your money so you can care for yourself. You do not have the right to someone else's money to care for your health.

For those of you who immediately start crying about how people are whining about paying more taxes, the question is, who gives you the right to other people's money?

I see some of my money as other people's money right from the beginning. If something happens to me they also give up some of their money. It works both ways not just one way. It's there for you also, just in case. We can't all be millionaires, can we? Its like a commmunity fund to help others. We are one nation under

Under what? Under who?

As an American, you have the right to see your money as you will. You do not have the right to dictate how I should see my money. After all I see all of my money as God's money which He gives me responsibility for. Part of that responsibility is to provide for my family and I also see some of that money as being intended to further God's ministry. Does the fact that I see some of my money as being specifically for Christian Ministry mean I have the right to force you to spend your money on Christian Ministry? Why not?

I've gone without health insurance, and yes, it's incredibly scary that you or your child might get sick and not be able to pay or that you will lose your house and everything you own. But it is MY responsibility, no one else's. Life is not fair, and it is selfish to think that other people should have to give up their hard-earned wages to cover your responsibilities.

And you call yourself a Christian? Do you think this is how Jesus would be? You are the one being selfish! The Republican party certainly is the selfish party.

Ahh, the "You call yourself a Christian" card! Funny how it always comes out! Yes, I am a Christian and as a Christian I should help anyone who needs it and I do. AS A CHRISTIAN. NOT AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. As a Christian I do not need the government to force me to help someone. As an American Citizen, I have the right to defend myself from the tyrannical treatment of my or any other government. As an American Citizen I have the right to protect my property, even from ESPECIALLY FROM, the government.

I really can't understand how people who espouse evolution suddenly want to make sure no one suffers the effects of their decisions. If you believe in evolution, then you know that it is best if those who can't provide for themselves and their offspring be removed (even if you are the one who can't provide), and also that the offspring of someone like that also not have the opportunity to reproduce such inferior genes.

I don't see how people are so "pro-life" at the same time don't respect children once they are born and complain about their hard earned dollars supporting them in any way shape or form. Besides Illness is not just do from bad genes. People can get sick from pollution/environment/from work/accidents. Besides everyone gets old and therefore eventually ill

LEGALLY, no one can be turned away from medical care, so exactly where are these children who are being LEGALLY denied medical treatment?

If you're not a believer in evolution and you are religious or even a Christian, then you know it is your responsibility to provide, not the government's and you also know that forcefully taking from someone to give it to someone else is theft. Saying it's taxes is just a way of justifying theft.

Well obviously we are a Christian Nation so why aren't ya all providing anything except preaching, judging, complaining about government and maybe/sometimes helping only your own or people in your Church. (I speak of the conservatives-the ones that conserve all the money they can

:w00t:

Suddenly you're arguing we're a Christian Nation!? You truly have hit a new low. Can I use this quote next time you're arguing we're not a Christian Nation?

Unfortunately for you, I have stated often that the United States is not a Christian Nation. Yes, it is based on Christian values, which include the idea that adults are responsible for their actions and for providing for their offspring.

Like I have said, as a Christian, I do help others because I WANT TO, because I feel it is what God wants me to do, not because the government forces me to. But if the government takes away my income and uses it to buy $10,000 screw drivers and to buy votes, and to give Congressmen raises, and to pay for their vacations and their first-class tickets on boondoggles then I have less with which to help others.

[danielost]

Obviously you didn't pose that statement from an educated point of view... it's almost impossible to sue an insurance company and no attorney would touch his case with a ten foot pole. If you can't get an attorney to take the case, you have no case.

I swear, after what I just saw IamSon post and after seeing your posts Daniel, I have to say I'm really disappointed my some of my brethren.

I feel strongly about this topic because I sat on an Endowment for a local childrens hospital that provided charity raised funds for uncompenstated care... meaning, our foundation picked up the bills for little kids whose parents couldn't afford what insurance would not cover. Without our endowment, lots of those kids might have died becaues they weren't getting the best care available. Most of those kids came from hard working middle class families. In some cases, they were getting worse care from their private insurance companies than the kids who were completely cared for by the state. It makes your stomach turn, it really does.

I'd prefer to see everyone at least get the care they need--if I get sick today and requried any hospital care, I'd lose everything... and if I lost everything, I'd NEVER again be able to provide for people like the ones I supported during my stint with the endowment, I'd never again be able to contribute to this economy the way I have in the past... might as well erase me from the economy completely... I'd be too busy paying a hospital perhaps tens of thousands of dollars, maybe more.

Wouldn't you rather have me and earning powers going back into the economy? I would.

after all my post's your upset about me.

while guess what i am not against universal health care.

what i am against is giving the government control over life and death more than they already have. right now it takes a court for them to decide to kill you unless of course you point a gun at one of them.

if this universal health care passes all it will take is congress to pass a new statuate or the president to use a presidental order. like when billy outlawed fishing, boating or swimming along the whole west coast of the usa. not to mention all of those shipping harbours should have been closed. bill clinton used a presidential order and made the whole west coast a national monument.

i am against a doctor telling you according to law he cant help you. and yes this is in the bill that is on it's way to a senate vote. it provides for not sure, the wording but lets call it points, you basically allowed so many points each year and if a medical procedure goes above those points determined by how many years you have left to live according to a doctor the doctor won't be able to help you.

i am against pushing another "right" on the people to pay for. when the two that we already have isn't being payed for because congress decided to use the money for something else. because congress didn't use the money in such a way to make it grow instead of just steal more money from the people.

the government can easily use part of the money they already have and buy non-voting stock in the fortune 500 companies.

[MissMelsWell]

Bad Iamson, bad...

really really bad.

I have a right to take care of my own health... I'm telling you how I want to do that.. I want to pay more taxes. I want that fund to take care of me when I might need it, AND when I don't need it, I want it to take care of others. Sounds charitable and "christian" to me. I want to live in a socially healthy society... we don't have that now... serve on a charity foundation for a hospital and you'll immediately see the the problem.

[Startraveler]

You do not have the right to dictate how I should see my money. After all I see all of my money as God's money which He gives me responsibility for.

Ah, I get it now. People without the money to cover their medical expenses are low on funds because God in His wisdom didn't see fit to give them enough to avoid bankruptcy. Cosmic natural selection.

i am against a doctor telling you according to law he cant help you. and yes this is in the bill that is on it's way to a senate vote. it provides for not sure, the wording but lets call it points, you basically allowed so many points each year and if a medical procedure goes above those points determined by how many years you have left to live according to a doctor the doctor won't be able to help you.

Is that before or after it says "Plans could also not include lifetime limits on coverage or annual limits on any benefits" ?

[danielost]

Ah, I get it now. People without the money to cover their medical expenses are low on funds because God in His wisdom didn't see fit to give them enough to avoid bankruptcy. Cosmic natural selection.

Is that before or after it says "Plans could also not include lifetime limits on coverage or annual limits on any benefits" ?

.

as long as you don't go over your points.

[Startraveler]

as long as you don't go over your points.

Source it or stop saying it. I'm not interested in hearing your interpretation of things you've already heard third-hand.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Startraveler

[IamsSon]

Bad Iamson, bad...

really really bad.

I have a right to take care of my own health... I'm telling you how I want to do that.. I want to pay more taxes. I want that fund to take care of me when I might need it, AND when I don't need it, I want it to take care of others. Sounds charitable and "christian" to me. I want to live in a socially healthy society... we don't have that now... serve on a charity foundation for a hospital and you'll immediately see the the problem.

Sorry, Mels, but in this instance I believe you are the one who is really bad. First of all, you are free to pay as much in taxes as you choose, there is no limit. Give 90% to the government if that is what you want and you can still live on the rest. Or even better, use an organization that has a better reputation than the US government when it comes to financial responsibility, but don't decide for me or anyone else how we should or should not spend the money we earn.

See that is my only problem with "Universal Care." I wish anyone and everyone could receive the care they need to be as healthy as technology allows. But to trust an organization that is fraught with waste and fraud, that is planning to finance part of this by stopping that waste and fraud, but that somehow is not interested in stopping that waste and fraud BEFORE it gets more money and more power, is irresponsibility bordering on CRIMINAL, Mels. You are supporting crime. THAT is bad.

Ask yourself this: "If the government is sooo interested in providing health insurance to all these poor citizens that it can't allow enough time for We The People to study the bill, then why is it the majority of the services for these poor citizens they are so concerned for will not come into effect until 2013?"

It's about power, it's about power, it's about power, it's about power. Helping a few poor slobs in the end is just a nice side effect. Heck the CBO has shown even after spending all of that money there will still be MILLIONS of citizens without health insurance.

Ah, I get it now. People without the money to cover their medical expenses are low on funds because God in His wisdom didn't see fit to give them enough to avoid bankruptcy. Cosmic natural selection.

No, it's about free citizens using THEIR money how they choose to use it. It's about preventing the Federal Government from gaining more power over citizens.

Edited October 16, 2009 by IamsSon

[+Sherapy]

sorry free education is a right

you do know education is socialized , right...Its not free we all pay for it out of our tax dollars....

[Startraveler]

First of all, you are free to pay as much in taxes as you choose, there is no limit. Give 90% to the government if that is what you want and you can still live on the rest.

What would be the point of that in the absence of the fiscal infrastructure she's talking about? Funding a particular program implies the existence of said program.

Ask yourself this: "If the government is sooo interested in providing health insurance to all these poor citizens that it can't allow enough time for We The People to study the bill...

I'm curious. The House bill has been out since July 14. How much have you read? How much more study time do you require?

[+Sherapy]

Sorry, Mels, but in this instance I believe you are the one who is really bad. First of all, you are free to pay as much in taxes as you choose, there is no limit. Give 90% to the government if that is what you want and you can still live on the rest. Or even better, use an organization that has a better reputation than the US government when it comes to financial responsibility.

See that is my only problem with "Universal Care." I wish anyone and everyone could receive the care they need to be as healthy as technology allows. But to trust an organization that is fraught with waste and fraud, that is planning to finance part of this by stopping that waste and fraud, but that somehow is not interested in stopping that waste and fraud BEFORE it gets more money and more power, is irresponsibility bordering on CRIMINAL, Mels. You are supporting crime. THAT is bad.

Ask yourself this: "If the government is sooo interested in providing health insurance to all these poor citizens that it can't allow enough time for We The People to study the bill, then why is it the majority of the services for these poor citizens they are so concerned for will not come into effect until 2013?"

It's about power, it's about power, it's about power, it's about power. Helping a few poor slobs in the end is just a nice side effect. Heck the CBO has shown even after spending all of that money there will still be MILLIONS of citizens without health insurance.

for you this is about your fear of the govt...but what the govt is proposing is some measure of fair trade, regulation via introducing competition .....as it is now the health industry is calling the shots and wants to continue doing so..they have good reason...the health industry is making a few a lot of money....

the proposal was For those who were to choose a public option they would be given a credit with the understanding they had to use the credit on health ins...If they took the credit and didn't have health ins. that would be subject to fine, I think that is only fair ,it seems you would want this too for one who is so afraid of waste and abuse............

but if I am not mistaken this fell through....

[IamsSon]

I'm curious. The House bill has been out since July 14. How much have you read? How much more study time do you require?

I'm curious too, how ridiculous are you willing to be?

Why was it that somehow Senator Baucus's office staff could not figure how to get his version of the Senate bill online without it taking two weeks?

I think you know whatever bill ends up being THE bill will be a combination of whatever comes out from the Senate and the House Bill and whatever else they decide to throw in behind closed doors,and Democratic Senators are trying to block posting the bill online.

What would be the point of that in the absence of the fiscal infrastructure she's talking about? Funding a particular program implies the existence of said program.

Well, then that supports my recommendation to support a different organization. The point is, she should have the FREEDOM to choose what to do with her money and so should I and so should all American citizens.

It's incredibly interesting and quite telling that you choose not to address the FACT that the U.S. Government wastes the citizen's money on fraud and outright waste. Why is that?

Edited October 16, 2009 by IamsSon

[Startraveler]

So you haven't read any of the three existing bills, despite the fact that two of them have been available for four months and one has been out for one month, even knowing that anything in the final bill will be present in these bills. But you're upset that you won't have enough time to read the final bill if by some chance you spontaneously develop an interest in reading it? Give me a break.

If you read the bills that exist now, you'll be able to skim through the final bill in a few hours once it's written.

It's incredibly interesting and quite telling that you choose not to address the FACT that the U.S. Government wastes the citizen's money on fraud and outright waste. Why is that?

Because we've already had this discussion. Eliminating waste means that somebody who's getting money now won't be. As an example, we can save $156 billion over the next decade by eliminating waste in the Medicare Advantage program--we overpay private insurers by 14% to get seniors health care, event though only 14 cents of every extra dollar goes toward benefits for those seniors. That's waste by anybody's definition. Except yours.

So the reason I ignore the subject with you is that I know you like railing against waste in the abstract but if a concrete example of it comes up you'll defend it. Hold on to your outrage.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Startraveler

[IamsSon]

So you haven't read any of the three existing bills, despite the fact that two of them have been available for four months and one has been out for one month, even knowing that anything in the final bill will be present in these bills. But you're upset that you won't have enough time to read the final bill if by some chance you spontaneously develop an interest in reading it? Give me a break.

If you read the bills that exist now, you'll be able to skim through the final bill in a few hours once it's written.

Because we've already had this discussion. Eliminating waste means that somebody who's getting money now won't be. As an example, we can save $156 billion over the next decade by eliminating waste in the Medicare Advantage program--we overpay private insurers by 14% to get seniors health care, event though only 14 cents of every extra dollar goes toward benefits for those seniors. That's waste by anybody's definition. Except yours.

So the reason I ignore the subject with you is that I know you like railing against waste in the abstract but if a concrete example of it comes up you'll defend it. Hold on to your outrage.

Since, like you said, we've already discussed the existing bills, it is incredibly ridiculous to be asking if I read it. If you want to be ridiculous go right ahead, I won't get in your way, but I also did not want to participate in your attempt.

Like I have said, it's funny that you and President Obama consider waste the thing that Senior Citizens and other Medicare recipients consider one of the best parts of Medicare. So how can it be pure waste? Can it be improved upon? Yes, it can. Why are these companies so wasteful? Because the government shells out the money like it's not it's own... oh wait, it ISN'T it's own money. It's being irresponsible with the citizens' money.

But hey, let's look at Medicare Plus. Oh yeah, let's give the government more control over health care!

Do you have a nice excuse for the $1,000 screw drivers too?

Edited October 16, 2009 by IamsSon