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eqgumby

Health care an earned right?

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Startraveler
Since, like you said, we've already discussed the existing bills, it is incredibly ridiculous to be asking if I read it.

I ask because all of our discussions left with the distinct impression you haven't read any of them.

Why are these companies so wasteful? Because the government shells out the money like it's not it's own... oh wait, it ISN'T it's own money. It's being irresponsible with the citizens' money.

Hence the reductions in payments to private Medicare Advantage providers in the bills. You call it irresponsible spending at the same time you praise it as one of the "best parts of Medicare." It's pretty clear that your interest is merely in railing against the government at all costs, without regard for the consistency of your arguments.

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Wolf MacCanine

Being that our government has the right to tax the citizens...once you pay your taxes...the money is no longer yours to specify what it goes for. Therefore,your tax money could be appropriated for all sorts of government run or funded things which you may or may not like or want funded. And since our government is secular,your religious affiliations or ideologies do not matter one bit.

The government is responsible for the general welfare and safety of it's citizens. Now...in order to be able to bring in the necessary tax monies to provide for the general welfare and safety of the citizens,the government needs to make sure that the citizens of the country are healthy enough to work. Now sure,you can claim that there are plenty who do not work and thereby abuse the system...but you also need to factor in those who do work and do not abuse the system...yet who cannot afford to have insurance coverage. If everyone pays into one system,everyone gets covered...plain and simple. No system will ever be perfect,yet we should at least make the attempt to have a system put in place and running...and apply changes to it as necessary in order to make it as perfect as possible.

The problem that I see is this...everything is tied in together. Without enough jobs,you will not be able to generate enough taxes to cover any system of health care,nor keep your economy afloat. This is our current problem. But one other problem is also tied into these...and that is the rampant greed of those who run the big corporations and insurance companies. As I said before,no system is perfect,and that includes capitalism. Every system needs some form of moderation,otherwise it will turn itself into a complete mess. Without oversight of some sort,corporations will set prices so high that those who make less money will not be able to afford anything. Without some sort of regulation,insurance companies can take much of your hard earned money and turn around and deny you for certain types of coverage. Everyone should be able to afford the basic necessities of life...food, health care, a roof over their heads, and the ability to have their home heated and cooled. To deny anyone these basics based upon the amount they can pay is unjust and inhumane.

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Michelle

I agree that we need major health care reforms, but I do understand Iams concern and lack of faith in the government.

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IamsSon

I agree that we need major health care reforms, but I do understand Iams concern and lack of faith in the government.

:huh:

I have a lack of faith? :o

Wait... can Christians have a lack of faith? :unsure:

:PThanks Michelle! Sorry couldn't help myself.

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danielost

you do know education is socialized , right...Its not free we all pay for it out of our tax dollars....

and we all benefit from people being educated. well we used to when the kids were actually being educated. but when they can no longer add 2 and 2 we are in trouble.

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Michelle

:huh:

I have a lack of faith? :o

Wait... can Christians have a lack of faith? :unsure:

:PThanks Michelle! Sorry couldn't help myself.

Imagine...someone being able to see both sides of an issue. :P:ph34r:

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eqgumby

I agree that we need major health care reforms, but I do understand Iams concern and lack of faith in the government.

So far this is as close to an answer to the original post as I have seen.

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IamsSon

Imagine...someone being able to see both sides of an issue. :P:ph34r:

So far this is as close to an answer to the original post as I have seen.

I doubt there is anyone who doesn't think something needs to be done. The split comes in what needs to be done and how. I believe "government" is an entity created to exercise power, and just like corporations, which are entities created to make money, don't "know" how to stop seeking more and more ways to make more and more money, government seeks to gain and exercise more and more power. Therefore, I believe the worst thing we can do is give the federal government more power. I believe the fact that most of the "oh so needed" services this bill supposedly addresses will not come into effect until 2013, along with the fact that millions of American citizens will still not be covered after all this money and power are given to the government are clear indications this is about power. Additionally, like I have stated, the U.S. government has a clear history of wasting money. Why should I support giving it more of my money? Why should I let it waste my money when I can put it to good use?

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Sherapy

and we all benefit from people being educated. well we used to when the kids were actually being educated. but when they can no longer add 2 and 2 we are in trouble.

its gonna depend on how you define educated...If I am to go off of your question you seem to be equating education with having the answer?

the measure of a quality education is not in memorizing the answer but understanding the question....in other words the catch phrase for education is accountability .....rather then quality ........

the less educated a culture is the easier it is to mold really good consumers.....who don't know how to ask questions.....or can see that they are being exploited...

They will actually support the exploiter 9 times out of 10 as they are too ignorant to know better.....:w00t:

Edited by S♥ ♥ ♥

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momentarylapseofreason

Oh, are you now also an anti-abortionist? After all, those innocent unborn children also have a right to life don't they? I mean if we all have a right to health, then we all have a right to life.

I am pro choice! And they are fetuses not children. They are potential children. They are fertilized cells. Research it. You guys are so concerned with pre-born but not those that are here with us. To me they count much more than 8 week old embryos. Defend the ones that are truly conscious and aware for a change!

I disagree, we don't have a right to health. You have a right to take care of your health, you have a right to care for yourself, you have a right to keep your money so you can care for yourself. You do not have the right to someone else's money to care for your health.

I completely and vehemently disagree. It is my duty to help and if that takes money so be it.I just would like to be assured that it really does go to help them and not in some already wealthy politicians pocket!

Under what? Under who?

As an American, you have the right to see your money as you will. You do not have the right to dictate how I should see my money. After all I see all of my money as God's money which He gives me responsibility for. Part of that responsibility is to provide for my family and I also see some of that money as being intended to further God's ministry. Does the fact that I see some of my money as being specifically for Christian Ministry mean I have the right to force you to spend your money on Christian Ministry? Why not?

Let god do his own work. If he's so powerful he doesn't need you to spread the bigotry

Ahh, the "You call yourself a Christian" card! Funny how it always comes out! Yes, I am a Christian and as a Christian I should help anyone who needs it and I do. AS A CHRISTIAN. NOT AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. As a Christian I do not need the government to force me to help someone. As an American Citizen, I have the right to defend myself from the tyrannical treatment of my or any other government. As an American Citizen I have the right to protect my property, even from ESPECIALLY FROM, the government.

Well for there being so many Christians in this country it sure is a place of greed & poverty. But of course you are a "true Christian"-as far as I'm concerned republican and christian is an oxymoron

LEGALLY, no one can be turned away from medical care, so exactly where are these children who are being LEGALLY denied medical treatment?

But people shouldn't lose what the worked for to get help. It's ridiculous!

:w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

Suddenly you're arguing we're a Christian Nation!? You truly have hit a new low. Can I use this quote next time you're arguing we're not a Christian Nation?

Yes, it is a Christian nation with a secular run government as the founders intended and i guess that bothers the "hell" out of you, but I don't see Repubs as authentic Christians. This country wasn't founded by evangelicals like you all like to pretend.

Unfortunately for you, I have stated often that the United States is not a Christian Nation. Yes, it is based on Christian values, which include the idea that adults are responsible for their actions and for providing for their offspring.

People that are mentally ill or have ill children or get ill are not responsinle for those "actions". If your prayers really worked we wouldn't need docs or health insurance would we?

Like I have said, as a Christian, I do help others because I WANT TO, because I feel it is what God wants me to do, not because the government forces me to. But if the government takes away my income and uses it to buy $10,000 screw drivers and to buy votes, and to give Congressmen raises, and to pay for their vacations and their first-class tickets on boondoggles then I have less with which to help others.

I partially agree but you shouldn't choose whom you decide to help, people that think like me would be in trouble in that case (as would gays, atheists and anyone diffrent in world-view and that's a fact!). I don't care what you believe it is your action or inaction that counts

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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Mr  Honeybadger

you do know education is socialized , right...Its not free we all pay for it out of our tax dollars....

True. But look at the sorry state of our public education system.

If / when I have kids, I will seriously consider home schooling.

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MissMelsWell

I understand a lack of faith in government too... I think government positively REEKS. HOWEVER, as a nation, we have to do something about this issue. "Take care of yourself" isn't a good or acceptable answer when in many cases, doing so is damn near impossible. Why should we as Americans risk EVERYTHING we've worked hard for over a health issue? No one else in the world has to. Maybe this is one of many reasons America is having ISSUES right now.

I'd like to know what anti-health care people think should be done? so far I haven't been hit by a bus today, but if I am... what will you do to ensure I can recover and go back to work pumping money into the economy? Because if I get hit by a bus today, this afternoon... I'll never contribute to the economy again. That's not only a disservice to me, but it's a disservice to my community and my country.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Caesar

I think Fox News has something on this, I'll have to watch it to see what they think, then I'll post my opinion. :unsure2:

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momentarylapseofreason

Yes, I also agree that government (mostly)reeks. The whole system reeks. Lobbyists reek. Unlimited greed reeks.

Maybe if we had a truly transperant government that truly serves its citizens (and to help citizens help themselves)there would not be so much bickering.

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momentarylapseofreason

I understand a lack of faith in government too... I think government positively REEKS. HOWEVER, as a nation, we have to do something about this issue. "Take care of yourself" isn't a good or acceptable answer when in many cases, doing so is damn near impossible. Why should we as Americans risk EVERYTHING we've worked hard for over a health issue? No one else in the world has to. Maybe this is one of many reasons America is having ISSUES right now.

I'd like to know what anti-health care people think should be done? so far I haven't been hit by a bus today, but if I am... what will you do to ensure I can recover and go back to work pumping money into the economy? Because if I get hit by a bus today, this afternoon... I'll never contribute to the economy again. That's not only a disservice to me, but it's a disservice to my community and my country.

Excellent point! Anxious to hear an answer but some people here feel you should be responsible for your actions, namely walking into the street and getting hit by a bus. Tough luck they say, not their problem (yet)

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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MissMelsWell

Excellent point! Anxious to hear an answer but some people here feel you should be responsible for your actions, namely walking into the street and getting hit by a bus. Tough luck they say, not their problem (yet)

I use being hit by a bus as an analogy (presumably, the city would have to care for me if I were hit by a bus, that's their responsibility) ... but, maybe like one of my best friends, 10 minutes from now my appendix bursts, I go septic, and have to be in the hospital for 3 weeks while they do three surgeries to remove a whole lot of my small intestines. Appendix's burst, even in rock solid healthy people like me, there's no predicting it, there's no preventing it, it just happens...

Oh, and I probably went septic becaues I know I don't have health insurance and dont' want to accidentally go to the hospital for a tummy ache. Another BAD side effect to not having some kind of safety net for health insurance... people tend to wait too long to get help, then it REALLY costs when conditions are left to go critical.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Mr  Honeybadger

I'd like to know what anti-health care people think should be done? so far I haven't been hit by a bus today, but if I am... what will you do to ensure I can recover and go back to work pumping money into the economy? Because if I get hit by a bus today, this afternoon... I'll never contribute to the economy again. That's not only a disservice to me, but it's a disservice to my community and my country.

My answer ? An insurance policy that will protect you in the event of a serious injury or life threatening illness but not for minor sniffles and sneezes. This type of policy is readily available and affordable. If you get the flu ?? Stay home in bed. If you get hit by a bus ? Go to the hospital because you're covered.

Where I work we have a high deductible HSA plan. It works great. I wish the government could adopt something similar to that. It's a great system.

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momentarylapseofreason

My answer ? An insurance policy that will protect you in the event of a serious injury or life threatening illness but not for minor sniffles and sneezes. This type of policy is readily available and affordable. If you get the flu ?? Stay home in bed. If you get hit by a bus ? Go to the hospital because you're covered.

Where I work we have a high deductible HSA plan. It works great. I wish the government could adopt something similar to that. It's a great system.

Can everyone employed afford it?

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Pseudo Intellectual

you do know education is socialized , right...Its not free we all pay for it out of our tax dollars....

Do you really think the US public education system is even remotely okay?

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momentarylapseofreason

Here are some interesting opinions of which I agree with:

In the most advanced nation in the world, there are 47 million people (at least) without health care coverage. In a nation that spends almost 1/4 of its gross domestic product (GDP) on defense, it is difficult to explain how this could be. Will we be able to right the moral wrong of too many uninsured once President-elect Obama takes office? I sure hope so.

It is my belief that health care is a fundamental right of all people; a human right, in fact. Artcile 25 (1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

How can we continue to justify not providing health care to all people when it is so clearly a fundamental right, just like food, clothing and a safe place to live? In a country where corporate greed seems to be the rule instead of community charity, when will people wake up to the fact that our brothers and sisters, neighbors and friends are going without the basic necessities of life?

When will we protest because bank executives, whose banks were bailed out with taxpayer money this year, last year took home $1.6 billion in salaries and bonuses?

When will we say ENOUGH to the fact that over 22,000 people die each year in the United States alone because they don't have health care coverage?

I think the time is now, and I hope you do too.

Dr. Darrell Spurlock is a nurse, academic and writer. His main interests are in health policy, social and health research, human rights and social justice. He is passionate about the idea that all people have a right to the best possible life, including high-quality health care.

Of course health care is a human right. As an European I see the USA do not abide to the human rights. We in Europe are covered the way you speak about in this post, not as a blessing, but because we fought for it. Politicians are rotten and corrupt; they do not care about people, so that to achieve something the people have to fight hard for it. A few were the exceptions to prove the rule. Politicians are not at their posts because of any special merit, they are there only because we voted them, and they usually take the opportunity to abuse and get rich with our (tax) money, stealing it one way or another. Being so, I understand even less how you voted on b****** Bush for a second term when you were angry at him for so many good reasons. You vote mostly on the party that makes poverty nationwide. If you keep voting on them you will NEVER ever have medical care. A country without social welfare is NOT a democracy but you still believe you are a democracy. You were, yes, in Lincoln’s times, but times have changed much since and you did not follow. When the technology is not used for the people it is useless and means nothing but money for the rich. You are exploited by your enterprises. You pay their taxes and give your lives for them. It is unbelievable that a country where a person that cannot pay for a heart is condemned to die and the people believe this to be democratic!

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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Sherapy

True. But look at the sorry state of our public education system.

If / when I have kids, I will seriously consider home schooling.

I do home school, via a public charter.....which happens to be about the best education a kid could get, now a days, short of living with college professors....

The kicker is this: its gov't. funded public education..............in the state of CA which is the worst educational system in the US in my opinion.....

There is no reason we shouldn't have universal health care....

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momentarylapseofreason

again:

It is my belief that health care is a fundamental right of all people; a human right, in fact. Artcile 25 (1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

You may get help in a hospital but if you lost shelter & work because you got ill............well,hmmmm

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Pseudo Intellectual
there are 47 million people (at least) without health care coverage.

Please go back a few pages. I've already disproved that claim. :sleepy:

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Sherapy

Do you really think the US public education system is even remotely okay?

no, it sucks for the most part, but its well on its way to getting better and it is because of people like me tax payers and other home schooler's who created a better way and refused to settle for less , it speaks for itself, whats not to try, .... .......In my state which is by far the worst their is as far as education goes.....Our govt. publically funded charter is called Little Harvard, it truly is about the best a kid can get in education, here ....

The kids speak for the quality by example....

So lets get together a health care plan we as a society set the standard by what we do or don't do about it..........

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momentarylapseofreason

Please go back a few pages. I've already disproved that claim. :sleepy:

That 46 million number — which to be exact, is actually 45.7 million — comes from the U.S. Census Bureau, which releases estimates of the uninsured yearly. That estimate is for 2007, and the data were released in 2008. (The 2008 data are scheduled for release on Sept. 10, 2009.)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/18/barack-obama/number-those-without-health-insurance-about-46-mil/

It's even worse because so many have lost their jobs

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