Atlantis

[Agonaces of Susa]

Mattshark,

You are conveniently forgetting about the electromagnetic reversal of retrograde rotation which happens to spinning magnets such as the Earth:

"According to the legend, the ancient peoples [of Lake Titicaca] had been without light for many days." -- Clive L. N. Ruggles, archaeoastronomer, 2005

"It is said that in this province [Titicaca] the people of ancient times tell of being without light from the heavens for many days, and all of the local inhabitants were astonished, confused, and frightened to have total darkness for such a long time. Finally, the people of the Island of Titicaca saw the Sun come up one morning out of that crag with extraordinary radiance." -- Bernabé Cobo, historian, 1990

"Could the [American] Indians on this continent know the connection between the sun appearing over the horizon, Eastern horizon, dropping down, again appearing, dropping down, and all the continent, this continent, bursting in flame? How could they know the connection? So they could not invent the stories. Something must have happened." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

"In the tomb of Senmut, the architect of Queen Hatshepsut, a panel on the ceiling shows the celestial sphere with 'a reversed orientation' or the southern sky. The end of the Middle Kingdom antedated the time of Queen Hatshepsut by several centuries. The astronomical ceiling presenting a reversed orientation must have been a venerated chart, made obsolete a number of centuries earlier. 'A characteristic feature of the Senmut ceiling is the astronomically objectionable orientation of the souther panel.' The center of this panel is occupied by the Orion-Sirius group, in which Orion appears west of Sirius instead of east. 'The orientating of the southern panel is such that a person in the tomb looking at it has to lift his head and face north, not south.' 'With the reversed orientation of the south panel, Orion, the most conspicuous constellation of the southern sky, appeared to be moving eastward, i.e., in the wrong direction.' [Pogo, A., 1930]" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The most incredible story." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"Uranus has the sun rising and setting neither in the east nor in the west. So it is not a law that a planet of the solar system must rotate from west to east and that the sun must rise in the east." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The signs of the Chinese zodiac have the strange peculiarity of proceeding in a retrograde direction, that is, against the course of the sun." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"The Chinese say that it is only since a new order of things has come about that the stars move from east to west." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"... when the Duke of Lu-yang [Huai-nan-tse] was at war against Han, during the battle the sun went down. The Duke, swinging his spear, beckoned to the sun, whereupon the sun, for his sake, came back and passed through three solar mansions." -- Alfred Forke, philosopher, 1925

"According to a different account, which found favour with the Latin poets, the sun reversed his course in the sky, not in order to demonstrate the right of Atreus to the crown, but on the contrary to mark his disgust and horror at the king for murdering his nephews and dishing up their mangled limbs to their father Thyestes at table." -- James G. Frazer, translator, 1920

"As told by Huaman Poma, five such ages had preceded that in which he lived. The first was an age of Viracochas, an age of gods, of holiness, of life without death, although at the same time it was devoid of inventions and refinements; the second was an age of skin-clad giants, the Huari Runa, or 'Indigenes,' worshippers of Viracocha; third came the age of Puron Runa, or 'Common Men,' living without culture; fourth, that of Auca Runa, 'Warriors,' and fifth that of the Inca rule, ended by the coming of the Spaniards." -- Hartley B. Alexander, historian, 1920

"Harakhte [The Sun] ... he rises in the west...." -- James H. Breasted, egyptologist, 1906

"The travelling toward the east [of the sun] and the disappearance in the east ... must be understood literally...." -- Eduard Seler, anthropologist, 1903

"The nations of Culhua, or Mexico, says Gomara, who wrote about the middle of the sixteenth century, believe according to their hieroglyphical paintings, that, previous to the sun which now enlightens them, four had already been successively extinguished. These four suns are as many ages, in which our species has been annihilated by inundations, by earthquakes, by a general conflagration, and by the effect of destroying tempests." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1814

"That the sun will not rise to-morrow is no less intelligible a proposition, and implies no more contradiction, than the affirmation, that it will rise." -- David Hume, philosopher, 1772

"The problem set forth by the [Royal Berlin] Academy [of Sciences] is expressed in the following terms: Whether the Earth in its Rotation around its Axis, by which it brings about the alternation of day and night, has undergone any alteration since the first period of its origin. What may be the cause of this, and what can make us certain of it? The question may be investigated historically. This may be done by examining monuments of antiquity dating from remotest times...." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1754

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests!" -- Quran 55:17

"The inhabitants of this country [Egypt] say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose." -- Gaius J. Solinus, grammarian, 3rd century

"Soles fuerre quinque." [There were five suns] -- Lucius Ampelius, tutor, date unknown

"O all-enduring Phoebus, though thou didst shrink afar, and in mid-sky didst bury the darkened day, still thou didst set too late." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"Whither, O father of the lands and skies, before whose rising thick night with all her glories flees, whither doest turn thy course and why dost blot out the day in mid-Olympus? Why, O Phoebus, dost snatch away thy face? Not yet does Vesper, twilight’s messenger, summon the fires of night; not yet does thy wheel, turning its western goal, bid free thy steeds from their completed task; not yet as day fades into night has the third trump sounded; the ploughman with oxen yet unwearied stands amazed at his supper-hour’s quick coming. What has driven thee from thy heavenly course? What cause form their fixed track has turned aside thy horses? Is the prison-house of Dis thrown wide and are the conquered Giants again essaying war?" -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The Zodiac, which, making passage through the sacred stars, crosses the zones obliquely, guide and sign-bearer for the slow-moving years, falling itself, shall see the fallen constellations; the Ram, who, ere kindly spring has come, gives back the sails to the warm West-wind, headlong shall plunge into the waves o’er which he had borne the trembling Helle; the Bull, who before him on bright horns bears the Hyades, shall drag the Twins down with him and the Crab’s wide-curving claws; Alcides’ Lion, with burning heat inflamed, once more shall fall down from the sky; the Virgin shall fall to the earth she once abandoned, and the Scales of justice with their weights shall fall and with them shall drag the fierce Scorpion down; old Chiron, who sets the feathered shafts upon Haemonian chord, shall lose his shafts from the snapped bowstring; the frigid Goat who brings back sluggish winter, shall fall and break thy urn, whoe’er thou art; with thee shall fall the Fish, last of the stars of heaven, and the Wain, which was ne’er bathed by the sea, shall be plunged beneath the all-engulfing waves; the slippery Serpent which, gliding like a river, separates the Bears, shall fall, and icy Cynosura, the Lesser Bear, together with the Dragon vast, congealed with cold; and that slow-moving drive of his wain, Arctophylax, no longer fixed in place, shall fall." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The sun set in the East." -- Apollodoros, Scholium on the Iliad: Book II, ~143 B.C.

"And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time. ... And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once. ... Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to-the life of man; few survivors of the race are left, and those who remain become the subjects of several novel and remarkable phenomena ...." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.

"The reversal which takes place from time to time of the motion of the universe. ... Of all changes of the heavenly motions, we may consider this to be the greatest and most complete. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There is a time when God himself guides and helps to roll the world in its course; and there is a time, on the completion of a certain cycle, when he lets go, and the world being a living creature, and having originally received intelligence from its author and creator turns about and by an inherent necessity revolves in the opposite direction." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. ... how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"Then, it was then that Zeus changed the radiant paths of the stars, and the light of the sun, and the bright face of dawn; and the sun drove across the western back of the sky with hot flame from heaven's fires, while the rain-clouds went northward and Ammon's lands [Egypt] grew parched and faint, not knowing moisture, robbed of heaven's fairest showers of rain." --Euripides, playwright, Electra, 408 B.C.

"... here also everyone bows down before him who reversed the circuit of the sun." -- Sophocles, playwright, Fragment 738, 410 B.C.

"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotos, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"Let not the sun go down and disappear into darkness." -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book II: 413

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" -- Matthew 24:29

"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7

"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8

"And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz." -- II Kings 20:11

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua 10:13

"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Swede]

A pleasure to meet you.

I get it and I disagree.

Perhaps. And also our dating techniques are flawed.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110135411.htm

I am not familiar with Cayce's work although I am told it has to do with the paranormal.

Then I take it you don't know about all the thousands of mummies that tested positive for tobacco and cocaine.

Balabanova, S., Parsche, S., and Pirsig, W., First Identification of Drugs in Egyptian Mummies, Naturwissenschaften, Volume 79, Number 8, Page 358, Aug 1992

Balabanova, S., Teschler-Nicola, M., Strouhal, E., Evidence of Nicotine in Scalp Hair of Naturally Mummified Bodies From the Christian Sayala (Egyptian-Nubian), Anthropologischer Anzeiger; Bericht über die Biologisch-Anthropologische Literatur, Volume 52, Number 2, Pages 167-173, Jun 1994

Corliss, J.R., Evidence of Tobacco In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 95, Sep-Oct 1994

Parsche, F., and Nerlich, A., Presence of Drugs In Different Tissues of an Egyptian Mummy, Ferensius' Journal of Analytical Chemistry, Volume 352, Number 3-4, Pages 380-384, Jan 1995

Mystery of the Cocaine Mummies Transcript, Discovery Channel, 1996

Corliss, J.R., Tobacco and Cocaine In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 111, May-Jun 1997

Re: Dating techniques are flawed - The credibility of your position is endangered by your own "evidence".

1) Said reference documents the climatic conditions of Antarctica circa 44,000 BP. And that those conditions have been, within relative variables, sustained.

2) Said reference (if proven accurate) would demonstrate a more brief, rather than lengthy, period for evolutionary processes. Hence, no "ancient mankind".

3) The "dating" discussed is related to genetic factors. You will notice that they refer to other dating methods to verify their findings. Dating methods such as radiocarbon, potassium/argon, thermo-luminescence, optically stimulated thermo-luminesnce (OSL), dendrochronology, paleo-magnetism, etc. are routinely utilized and cross referenced to evaluate age significant elements.

[Agonaces of Susa]

...

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Agonaces of Susa]

Re: Dating techniques are flawed - The credibility of your position is endangered by your own "evidence".

1) Said reference documents the climatic conditions of Antarctica circa 44,000 BP. And that those conditions have been, within relative variables, sustained.

And? Other scientists disagree.

2) Said reference (if proven accurate) would demonstrate a more brief, rather than lengthy, period for evolutionary processes. Hence, no "ancient mankind".

There hasn't been evolution of one animal into another on Earth for the past 3.6 billion years. What have archaea evolved into?

We have evidence from all over the world that shows Homo sapiens are hundreds of millions of years old.

3) The "dating" discussed is related to genetic factors. You will notice that they refer to other dating methods to verify their findings. Dating methods such as radiocarbon, potassium/argon, thermo-luminescence, optically stimulated thermo-luminesnce (OSL), dendrochronology, paleo-magnetism, etc. are routinely utilized and cross referenced to evaluate age significant elements.

Well the scientists in the article believe our dating techniques are flawed and that biological organisms are older than we have assumed.

The scientists say the conventional dates need to be multiplied by a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 6.

So that means older not younger.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Mattshark]

That would indicate that the ancient Egyptians had more advanced botanical laboratories, tobbacco processing, and nicotine extraction capabilities than we do today.

No it doesn't it suggests that you can conjecture with out reason. Egyptian technology was with out doubt not ahead of ours.

If true, all of this contradicts the myths and fairy tales that we are taught in school.

Not really, we really did get tobacco from the America's in Europe. Also the tabacco supposedly from China is Nicotiana chinensis which is a synonym for Nicotiana x tabacum, cultivated tobacco.

If the Egyptians were in fact smoking tobbacco from Namibia, that means the extent of the Egyptian Empire included the whole of Africa.

Nicotiana africana is not native to Egypt nor is there any physical evidence it has ever been in Egypt.

Furthermore, Nicotiana africana wasn't discovered until the 1980s.

Well we know the didn't, there is no evidence of them in Kenya for example for a reason Horrific conjecture again. There is no evidence of them going to Namibia and the late discovery of the species in no way offers support to such a spurious idea.

If true, it would once again indicate that the ancients knew more about biology than we do.

Utter rubbish, maybe more than you, but modern biology is far in advance of ancient Egyptian, you a place where they thought the heart was for thinking with. Even reading that piece it doesn't suggest that.

Since when does Balabanova favor that explanation? I remember her specifically denying that possibility.

Denying a possibility like that is ridiculous though.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Mattshark

[Agonaces of Susa]

Egyptian technology was with out doubt not ahead of ours.

I'll believe that after you transmute lead into gold and have a pyramid in your back yard.

Not really, we really did get tobacco from the America's in Europe.

So you think the Egyptians got their tobacco from America? So do I.

Also the tabacco supposedly from China is Nicotiana chinensis which is a synonym for Nicotiana x tabacum, cultivated tobacco.

So Egyptian explorers made their way to China?

Well we know the didn't, there is no evidence of them in Kenya for example for a reason Horrific conjecture again. There is no evidence of them going to Namibia and the late discovery of the species in no way offers support to such a spurious idea.

I agree 100%.

Denying a possibility like that is ridiculous though.

If you're going to speculate and fantasize about contamination, why not be consistent and say all samples in history have been contaminated?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Mattshark]

And? Other scientists disagree.

Who? Show me some good scientific papers in reputable journals.

There hasn't been evolution of one animal into another on Earth for the past 3.6 billion years. What have archaea evolved into?

Does the term straw man mean anything to you? Do you even know what evolution is? The second best way to sound ignorant on evolution, well done.

Well the scientists in the article believe our dating techniques are flawed and that biological organisms are older than we have assumed.

The scientists say the convential dates need to be multiplied by a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 6.

So that means older not younger.

Yes genetic dating techniques, how on earth can you conject that too radiometric dating? Simple answer is you can't.

[Mattshark]

I'll believe that after you transmute lead into gold and have a pyramid in your back yard.

How about the pyramid at la Louvre, way ahead of what Egypt can do. And no the couldn't turn one element into another.

So you think the Egyptians got their tobbacco from America? So do I.

No evidence of tabacco.

So Egyptian explorers made their way to China?

So? Totally different, there was no silk road to the cape.

If you're going to speculate and fantasize about contamination, why not be consistent and say all samples in history have been contaminated?

Does the term parsimony mean anything to you?

[Mattshark]

Mattshark,

You are conveniently forgetting about the electromagnetic reversal of retrograde rotation which happens to spinning magnets such as the Earth:

"According to the legend, the ancient peoples [of Lake Titicaca] had been without light for many days." -- Clive L. N. Ruggles, archaeoastronomer, 2005

"It is said that in this province [Titicaca] the people of ancient times tell of being without light from the heavens for many days, and all of the local inhabitants were astonished, confused, and frightened to have total darkness for such a long time. Finally, the people of the Island of Titicaca saw the Sun come up one morning out of that crag with extraordinary radiance." -- Bernabé Cobo, historian, 1990

"Could the [American] Indians on this continent know the connection between the sun appearing over the horizon, Eastern horizon, dropping down, again appearing, dropping down, and all the continent, this continent, bursting in flame? How could they know the connection? So they could not invent the stories. Something must have happened." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966

"In the tomb of Senmut, the architect of Queen Hatshepsut, a panel on the ceiling shows the celestial sphere with 'a reversed orientation' or the southern sky. The end of the Middle Kingdom antedated the time of Queen Hatshepsut by several centuries. The astronomical ceiling presenting a reversed orientation must have been a venerated chart, made obsolete a number of centuries earlier. 'A characteristic feature of the Senmut ceiling is the astronomically objectionable orientation of the souther panel.' The center of this panel is occupied by the Orion-Sirius group, in which Orion appears west of Sirius instead of east. 'The orientating of the southern panel is such that a person in the tomb looking at it has to lift his head and face north, not south.' 'With the reversed orientation of the south panel, Orion, the most conspicuous constellation of the southern sky, appeared to be moving eastward, i.e., in the wrong direction.' [Pogo, A., 1930]" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The most incredible story." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"Uranus has the sun rising and setting neither in the east nor in the west. So it is not a law that a planet of the solar system must rotate from west to east and that the sun must rise in the east." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1950

"The signs of the Chinese zodiac have the strange peculiarity of proceeding in a retrograde direction, that is, against the course of the sun." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"The Chinese say that it is only since a new order of things has come about that the stars move from east to west." -- Hans S. Bellamy, author, 1936

"... when the Duke of Lu-yang [Huai-nan-tse] was at war against Han, during the battle the sun went down. The Duke, swinging his spear, beckoned to the sun, whereupon the sun, for his sake, came back and passed through three solar mansions." -- Alfred Forke, philosopher, 1925

"According to a different account, which found favour with the Latin poets, the sun reversed his course in the sky, not in order to demonstrate the right of Atreus to the crown, but on the contrary to mark his disgust and horror at the king for murdering his nephews and dishing up their mangled limbs to their father Thyestes at table." -- James G. Frazer, translator, 1920

"As told by Huaman Poma, five such ages had preceded that in which he lived. The first was an age of Viracochas, an age of gods, of holiness, of life without death, although at the same time it was devoid of inventions and refinements; the second was an age of skin-clad giants, the Huari Runa, or 'Indigenes,' worshippers of Viracocha; third came the age of Puron Runa, or 'Common Men,' living without culture; fourth, that of Auca Runa, 'Warriors,' and fifth that of the Inca rule, ended by the coming of the Spaniards." -- Hartley B. Alexander, historian, 1920

"Harakhte [The Sun] ... he rises in the west...." -- James H. Breasted, egyptologist, 1906

"The travelling toward the east [of the sun] and the disappearance in the east ... must be understood literally...." -- Eduard Seler, anthropologist, 1903

"The nations of Culhua, or Mexico, says Gomara, who wrote about the middle of the sixteenth century, believe according to their hieroglyphical paintings, that, previous to the sun which now enlightens them, four had already been successively extinguished. These four suns are as many ages, in which our species has been annihilated by inundations, by earthquakes, by a general conflagration, and by the effect of destroying tempests." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1814

"That the sun will not rise to-morrow is no less intelligible a proposition, and implies no more contradiction, than the affirmation, that it will rise." -- David Hume, philosopher, 1772

"The problem set forth by the [Royal Berlin] Academy [of Sciences] is expressed in the following terms: Whether the Earth in its Rotation around its Axis, by which it brings about the alternation of day and night, has undergone any alteration since the first period of its origin. What may be the cause of this, and what can make us certain of it? The question may be investigated historically. This may be done by examining monuments of antiquity dating from remotest times...." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1754

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"Lord of the two Easts, and Lord of the two Wests!" -- Quran 55:17

"The inhabitants of this country [Egypt] say that they have it from their ancestors that the sun now sets where it formerly rose." -- Gaius J. Solinus, grammarian, 3rd century

"Soles fuerre quinque." [There were five suns] -- Lucius Ampelius, tutor, date unknown

"O all-enduring Phoebus, though thou didst shrink afar, and in mid-sky didst bury the darkened day, still thou didst set too late." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"Whither, O father of the lands and skies, before whose rising thick night with all her glories flees, whither doest turn thy course and why dost blot out the day in mid-Olympus? Why, O Phoebus, dost snatch away thy face? Not yet does Vesper, twilight’s messenger, summon the fires of night; not yet does thy wheel, turning its western goal, bid free thy steeds from their completed task; not yet as day fades into night has the third trump sounded; the ploughman with oxen yet unwearied stands amazed at his supper-hour’s quick coming. What has driven thee from thy heavenly course? What cause form their fixed track has turned aside thy horses? Is the prison-house of Dis thrown wide and are the conquered Giants again essaying war?" -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The Zodiac, which, making passage through the sacred stars, crosses the zones obliquely, guide and sign-bearer for the slow-moving years, falling itself, shall see the fallen constellations; the Ram, who, ere kindly spring has come, gives back the sails to the warm West-wind, headlong shall plunge into the waves o’er which he had borne the trembling Helle; the Bull, who before him on bright horns bears the Hyades, shall drag the Twins down with him and the Crab’s wide-curving claws; Alcides’ Lion, with burning heat inflamed, once more shall fall down from the sky; the Virgin shall fall to the earth she once abandoned, and the Scales of justice with their weights shall fall and with them shall drag the fierce Scorpion down; old Chiron, who sets the feathered shafts upon Haemonian chord, shall lose his shafts from the snapped bowstring; the frigid Goat who brings back sluggish winter, shall fall and break thy urn, whoe’er thou art; with thee shall fall the Fish, last of the stars of heaven, and the Wain, which was ne’er bathed by the sea, shall be plunged beneath the all-engulfing waves; the slippery Serpent which, gliding like a river, separates the Bears, shall fall, and icy Cynosura, the Lesser Bear, together with the Dragon vast, congealed with cold; and that slow-moving drive of his wain, Arctophylax, no longer fixed in place, shall fall." -- Lucius A. Seneca, philosopher statesman, 1st century

"The sun set in the East." -- Apollodoros, Scholium on the Iliad: Book II, ~143 B.C.

"And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time. ... And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once. ... Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to-the life of man; few survivors of the race are left, and those who remain become the subjects of several novel and remarkable phenomena ...." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesmen, 360 B.C.

"The reversal which takes place from time to time of the motion of the universe. ... Of all changes of the heavenly motions, we may consider this to be the greatest and most complete. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There is a time when God himself guides and helps to roll the world in its course; and there is a time, on the completion of a certain cycle, when he lets go, and the world being a living creature, and having originally received intelligence from its author and creator turns about and by an inherent necessity revolves in the opposite direction." -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. ... how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus. " -- Plato, philosopher, The Statesman, 360 B.C.

"Then, it was then that Zeus changed the radiant paths of the stars, and the light of the sun, and the bright face of dawn; and the sun drove across the western back of the sky with hot flame from heaven's fires, while the rain-clouds went northward and Ammon's lands [Egypt] grew parched and faint, not knowing moisture, robbed of heaven's fairest showers of rain." --Euripides, playwright, Electra, 408 B.C.

"... here also everyone bows down before him who reversed the circuit of the sun." -- Sophocles, playwright, Fragment 738, 410 B.C.

"Thus the whole period is eleven thousand three hundred and forty years; in all of which time (they said) they had had no king who was a god in human form, nor had there been any such either before or after those years among the rest of the kings of Egypt. Four times in this period (so they told me) the sun rose contrary to experience; twice he came up where he now goes down, and twice went down where he now comes up." -- Herodotos, historian, Book II, ~440-420 B.C.

"Let not the sun go down and disappear into darkness." -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book II: 413

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" -- Matthew 24:29

"Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for there is no answer of God." -- Micah 3:6-7

"And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:" -- Amos 8:9

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down." -- Isaiah 38:8

"And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz." -- II Kings 20:11

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed..." -- Joshua 10:13

"Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." -- Joshua 10:13

Actually TS, no I didn't, it just happens it was debunked last time you where here before you where banned.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Mattshark

[Agonaces of Susa]

Who? Show me some good scientific papers in reputable journals.

I refer you to the customarily ignored references posted above.

Does the term straw man mean anything to you?

Yes. Evolution is a straw man because it is a flimsy and falsified hypothesis.

Do you even know what evolution is?

Yes: a myth.

Yes genetic dating techniques, how on earth can you conject that too radiometric dating? Simple answer is you can't.

Scientists say radiometric dating is flawed as well.

[Swede]

...

I am rather afraid that your interpretation of this article is less than complete.

[Mattshark]

I refer you to the customarily ignored references posted above.

That isn't a paper. Or relevant to anything other than DNA.

Yes. Evolution is a straw man because it is a flimsy and falsified hypothesis.

Sorry TS its an observable fact

Yes: a myth.

Be a man an admit you have no idea.

Scientists say radiometric dating is flawed as well.

Where?

I am rather afraid that your interpretation of this article is less than complete.

Do you remember Total Science Swede?

[Agonaces of Susa]

How about the pyramid at la Louvre, way ahead of what Egypt can do.

LOL. Seriously? You must be joking.

And no the couldn't turn one element into another.

History and science demonstrate otherwise.

They could indeed transmute lead into gold just as Rutherford transmuted nitrogen into oxygen and hydrogen.

"For many centuries scholars thought that chemical elements were stable and could not be transformed. This is why the alchemists were regarded as dreamers, charlatans, or idiots. But in the year 1919 the great English physicist Rutherford sided with the alchemists and transmuted nitrogen into oxygen and hydrogen by bombarding it with helium. That was the day of the vindication of the alchemical doctrine of transmutation." -- Andrew Tomas, author, 1971

And furthermore they already had an Atomic Theory and Periodic Table.

"It is noteworthy that, according to ancient alchemy, gold was made from mercury or lead. In the periodic table of elements, the atomic number of gold is 79, that of mercury 80, and of lead 82 -- in other words they are neighbors. It was Mendeleyeff who in 1879 first formulated a table of the elements and arranged them in order of increasing weight according to their atomic structure. The question is -- had the alchemists discovered the table before Mendeleyeff?" -- Andrew Tomas, author, 1971

No evidence of tabacco.

It's tobacco not "tabacco" and there is 6000 samples of evidence of it.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Mattshark]

LOL. Seriously? You must be joking.

How many glass and steel structures does ancient Egypt have exactly?

History and science demonstrate otherwise.

They could indeed trasmute lead into gold just as Rutherford transmuted nitrogen into oxygen.

"For many centuries scholars thought that chemical elements were stable and could not be transformed. This is why the alchemists were regarded as dreamers, charlatans, or idiots. But in the year 1919 the great English physicist Rutherford sided with the alchemists and transmuted nitrogen into oxygen and hydrogen by bombarding it with helium. That was the day of the vindication of the alchemical doctrine of transmutation." -- Andrew Tomas, author, 1971

And furthermore they already had an Atomic Theory and Periodic Table.

"It is noteworthy that, according to ancient alchemy, gold was made from mercury or lead. In the periodic table of elements, the atomic number of gold is 79, that of mercury 80, and of lead 82 -- in other words they are neighbors. It was Mendeleyeff who in 1879 first formulated a table of the elements and arranged them in order of increasing weight according to their atomic structure. The question is -- had the alchemists discovered the table before Mendeleyeff?" -- Andrew Tomas, author, 1971

Andrew Tomas: neither scientist nor historian, now if it was accounting he'd be a decent source.

It's tobacco not "tabacco" and there is 6000 samples of evidence of it.

Where? From ancient Egypt common TS, cough up.

[Agonaces of Susa]

How many glass and steel structures does ancient Egypt have exactly?

Well after the ancient atomic war in the Libyan Desert there seems to be an infinite amount of glass structures such as Trinitite.

Libyan Desert Glass aka Trinitite from King Tut's Tomb.

Andrew Tomas: neither scientist nor historian, now if it was accounting he'd be a decent source.

Irrelevant what he was. If a janitor says the sky is blue does that mean you think it's green and pink polka dots?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Mattshark]

Well after the ancient atomic war in the Libyan Desert there seems to be an infinite amount of glass structures such as Trinitite.

Libyan Desert Glass aka Trinitite from King Tut's Tomb.

It is analogous to trinitite, it is not trinitite though.

Nuclear war there would have left far more obvious evidence.

Irrelevant what he was. If a janitor says the sky is blue does that mean you think it's green and pink polka dots?

That is a meaningless comparison because it is demonstrably false. Observation of a colour and being a conspiracy theorist accountant writing about science are not the same or comparable.

[Agonaces of Susa]

Nuclear war there would have left far more obvious evidence.

Like what? Ashes? Or you mean the Trinitite that we have?

That is a meaningless comparison because it is demonstrably false. Observation of a colour and being a conspiracy theorist accountant writing about science are not the same or comparable.

If only specialists are authorities, it follows that you think only alchemists are qualified to speak on alchemy.

Are you an alchemist?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Agonaces of Susa

[Mattshark]

Like what? Ashes?

Well the products of a nuclear explosion might be a clue.

If only specialists are authorities, it follows that you think only alchemists are qualified to speak on alchemy.

Are you an alchemist?

Not really, nuclear physicists can, chemists can too or those with a level of understanding of chemistry, that I have.

[TheSearcher]

The ancient Egyptians were not shy about their drug use. Representations of alcohol and lotus are common. But there are none of Egyptians using tobacco or coca. Egyptian tombs and the paintings on their walls included representations of everything the tomb's occupant would need in their next life including such things as beer and opium. But not one tobacco or coca leaf has ever been found.

This said, there were other sources of nicotine, as pointed out often enough, by other posters in this thread. Many common food plants-tomatoes, potatoes, aubergines, for example, contain low levels of nicotine. Small amounts build up in the body just through diet.

Also, compositae, a plant containing trace levels of nicotine, was used as part of the mummification of Ramses II. If this plant was widely used for the embalming process in general, this could account for the nicotine traces found in mummies. (see Lise Manniche in her "Ancient Egyptian Herbal")

Balabanova found cocaine in only one group of mummies, other than South American mummies, her very first batch from the Munich Museum. Their levels were much lower than in South American mummies. The Munich mummies are not a homogenous group either, ages and origins vary widely. No other Old World mummies have revealed cocaine. It would be a tad weird if these and only these mummies were exposed to the drug and then, totally by hazard, gathered in Munich. A simpler explanation is that they were exposed after being brought together at the museum. Could it be that maybe someone was "snorting a line" in the Munich Museum mummy room?

I'm not contesting Balabanova's results at all, but I'm pointing out that there can be several reasons why a mummie can contain nicotine, other than tobacco or the use thereoff. I'm just saying, sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. Dismissing it out of hand is just a silly thing to do.

[Harte]

While I myself agree with what you say, there are others in here that will tell you that the nicotine came from another plant that WAS indigenous to Egypt and Europe and Asia.

Balabanova is among those that makes this very claim, that the nicotine was local, not from South America.

Harte

[Abramelin]

Balabanova is among those that makes this very claim, that the nicotine was local, not from South America.

Harte

Personally I don't think it is that farfetched to assume that the ancients travelled farther and wider than is assumed at present.

The Egyptians were very probably not great seafarers themselves, but the were in contact with the Phoenicians - traders - who were.

But even if there was contact between the ancient Middle East and South America, the 'cocaine mummies' only suggest possible contact at around 3000 BC (age of the oldest Egyptian mummy tested).

What - even is it is without a doubt proven to be true, somewhere in the future - has it got to do with Atlantis?

[questionmark]

Personally I don't think it is that farfetched to assume that the ancients travelled farther and wider than is assumed at present.

The Egyptians were very probably not great seafarers themselves, but the were in contact with the Phoenicians - traders - who were.

But even if there was contact between the ancient Middle East and South America, the 'cocaine mummies' only suggest possible contact at around 3000 BC (age of the oldest Egyptian mummy tested).

What - even is it is without a doubt proven to be true, somewhere in the future - has it got to do with Atlantis?

The whole cocaine thing is not being taken seriously because the integrity of the molecules cannot be established, only that there are rest chemicals that could form cocaine (or Novocaine...for the case). And that is the problem with organic matter laying around for several thousand year: It decomposes leaving a bunch of chemicals.

We could probably come up with ten dozen of plants containing the same components (though not the molecules) of cocaine.

Just as easy as to suppose that Egyptian seafarers went as a matter of course to America it is to suppose that Egyptian "pharmacologists" were capable of mixing Novocaine. One as ludicrous as the other.

[Abramelin]

The whole cocaine thing is not being taken seriously because the integrity of the molecules cannot be established, only that there are rest chemicals that could form cocaine (or Novocaine...for the case). And that is the problem with organic matter laying around for several thousand year: It decomposes leaving a bunch of chemicals.

We could probably come up with ten dozen of plants containing the same components (though not the molecules) of cocaine.

Just as easy as to suppose that Egyptian seafarers went as a matter of course to America it is to suppose that Egyptian "pharmacologists" were capable of mixing Novocaine. One as ludicrous as the other.

My point is not whether the mummies actually contained these drugs or not, my point is: what does this have to do with Atlantis?

Even if scientists are able to prove without a doubt that the Egyptians (either themselves or through their trading partners, the Phoenicians) had been in contact with South America (around 3000 BC), what does that say about Plato's Atlantis? Nothing at all, right?

Now, if they dug up an 11,000 years old skeleton near Athens, and if that skeleton had a jade arrowhead in it's shoulderblade, and..... if the jade arrowhead was proven without a doubt to be made of jade from the Americas... THEN we would have something.

.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

So, anxious to ensure that her tests on the mummies were beyond reproach, she used this very technique - it's called the hair shaft test. Drugs and other substances consumed by humans get into the hair protein, where they stay for months, or after death - forever. Hair samples can be washed in alcohol and the washing solution itself then tested. If the testing solution is clear, but the hair tests positive, then the drug must be inside the hair shaft, which means the person consumed it during their lifetime. It's considered proof against contamination before or after death.

http://www.larryjzimmerman.com/lost/coctrans.htm

Sounds positive to me.

The whole idea here is that if the Egyptians had cocaine, and the only place to get it was S. America, then it follows that they made it to S. America or someone from there made it to Egypt, therefore, S. America must be Atlantis. Except Atlantis sunk, although there are those who say only the temple city sunk, therefore the land should still be there.

[Qoais]

Nuclear war there would have left far more obvious evidence.

You mean like acres of vitrified sand - green glass? It's there. It's in sheets, not zig zag like lightning strikes, no mounds to show a crater impact and it's 99% pure.

My previous article in The Canadian , in which I reflected upon my book Worlds Before Our Own, provoked dozens of inquiries from readers. Some stated that one of the cable channels -- some thought it was the History Channel; others, Discovery; still others, National Geographic -- had presented “proof” that the “fused green glass” to be found in various areas had been created by meteoric air blasts rather than prehistoric nuclear wars.

I remain open to many theories of Earth‘s prehistory. One of those individuals prompted to write to me, who had the advantage of having actually read Worlds Before Our Own, stated that I present “in a clear and lucid style, information concerning anomalous archeological finds without the hyperbole usually associated with this type of material.”

While patches of “fused green glass” may in certain instances have been caused by air blasts from meteors, I wonder if such a natural phenomenon could have created all twenty-eight fields of blackened and shattered stones that cover as many as 7000 miles each in western Arabia. The stones are densely grouped, as if they might be the remains of cities, sharp-edged, and burned black. Experts have decreed that they are not volcanic in origin, but appear to date from the period when Arabia was thought to be a lush and fruitful land that suddenly became scorched into an instant desert.

What we know today as the Sahara Desert was once a tropical region of heavy vegetation, abundant rainfall, and several large rivers. Scientists have discovered areas of the desert in which soils which once knew the cultivated influence of plow and farmer are now covered by a thin layer of sand. Researchers have also found an enormous reservoir of water below the parched desert area. The source of such a large deposit of water could only have been the heavy rains from the period of time before a fiery devastation consumed the lush vegetation of the area.

On December 25, 2007, it was confirmed by a French scientist that excavations at the area of Khamis Bani Sa’ad in Tehema district of Hodeidah province have yielded over a thousand rare archaeological pieces dating back to 300,000 B.C.E. Before a dramatic climate change, the inhabitants at that time had been fishermen and had domesticated a number of animals no longer to be found in the region, including a species of horse currently found only in Middle Asia.

The Red Chinese have conducted atomic tests near Lob Nor Lake in the Gobi Desert, which have left large patches of the area covered with vitreous sand. But the Gobi has a number of other areas of glassy sand which have been known for thousands of years.

Albion W. Hart, one of the first engineers to graduate from Massachusetts Institute of Technology, was assigned a project in the interior of Africa. While he and his men were traveling to an almost inaccessible region, they had first to cross a great expanse of desert. At the time, he was puzzled and quite unable to explain a large area of greenish glass which covered the sands as far as he could see.

"Later on during his life," wrote Margarethe Casson in Rocks and Minerals (No. 396, 1972), "he passed by the White Sands area after the first atomic explosion there, and he recognized the same type of silica fusion which he had seen fifty years earlier in the African desert."

In 1947, in the Euphrates valley of southern Iraq, where certain traditions place the Garden of Eden and where the ancient inhabitants of Sumer encountered the man-god Ea, exploratory digging unearthed a layer of fused, green glass. Archaeologists could not restrain themselves from noting the resemblance that the several-thousand-year-old fused glass bore to the desert floor at White Sands, New Mexico, after the first nuclear blasts in modem times had melted sand and rock.

http://www.marcjager.com/green-glass.html