The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #476 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This is part of the dialogue that Plato mentions in Timaeus. It's the first time i actually red the whole dialogue (as i have only red quotes from it). What makes me wonder here, is this: The ancient priest of Egypt, from whom Solon herd the story, is actually portraying an accurate picture of the whole world: This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles (meaning the strait of Gibraltar) ; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands (meaning the place where now lies the atlantic ocean), and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean (this can be literally a reference to the American continent and the pacific ocean); for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour (meaning that the mediterranean sea resembles a lake), having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea (meaning the pacific ocean), and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent (America again). So how it's possible if this story is fiction that the priest knew about the atlantic ocean, the boundless continent of America and the pacific ocean? Is this the original text? Yes, but the bolded parts in brackets is not, that is added assumptions by whoever.... Try the reading it without anyone else's thoughts added in, simple assumption. I read it quite differently but the main text you have there is the original as we normally read it. I gave a couple a links before to good versions on the net. Herodotus mentions the Atlantic Ocean 100 years before Plato does and even calls it the Atlantis Sea!! so they knew it was there no worries but you can take the rest very differently...knowing at that time that if you sailed out of the 'harbour' of the Mediterranean into the Atlantis Sea and kept going....where would you end up (pretend you are Christopher Columbus and did not know America was there) ...the other side of the boundless continent just as Columbus thought he did...Columbus had read a work of Aristotles to actually occur to him to take on this journey in the first place...you would arrive in the INDIES of India...the other side or the opposite side of the boundless continent Plato lived....the opposite side of Europe is India. The surrounding land meaning the whole land mass Plato lived, the continent. Since they had no idea of the continents as we do today, you can view the whole land mass of Europe and Asia etc as being one continent to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki Posted December 14, 2009 #477 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This is part of the dialogue that Plato mentions in Timaeus. It's the first time i actually red the whole dialogue (as i have only red quotes from it). What makes me wonder here, is this: The ancient priest of Egypt, from whom Solon herd the story, is actually portraying an accurate picture of the whole world: This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles (meaning the strait of Gibraltar) ; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands (meaning the place where now lies the atlantic ocean), and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean (this can be literally a reference to the American continent and the pacific ocean); for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour (meaning that the mediterranean sea resembles a lake), having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea (meaning the pacific ocean), and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent (America again). So how it's possible if this story is fiction that the priest knew about the atlantic ocean, the boundless continent of America and the pacific ocean? Is this the original text? Actually, it sounds to me as if the 'true ocean' is the Atlantic -- the Americas do indeed surround it. I concede, though, that I haven't thought of the Pacific before in relation with this and that it is a possibility. This passage is one of the strongest reasons I think Atlantis could've existed. It's really odd to read such a description in a 2,000+ year old text! Also rather surprising is how precisely the date of Atlantis' sinking correlates with the end of the Younger Dryas -- it's pretty much the exact same time. I'm not a believer, though, in the sense that I accept Atlantis just because of these oddities. I know archaeological evidence must be found for it even to be considered seriously. However, I view the dialogues as a kind of treasure map, a series of clues as a starting point. They can't prove anything on their own, but IMO they rather strongly suggest that it wasn't fiction after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #478 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hematite (Fe203) (ferric oxide) is essentially base iron. Rather like a compacted rust. The color can vary, but it has a very dull, powdery appearance. This is the source of the oft used red ocher. Orichalcum is (was) a material that I was unfamiliar with. A quick search reveals that the material was also mentioned by Josephus (Book XI) and Pliny the Elder, amongst others. The exact material would appear to be not fully verified, but most sources present a cupperous alloy, with brass/tin or copper/gold being amongst the more common. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Alloy I'm not going on that one because since when do you dig an alloy of brass/tin or copper/gold straight out of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #479 Share Posted December 14, 2009 In saying that, i am not definite on the idea of it NOT referring to a land the Phoenicians may have sailed to and known about and then Plato has possibly known also and may have added it in as being the Americas...but it can easily be read without the Americas being part of it...that Columbus did not know they were and truly thought he had reached India can be shown to explain the way I just said above.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki Posted December 14, 2009 #480 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Another thing Plato mentions is the Greek myth of Phaëton. Wiki sums up the legend nicely here. This myth does, in my opinion, very accurately reflect this event. This was a solar fluctuation that took place around 3,150 BC. A paper on it is here. Now, here is what Plato says in regards to the myth: There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals. Let us assume for a moment that the Phaëton story really is a memory of the 3,150 BC solar event. You may disagree on this, but if it's true, it has some serious implications. 3,114 BC is the latest Day Zero in the Long Count, and 3,102 BC is the start of the Indian Kali Yuga cycle. Here we have the oddity: The Long Count says that whatever happened in 3,114 BC will recur every 5,126 years. The Kali Yuga predicts a sub-period to begin 5,000 years from its beginning. And here we have Plato, reaffirming the idea that the Phaëton phenomenon is a natural disaster that recurs after very long periods of time. Same concept, no trade-off of ideas. I fully grant that this hypothesis is fragile, and that it completely rests on the assumption that the myth really is a memory of that particular solar event. If it is, however, I think it's a strong indication that we really are seeing a piece of 12,000-old information handed down to us. Edited December 14, 2009 by Ikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #481 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Another thing Plato mentions is the Greek myth of Phaëton. Wiki sums up the legend nicely here. This myth does, in my opinion, very accurately reflect this event. This was a solar fluctuation that took place around 3,150 BC. A paper on it is here. Now, here is what Plato says in regards to the myth: Let us assume for a moment that the Phaëton story really is a memory of the 3,150 BC solar event. You may disagree on this, but if it's true, it has some serious implications. 3,114 BC is the latest Day Zero in the Long Count, and 3,102 BC is the start of the Indian Kali Yuga cycle. Here we have the oddity: The Long Count says that whatever happened in 3,114 BC will recur every 5,126 years. The Kali Yuga predicts a sub-period to begin 5,000 years from its beginning. And here we have Plato, reaffirming the idea that the Phaëton phenomenon is a natural disaster that recurs after very long periods of time. Same concept, no trade-off of ideas. I fully grant that this hypothesis is fragile, and that it completely rests on the assumption that the myth really is a memory of that particular solar event. If it is, however, I think it's a strong indication that we really are seeing a piece of 12,000-old information handed down to us. Nice research, I am most familiar with the changes on the Sahara, which I do believe is responsible for the earliest Egyptians moving east to the area of Egypt and the Nile. The monsoons changed from a climatic event. The Egyptians could have had memory of this change. The changing of the Pole Star I believe is also tied in to the myths. From the end of Thuban, a star in the Draco constellation. I think the point Plato makes with the Phaeton myth being a real event is very important, especially since in the myth it recounts how it burnt the faces black of the Ethiopians... and even though I see Plato's message as being more of an Armageddon issue I don't at all discount the physical side of what he is saying either but at the moment I don't see an island outside Gibraltar, what I do see if anything is an area of North West Africa that could have been deemed as Atlantis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerverse Posted December 14, 2009 #482 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Yes, but the bolded parts in brackets is not, that is added assumptions by whoever.... Try the reading it without anyone else's thoughts added in, simple assumption. I read it quite differently but the main text you have there is the original as we normally read it. I gave a couple a links before to good versions on the net. Herodotus mentions the Atlantic Ocean 100 years before Plato does and even calls it the Atlantis Sea!! so they knew it was there no worries but you can take the rest very differently...knowing at that time that if you sailed out of the 'harbour' of the Mediterranean into the Atlantis Sea and kept going....where would you end up (pretend you are Christopher Columbus and did not know America was there) ...the other side of the boundless continent just as Columbus thought he did...Columbus had read a work of Aristotles to actually occur to him to take on this journey in the first place...you would arrive in the INDIES of India...the other side or the opposite side of the boundless continent Plato lived....the opposite side of Europe is India. The surrounding land meaning the whole land mass Plato lived, the continent. Since they had no idea of the continents as we do today, you can view the whole land mass of Europe and Asia etc as being one continent to them. I'm sorry i didn't clarify this, the assumptions in the brackets are mine...(i had the original gialogue quoted in my post). How is it possible from this direct quote above for someone to assume that atlantis (if of course the myth is a reality) is NOT on the atlantic ocean? It says that the power came from the atlantic ocean, and in order to reach the island you need to pass the pillars of Heracles (which is known through antiquity that this was the name given to the strait of Gibraltar). From there, the story goes: "...the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean..." What i understand from this statement is that approximately 9000 years before the writing of plato (again if this is not just a made-up story), there were large islands in the atlantic ocean and from there, if you continued your course you would reach "the whole of the opposite continent" (a perfect description for America) "which surrounded the true ocean" (the atlantic ocean of course). They also knew that the atlantic sea was in fact an ocean: "... for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent..." I think the text is actually very clear in what it states... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki Posted December 14, 2009 #483 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/8/673 http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001AGUFM.U41B..07W A couple papers that link the end of the Younger Dryas with an abrubt event in the North Atlantic. I had more articles from the University of Copenhagen, Niels Bohr Institute on this, but they appear have be gone. I apologize! I've also speculated, like you, that the 3,150 solar event may have been linked to the establishment of a united Egypt, but I'm not at all well-versed in the history of that region, so I'll leave that be 'til I know more. At any rate, it roughly coincides with a lot of changes in cultures world-wide, which is hardly a surprise following such an incident. EDIT: Another paper, heh Edited December 14, 2009 by Ikki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #484 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry i didn't clarify this, the assumptions in the brackets are mine...(i had the original gialogue quoted in my post). How is it possible from this direct quote above for someone to assume that atlantis (if of course the myth is a reality) is NOT on the atlantic ocean? It says that the power came from the atlantic ocean, and in order to reach the island you need to pass the pillars of Heracles (which is known through antiquity that this was the name given to the strait of Gibraltar). From there, the story goes: "...the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean..." What i understand from this statement is that approximately 9000 years before the writing of plato (again if this is not just a made-up story), there were large islands in the atlantic ocean and from there, if you continued your course you would reach "the whole of the opposite continent" (a perfect description for America) "which surrounded the true ocean" (the atlantic ocean of course). They also knew that the atlantic sea was in fact an ocean: "... for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent..." I think the text is actually very clear in what it states... I don't doubt Plato has it in the Atlantic Ocean outside the Pillars of Heracles...sail out and south a touch and you reach the West African coast, where the 'Atlanteans' are placed by Herodotus. Jason sails into Africa when he gets lost...Poseidon is a Libyan God... If the Sahara was wet and had rivers and Lakes such as the ancient mentioned Lake Tritonis the western Sahara and the area around Mauritania do fit quite nicely really. One must ask also, what happened to Southern Africa on the old maps when it is clear from Herodotus that even back in his day it was clearly sailed around...then we see it as not even half the size in later maps. Like a large part of western and southern Africa simply disappeared from history....we forgot it was there or something..? I am open for anything in this discussion, I have been over and over many points and have my own conclusions as of today, I have 3 or 4 topics here on my new finds of where Atlantis is but my fave is the Sahara if any... but am able to change or check details to get or renew my info at any given time to come to new conclusions. Some people here don't like me for that but why not, can I not change my mind if I see new info produced that shows me a different approach? I am fully open to any discussion on this topic and am able to assess and change my opinion too at any given time. I don't doubt at all Plato has it in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere near the Pillars but whether it was a seperate piece of land is my thing...the original Greek word used is apparently nesos, I'm not Greek but I have seen that this word can actually mean peninsular and not simply island either so we could also conclude then that the Western side of Africa had a peninsular that jutted out, so many variations, it really is not as simple as it looks.. I will add one thing though....Aristotle, his closest student did not believe in the island of Atlantis and I cannot write that off. Read the Laws Book 2 and 3 and you can see the ideas Plato had to get to this story, it is tradition, to believe in these ancient civilisations.. Edited December 14, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted December 14, 2009 #485 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Orichalcum is (was) a material that I was unfamiliar with. A quick search reveals that the material was also mentioned by Josephus (Book XI) and Pliny the Elder, amongst others. The exact material would appear to be not fully verified, but most sources present a cupperous alloy, with brass/tin or copper/gold being amongst the more common. I'm not going on that one because since when do you dig an alloy of brass/tin or copper/gold straight out of the ground. Orichalcum is a mythical metal, like bronze, but perhaps with gold in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum Gold does appear in alloyed forms. Electrum is one metal that is a natural silver/gold alloy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum There is also naturally occuring copper/gold alloys called Tumbaga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga Trace amounts of dozens of other metals are often found in gold, that is why it is usually smelted to get out the impurities. Tin, brass, paladium, platinum and nickle are some of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerverse Posted December 14, 2009 #486 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I understand your points, puzzler. As i said, it is the first time that i actually red the whole dialogue as i had only red parts of it. So i may be judging Plato's writings from a "modern" point of view and not in accordance with the view of the word that the ancients had. I'm going to read the whole dialogue in Greek and see what i can find...by the way "nesos" means "island" in greek and this is the only meaning attributed to this word... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted December 14, 2009 #487 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I'm not going on that one because since when do you dig an alloy of brass/tin or copper/gold straight out of the ground. This may be another matter of interpretation. Specific mineral/lithic sources can often be quite confined. I could list numerous geologic formations within which a specific and documented material form occurs within quite limited landforms. Hixton Silicified Sandstone, Gunflint Silica, Novaculite, etc. There are also a number of naturally occurring metallic forms. For example, there are at least 140 natural compounds of CU; http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/copper.html Brass-like alloys can also occur in a natural form; http://www.galleries.com/minerals/elements/zinc/zinc.htm However, might the relevant passage be no more than a reference to an extraction/processing location? http://www.goldbulletin.org/assets/file/goldbulletin/downloads/Craddock_2_15.pdf Point being, Plato may have been referring to an essentially "local" activity. The mythical Atlantis? Sorry, no evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevemagegod Posted December 14, 2009 Author #488 Share Posted December 14, 2009 UK tabloid The Sun has an article claiming that someone found Atlantis using Google Earth. As someone who’s personally interested in ancient mysteries, paranormal phenomena, and cryptozoology, I’m really happy that a tabloid has this story because it totally gives credence to the idea that Atlantis does, indeed, exist and should definitely silence all the naysayers. Surely I jest. The evidence is compelling, however; a grid of crisscrossing lines the size of Wales buried three and a half miles underwater is nothing to sneeze at. Remember, mother nature doesn’t make straight lines. Intelligent beings make straight lines. These lines are apparently 620 miles west of Morocco near the Canary Islands. Most accounts tend to place Atlantis somewhere in or near the Atlantic Ocean, with placement ranging from near the Bermuda Triangle (also see the Bimini Road) all the way to islands in the Mediterranean Sea near Greece and Italy.To play devil’s advocate, this could be any number of ancient super cities (if you believe in that kind of stuff) – not necessarily Atlantis. Or it could be an anomaly, a hoax, or it might have a reasonable explanation. Speaking of reasonable explanations… According to a Google spokesperson, the lines are actually sonar artifacts from a boat gathering data for Google Earth’s new ocean feature: “What users are seeing is an artefact of the data collection process.… Bathymetric (or sea floor terrain) data is often collected from boats using sonar to take measurements of the sea floor.… The lines reflect the path of the boat as it gathers the data. The fact that there are blank spots between each of these lines is a sign of how little we really know about the world’s oceans.” Here’s a link to the spot on Google Maps. Now if we could just get one of those Street View cars made into a submarine capable of going three and a half miles deep, we’d be in business. Read the full link here at http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/02/20/lost-city-of-atlantis-found-on-google-earth/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #489 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I understand your points, puzzler. As i said, it is the first time that i actually red the whole dialogue as i had only red parts of it. So i may be judging Plato's writings from a "modern" point of view and not in accordance with the view of the word that the ancients had. I'm going to read the whole dialogue in Greek and see what i can find...by the way "nesos" means "island" in greek and this is the only meaning attributed to this word... Gosh, i wish I could read it in Greek. Being in Athens might help you comprehend it better too. Georgeos Diaz (can't remember his exact name) Montexo-Diaz? has his whole (very researched, in depth, professional) theory based on that word 'nesos' meaning peninsular if I remember rightly...Q??? I am very interested that you say not. It is details like this that can change one's view in an instant. I would love you to read the 2 texts and have a go at seeing what you think, keep us posted on what you make out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSot Posted December 14, 2009 #490 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Steve, those have been discussed pretty often here. Check off the ocast of California, you'll see the same thing, as well as near the coast here in Florida. It's the way they obtain the data. Boats use sonar buoys which are dragged behind the boat, laying out a grid like pattern. Also, yes, nature produces straight lines and perfect circles as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #491 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I gather the Peloponnese peninsular is thought of as an island then in that term of nesos meaning island and not peninsular, I thought it was named so and the ending nese (nesos) meant the landform of...so you could then interpret the word island as a large piece of land co joined to another which we would term a peninsular as an island of sorts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #492 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Orichalcum is a mythical metal, like bronze, but perhaps with gold in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum Gold does appear in alloyed forms. Electrum is one metal that is a natural silver/gold alloy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum There is also naturally occuring copper/gold alloys called Tumbaga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga Trace amounts of dozens of other metals are often found in gold, that is why it is usually smelted to get out the impurities. Tin, brass, paladium, platinum and nickle are some of these. Yep but I am still not going on an alloy. I belive it to be exactly what the word translates to in Greek, which is 'mountain copper'. I have maintained this position from the start. Copper has been used extensivly in ancient times back to 9000BC and bronze came about when copper was mixed with tin, in fact, rendering it's use after the Bronze Age very limited. It is soft and pliable, is the right colour, it could be used in liquid form, can be dug straight from the ground, is precious after gold in the times being used to make many metal items and then also being a major component of the much needed and used bronze. Bronze would have made the use of copper by itself very limited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #493 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Check out this map based on a reconstruction from Herodotus work, he who mentions the Atlantis Sea... http://mathildasdiary.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/herodotus-map.jpg Look where the Atlantic Ocean is and also note the people Herodotus has called Atlanteans.(Slightly different wording in Greek but same people) This area is beyond the Pillars of Heracles. Herodotus speaks of the Atlantis Sea prior to Plato and I reckon Plato has heard or read his works and bought this into the story. Not to mention, elephants can be found in Africa. Edited December 14, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSearcher Posted December 14, 2009 #494 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I hear ya, I truly do, in fact, when I joined UM I had similar ideas of what may be the case....but over time and through reading many links and those old fashioned things called books I found that many things are just not happening out there and never did...I will not say that aliens are not a possibility, they certainly could be, I even can go with Mu possibly having been a land mass in the Pacific, I never said continent and it is possibly apparently that the islands could have been larger and more of them that made a larger expanse of land...Edgar Cayce seems quite believable and may have been able to astro travel or however he received his info, I am not even going to write off God anymore...all because I just don't know. But what I do know is the word Lemuria was created recently from the word Lemur and that Plato's Atlantis cannot be compared to Lemuria, you know, Plato actually was the first to come up with the concept of reincarnation...true. I will ask you, just as I asked someone else...have you read Plato's 2 works about Atlantis and the message and story they convey? There is no magical crystals, levitating, alien space ships, landing pads in Egypt, South America or elsewhere. There is no King Neptune or Poseidon under the sea with his nice city of Atlantis with Atlantean souls lost in time.... Sure, Plato's version is not the be all and end all, we can see that Herodotus uses the term Atlantis Sea 100 years earlier than Plato so the area of the Atlantic was indeed known as the Atlantis Sea before Plato came along and placed it there. We have had 2,500 years to distort Atlantis which is about the fall of man due to his excessive ways, it is about how the Gods will punish us if we become too immoral, the coming of what many see as Armageddon is comparable to the sinking of Atlantis, finding our spirit and acting in accordance with moral and humble ways is what will save us. The story of Atlantis is more like the Bible than anything else and if you view it this way you are more likely to get much more out of it than interesting stories about returning Lemurian and Atlantean souls and spaceships landing at the Great Pyramid. This is why it is such a powerful story and I can think of only one other that is comparable to the impact and effect the story of Atlantis had/has on us and can you guess what that other story could be? I said it once, the Bible of course because the story of Atlantis is really the same and that is where I suggest you conduct your search on the story's meaning if you truly want to learn and grow and get Plato's message friend. See, Atlantis is like the Garden of Eden... Nice post, I don't agree on everything, but very good post nonetheless. And like you said, we've had 2500 years to give the story a good shake, I'm fairly sure that Plato wouldn't recognise it if he heard it now. http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/8/673 http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001AGUFM.U41B..07W A couple papers that link the end of the Younger Dryas with an abrubt event in the North Atlantic. I had more articles from the University of Copenhagen, Niels Bohr Institute on this, but they appear have be gone. I apologize! I've also speculated, like you, that the 3,150 solar event may have been linked to the establishment of a united Egypt, but I'm not at all well-versed in the history of that region, so I'll leave that be 'til I know more. At any rate, it roughly coincides with a lot of changes in cultures world-wide, which is hardly a surprise following such an incident. EDIT: Another paper, heh I thought that most theories for 3150 BC (give or take a few 100 years) pointed towards an impact event like Tollmann's hypothetical bolide or the Burckle crater event (situated in the middle of the Indian Ocean, where a large asteroid or comet impact c. 2800-3000 BC allegedly produced a mega-tsunami), both a catastrophic event that could have affected humanity's cradles of civilization. This said, I know that Tollmann's bolide is rejected by most for lack of evidence and interpretation issues of existing evidence. But the Burckle crater event does fall into the correct timeline and would have been big enough to have affect the entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #495 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Nice post, I don't agree on everything, but very good post nonetheless. And like you said, we've had 2500 years to give the story a good shake, I'm fairly sure that Plato wouldn't recognise it if he heard it now. I thought that most theories for 3150 BC (give or take a few 100 years) pointed towards an impact event like Tollmann's hypothetical bolide or the Burckle crater event (situated in the middle of the Indian Ocean, where a large asteroid or comet impact c. 2800-3000 BC allegedly produced a mega-tsunami), both a catastrophic event that could have affected humanity's cradles of civilization. This said, I know that Tollmann's bolide is rejected by most for lack of evidence and interpretation issues of existing evidence. But the Burckle crater event does fall into the correct timeline and would have been big enough to have affect the entire world. Thanks, I also say that it could also be based on historical accounts as known to Plato but woven into the story to represent reality but not as we know it. Also, we should not forget the 'usual' story of Phaeton that we are the most familiar was written by Ovid, around 300 years AFTER Plato so the version Plato knew was actually different to the one we are most familiar with...there is no way Plato is talking about the myth the way know it because it had not been written yet. All ancient accounts prior to Ovid have this event as something to do with Venus or the Morning star, the fall of Lucifer could be involved, which represents to them, the realisation that Venus was in fact 1 planet/star and not 2... and one had to fall away...Lucifer. Edited for spelling and to clarify. Edited December 14, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 14, 2009 #496 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Something I have never thought about: Plato is the source of the "Atlantis" myth as we now know it. Can anyone tell me if there is any manuscript written by him that survived the ages, or is it all based on much later copies? And if what we know of Plato is based on these later copies (which I think it is - I read somewehere that the oldest copy dates from 900 AD), then how can we be sure nothing has been changed or added in all these centuries? Just a thought. EDIT: The oldest surviving manuscript for about half of Plato's dialogues is the Clarke Plato (MS. E. D. Clarke 39), which was written in Constantinople in 895 and acquired by the Oxford University in 1809.[48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato Edited December 14, 2009 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerverse Posted December 14, 2009 #497 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Here's a link to the spot on Google Maps. Now if we could just get one of those Street View cars made into a submarine capable of going three and a half miles deep, we'd be in business. Read the full link here at http://www.crunchgea...n-google-earth/ Weird, i spotted that formation yesterday myself on google-earth and placed a "???" notation above it...talk about coincidence... But it could be what the google-representative said it was...an anomaly of the sonar system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSearcher Posted December 14, 2009 #498 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Weird, i spotted that formation yesterday myself on google-earth and placed a "???" notation above it...talk about coincidence... But it could be what the google-representative said it was...an anomaly of the sonar system. I seem to remember that the same kind of pattern was spotted on google earth near Cuba as well. Looked exactly the same. Let me see if I can find the article again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerverse Posted December 14, 2009 #499 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I gather the Peloponnese peninsular is thought of as an island then in that term of nesos meaning island and not peninsular, I thought it was named so and the ending nese (nesos) meant the landform of...so you could then interpret the word island as a large piece of land co joined to another which we would term a peninsular as an island of sorts... Yes, i figured that this might be the case. Peloponnese (Peloponesos in greek) is the only part of Greece that you could argue that is a land not a nesos (but is actually surrounded with water and seperated from attica with the corinthian isthmus). All the other references to nesos (makronesos, elafonesos and others) are all islands. And of course all of our islands are named "nesia". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 14, 2009 #500 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Something I have never thought about: Plato is the source of the "Atlantis" myth as we now know it. Can anyone tell me if there is any manuscript written by him that survived the ages, or is it all based on much later copies? And if what we know of Plato is based on these later copies (which I think it is - I read somewehere that the oldest copy dates from 900 AD), then how can we be sure nothing has been changed or added in all these centuries? Just a thought. EDIT: The oldest surviving manuscript for about half of Plato's dialogues is the Clarke Plato (MS. E. D. Clarke 39), which was written in Constantinople in 895 and acquired by the Oxford University in 1809.[48] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato True enough, I am under the impression the people transcribing these works had access to earlier copies and did copy them as they had them so the one written in Constantinaople by the Arab writers would be consistant if these had been copied from the original Greek manuscripts that had survived by Plato. Who knows really but I do like to read the 3 available by Lee, Bury and Jowett as even these show many different words and sentences, essentially the same but certainly different words which could convey different translations. Many ancient texts are in this same position I guess...we are taking them at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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