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Atlantis


stevemagegod

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True enough, I am under the impression the people transcribing these works had access to earlier copies and did copy them as they had them so the one written in Constantinaople by the Arab writers would be consistant if these had been copied from the original Greek manuscripts that had survived by Plato. Who knows really but I do like to read the 3 available by Lee, Bury and Jowett as even these show many different words and sentences, essentially the same but certainly different words which could convey different translations.

Many ancient texts are in this same position I guess...we are taking them at face value.

I think 1400 years or something is quite a long time.

And it's not some religious text (we know the Jews copied and copied and copied the TBible, and their copies were almost a 100% equal to the originals) so it would not surprize me is some words and names have been altered during 1400 years.

Hell knows, even the name "Atlantis" may originally have been something totally different.

The Arabs were not Greeks and may have given the land/country/continent a name according to what they thought it should be called. An example: I live in "Nederland", but the French say "Pays Bas", others say "Holland", and the Germans say "Niederlande" and in older times it was sometimes called "Lower Saxony", and even longer ago much of the Netherlands was called "Frisia", and in the middle ages "Batavian Republic", and so on, and so on.

We all say "America" or "the Americas", but the native Americans talk about "Turtle Island". Not much of a resemblance, is there?

And when only one of all those who copied tried to interpret the original text to his or her understanding and changed some names, then we all are now lost ( I know there is an english expression of a 'goose chase', but I forgot how it went exactly)

You are right of course, we take the texts we have at face value, but maybe that is the cause why we are trying to find Atlantis all over this planet because several names and descriptions have been changed during all these ages.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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The muslim Arabs had a legend of 'the people of Ad':

http://www.islamicit...softheSands.htm

It may have been a legend that was around in the Arabian peninsula, and some Arab translator may have changed the original name of Atlantis to what he read in the Qur'an.

He may have been convinced that Plato's story was about these people of Ad, added a couple of details according to his interpretation, and created a name that would suit that interpretation.

Then it got re-translated into Greek and Latin by Europeans who spoke Arab, and that's where the name "Atlantis" shows up.

Maybe this is all totally wrong, but as long as Plato's original won't show up, we can look for "Atlantis" all over the planet and never be able to find it.

Edited by Abramelin
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I think 1400 years or something is quite a long time.

And it's not some religious text (we know the Jews copied and copied and copied the TBible, and their copies were almost a 100% equal to the originals) so it would not surprize me is some words and names have been altered during 1400 years.

Hell knows, even the name "Atlantis" may originally have been something totally different.

While you're probably right technically, fact is there were a lot of Greeks commenting on Plato's wiork for centuries after he died.

Not likely that it differs all that much today from the original, we do still have several of these commentaries.

Harte

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While you're probably right technically, fact is there were a lot of Greeks commenting on Plato's wiork for centuries after he died.

Not likely that it differs all that much today from the original, we do still have several of these commentaries.

Harte

OK, but they comment on it, they do not repeat word for word what he is supposed to have written, right?

And what we know about his writings is by the translations of the Arabs.

And they did have a legend about the people of "Ad".

Things may have been mixed up according to what they - the Arabs - thought he was talking about.

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The muslim Arabs had a legend of 'the people of Ad':

I'd never heard of this, but I'd have to say that a written record (Plato's) would be far more reliable than an oral one (Arab.)

Unless you mean to say that the story in the Qu'ran itself, which (of course) post-dates Plato by almost a millenia, is more reliable?

Harte

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I'd never heard of this, but I'd have to say that a written record (Plato's) would be far more reliable than an oral one (Arab.)

Unless you mean to say that the story in the Qu'ran itself, which (of course) post-dates Plato by almost a millenia, is more reliable?

Harte

No, of course I do not say that their story is more reliable. I whipe my rear end with their holy book.

But some Arab may have been convinced he knew what country Plato was talking about, and added details that were not in Plato's original manuscript.

And which other Greek, after Plato, actually talks about "Atlantis"? No one.

Edited by Abramelin
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No, of course I do not say that their story is more reliable. I whipe my rear end with their holy book.

But some Arab may have been convinced he knew what country Plato was talking about, and added details that were not in Plato's original manuscript.

When you talk about the "oldest surviving" manuscript, you're talking about what we have available today.

That is not to say that the people that have been writing about these Dialogues, including Greeks from BCE and CE, had to rely on the Constantinople translation.

Particularly, with the question about the word Atlantis, this is a known Greek word. Several Greek critics have commented on Plato's fictional continent, are we to suppose that all of their comments were translated from Arabic as well?

Harte

EDIT: Link to the Oxford Handbook of Plato.Chapter 5, The Manuscripts.

Edited by Harte
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The muslim Arabs had a legend of 'the people of Ad':

http://www.islamicit...softheSands.htm

It may have been a legend that was around in the Arabian peninsula, and some Arab translator may have changed the original name of Atlantis to what he read in the Qur'an.

He may have been convinced that Plato's story was about these people of Ad, added a couple of details according to his interpretation, and created a name that would suit that interpretation.

Then it got re-translated into Greek and Latin by Europeans who spoke Arab, and that's where the name "Atlantis" shows up.

Maybe this is all totally wrong, but as long as Plato's original won't show up, we can look for "Atlantis" all over the planet and never be able to find it.

Aristotle mentions the name and Herodotus has mentioned it before Plato so I doubt it was non existant or twisted that much.

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No, of course I do not say that their story is more reliable. I whipe my rear end with their holy book.

But some Arab may have been convinced he knew what country Plato was talking about, and added details that were not in Plato's original manuscript.

And which other Greek, after Plato, actually talks about "Atlantis"? No one.

Aristotle did.

Edit to add:

Herodotus mentions it. I really can't agreee this has been translated so badly the word would not be in it...if anything I think Critias may have been adjusted slightly from what I have read previously and always felt the part where it says modern day Gades seems like it just does not fit into the style of writing...there is word that Critias is unfinished and may have been tampered with, I persionally think it is finished but am not sure who else had a hand in writing it...if anyone.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I agree. Everyone keeps saying how we have to give credit to the ancients for all that they accomplished, well let's give a bit of credit to the scholars who trained relentlessly and sometimes under ruthless teachers, to learn to be scribes. I don't see them making mistakes if they could help it.

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Q.- Oddly enough, I took a few minutes to peruse your citation. Good luck with your new ventures! And I do mean that sincerely.

Well thanks - I think!! What new ventures are you referring to? I started out on Robert Sarmasts forum over three years ago, seeking to figure out what the Ark of the covenant really was and what made it work, and while doing that, trying to figure out who was leading Moses. Obviously, whoever it was, was the last of the living gods who walked the earth in ancient times. Reading Sitchin's interpretations, I had it figured that this would be the god Sin, great nephew of Enlil. That conclusion is of course, still up in the air, although I'm still working on it a wee bittie at a time from other translations of the Sumerian texts, or what I'm hoping are the real thing!

While on that venture, I somehow got sidetracked into looking for Atlantis, and like Puzzler, tortured myself mentally for a long time trying to use logic to figure out how to make all the pieces of Plato's story fit the time line and the clues he gave, to no avail, therefore concluding through the application of logic, that Plato made it up. Disappointing as it is - because I totally believed in Atlantis from the time I first heard of it when I was a teenager! - and I never thought I would be one to nay say the story.

While exploring for Atlantis, I ended up getting sidetracked again, into the stories of the pyramids and then really got into the work of Prof. Davidovits. My thread at Atlantis Online is now 112 pages long, and it's basically a diary of what I was thinking as I was writing. I kept changing my mind, and then changing it back again. The one thing I can say is I learned a lot in my journey, but when it got to the point where I was burning myself out and couldn't even remember what I'd read earlier in the day, I knew I had to back off. I'm not sure where I'm going next. I see Puzzler is going to have a go at the pyramids and the Giza Plateau. I think I'll just sit back and watch this one. I've already been there, done that.

Edited by Qoais
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This is a post I made a couple of months ago over at Atlantis Online. I'm still chuckling about it.

I was just sitting here looking at Homer's map and started laughing. I thought boy that Plato really was clever. If he had seen a Homerian map and then seen Hecataeus' map, the idea might have popped into his head that ha ha ha, all this time we've been thinking the Atlantians and the Hesperides lived on an island, but in light of this new map the island has disappeared. There is no island.

So for his story, first there was an island, then there was no island. And you can't find an island because there was no island. Lightbulb comes on!

Someone said in the past, that isn't it amazing how Plato created this island and then he made it disappear!! He didn't create it, it's just what they used to believe was out there, and he didn't make it disappear because it was never there in the first place. Absolutely brilliant.

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Aristotle did.

Edit to add:

Herodotus mentions it. I really can't agreee this has been translated so badly the word would not be in it...if anything I think Critias may have been adjusted slightly from what I have read previously and always felt the part where it says modern day Gades seems like it just does not fit into the style of writing...there is word that Critias is unfinished and may have been tampered with, I persionally think it is finished but am not sure who else had a hand in writing it...if anyone.

They mention the Atlantic sea, they dont talk about a land called "Atlantis".

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When you talk about the "oldest surviving" manuscript, you're talking about what we have available today.

That is not to say that the people that have been writing about these Dialogues, including Greeks from BCE and CE, had to rely on the Constantinople translation.

Particularly, with the question about the word Atlantis, this is a known Greek word. Several Greek critics have commented on Plato's fictional continent, are we to suppose that all of their comments were translated from Arabic as well?

Harte

EDIT: Link to the Oxford Handbook of Plato.Chapter 5, The Manuscripts.

The only one who mentions "Atlantis" is Plato. All the ones before him and after him mention an AtlantiC sea/AtlantiS sea.

Can you give me a source where "Atlantis" as a name for a country/continent/civilization is being mentioned, aside from Plato?

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The only one who mentions "Atlantis" is Plato. All the ones before him and after him mention an AtlantiC sea/AtlantiS sea.

Can you give me a source where "Atlantis" as a name for a country/continent/civilization is being mentioned, aside from Plato?

Crantor

Proclus

The latter is how we know of the former, as Crantor's work has been lost.

Strabo

Posidonius

All of the above mention Atlantis in, as I said, commentaries on Plato's work.

There's probably more.

Harte

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Crantor

Proclus

The latter is how we know of the former, as Crantor's work has been lost.

Strabo

Posidonius

All of the above mention Atlantis in, as I said, commentaries on Plato's work.

There's probably more.

Harte

I checked your links, and I see nothing about Atlantis.

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FYI,

There was also a text written a hundred years before Plato entitled "Atlantis." It was by Hellanicus of Lesbos.

It's thought that it was a geneaology of some type.

I got the following from the esteemed Doug Weller (of The Hall of Ma'at)

There are only a few lines left of Hellanicus's Atlantis, which includes the line 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.' Plato says Poseidon mated with Cleito and had a son Atlas who became ruler of Atlantis. There's also bits about Atlas's daughters and their relationships with various gods.

A transcription and/or translation of Hellanicus Atlantis I fragment is in:

Robert L. Fowler, Early Greek Mythography Volume 1: Text and

Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. Pp. xlviii,

459. ISBN 0-19-814740-6.

And also from Doug, this:

John V Luce (a Dublin Classicist), in his chapter in Edwin S. Ramage Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, says that Hellanicus used the word "Atlantis" (and he says the title might have been Atlantika or Atlantias) to mean 'daughter of Atlas' and that the work was basically a genealogical one.

In any case, it is not known whether Hellanicus used the term as a place name or as indication of the geneaology (or whatever it was) that he was laying out because the short scrap of it you read above is most of all that is left of the text.

And here's the scraps.

Harte

Again, "Atlantis" means "of Atlas."

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It always fascinates me that Atlantis has become a myth even beyond the myth that it started out life as... Atlantis, if it existed in any way, would not have been high tech by current standards and would not have had anything resembling the genetic alteration abilities that the OP refers to. It would have been a barely above stone age culture. It may have been advanced (for it's time) in some areas, but it would still have been very much stone-age.

These silly attributes that so many people have given to it over the years have become insane - Atlanteans would not have had airplanes, space travel or genetic engineering. It would have probably have figured out how to grow crops and perhaps have figured out how to send boats out beyond sight of shore. Perhaps it might even have figured out how to have a system of laws beyond just the whims of it's king. In short - it would have been a culture that was about in line with the cultures around it.

And all of that is if it even existed (Which I doubt).

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FYI,

There was also a text written a hundred years before Plato entitled "Atlantis." It was by Hellanicus of Lesbos.

It's thought that it was a geneaology of some type.

I got the following from the esteemed Doug Weller (of The Hall of Ma'at)

And also from Doug, this:

In any case, it is not known whether Hellanicus used the term as a place name or as indication of the geneaology (or whatever it was) that he was laying out because the short scrap of it you read above is most of all that is left of the text.

And here's the scraps.

Harte

Again, "Atlantis" means "of Atlas."

I want sources, not scraps. They do not give me "Atlantis", ok?

Just a link" to an ancient source before Plato mentioned "Atlantis" is sufficient.

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I checked your links, and I see nothing about Atlantis.

Abe,

Is it that you just don't want to believe me, or is it that you forgot how to spell google?

Here's something for you.

Here's anothern'

Scroll down to the part labelled "Receptions Ancient."

Harte

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Abe,

Is it that you just don't want to believe me, or is it that you forgot how to spell google?

Here's something for you.

Here's anothern'

Scroll down to the part labelled "Receptions Ancient."

Harte

Did you even read those links?

LOL

I dont have to spell Google, I read your links and they dont prove ****.

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"Prove?"

Well, you see, Procul, Crantor, Strabo and Posidonius are all dead. Otherwise, I'd have them PM you.

Other than their writings, and scholarly commentary on those writings, what would, to you, constitute "proof?"

I now note that you have changed your request to

Just a link" to an ancient source before Plato mentioned "Atlantis" is sufficient

Your previous request was

Can you give me a source where "Atlantis" as a name for a country/continent/civilization is being mentioned, aside from Plato?

As far as "before Plato..." the only one has been provided (Hellanicus.)

Regarding the wording of your first request, I've provided four sources.

Is there some problem?

Harte

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