The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #551 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Bloody hell, I love this topic and just spent an eon typing a reply to your 2 interesting posts Abe and my stooooooooopid internet connection dropped out when I posted it so I lost it all. I will retype soon...but this info really is great and if you keep digging I think you will find it really great to research, the Tassili rock paintings show some wonderful things, a trident can be found too as well as pictures of women wearing linen dresses like the Egyptians later wore, with one breast showing as the fabric goes on a slant. Check it out. Poseidon can be found there even back to Homer who tells us how Jason gets lost and the Argo ends up in there and then Herodotus adds that a tribe in the Sahara have ancient connections to the Trojans and also dress like Athena is portrayed! The whole connection is super interesting imo, Akrotiri excavations show the famous painting of them sailing to North Africa which tells us the people of Crete and Thera did indeed have relations with North African people and could easily have bought the God Poseidon and Athena back with them, the whole story of Demeter fits in too...the myths have them jumbled but breaking it down with ancient writing and archaeology makes it fit better, Demeter and Poseidon can be found in Crete with Linear B writings and they do have a relationship in Greek myth. I've run out of time and have rambled on a heap here but later on tonight I'll be back to spend some more time on answering your actual posts, my fave subject about it all... Edited to take out more rambling, I want to expand more later tonight. Edited December 17, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #552 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Just for some general reading, scroll about 2/3 way down Matilda's Anthropoly Blog for the pic at the top, it wasn't actually the one I was looking for but shows women in Tassili from 3000BC, quite an advanced nature really...also just under where you read about them (after all the Egypt stuff)you can see some old coins from Carthage...the first thing that struck me was their noses...that being considering that these Phoenicians were suppose to be from Canaan...those noses look very Greek to me rather than Semitic or even Jewish. Not that it's a huge point but in the circumstances to see Carthaginians with noses like that raises some questions for me. Also they show no trace of being black, even the Libyan prisoner of Rameses you can see just above Herodotus map is not black. The Nubians are but not the Libyans. OOps try this link instead..scroll down past the Egypt stuff.. http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/page/22/ Edited December 17, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #553 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Abramelin posted this from a website.. Poseidon is written in Doric Greek Poteidan (Ποτειδᾱν), of which we have another example in the name of Potidæa, written Poteidaia (Ποτειδαία) in the inscription, now in the British Museum, on those Athenians who fell before this city. The name, according to some writers, contains the same root in the first syllable as we find in ποτός and ποταμός; and has the same reference, in all likelihood, to water and fluidity. I have recently stated that the story of Atlantis is a story of the Dorians (somewhere on here you can find it..)since I read The Laws Book 2 or was it in 3, anyway one of those gave it away to me. The Dorians can be found in Crete at the end of the Trojan War according to Homer. So, if we take that in the time line the Dorians were certainly around long before the Greek Dark Ages when the supposed invasion of the Dorians was suppose to have taken place. Considering the dodgy history they give to us of them, the unknown Dorian invasion etc, they can be looked at more closely imo. My take is these Dorians actually were from Northern Africa or were at least there at some stage, the word Doreis can also be found on ancient Crete and as the myth goes Doreis indeed rounded up the Dorians before heading into Argo. I'm not exactly sure but feel something is going on there, I still have to follow it through some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #554 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Again, with the Rock Art... “If at one stage Egyptian (and maybe also Mycenaean) influence can be observed, the most archaic of the Tassili pictures belong to a school unknown up to now and one that apparently was of local origin”, Lhote concluded. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1997350/posts ...and maybe Mycenaean!!!!???? Just thrown in like that...maybe we weren't meant to take much notice of that bit... Chariots, Mycenaean style of art, horses in Libya, Akrotiri paintings of relations between North Africa....Poseidon, Athena...not to mention the myth of Poseidon and Libya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #555 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) The picture of the women I am trying to find is called The Peul Girls in Saharan Rock Art, it's in a book I have but I cannot seem to find it on the internet...I'd take a pic and post it here but I am probably breaching some copyright... Edited to add this...Poseidon-Wiki Linear B tablets show that Poseidon was venerated at Pylos and Thebes in pre-Olympian Bronze Age Greece, but he was integrated into the Olympian gods as the brother of Zeus and Hades. So, it is useful not to take too much notice of the Greek myths when seeking the Gods real source, a common mistake in looking for Atlantis and my point before in you can't look for Atlantis by looking for "Atlantis" as such...even though you can then find a similar comparison in the myths imo. I'll do a PPS edit save starting a new post since Ive already done 5 in a row... From Poseidon - Wiki again... The name seems to transparently stem from Greek pósis "lord, husband" with a less-transparent -don element, perhaps from dea, "goddess". If surviving Linear B clay tablets can be trusted, the name PO-SE-DA-WO-NE ("Poseidon") occurs with greater frequency than does DI-U-JA ("Zeus"). A feminine variant, PO-SE-DE-IA, is also found, indicating a lost consort goddess, in effect a precursor of Amphitrite. Tablets from Pylos record sacrificial goods destined for "the Two Queens and Poseidon" and to "the Two Queens and the King". The most obvious identification for the "Two Queens" is with Demeter and Persephone, or their precursors, goddesses who were not associated with Poseidon in later periods.[2] In Mycenaean Knossos, Poseidon is already identified as "Earth-Shaker" (E-NE-SI-DA-O-NE),[3] then a powerful attribute, for earthquakes had accompanied the collapse of the Minoan palace-culture. In the heavily sea-dependent Mycenaean culture, no connection between Poseidon and the sea has yet surfaced; among the Olympians it was determined by lot that he should rule over the sea [4]: the god preceded his realm. Demeter and Poseidon's names are linked in one Pylos tablet, where they appear as PO-SE-DA-WO-NE and DA, referred to by the epithets Enosichthon, Seischthon and Ennosigaios, all meaning "earth-shaker" and referring to his role in causing earthquakes. One wonders, well, I do, if Poseidon can actually be compared to King Minos. Being referred to in the Linear B tablets as a King... Edited December 17, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #556 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Bloody hell, I love this topic and just spent an eon typing a reply to your 2 interesting posts Abe and my stooooooooopid internet connection dropped out when I posted it so I lost it all. I will retype soon...but this info really is great and if you keep digging I think you will find it really great to research, the Tassili rock paintings show some wonderful things, a trident can be found too as well as pictures of women wearing linen dresses like the Egyptians later wore, with one breast showing as the fabric goes on a slant. Check it out. Poseidon can be found there even back to Homer who tells us how Jason gets lost and the Argo ends up in there and then Herodotus adds that a tribe in the Sahara have ancient connections to the Trojans and also dress like Athena is portrayed! The whole connection is super interesting imo, Akrotiri excavations show the famous painting of them sailing to North Africa which tells us the people of Crete and Thera did indeed have relations with North African people and could easily have bought the God Poseidon and Athena back with them, the whole story of Demeter fits in too...the myths have them jumbled but breaking it down with ancient writing and archaeology makes it fit better, Demeter and Poseidon can be found in Crete with Linear B writings and they do have a relationship in Greek myth. I've run out of time and have rambled on a heap here but later on tonight I'll be back to spend some more time on answering your actual posts, my fave subject about it all... Edited to take out more rambling, I want to expand more later tonight. I can imagine that the Trojan survivors of the Troyan war fled in ships to North Africa... as well as the survivors of the destruction of Crete by the Santorini volcano eruption. And that could explain the Caucasian/white features of the people depicted in those rock paintings found in the Sahara desert. Another thing, I have read long ago that Cyprus once had close connections with the Middle east/ Canaan, and some say that the inhabitants of ancient Cyprus even originated there. Sailing in the Meditteranean was much more advanced, I think, than was once assumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #557 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Just for some general reading, scroll about 2/3 way down Matilda's Anthropoly Blog for the pic at the top, it wasn't actually the one I was looking for but shows women in Tassili from 3000BC, quite an advanced nature really...also just under where you read about them (after all the Egypt stuff)you can see some old coins from Carthage...the first thing that struck me was their noses...that being considering that these Phoenicians were suppose to be from Canaan...those noses look very Greek to me rather than Semitic or even Jewish. Not that it's a huge point but in the circumstances to see Carthaginians with noses like that raises some questions for me. Also they show no trace of being black, even the Libyan prisoner of Rameses you can see just above Herodotus map is not black. The Nubians are but not the Libyans. OOps try this link instead..scroll down past the Egypt stuff.. http://mathildasanth...m/2008/page/22/ Yep, Mathilda's blog is always great reading. But about those people living around the Tassili mountains..here's another pic of another site: A hunter with Negroid features, about 5.5 feet in height, holds an arrow in his right hand and a heavy bow in the left in Tassili n' Agger, Algeria, 6000 B.C. http://wysinger.homestead.com/badarians.html And there are many more depicting black Africans. But they are like 3000 years older than those depicting Caucasians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #558 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) The picture of the women I am trying to find is called The Peul Girls in Saharan Rock Art, it's in a book I have but I cannot seem to find it on the internet...I'd take a pic and post it here but I am probably breaching some copyright... Edited to add this...Poseidon-Wiki Linear B tablets show that Poseidon was venerated at Pylos and Thebes in pre-Olympian Bronze Age Greece, but he was integrated into the Olympian gods as the brother of Zeus and Hades. So, it is useful not to take too much notice of the Greek myths when seeking the Gods real source, a common mistake in looking for Atlantis and my point before in you can't look for Atlantis by looking for "Atlantis" as such...even though you can then find a similar comparison in the myths imo. I'll do a PPS edit save starting a new post since Ive already done 5 in a row... From Poseidon - Wiki again... The name seems to transparently stem from Greek pósis "lord, husband" with a less-transparent -don element, perhaps from dea, "goddess". If surviving Linear B clay tablets can be trusted, the name PO-SE-DA-WO-NE ("Poseidon") occurs with greater frequency than does DI-U-JA ("Zeus"). A feminine variant, PO-SE-DE-IA, is also found, indicating a lost consort goddess, in effect a precursor of Amphitrite. Tablets from Pylos record sacrificial goods destined for "the Two Queens and Poseidon" and to "the Two Queens and the King". The most obvious identification for the "Two Queens" is with Demeter and Persephone, or their precursors, goddesses who were not associated with Poseidon in later periods.[2] In Mycenaean Knossos, Poseidon is already identified as "Earth-Shaker" (E-NE-SI-DA-O-NE),[3] then a powerful attribute, for earthquakes had accompanied the collapse of the Minoan palace-culture. In the heavily sea-dependent Mycenaean culture, no connection between Poseidon and the sea has yet surfaced; among the Olympians it was determined by lot that he should rule over the sea [4]: the god preceded his realm. Demeter and Poseidon's names are linked in one Pylos tablet, where they appear as PO-SE-DA-WO-NE and DA, referred to by the epithets Enosichthon, Seischthon and Ennosigaios, all meaning "earth-shaker" and referring to his role in causing earthquakes. One wonders, well, I do, if Poseidon can actually be compared to King Minos. Being referred to in the Linear B tablets as a King... Peul Girls: http://ennedi.free.fr/abaniora.htm http://www.egyptsear...ic;f=8;t=005083 Btw, Puzzler, have you checked what is known about the Pelasgians, the original inhabitants of Greece and it's islands, before the later Greek tribes invaded their land? http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pelasgians Because if we have to believe what that Egyptian priest in the Atlantis story said, then we must look further back, to before the time the ancestors of the presnt day Greeks arrived in Greece and Crete. . Edited December 17, 2009 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #559 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Yep, Mathilda's blog is always great reading. But about those people living around the Tassili mountains..here's another pic of another site: A hunter with Negroid features, about 5.5 feet in height, holds an arrow in his right hand and a heavy bow in the left in Tassili n' Agger, Algeria, 6000 B.C. http://wysinger.homestead.com/badarians.html And there are many more depicting black Africans. But they are like 3000 years older than those depicting Caucasians. Yes true, many ancient black people rock art indeed, I guess I meant and should have been clearer that even in the time of Ramesses around 1250BC the Libyan was depicted as white skinned. As by your pic it can be seen the people of the same area were black. So at some stage there became a white presence in the area of Libya by 1250BC. I am just using general black/white terms here. OK, so here is who they probably were, the Berbers... http://www.somalipress.com/libya-overview/history-ancient-libya-1083.html The first inhabitants of Libya were Berber tribes. In the 7th century B.C., Phoenicians colonized the eastern section of Libya, called Cyrenaica, and Greeks colonized the western portion, called Tripolitania. Archaeological evidence indicates that from as early as the 8th millennium BC, Libya's coastal plain was inhabited by a Neolithic people who were skilled in the domestication of cattle and the cultivation of crops. The area known in modern times as Libya was later occupied by a series of peoples, with the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines ruling all or part of the area. Although the Greeks and Romans left ruins at Cyrene, Leptis Magna and Sabratha, little other evidence remains of these ancient cultures. To the south, in what is now the Sahara Desert, nomadic hunters and herders roamed a vast, well-watered savanna that abounded in game and provided pastures for their stock. Their culture flourished until the region began to desiccate after 2000 B.C. Scattering before the encroaching desert and invading horsemen, the savanna people migrated into the Sudan or were absorbed by the Berbers. The origin of the Berbers is a mystery, the investigation of which has produced an abundance of educated speculation but no solution. Archaeological and linguistic evidence strongly suggests southwestern Asia as the point from which the ancestors of the Berbers may have begun their migration into North Africa early in the third millennium B.C. Over the succeeding centuries they extended their range from Egypt to the Niger Basin. Caucasians of predominantly Mediterranean stock, the Berbers present a broad range of physical types and speak a variety of mutually unintelligible dialects that belong to the Afro-Asiatic language family. They never developed a sense of nationhood and have historically identified themselves in terms of their tribe, clan, and family. Collectively, Berbers refer to themselves simply as imazighan, to which has been attributed the meaning "free men." Inscriptions found in Egypt dating from the Old Kingdom (ca. 2700-2200 B.C.) are the earliest known recorded testimony of the Berber migration and also the earliest written documentation of Libyan history. At least as early as this period, troublesome Berber tribes, one of which was identified in Egyptian records as the Levu (or "Libyans"), were raiding eastward as far as the Nile Delta and attempting to settle there. During the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2200-1700 B.C.) the Egyptian pharaohs succeeded in imposing their overlordship on these eastern Berbers and extracted tribute from them. Many Berbers served in the army of the pharaohs, and some rose to positions of importance in the Egyptian state. One such Berber officer seized control of Egypt in about 950 B.C. and, as Shishonk I, ruled as pharaoh. His successors of the twentysecond and twenty-third dynasties--the so-called Libyan dynasties (ca. 945-730 B.C.)--are also believed to have been Berbers. Looks like Poseidon may have been a Berber...a Meshwesh according to Egyptians, an ally of the Sea People. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Libya Homer also names Libya, in Odyssey iv: Menelaus had travelled there on his way home from Troy; it was a land of wonderful richness, where the lambs have horns as soon as they are born, where ewes lamb three times a year and no shepherd ever goes short of milk, meat or cheese. A land of wonderful richness, where Poseidon came from, in a people who seemed to originate in South Western Asia before entering Libya displacing the black people, remember the Garamantes, Herodotus tells us how they used to hunt Ethiopians in their chariots..maybe an ages old practice, OK, then they are part of the Sea People who 'invaded' Egypt and with Shishak eventually becoming Pharoah the Libyans indeed did subjugate Egypt... and I again repeat that I think these Northern Libyans did have contact with the Aegean. I don't even have a real point here just stuff I feel is worth mentioning.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #560 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) Yes true, many ancient black people rock art indeed, I guess I meant and should have been clearer that even in the time of Ramesses around 1250BC the Libyan was depicted as white skinned. As by your pic it can be seen the people of the same area were black. So at some stage there became a white presence in the area of Libya by 1250BC. I am just using general black/white terms here. OK, so here is who they probably were, the Berbers... http://www.somalipre...libya-1083.html The first inhabitants of Libya were Berber tribes. In the 7th century B.C., Phoenicians colonized the eastern section of Libya, called Cyrenaica, and Greeks colonized the western portion, called Tripolitania. Archaeological evidence indicates that from as early as the 8th millennium BC, Libya's coastal plain was inhabited by a Neolithic people who were skilled in the domestication of cattle and the cultivation of crops. The area known in modern times as Libya was later occupied by a series of peoples, with the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines ruling all or part of the area. Although the Greeks and Romans left ruins at Cyrene, Leptis Magna and Sabratha, little other evidence remains of these ancient cultures. To the south, in what is now the Sahara Desert, nomadic hunters and herders roamed a vast, well-watered savanna that abounded in game and provided pastures for their stock. Their culture flourished until the region began to desiccate after 2000 B.C. Scattering before the encroaching desert and invading horsemen, the savanna people migrated into the Sudan or were absorbed by the Berbers. The origin of the Berbers is a mystery, the investigation of which has produced an abundance of educated speculation but no solution. Archaeological and linguistic evidence strongly suggests southwestern Asia as the point from which the ancestors of the Berbers may have begun their migration into North Africa early in the third millennium B.C. Over the succeeding centuries they extended their range from Egypt to the Niger Basin. Caucasians of predominantly Mediterranean stock, the Berbers present a broad range of physical types and speak a variety of mutually unintelligible dialects that belong to the Afro-Asiatic language family. They never developed a sense of nationhood and have historically identified themselves in terms of their tribe, clan, and family. Collectively, Berbers refer to themselves simply as imazighan, to which has been attributed the meaning "free men." Inscriptions found in Egypt dating from the Old Kingdom (ca. 2700-2200 B.C.) are the earliest known recorded testimony of the Berber migration and also the earliest written documentation of Libyan history. At least as early as this period, troublesome Berber tribes, one of which was identified in Egyptian records as the Levu (or "Libyans"), were raiding eastward as far as the Nile Delta and attempting to settle there. During the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2200-1700 B.C.) the Egyptian pharaohs succeeded in imposing their overlordship on these eastern Berbers and extracted tribute from them. Many Berbers served in the army of the pharaohs, and some rose to positions of importance in the Egyptian state. One such Berber officer seized control of Egypt in about 950 B.C. and, as Shishonk I, ruled as pharaoh. His successors of the twentysecond and twenty-third dynasties--the so-called Libyan dynasties (ca. 945-730 B.C.)--are also believed to have been Berbers. Looks like Poseidon may have been a Berber...a Meshwesh according to Egyptians, an ally of the Sea People. http://en.wikipedia....i/Ancient_Libya Homer also names Libya, in Odyssey iv: Menelaus had travelled there on his way home from Troy; it was a land of wonderful richness, where the lambs have horns as soon as they are born, where ewes lamb three times a year and no shepherd ever goes short of milk, meat or cheese. A land of wonderful richness, where Poseidon came from, in a people who seemed to originate in South Western Asia before entering Libya displacing the black people, remember the Garamantes, Herodotus tells us how they used to hunt Ethiopians in their chariots..maybe an ages old practice, OK, then they are part of the Sea People who 'invaded' Egypt and with Shishak eventually becoming Pharoah the Libyans indeed did subjugate Egypt... and I again repeat that I think these Northern Libyans did have contact with the Aegean. I don't even have a real point here just stuff I feel is worth mentioning.. So, we should not focus on these late-comers (who came from around the Middle East, Greece, Crete and Turkey) , but on the Berber tribes instead for they must have been living in that area for many thousands of years longer. And of course, on those Pelasgians... Edited December 17, 2009 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #561 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Peul Girls: http://ennedi.free.fr/abaniora.htm http://www.egyptsear...ic;f=8;t=005083 Btw, Puzzler, have you checked what is known about the Pelasgians, the original inhabitants of Greece and it's islands, before the later Greek tribes invaded their land? http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Pelasgians Because if we have to believe what that Egyptian priest in the Atlantis story said, then we must look further back, to before the time the ancestors of the presnt day Greeks arrived in Greece and Crete. . Thanks for the links although my book shows a reproduced image of them I have never seen the actual rock art, I'd be interested in a better pic but never mind, all good. The Pelasgians give me a headache. BUT if I have to I'm with good old Herodotus again...the Wiki link you gave. Some forty years ago excavations on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites in Attica brought to light many indications of neolithic life - dwellings, vases, tools, skeletons of sheep - which confirmed the traditions recorded by Herodotus that the Athenians were descended from the Pelasgians, the neolithic inhabitants of Thessaly. By accounts from Herodotus also, they had no Gods and the Gods were bought in from Egypt, except Poseidon, the Dioscuri and a few others. Bit of an enigma they are to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #562 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Thanks for the links although my book shows a reproduced image of them I have never seen the actual rock art, I'd be interested in a better pic but never mind, all good. The Pelasgians give me a headache. BUT if I have to I'm with good old Herodotus again...the Wiki link you gave. Some forty years ago excavations on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites in Attica brought to light many indications of neolithic life - dwellings, vases, tools, skeletons of sheep - which confirmed the traditions recorded by Herodotus that the Athenians were descended from the Pelasgians, the neolithic inhabitants of Thessaly. By accounts from Herodotus also, they had no Gods and the Gods were bought in from Egypt, except Poseidon, the Dioscuri and a few others. Bit of an enigma they are to say the least. A better pic of the Peul girls... Maybe you should search, using an alternative name, like Fula or Fulani: Peul or Fula/Fulani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_people http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/ But no rock art here, sorry. From the same Pelasgian link: (...) The Danaids call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan[25] (accusative case, and in the Dorian dialect), which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes ... genos).[26] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[27] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io. (...) He [..Herodotes..] states that the Pre-Hellenic Pelasgians of Athens were called Cranai[43] and that the Pelasgian population among the Ionians of the Peloponnesus were the Aegialian Pelasgians.[44] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #563 Share Posted December 17, 2009 So, we should not focus on these late-comers (who came from around the Middle East, Greece, Crete and Turkey) , but on the Berber tribes instead for they must have been living in that area for many thousands of years longer. And of course, on those Pelasgians... I would think so, yes. Since it was the Berbers that Herodotus would have been talking about when mentioning the Libyans. If indeed they only arrived in the 2nd millenium BC from South Western Asia there is a good chance Poseidon came with them...since Gods were already well established in Sumer and surrounding areas at that time. There is some links to the ancient Poseidon being in Babylon as , whats his name...um...starts with S, mental blank, the late God the Greeks bought in to keep everyone happy..looks like Poseidon, anyone?? Poseidon always did have children that were monsters...he was a definite foreigner and earthquakes are notorious in that area...so, in saying that Poseidon was a Libyan God, he could have come over with them from the area they reckon the Berbers came from...but from all ancient accounts they didn't know this, it is all recent research...would account for the knowledge the Libyans have of the chariots and the bow.. Pelasgians, possibly (Thessalians)Aeolians then, I believe there is a myth that says Poseidon had twin sons with Arne, an Aeolian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #564 Share Posted December 17, 2009 A better pic of the Peul girls... Maybe you should search, using an alternative name, like Fula or Fulani: Peul or Fula/Fulani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_people http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/the-mtdna-of-fulani-nomads/ But no rock art here, sorry. From the same Pelasgian link: (...) The Danaids call the country the "Apian hills" and claim that it understands the karbana audan[25] (accusative case, and in the Dorian dialect), which many translate as "barbarian speech" but Karba (where live the Karbanoi) is in fact a non-Greek word. They claim to descend from ancestors in ancient Argos even though they are of a "dark race" (melanthes ... genos).[26] Pelasgus admits that the land was once called Apia but compares them to the women of Libya and Egypt[27] and wants to know how they can be from Argos on which they cite descent from Io. (...) He [..Herodotes..] states that the Pre-Hellenic Pelasgians of Athens were called Cranai[43] and that the Pelasgian population among the Ionians of the Peloponnesus were the Aegialian Pelasgians.[44] Yes, I should. I was going to mention that writing by Pelasgus...they could be from Argo and be like the women or Libya and Egypt if I am correct in my assumption that people from Thera had visited North Africa, migrated to the mainland after the eruption to the closest place, Thessaly and then spread down to Argos or even as Herodotus opens with, Argos being a main port of call for the Phoenicians who then also went to Egypt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarLord Posted December 17, 2009 #565 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I found this yesterday: THE SANSKRIT WRITINGS Sanskrit Text of Mahabharata The Sanskrit writings of ancient India contain several descriptions of Atlantis, and even assert that Atlantis was destroyed as the result of a war between the gods and Asuras (recalling the war between the gods and the Titans). Present day scholars are so steeped in Greek and Roman (western) literature that Indian sources are too often ignored. A passage in Sanskrit from the Mahabharata The Vishnu Purana (circa. 2000 B.C.), one of the oldest of the Hindu Puranas, speaks of "Atala, the White Island," one of the seven dwipas (islands) belonging to Patala (Book II, chaps. i, ii, and iii). This old text locates Atala geographically on the seventh (heat, or climate) zone, which according to Francis Wilford (the translator) is 24 to 28 degrees north latitude, putting it in the same latitude as the Canary Islands just off the North African coast. Col. Wilford rightly calls Atala, "Atlantis, the White Island". (Wilford, 1808) At least one "authority" has attempted to identify Atala with Italy, but Italy is not an island. Also, Italy is 38 to 45 degrees north latitude. Finally, I fail to see any possibility that the "Western Ocean," mentioned as its location, could be the Mediterranean when the Karna Parva of the Mahabharata clearly describes Africa as comprising that ocean's eastern shoreline--placing that body of water clearly to the west of Africa. Another non-Sanskrit scholar implies that Atala might be one of the well-known northern lands, such as Iceland or Greenland, and that the epithet "White Island" refers to its being covered with snow the majority of the time--even the mythological Hyperborea has been suggested. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. Atala and Sveta Dwipa ("White Island") are not the only names for Atlantis in Sankrit lore. Another name, Saka Dwipa, is used just as often in the Puranas; and according to the Sanskrit Dictionary, Saka Dwipa means "island of fair skinned people." It therefore appears that "white" refers to the skin color of its inhabitants, rather than to the dominant color of the island--although it should not be imagined that all Atlanteans were white-skinned. The terms "Atala" and "White Island" are used also by the Bhavishya Purana (4th cent. B.C.). Here it is stated that Samba, having built a temple dedicated to Surya (the Sun), made a journey to Saka Dwipa, located "beyond the salt water" looking for the Magas (magicians), worshippers of the Sun. He is directed in his journey by Surya himself (i.e., journeys west following the Sun), riding upon Garuda (the flying vehicle of Krishna and Vishnu) he lands at last among the Magas. The Mahabharata (circa. 600 B.C.) also refers to "Atala, the White Island", which is described as an "island of great splendour." It continues: "The men that inhabit that island have complexions as white as the rays of the Moon and they are devoted to Narayana . . . Indeed, the denizens of White Island believe and worship only one God." (Santi Parva, Section CCCXXXVII) I do have my critics on this issue. Despite the minute and detailed descriptions of the location, culture and technology of Atala provided in the Sanskrit literature, there are those who disagree. For instance, it has been alledged that Plato called Atlantis "a continent," whereas Atala was only an island; therefore, it is reasoned, they could not be one and the same. In actual fact, Plato never calls Atlantis a continent: only a "large island". That Atala is also a very large island can be deduced from the Mahabharata, which describes Atala as having a capital city (Tripura), other major cities with houses, palaces, and streets, and as being populated by numerous tribes, some of whom chose to wage war against other nations. This is not a description of a small island. It has also been alleged that the Sanskrit word tala means "place": its negative (a-tala) would then mean "no-place". But, according to the Sanskrit Dictionary tala means a "surface," "plane" or "land". Atala is the "name of a hell," "bottomless," "at the bottom" (McDonnell, 1974).* It is not unusual for a destroyed or sunken land like Atala to re-emerge in later religion as a "land of the departed" (whether hell or paradise). Among the Egyptians, Amentet ("Land of the West") eventually became the "realm of the dead". The ancient Sanskrit literature contains more than one account of a powerful islandic empire in the Atlantic which sank to the bottom of the "Western Ocean" ending a horrendous war. Although originally described in the Mahabharata as an island in the far West, in modern parlance Atala has become a "hell", and its original inhabitants (Daityas, Danavas, Asuras) "demons". The Santi Parva also describes Atala as being inhabited by white men who never have to sleep or eat. (Ibid.) Interestingly enough, the Greek historian Herodotus (450 B.C.) describes a tribe of Atlanteans who "never dream and eat no living thing". (History, Book IV) Can this be coincidence? And just as the god Poseidon is very much involved in the Atlantis story, likewise in the Sanskrit accounts we find Varuna (the Hindu Poseidon) very much involved in Atala. In other words, Atala, the White Island is remarkably similar to Plato's Atlantis, even down to its circular capital city, Tripura! Tripura is made in three concentric parts, just as Plato's Metropolis is divided into three parts by concentric canals. During the war of the gods and Asuras, the wicked cities of the Asuras began to fall, one by one, amidst loud cries of woe: "Burning those Asuras, he [the hero] threw them down into the Western ocean" (Karna Parva, Section XXXIV). Concerning the "concentric arrangment" of Tripura, a recent archeological discovery of a fortified palace in Bactria, India, known as Dashly-3, turned out to be a concentric 3-ringed structure of the "tripura type". [Their words, not mine.] The archaeologists, excavating under the auspices of the Archaeological Departments of Pakistan and India (Mahadevan, 15), also state that the Dasyas, the builders of Dashly-3, were "Asura-worshippers". In the Surya Siddhanta, an ancient Sanskrit text on astronomy, the translator (W. D. Whitney, 1860) mentions an "island" (dwipa) called Jambu Dwipa, surrounded by rings of alternating land and water. I am tempted to equate Jambu Dwipa with the Atlantean capital, which Plato describes as surrounded by circular canals, "making alternate zones of sea and land" (Critias). The geographical specifics given in the above writings render the location of the powerful island civilization known as Atala beyond question: Atala was a large island, containing numerous cities, located off the western shore of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean. Following a tremendous war, the island with all its cities and inhabitants, was sent burning to the bottom of that ocean, after which peace prevailed. To attempt to separate these accounts from Plato's Atlantis is an exercise in triviality. I believe the above accounts constitute ample evidence that my years of research have not been wasted. Perhaps literary scholars' assertion that no pre-Platonic accounts of Atlantis exist should be seriously reconsidered. # TOP of Page NOTES *These extremely old traditions were formed more than 10,000 years ago when the Aryans of India were living in Central Europe--before they became literate. The initial a of Atala may not represent the negative. It is possible that the name Atala came about by adding the prepositional prefix ati, meaning "over," "beyond," to the word tala (land). The result would initially be Ati-tala which could later be contracted to At'tala, a "land beyond" [the horizon]. Such a derivation corresponds to the Sunset Land of several nations who had traditions of a sunken homeland. The double t (resulting from contraction, and not pronounced) would easily have been dropped by the time writing was adopted. [back] http://www.atlantisquest.com/Writings.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #566 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Anyway I'm assuming lots here and my brain is starting to spin, bedtime for me. I am interested in anything else you bring up though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #567 Share Posted December 17, 2009 StarLord, I am also aware of this theory of it being in India and I don't discount it completely for several reasons but do you think the ancient Egyptians had this knowledge of the Vishnu Purana or would know this Indian history and that this area could be seen as having subjugated everyone in the Mediterranean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #568 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) The geographical specifics given in the above writings render the location of the powerful island civilization known as Atala beyond question: Atala was a large island, containing numerous cities, located off the western shore of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean. Following a tremendous war, the island with all its cities and inhabitants, was sent burning to the bottom of that ocean, after which peace prevailed. One minute this Atala is in the Atlantic, where does it say that anyway? Then they are finding the 'city' in Bactria, India. I find it all a bit holed... I'd have to read it all again and give it my full attention to comment much more... Night. Edited December 17, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 17, 2009 #569 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) H. H. Wilson considers it one of the oldest of the Puranas, and dates it to the first century BCE,[2] though Gavin Flood dates it later to the fourth century CE. Vishnu Purana - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu_Purana The post StarLord gave says: The Vishnu Purana (circa. 2000 B.C.), This time I am off to bed... Edited December 17, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted December 17, 2009 #570 Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) What I'd like to know is how these ancient Indians knew of what happened in the Atlantic. Edited December 17, 2009 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted December 17, 2009 #571 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Go on to bed Puzz. You're not missing much. The Mahabharata is online for free at sacred-texts.com I find no mention of Atala in the cited portions, though the "White Island" does appear there. Neither is mentioned in the cited portions of the Vishnu Purana. Here's what you'd have to accept for any of this to be true: MAITREYA.--You have related to me, Brahman, the creation of Swáyambhuva; I am now desirous to hear from you a description of the earth: how many are its oceans and islands, its kingdoms and its mountains, its forests and rivers and the cities of the gods, its dimensions, its contents, its nature, and its form. PARÁŚARA.--You shall hear, Maitreya, a brief account of the earth from me: a full detail I could not give you in a century. The seven great insular continents are Jambu, Plaksha, Sálmali, Kuśa, Krauncha, Śáka, and Pushkara: and they are surrounded severally by seven great seas; the sea of salt water (Lavańa), of sugar-cane juice (Ikshu), of wine (Surá), of clarified butter (Sarpi), of curds (Dadhi), of milk (Dugdha), and of fresh water (Jala) 1. Vishnu Purana Book II Chapter II As you can see, when they say "sea of milk," they MEAN sea of milk and not some whitish ocean. Atala is one of the seven levels of the Hindu underworld. There is simply no doubting this fact. I have never been able to locate any passage in any Vedic text that indicates that it was ever above ground, but I'm not exactly a Vedic scholar so anyone feel free to correct me (and hopefully provide a link to actual Vedic work that so states.) Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma_Acid Posted December 17, 2009 #572 Share Posted December 17, 2009 What I'd like to know is how these ancient Indians knew of what happened in the Atlantic. Where does it say anything about the Atlantic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 18, 2009 #573 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Where does it say anything about the Atlantic? I dunno and I already asked the same question... One minute this Atala is in the Atlantic, where does it say that anyway? Then they are finding the 'city' in Bactria, India. I find it all a bit holed... There were heaps of interesting things being discussed here and then this red herring thrown in which is really from the first sentence wrong as I just showed the Vishnu Purana to be from the first century BC not from 2000BC. So, I'm going back to where we were..Poseidon and Libya. You can all do whatever.. The God I was trying to think of that started with S was Sarapis/Serapis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis The earliest mention of a Serapis is in the disputed death scene of Alexander (323 BC).[3] Here, Serapis has a temple at Babylon, and is of such importance that he alone is named as being consulted on behalf of the dying king. His presence in Babylon would radically alter perceptions of the mythologies of this era, though fortunately it has been discovered that the unconnected Babylonian god Ea (Enki) was titled Serapsi, meaning king of the deep, and it is possibly this Serapsi which is referred to in the diaries. Fortunate hey? Unnconnected it seems... King of the Deep So, Serapsi in Babylon was Enki, the king of the deep. Not Serapis...or that would radically alter things considerably, lucky that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 18, 2009 #574 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The early Alexandrian Christian community appears to have been rather syncretic in their worship of Serapis and Jesus and would prostrate themselves without distinction between the two. Serapis - Wiki Hey maybe Jesus was an Annunaki!! Couldn't help that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted December 18, 2009 #575 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) The Egyptians considered some Egyptian deities to have had a Libyan origin, such as Neith who has been considered, by Egyptians, to have emigrated from Libya to establish her temple at Sais in the Nile Delta. Some legends tell that Neith was born around Lake Tritons (In modern Tunisia). Berber mythology - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_mythology Neith being compared to Athena, there is the link to her being the Goddess of the Greeks and the Egyptians in Sais. Edited December 18, 2009 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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