Atlantis

[The Puzzler]

Found this an interesting little find...

Pisindon & Lake Tritonis:

Being in close proximity to Shat al-Jareed (the Palm Shore), the ancient Lake Tritonis, one can, with great reserve, suggest a link between the area of Abu-Kammash (as a whole) and prehistoric Lake Tritonis, where Herodotus informs us that the Libyan Amazons worshiped the Libyan Triple Goddess Neith. But, in addition to its geographical proximity, the ancient Greco-Phoenician name of Abu-Kammash, namely Pisindon, may be connected with the Libyan Sea-God Poseidon. To venture into the sea in those days one must seek the blessing of the gods, particularly Poseidon and Neith, both of whom were associated with water. In fact ancient Egyptian and Phoenician boats clearly carried the symbols of Neith as a form of protection. The association of Pisindon with Poseidon and the sea is also apparent from another ancient harbour with an identical name, namely the Pisindon Harbour, near today's Zwagha (Sabratha), which some think is Zuwarah itself. According to the Greek philosopher Plato, Poseidon was the king and also the chief God of the lost Atlantis, which Robert Graves connects with Lake Tritonis, and which others have connected with the Atlas Mountains in North Africa - so named after Poseidon's son Atlas.

http://www.temehu.com/Cities_sites/abu-kammash.htm

[innerverse]

I came accross a book called "the atlantis encyclopedia". Has anyone red this? Apparently the goal of the book is to summarise in an academic way all the information known about the myth of atlantis, through written historical accounts and various mythological and prehistoric references in the folklore of many different civilizations through the globe.An example, (i'm now reading the "A" terms):

Aalu

Ancient Egyptian for "The Isle of Flame," descriptive of a large, volcanic island in the Distant West (the Atlantic Ocean). It physically matches Plato's Atlantis virtually detail for detail: mountainous, with canals, luxuriant crops, apalatial city surrounded by great walls decorated with precious metals, etc. Aalu'searliest known reference appears in The Destruction of Mankind, a New Kingdom history (1299 B.C.) discovered in the tomb of Pharaoh Seti-I, at Abydos. His city was the site of the Osireion, a subterranean monument to the Great Flood that destroyed a former age of greatness.On the other side of the world from Egypt, the Apache Indians of the American Southwest claim their ancestors arrived after the Great Flood destroyed their homeland, still remembered as the "Isle of Flames," in the Atlantic Ocean.

Edited December 18, 2009 by innerverse

[Harte]

Poseidon was the king and also the chief God of the lost Atlantis, which Robert Graves connects with Lake Tritonis, and which others have connected with the Atlas Mountains in North Africa - so named after Poseidon's son Atlas.

Puzzler,

In the spirit of requiring accuracy, shouldn't you have noted that the above bolded statement is erroneous?

After all, the Atlas Mountains are named after the Titan Atlas, and his father was Iapetus.

Harte

[Qoais]

I hear an echo in here.

At the beginning of his narrative, Plato says his story is true. I think it was - in parts and parcels. I think he described a city that the Egyptians knew about, he described a society that HE treasured as perfect, and so on. But right from the beginning, his audience, all learned folks, would have known the story was a "story" because he said the Atlas mountains were named after Poseidon's son Atlas, when in fact those learned people knew the history of their gods, and knew that Atlas was the son of Iapetus, not Poseidon. Therefore, from this clue, his audience would realize it was not a factual story.

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler,

In the spirit of requiring accuracy, shouldn't you have noted that the above bolded statement is erroneous?

After all, the Atlas Mountains are named after the Titan Atlas, and his father was Iapetus.

Harte

No, not really, it was a linked website with some interesting info I thought I'd pass on...and it only says and which others have connected with the Atlas Mountains in North Africa - so named after Poseidon's son Atlas.

In the context of this being an Atlantis thread and we pretty much all know the father of Atlas is Iapetus in Greek myth but Poseidon is in Atlantis, I don't see any problem really. I noted it but didn't feel a need not to link it because of it...

[The Puzzler]

I hear an echo in here.

At the beginning of his narrative, Plato says his story is true. I think it was - in parts and parcels. I think he described a city that the Egyptians knew about, he described a society that HE treasured as perfect, and so on. But right from the beginning, his audience, all learned folks, would have known the story was a "story" because he said the Atlas mountains were named after Poseidon's son Atlas, when in fact those learned people knew the history of their gods, and knew that Atlas was the son of Iapetus, not Poseidon. Therefore, from this clue, his audience would realize it was not a factual story.

Hey yeah, good point Q!

I find the link to Iapetus being Noah's son sorta interesting though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus_%28mythology%29

Iapetus has (for example, by John Milton)[citation needed] been equated with Japheth (יֶפֶת), the son of Noah, based on the similarity of their names and on old Jewish traditions, that held Japheth as the ancestor of the Greeks, the Slavs, the Italics, the Teutons etc. (see Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews). The myth of Deucalion opposes this allegation.

So, as you can also see, one myth discounts that Iapetus can be equated with Japeth and that it also fits since Iapetus is indeed seen in myth as the ancestor of the Greeks, with Jospehus saying this also, Josephus says lots of interesting stuff that fits until you disect it into the myths, so maybe Josephus is indeed right and the Deucalion myth is wrong.

So, that is another reason I don't use one myth to discount another myth...

Just because the Greek myth says Iapetus is Atlas father, is he? If Iapetus is indeed seen as Japeth, son of Noah, is Atlas Noah's grandson, placing Poseidon in as Iapetus (Japeth) doesn't seem so odd anymore...Since this is an Egyptian story apparently, it is possible the Greek myth is wrong from the original myth or story that was originally known...you only have to look at Atlas mother...who is she?

Edited December 18, 2009 by The Puzzler

[Qoais]

The "Alas of Greek Mythology" was the Titan, Atlas, whose parents were Iapetus and Clymene.

[Qoais]

First generation:

After the speaker declares that he has received the blessings of the Muses, and thanks them for giving him inspiration, he explains that Chaos arose spontaneously. Chaos gives birth to Eros[5], while Gaia (Earth), the more orderly and safe foundation that would serve as a home for the gods and mortals, came afterwards. Tartarus (both a place below the earth as well as a deity) and Eros (Desire) also came into existence from nothing. Eros serves an important role in sexual reproduction, before which children had to be produced by means of parthenogenesis. From Chaos came Erebos (Darkness) and Nyx (Night). Erebos and Nyx reproduced to make Aither (Brightness) and Hemera (Day). From Gaia came Ouranos (Sky), the Ourea (Mountains), and Pontus (Sea).

Ouranos mated with Gaia to create twelve Titans: Oceanos, Coeus, Crius, Hyperion, Iapetos, Theia, Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Tethys, and Kronos; three Kyklopes (Cyclopes): Brontes, Steropes, and Arges; and three Hecatonchires: Kottos, Briareos, and Gyges.

[edit]

Second generation:

Ouranos was disgusted with his children, the Hecatonchires, so he hid them away somewhere in Gaia. Angered by this, she asked her children the Titans to punish their father. Only Kronos was willing to do so. Kronos castrated his father with a sickle from Gaia. The blood from Ouranos splattered onto the earth producing Erinyes (the Furies), Giants, and Meliai. Kronos threw the severed testicles into the Sea (Thalassa), around which foam developed and transformed into the goddess of Love, Aphrodite (which is why in some myths, Aphrodite was daughter of Ouranos and the goddess Thalassa).

Meanwhile, Nyx, though she married Erebos, produced children parthenogenetically: Moros (Doom), Oneiroi (Dreams), Ker and the Keres (Destinies), Eris (Discord), Momos (Blame), Philotes (Love), Geras (Old Age), Thanatos (Death), Moirai (Fates), Nemesis (Retribution), Hesperides (Daughters of Night), Hypnos (Sleep), Oizys (Hardship), and Apate (Deceit).

From Eris, following in her mother's footsteps, came Ponos (Pain), Hysmine (Battles), the Neikea (Quarrels), the Phonoi (Murders), Lethe (Oblivion), Makhai (Fight), Pseudologos (Lies), Amphilogia (Disputes), Limos (Famine), Androktasia (Manslaughters), Ate (Ruin), Dysnomia (Anarchy and Disobedient Lawlessness)), the Algea (Illness), Horkos (Oaths), and Logoi (Stories).

After Ouranos's castration, Gaia married Pontos and they have a descendent line consisting of sea deities, sea nymphs, and hybrid monsters. One child of Gaia and Pontos is Nereus (Old Man of the Sea), who marries Doris, a daughter of Oceanus and Tethys, and has Nereids, the fifty nymphs of the sea - one of whom is Thetis. Another child of Gaia and Pontos is Thaumas, who marries Electra, a sister of Doris, and has Iris (Rainbow) and two Harpies.

Phorkys and Keto, two siblings, marry each other and have the Graiae, the Gorgons, Echidna, and Ophion. Medusa, one of the Gorgons, has two children with Poseidon, the winged-horse Pegasus and giant Chrysaor, at the instant of her decapitation by Perseus. Chrysaor marries Callirhoe, another daughter of Okeanos, and has the three-headed Geryon.

Gaia also marries Tartaros and has Typhoeus, whom Echidna marries and has Orthos, Kerberos, Hydra, and Chimera. From Orthos and either Chimera or Echidna were born the Sphinx and the Nemean Lion.

In the family of the Titans, Okeanos and Tethys marry and have three thousand rivers (including the Nile and Skamandar) and three thousand Okeanid Nymphs (including Electra, Kalypso, and Styx). Theia and Hyperion marry and have Helios (Sun), Selene (Moon), and Eos (Dawn). Kreios and Eurybia marry to bear Astraios, Pallas, and Perses. Eos and Astraios will later marry and have Zephyros, Boreas, Notos, Eosphoros, Hesperos, Phosphoros and the Stars (foremost of which are Phaenon, Phaethon, Pyroeis, Stilbon, those of the Zodiac and those three acknowledged before). From Pallas and Styx (another Okeanid) came Zelos (Zeal), Nike (Victory), Cratos (Strength), and Bia (Force). Koios and Phoibe marry and have Leto, Asteria (who later marries Perses and has Hekate). Iapetos marries Klymene (an Okeanid Nymph) and had Atlas, Menoetius, Prometheus, and Epimetheus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony

Edited December 19, 2009 by Qoais

[Qoais]

Third and final generation

Kronos, having taken control of the Cosmos, wanted to ensure that he maintained power. Ouranos and Gaia prophesied to him that one of his children would overthrow him, so when he married Rhea, he made sure to swallow each of the children she birthed: Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, Zeus (in that order). However, Rhea asked Gaia and Ouranos for help in saving Zeus by sending Rhea to Crete to bear Zeus and giving Kronos a huge stone to swallow thinking that it was another of Rhea's children. Gaia then takes Zeus and hides him deep in a cave beneath the Aegean Mountains.

Tricked by Rhea (the Theogony does not detail how), Kronos vomits up his other 5 children. Joining with Zeus, they waged a great war on the Titans for control of the Cosmos. The war lasted ten years, with the Olympian gods, Cyclopes, Prometheus and Epimetheus, the children of Klymene, on one side, and the Titans and the Giants on the other (with only Oceanos as a neutral force). Eventually Zeus releases the Hundred-Handed ones to shake the earth, allowing him to gain the upper hand, and casts the fury of his thunderbolts at the Titans, throwing them into Tartaros. Zeus later must battle Typhoeus, a son of Gaia and Tartaros created because Gaia was angry that the Titans were defeated, and is victorious again.

Because Prometheus helped Zeus, he was not sent to Tartaros like the other Titans. However, Prometheus sought to trick Zeus. Slaughtering a cow, he took the valuable fat and meat, and sewed it inside the cow's stomach. Prometheus then took the bones and hid them with a thin layer of fat. Prometheus asked Zeus' opinion on which offering pile he found more desirable, hoping to trick the god into selecting the less desirable portion. However, Hesiod relates that Zeus saw through the trick and responded in a fury. Zeus declared that the ash tree would never hold fire, in effect denying the benefit of fire to man. In response, Prometheus sneaks into the gods' chambers and steals a glowing ember with a piece of reed.

For this theft, Zeus punishes Prometheus by chaining him to a cliff, where an eagle fed on his ever-regenerating liver every day. Prometheus would not be freed until Heracles, a son of Zeus, comes to free him. Since man had access to fire, Zeus devises woman as a general punishment in trade. Hephaistos and Athena build woman with exquisite detail, and she is considered beautiful by all men and gods (it is generally agreed in academic translations that this woman is Pandora). Despite her beauty, Hesiod writes that woman is a bane for mankind, attributing women with laziness and a waste of resources. Hesiod notes that Zeus' curse, womankind, can only bring man suffering as his wife, and any man who tries to avoid marriage will suffer.

Zeus marries seven wives. The first is the Oceanid Metis, whom he swallowed to avoid getting a son that, as happened with Kronos and Ouranos, would overthrow him, as well as to absorb her wisdom so that she can advise him in the future. He would later "give birth" to Athena from his head, which would anger Hera enough for her to produce her own son parthenogenetically, Typhaon, the part snake, part dragon sea monster, or in other versions Hephaistos, god of fire and blacksmiths. The second wife is Themis, who bears the three Horae (Hours) – Eunomia (Order), Dikē (Justice), Eirene (Peace) and the three Moirae (Fates) – Klotho (Spinner), Lachesis (Alotter), Atropos (Unturned), as well as Tyche. Zeus then married his third wife Eurynome, who bears the three Charites (Graces): Aglaia, Euphrosyne, and Thalia. The fourth wife is his sister Demeter, who bears Persephone. Persephone would later marry Hades, and bear Melinoe, Goddess of Ghosts, and Zagreus, God of the Orphic Mysteries, and Macaria, Goddess of the Blessed Afterlife. The fifth wife of Zeus is another aunt, Mnemosyne, from whom came the nine Muses – Kleio, Euterpe, Thaleia, Melpomene, Terpsikhore, Erato, Polymnia, Urania, and Kalliope. The sixth wife is Leto, who gives birth to Apollo and Artemis. The seventh and final wife is Hera, who gives birth to Hebe, Ares, Enyo, Hephaistos,and Eileithyia. Of course, though Zeus no longer marries, he still has affairs with many other women, such as Semele, mother of Dionysus, Danae, mother of Perseus, Leda, mother of Polydeukes and Helen, and Alkmene, the mother of Heracles, who marries Hebe.

Poseidon marries Amphitrite and produces Triton. Aphrodite, who married to Hephaistos, nevertheless has an affair with Ares to have Eros (Love), Phobos (Fear), Deimos (Cowardice), and Harmonia (Harmony), who would later marry Kadmos to sire Ino (who with her son, Melicertes would become a sea deity) Semele (Mother of Dionysos), Autonoë (Mother of Actaeon), Polydorus, and Agave (Mother of Pentheus). Helios and Perseis birth Kirke (Circe), who with Poseidon would mother Phaunos, God of the Forest, and with Dionysos mother Comos, God of Revelry and Festivity . And with Odysseus, she would later give birth to Agrius. Atlas' daughter Kalypso would give birth to Odysseus' children Telegonos, Teledamus, Latinus, Nausithoos, and Nausinous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony

[Qoais]

Atlantis in the Azores??

'Fried Egg' may be impact crater

The Egg and its companion obtained by multibeam echosounder bathymetry

'Fried Egg' may be impact crater

By Jonathan Amos

Science correspondent, BBC News, San Francisco

The Egg and its companion obtained by multibeam echosounder bathymetry

Portuguese scientists have found a depression on the Atlantic Ocean floor they think may be an impact crater.

The roughly circular, 6km-wide hollow has a broad central dome and has been dubbed the "Fried Egg" because of its distinctive shape.

It was detected to the south of the Azores Islands during a survey to map the continental shelf.

If the Fried Egg was made by a space impactor, the collision probably took place within the past 17 million years.

This is the likely maximum age of the basaltic sea-floor rock which harbours the feature.

"To be sure, we need to take samples and make a profile of the sediment layers to determine if there really is a central uplift from an impact," explained Dr Frederico Dias from EMEPC (Task Group for the Extension of the Portuguese Continental Shelf).

"We need also to see all the signatures that are consistent with a high velocity impact, like glasses from melting and, of course, debris; and what are called shatter cones (shocked rocks)," he told BBC News.

Central peaks

Dr Dias described the putative impact feature here at the American Geophysical Union's (AGU) Fall Meeting, the world's largest annual gathering of Earth scientists.

The Fried Egg was first identified in data gathered by a 2008 multibeam echosounder hydrographic survey. A further cruise from September to November this year confirmed its presence.

It lies under 2km of water about 150km from the Azores archipelago.

The depressed ring sits roughly 110m below the surrounding ocean bottom, with the circular dome-shaped central uplift 3km in diameter and with a base-to-top height of some 300m.

Central peaks are often associated with meteorite impacts and form when the compressed crater floor rebounds. A peak is not definitive proof of an impact, however.

A volcanic origin for the Fried Egg seems unlikely because the Portuguese team has not been able to find any lava flows within the structure or on its surroundings.

Second crater

Interestingly, there is another - but much smaller - feature just 3-4km to the west of the egg.

"It's just by the side. If the Fried Egg is a crater, this could be a crater also," speculated Dr Dias.

Dr Dias and colleagues are examining gravity and magnetic data gathered during September's cruise. A third expedition to the area early next year will use a remotely operated vehicle (ROV) to try to retrieve samples from the ocean floor for analysis.

The Portuguese team detailed the currently available Fried Egg data on a poster at the AGU meeting. Other researchers who came to view the information were split on the impact theory, Dr Dias said.

"Even if it's not an impact crater it's still a very interesting feature," he told the BBC.

The EMEPC is working under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea to establish the true extent of Portuguese territorial waters.

Jonathan.Amos-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8400264.stm

[The Puzzler]

The "Alas of Greek Mythology" was the Titan, Atlas, whose parents were Iapetus and Clymene.

# Clymene or Asia (mythology), an Oceanid, wife of Iapetus, and mother of Atlas, Epimetheus, Prometheus, and Menoetius

# Clymene, a Nereid, daughter of Nereus and Doris

# Clymene, a relative of Menelaus and a companion of Helen, together with whom she was carried off by Paris

# Clymene, an Oceanid, wife to King Merops of Ethiopia and, by Helios, mother of Phaëton

# Clymene, daughter of Catreus and mother of Palamedes by Nauplius

# Clymene, daughter of Minyas, wife of Phylacus, and mother of Iphiclus (Iphiclos)

# Clymene, mother of Atalanta and wife of Schoeneus or Iasus

# Clymene, mother of Deucalion by Prometheus

# Clymene, mother of Diomedes by Ares

# Clymene, wife of Merops of Miletus, and mother of Pandareus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clymene

[Abramelin]

Where does it say anything about the Atlantic?

It doesn't and hence my question.

[Abramelin]

We here are all focussing on ancient Greek legends.

But the Egyptians talked about their ancestors, the Pelasgians.

Yeah, I know, they didn't call them by that name, but the Greeks and their ancestors arrived long after of the war with Atlantis, according to Plato's story.

As soon as we know who these Pelasgians were we will know where the myth about Atlantis came from.

[Qoais]

Pelasgians

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The name Pelasgians (Ancient Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the Hellenes in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably autochthonous people in the Greek world."[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the autochthonous inhabitants of the Aegean lands and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as not Greek, even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the fifth century was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians.

The classification of the Pelasgian language(s), known only from non-Greek elements in Ancient Greek and detectable in some placenames, even whether or not Pelasgian was a single language, and the relationship of Pelasgians to prehistoric Hellenes are long-standing questions that have not received definitive answers. The field of study looks forward to additional evidence that may fill in the gaps. Many past and current theories exist. Some of them are colored by contemporary nationalist issues,[3] which compromise their objectivity.

Archaeological excavations during the 20th century have unearthed artifacts in areas traditionally inhabited by the Pelasgians, like Thessaly, Attica and Lemnos. Archaeologists excavating at Sesklo and Dimini have described Pelasgian material culture as Neolithic; others have related to Pelasgians material culture that is "Middle Helladic" and even the "Late Helladic" culture of Mycenaean Greece, where the corpus of brief inscriptions are already in an early form of Greek. Even the linking of archaeological material evidence to linguistic culture is called into question by Walter Pohl and other modern students of ethnogenesis.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

So - you'd be saying that the Egyptians were saying their ancestors were Greek?

Pelasgians

by Daphne Elliott

Before recorded Time, (c. 900 BCE) but during an active migration era of prehistoric Greece (c. 10,000 BCE), a people came into the Pelaponnesus, presumably from the north, and settled around the eastern Mediterranian coast and its islands, Sicily, Lamapadusa etc. They were called "Pelasgians," which has several specific meanings, depending on which tranlation one might be reading.

The word pelasgian means from the sea. It also means hairy. And to top it all, it means springing from the earth... sticks embedded in the earth that spring up in human form to populate their surroundings. From this we can conjure up a race of people that came from the sea, wore beards, and were "indigenous." Hence, they were the aborigines who settled the Pelaponnesus, coming before the Dorians. One might say they were the aboriginal ancestors of what we now call "Hellenes" -- today's Greeks as they have come down through the ages.

The Pelasgians were successful in establishing themselves and their culture in the land and sea. Apparently they espoused the existing cult worship of Hera, as there is still to be seen the ruins of a Temple dedicated to Hera which they built. They are credited also with being admirable house builders, taking a different approach from the old, cramped design. Instead of a hut, they used large stones for the base making a drier, more lasting habitat, which was quickly adopted by their neighbors.

They remain important in the grand sweep of Greek pre-history. Some ancient myths are even said to have begun with them. The myth of Helios' harnessing the sun to his chariot is said to date back to the Pelasgians.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pelasgians.html

Edited December 20, 2009 by Qoais

[Qoais]

Ancient Greek writers used the name "Pelasgian" to refer to groups of people who preceded the Hellenes and dwelt in several locations in Anatolia, the Aegean and mainland Greece, as neighbors of the Hellenes. Pelasgians spoke a language different from the Greeks. Scholars have since come to use the term "Pelasgian", somewhat indiscriminately, to indicate all the autochthonous inhabitants of these lands before the arrival of the Greeks, and in recent times it may refer to the indigenous, pre-Indo-European peoples of the Caucasus and of Asia Minor as well.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Pelasgian.htm

[stevemagegod]

How is this connected to Atlantis?

[The Puzzler]

We here are all focussing on ancient Greek legends.

But the Egyptians talked about their ancestors, the Pelasgians.

Yeah, I know, they didn't call them by that name, but the Greeks and their ancestors arrived long after of the war with Atlantis, according to Plato's story.

As soon as we know who these Pelasgians were we will know where the myth about Atlantis came from.

This is one of the comprehensive Pelasgian websites around, it gived direct links to every mention of the Pelasgians mentioned by every author of ancient times, seems the Pelasgians were everywhere and even in Northern Africa as the Libyans...and by about page 5 you get this round up...see what you make of it, I just read the 5 pages up to the following statements but have read it all a while back when discussing Atlantis with shemTov...

http://www.pelasgians.org/website5/32_01.htm

So, the Pelasgians had successively occupied, under various names, and during several thousand years, all the regions of Italy, from the Alps to the southern extremities of the peninsula: Istria, Liguria, Venetia, Umbria, Etruria, the Sabine territory, Latium, Campania, Apulia, Iapygia, Lucania, Brutiu and the neighboring islands Corsica, Sardinia and Sicilia.

All these populations who founded the first political life on the soil of Italy, some of them tougher, more warlike and famous, others more peaceful and laborious, like the natives, Ligurii, Istrii, Venetii, Umbrii, Tursenii (Etruscans), Sabinii, Latinii, Ramnii, Oenotrii, Peucetii, Iapygii, Siculii, Sicanii, belonged, according to the most ancient traditions of the Greeks and Romans, to the great family of the Pelasgian race

[The Puzzler]

How is this connected to Atlantis?

Because the story of Atlantis is actually about the most ancient Athenians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Athens

The name of Athens in Ancient Greek was Athḗnai (Ἀθῆναι, pronounced [aˈtʰɛːnai]). The etymology of the word is obscure and its origin Pre-Greek.[1] An etiological myth on how Athens acquired this name was well known amongst ancient Athenians and even became the theme of Parthenon's West pediment sculpture. Both Athena and Poseidon requested to be patrons and give their name to the city, so they competed, offering the city one gift each. Poseidon produced a spring by striking the ground with his trident, symbolizing naval power. Athena created the olive tree, symbolizing peace and prosperity. The Athenians under Cecrops accepted the olive tree and named the city after Athena. Athḗnai is a plural form: the city was called "The Athenses" since it was originally a group of ten cities which Theseus unified into one city. In his dialogs Cratylus, Plato gives the etymology of Athena's name based on the view of the ancient Athenians:

"That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athene "mind" [nous] and "intelligence" [dianoia], and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, "divine intelligence" [theou noesis], as though he would say: This is she who has the mind better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence [en ethei noesin], and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a nicer form, and called her Athene".

Plato, Cratylus, 407b

Thus for Plato her name was to be derived from Greek Ētheonóa (Ή-θεο-νόα) or Atheonóa (Ἀθεονόα) — which the Greeks rationalized as from god's (theos) mind (nous).

Interesting on the Pelasgians too when compared to that previous Pelasgian website I linked...

when you read this part from Pelasgians-Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer: those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the Iliad are among the allies of Troy.

[The Puzzler]

My personal opinion though is that the early people of Athens were NOT Pelasgians.

Here Herodotus gives an insight...

What language however the Pelasgians used to speak I am not able with certainty to say. But one must pronounce judging by those that still remain of the Pelasgians who dwelt in the city of Creston above the Tyrsenians, and who were once neighbors of the race now called Dorian, dwelling then in the land which is now called Thessaliotis, and also by those that remain of the Pelasgians that who settled at Plakia and Skylakē in the region of the Hellespont, who before that had been settlers with the Athenians,

Been settlers WITH the Athenians...

Thucydides says:

He regards the Athenians as having lived in scattered independent settlements in Attica but at some time after Theseus they changed residence to Athens, which was already populated. A plot of land below the Acropolis was called "Pelasgian" and was regarded as cursed, but the Athenians settled there anyway.

This could be more that the story of Poseidon and Athena's contest for Athens is a representation of Poseidon's Atlantis (possible Pelasgians - allies of Troy)in Greece as 'autochrons' vs the newcomers, the people who settled in Athens on Pelasgian soil under the Acropolis. Poseidon loses, as do the Pelasgians lose their land to the new advance of people who became the Athenians.

This just occurred to me as I read all this info but it does seem to have some sort of sense to it when I think about it enough... ??

Edited to add:

The Pelasgians are very ancient in Greece, the Athenians seem to be newcomers - not forgetting what Plato says either that Athenians and Greeks are related through Neith and that the Pelasgians did not have many if any Gods (one could see how Poseidon of earthquakes and sea could be part of ancient Greece, they did have many earthquakes and is surrounded by sea, if indeed earthquakes were associated with sea rises this could be a threat so something they needed to 'pray' for safely from the wrath of...but anyways...Herodotus says the Gods were taken to Greece...Dodona being the first Oracle taken there...hmmm, the onset of Athens does seem to coincide with the many Gods that became part of the Greek parthenon...this makes more sense to me as I go on because it puts into context the Pelasgians being on the Trojan side, Poseidon builds it with Apollo, also an ancient Etruscan God....Poseidons wrath against Troy because he didn't get paid could be cause for the end of Troy...his allies but also his enemy...? Poseidon is on the Archaean side by then...after Athena's win he became a fully fledged Olympian God rather than an old Pelasgian god of sea and earthquakes, maybe (making sense in my head)...

the Pelasgians website I linked claims Pelasgians can be found in Libya...Poseidon being Libyan...yes, he could be then also, since he has travelled to Libya with the Pelasgian people, originally from Greece....before the Egyptians arrived in Greece, possibly being who became the Hellenic Athenians...

Steve..guess what, I can even get the BLUE EYES in here, noting many Greeks actually have blue eyes and olive skin...the original European Pelasgians may have been the fairer kind with blue eyes and then as the Southern Egyptians via Phoenician sailors possibly landing in Argos or even related to the Cadmus myth came up north and intermixed they got the darker skin interbred in them...Artemis/Diana and her fair mother Leto/Latona who slayed Niobe children can fit into all this better too...Artemis is said to be Pelasgian...Ephesus, Pelasgian...the Egyptians and Phoenicians can almost be seen as one in this context so we don't actually need Pharoahs marching into ancient Greece...I'm sure Memnon fighting for Troy can fit into this too..as can all the clan of Helios and Perseis, Aeetes of Colchis originlly from Corinth.. his sister, none other than Pasaphae (Minos wife, mother of the Minotaur) Circe, Medea, Phaeton etc.. I need to think some more on this all.

Edited December 21, 2009 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

According to archaeological evidence, the capital of Thessaly, Larissa, lies atop a site that has been inhabited since the tenth millennium BCE.

The plains of Thessaly have been said to been covered in water several times, I was at this area quite a while back and got sidetracked down to Africa. Thessaly would have been likely inundated when Thera erupted also even causing a change to the landscape by possible earthquake. Aeolians.

Traces of Paleolithic human settlement have been recovered from the area, but it was peripheral to areas of advanced culture.[2] The area around Larissa was extremely fruitful; it was agriculturally important and in antiquity was known for its horses. The city finally moved closer to the rest of Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larissa

PERIPHERAL (pertaining) TO AREAS OF ADVANCED CULTURE!!???

Fruitful and horses...

OK, could Thessaly be the area Plato speaks of as Atlantis, I think this is a real possibilty. Having nearly cancelled out every other square metre of land on the planet I am left with this and it makes quite a lot of sense...imo

OK OK I know it is not in the Atlantic nor outside the Pillars of Heracles so you know, we have to work on that part of course....

What about the whole area the Pelasgians were scattered afterwards, that is a pretty big slab of land, Northern Africa to Italy...with Poseidon, a Pelasgian God? reaching Libya prior to Thera...and coming back via the Libyans interaction with Greece after Thera...?? Poseidon and Libya as Gods can possibly reconcile this problem..Remember the (possible) Mycenaean art back in the Saharan Rock Art link..

Edited December 21, 2009 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

One more for the night...

Because I have always maintained that the connection of the Persians is important in this considering the Persians were in the process of attacking Greece at the time Plato wrote this..I can't let the Phaeton myth pass either and Pasiphae is Phaetons fathers sister

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB

In Greek mythology, Pasiphaë (English: /pəˈsɪfə.iː/; Greek: Πασιφάη Pasipháē), "wide-shining"[1] was the daughter of Helios, the Sun, by the eldest[2] of the Oceanids, Perse;[3] Like her doublet Europa, her origins were in the East, in her case at Colchis, the palace of the Sun; she was given in marriage to King Minos of Crete. With Minos, she was the mother of Ariadne, Androgeus, Glaucus, Deucalion,(????) Phaedra, and Catreus. She was also the mother of "starlike" Asterion, called by the Greeks the Minotaur, after a curse from Poseidon caused her to experience lust for and mate with a white bull sent by Poseidon.[4] "The Bull was the old pre-Olympian Poseidon," Ruck and Staples remark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterion

According to Karl Kerenyi[3] and other scholars, the second Asterion, the star at the center of the labyrinth on Cretan coins, was in fact the Minotaur, as the compiler of Bibliotheca (III.1.4) asserts: "And she (Pasiphaë) gave birth to Asterius, who was called the Minotaur. He had the face of a bull, but the rest of him was human; and Minos, in compliance with certain oracles, shut him up and guarded him in the Labyrinth."

If we go with Ruck and Staples there, the Bull was pre-Olympian Poseidon, that would be Pelasgian Poseidon, the Minotaur being a remnant of Pelasgian pre-Olympian Poseidon birthed by a sister of the Sun, giving us the Cretan Bull God of The Sun....in the labyrinth, hidden away on Crete, until Theseus comes along...Atlantis story being set in the time BEFORE Theseus.

The end of the age of Taurus (Bull) and the start of the age of Aries (Ram)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Taurus#The_Age_of_Taurus

The Age of Taurus (The Taurean Age)

Symbol for Taurus:

The zodiacal signs:

the vernal equinox (northern hemisphere) is occurring in Taurus;

Timeframes

Zodiacal 30 degrees:

Heindel-Rosicrucian based interpretation: began in ca. 3814 BC and ended in ca. 1658 BC (the orb of influence started in ca. 4534 BC)

Neil Mann interpretation: began in ca. 4300 BC and ended in ca. 2150 BC.

Constellation boundary year:

Shephard Simpson interpretation: began ca. 4525 BC to ca. 1875 BC

Overview "The Age of Earth, Agriculture and the Bull"

Historical similarities Bull worshiping cults began to form in Assyria, Egypt, and Crete which relates to Taurus symbolizing the bull.

Main article: Bull (mythology)

This age is notable for the building of the Pyramids, during the Old Kingdom of Egypt and the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. They personify structure, solidity, stability and attempts at eternity, keywords of Taurus. The completed Great Pyramid of Khufu, clad in smooth pure white limestone, must have been a sight of dazzling beauty in the sunlight. Beauty is another keyword of Taurus.

Taurus is associated with the metal copper, and bronze (an alloy of copper and tin) was for the first time smelted and worked into bronze swords during the early phase of this era.

Papyrus was invented during this time, enabling improved writing techniques. It could be manufactured into very long strips that could be rolled (but not yet folded) into scrolls or rolls for efficient storage and handling. (The Taurus glyph invokes the image of the partially-unrolled scroll).

Traits of Taurus such as 'stubbornness' and 'strength' but at the same time 'sensuality' may be attributed to civilizations such as Ancient Egypt's.

Religious similarities

Ankh: thoracic vertebra of a bull - Egyptian symbol of life

Worship of Apis, the bull-deity (see also Bull (mythology)), the most important of all the sacred animals in Egypt, said to be instituted during the Second Dynasty of the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt and worshipped in the Memphis region until the New Kingdom (16th century BC).

When Moses was said to have descended from the mountain with the ten commandments in this time, his followers were worshipping a golden bull calf.

Marduk

[edit] The Age of Aries (The Arian Age)

Symbol for Aries:

The zodiacal signs:

the vernal equinox (northern hemisphere) is occurring in Aries;

Timeframes

Zodiacal 30 degrees:

Heindel-Rosicrucian based interpretation: began in ca. 1658 BC and ended in ca. AD 498

Neil Mann interpretation: began in ca. 2150 BCE and ended in ca. AD 1.

Constellation boundary year:

Shephard Simpson interpretation: began ca. 1875 BC to ca. 100 BC

Overview "The Age of War, Fire and the Ram"

Historical similarities Aries represents a Fire symbol as well as bold actions, a lot of these behaviors can be seen during any age. However, the themes emphasised during this age relate to courage, initiative, war & adventure. Nations during this age such as the expanding empires of China, Persia, Greece and Rome, are often cited as examples of the archetypes of Aries in action. Also the Aries constellation shows a ram running. This could correspond with the sacrifice of Abraham's Ram. While the number of names containing the sound of the ram during this period is noted: Ra (Sun God), Ram, Rama, Brahman, Brahma, Abram, Abraham, Amon Ra, and Ramesses I.[dubious – discuss] The battering ram was employed by the Assyrians, Greeks and Romans with great success during this time.[dubious – discuss] (The symbol of Mars, the planetary ruler of Aries, evokes this interpretation.)

Aries is associated with the metal iron, and iron ore was for the first time smelted and worked into iron swords in Anatolia during the early phase of this era, replacing the heavier, softer-metalled, duller-edged bronze swords of the previous Taurus Age.

Traits of Aries such as 'initiative' may suggest the explosion of originality in the development of social aspects, sciences and arts in regions such as Ancient Greece but at the same time traits such as 'Impulsivity' may be attributed to the various Wars of the time.

Religious similarities The Age of Aries ushered in efforts to replace polytheism with monotheism. The earliest known attempt was by the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten, who, in about 1350 BC, decreed the Sun God Aten to be the supreme deity, apparently in reaction to his earlier lack of inclusion in religious rites by his family. After his death, however, power reverted to the original polytheistic priests, who re-established the old religion. Speculation (including that of Freud) has it that later, during the reign of Ramesses II, Moses was influenced by rumour of Akhenaten's revolutionary idea, and grasped the idea of a single supreme God, Who especially favoured His people, as an inspirational mechanism that best suited his people held in bondage. The symbol of Aries can be seen as representing the power of multiple gods streaming down into a single god-head.

Moses (born circa 16th–13th Century BC; 7 Adar 2368 - 7 Adar 2488 in the Hebrew calendar), an early Biblical Hebrew religious leader, lawgiver, prophet, and military leader, condemns his own people upon finding them worshiping a 'golden calf' (a symbol of the previous Age of Taurus and of the worship of the bull deity) after coming down Mount Sinai. These events may have occurred during the Age of Aries (see also Dating the Exodus overview).

I probably should have posted all this in my own Atlantis thread...

[Abramelin]

If you believe what a philosopher like Plato had to say about some ancient civilization, you might as well consider what a 20th century philosopher had to say about that (based on what he heard from his father, an Armenian 'bard'):

In this legend it was said, also in verse, that long, long ago, as farback as seventy generations before the last deluge (and a generation was counted as a hundred years), when there was dry land where now is water and water where now is dry land, there existed on earth a great civilization, the centre of which was the former island Haninn, which was also the centre of the earth itself.

As I elucidated from other historical data, the island of Haninn was approximately where Greece is now situated.

http://4thway.vip.si...sh/meeting1.htm

http://www.gilgamesh..._imastun_en.htm

Edited December 21, 2009 by Abramelin

[Cryptid_Control]

How do we know plato wasent writing a childrens story.

maybe 10,000 years from now future people will find the book "walter the farting dog" and spend millions searching for his tomb. And make thousands of threads about him!

oh, great god walter, bless me with your farting powers

[Harte]

maybe 10,000 years from now future people will find the book "walter the farting dog" and spend millions searching for his tomb. And make thousands of threads about him!

If she's still around, I'm sure that The Puzzler will sniff him out as well.

Smarte Feller

[The Puzzler]

If you believe what a philosopher like Plato had to say about some ancient civilization, you might as well consider what a 20th century philosopher had to say about that (based on what he heard from his father, an Armenian 'bard'):

In this legend it was said, also in verse, that long, long ago, as farback as seventy generations before the last deluge (and a generation was counted as a hundred years), when there was dry land where now is water and water where now is dry land, there existed on earth a great civilization, the centre of which was the former island Haninn, which was also the centre of the earth itself.

As I elucidated from other historical data, the island of Haninn was approximately where Greece is now situated.

http://4thway.vip.si...sh/meeting1.htm

http://www.gilgamesh..._imastun_en.htm

Interesting Abe, Armenia, even more so...

The native Armenian name for the country is Hayk’. The name in the Middle Ages was extended to Hayastan, by addition of the Iranian suffix -stan (land). The name has traditionally been derived from Hayk (Հայկ), the legendary patriarch of the Armenians and a great-great-grandson of Noah, who according to Moses of Chorene defeated the Babylonian king Bel in 2492 BC, and established his nation in the Ararat region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Pomegranates anyone??