Atlantis

[The Puzzler]

The known world in Plato's time doesn't constitute the entire globe.

And again I'll restate what I told Qoais in an earlier post:

cormac

It doesn't exist, but what is Plato talking about? That's where I am now...that's what I am most interested in, the actual story's meaning, not looking for a place ON the Earth...this is just like the Bible, mans downfall on Earth, you think that is a crazy notion? What do you have against me or anyone researching to find answers and so what if that means changing your mind as you go along to fit with new information, I really don't understand that viewpoint of yours, never have, that one cannot change their mind based on new information...

You say...the known world in Platos time doesn't constitute the entire globe, I know, that is what I just answered you with.....you don't get the part about the island?

Why can't you answer normally instead of resorting to repeating how you think I'm whatever for changing my mind on this? I gave you valid answers - we are the island, you have no response but to parrot on again:

Which is why, by and large, I tend to stay away from your Atlantis threads. You've admitted in the past that you have no singular belief. I submit to you that your belief in Atlantis changes more often the bed sheets in a Las Vegas brothel. In a few weeks, if not months time, you will be on to the next location for Atlantis. Again, looking for something that doesn't exist.

Stay away then, but don't post back at me with your opinion of me again, I am simply researching and if you don't get it fine, but if anyone here is sticking with the real message of the whole story ie: , the further one gets from what Plato said about it the more ridiculous the claim that anything else being discussed IS Atlantis....it is ME.

In seeing us as the island that is bigger than Libya and Asia and the Earth as Atlantis and Athens as the original form of Heaven before they became diluted...is probably more closer to the truth of the story that you will ever imagine.

What does it matter if last week I thought it was real or in Borneo, see, I never stop reading on this, if I kept to one original thought how could that achieve any progression...then again, forget I asked you that.

[The Puzzler]

I thought it was his sister. (half sister)

Oh crap, now you've changed your post while I was posting this!!

It was only a spelling error or link add anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nammu

In Sumerian mythology, Nammu (more properly Namma [1]) is the Sumerian creation goddess. If the Babylonian creation myth Enûma Elish is based on a Sumerian myth, which seems likely, Nammu is the Sumerian goddess of the primeval sea that gave birth to An (heaven) and Ki (earth) and the first gods. She was probably the first personification of the constellation which the Babylonians later called Tiamat and the Greeks called Cetus and represented the Apsu, the fresh water ocean which the Sumerians believed lay beneath the earth, the source of life-giving water and fertility in a country with almost no rainfall. She is attended by seven minor goddesses.

Nammu bore An a son, Enki. She and her Enki created mankind as assistants for the gods. She moulded clay collected and brought it to life, thus creating mankind.

Nammu...the true Creator.

Edited cause I stuffed up the editing

Edited January 1, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

No. It was Plato who wrote that Critias claimed Solon enquired about the names, Dropides allegedly having the original writings. Basically a case of "I said that you said that he said that she said that they wrote something down". Show me an extant text of Solon or Dropides that will confirm any of this as anything other than a story of Plato's. Hell, show me an extant text of Solon or Dropides, period. It can't be done because there are none.

cormac

OK, Solon then, either way, the point is....the original story did not the names of Greek Gods in it, they have been translated into the closest or ones that seemed to fit.

[cormac mac airt]

Though Sanchuniathon distinguishes Poseidon from his Elus/Cronus, this might be a splitting off of a particular aspect of Ēl in a euhemeristic account. Identification of an aspect of Ēl with Poseidon rather than with Cronus might have been felt to better fit with Hellenistic religious practice, if indeed this Phoenician Poseidon really is Ēl who dwells at the source of the two deeps in Ugaritic texts.

The questionable existance of Sanchuniathon aside, looking further into this character would negate the above as dealing with "aspects" of a god:

The supposed Sanchuniathon claimed to have based his work on "collections of secret writings of the Ammouneis[4] discovered in the shrines", sacred lore deciphered from mystic inscriptions on the pillars which stood in the Phoenician temples, lore which exposed the truth—later covered up by invented allegories and myths—that the gods were originally human beings who came to be worshipped after their deaths and that the Phoenicians had taken what were originally names of their kings and applied them to elements of the cosmos (compare euhemerism) as well as also worshipping forces of nature and the sun, moon, and stars. Eusebius' intent in mentioning Sanchuniathon is to discredit pagan religion based on such foundations.

So much for reinterpreting myth as fact, IMO.

cormac

[Brakzar Break]

The hell?

[The Puzzler]

The questionable existance of Sanchuniathon aside, looking further into this character would negate the above as dealing with "aspects" of a god:

So much for reinterpreting myth as fact, IMO.

cormac

Whose interpreting myth as fact? I don't even understand your post really cormac.

I totally agree with this part:

that the gods were originally human beings who came to be worshipped after their deaths and that the Phoenicians had taken what were originally names of their kings and applied them to elements of the cosmos (compare euhemerism) as well as also worshipping forces of nature and the sun, moon, and stars.

Edited to add:

I think the biggest mistake made is trying to align the Atlantis story with Greek Gods as known.

Edited January 1, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

From El - Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

In regard to your above post cormac: Cronus then, whom the Phoenicians call Elus, who was king of the country and subsequently, after his decease, was deified as the star Saturn.

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull god").

[The Puzzler]

The questionable existance of Sanchuniathon aside, looking further into this character would negate the above as dealing with "aspects" of a god:

So much for reinterpreting myth as fact, IMO.

cormac

This part from the Wiki pretty much is what I reckon of Sanchuniathon..

Or Philo may have translated genuine Phoenician works ascribed to an ancient writer Sanchuniathon, but in fact written in more recent times.

Not all readers have taken such a critical view. Squier Payne remarked in a preface to Richard Cumberland's Sanchoniatho's Phoenician History (1720)

"The Humour which prevail'd with several learned Men to reject Sanchuniatho as a counterfeit because they knew not what to make of him, his Lordship always blam'd. Philo Byblius, Porphyry and Eusebius, who were better able to judge than any Moderns, never call in question his being genuine."

However that may be,[6] much of what has been preserved in this writing, despite the euhemeristic interpretation given it, turned out to be supported by the Ugaritic mythological texts excavated at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) in Syria since 1929; Otto Eissfeldt demonstrated in 1952[7] that it does incorporate genuine Semitic elements that can now be related to the Ugaritic texts, some of which as reflected in our reflections of Sanchuniathon, remained unchanged since the second millennium BC. The modern consensus is that Philo's treatment of Sanchuniathan offered a Hellenistic view of Phoenician materials.[8]

In what follows, it is sometimes difficult to tell whether Eusebius is citing Philo's translation of Sanchuniathon or speaking in his own voice. Another difficulty is the use of Greek proper names instead of Phoenician ones and the possible corruption of some of the Phoenician names that do appear.

The Ugaritic Texts deserve some more attention in all this...

[cormac mac airt]

It doesn't exist, but what is Plato talking about?

And how many times, so far, have you claimed that it did exist? And YOU knew where?

What do you have against me or anyone researching to find answers and so what if that means changing your mind as you go along to fit with new information, I really don't understand that viewpoint of yours, never have, that one cannot change their mind based on new information...

I don’t have anything against anyone searching for answers or changing their mind to go along with new information. And personally, I don’t have anything against you, although I think you’re caught in a trap of your own making. However, from my perspective, you flit about from one item to another reinterpreting what they mean in order to find something that doesn’t exist. That’s not changing your mind, that’s searching for a fantasy.

Plato’s story was, at best, an expanded take on the phrase, “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”. Atlantis was allegedly the most advanced (for its time) civilization in the known world, having conquered much of the same. However, it learned the hard way that even the mighty can fall. Somewhat comparable to the David and Goliath story. And Plato, through his story, was telling the Greeks of his time that if they didn’t learn from this example (supposedly their own ancient history) the same could happen to them as well.

In seeing us as the island that is bigger than Libya and Asia and the Earth as Atlantis and Athens as the original form of Heaven before they became diluted...is probably more closer to the truth of the story that you will ever imagine.

But Plato isn’t talking about us. He’s talking TO THE GREEKS, ABOUT THE GREEKS and the lessons from their own alleged history they should learn.

Why can't you answer normally instead of resorting to repeating how you think I'm whatever for changing my mind on this?

I actually don’t ever see you reaching a conclusion on this until you find something comforting to your understanding of Plato, even if it's wrong.

I gave you valid answers - we are the island..

That’s not a valid answer, that’s just your interpretation of what Plato meant. So now you’re his shrink?

OK, Solon then, either way, the point is....the original story did not the names of Greek Gods in it, they have been translated into the closest or ones that seemed to fit.

And the evidence for this “original story” is where, because it’s not in Egypt?

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Whose interpreting myth as fact? I don't even understand your post really cormac.

How many times now have you tried equating a god or gods (and assorted other mythic persons) from one pantheon with those of another? Any making them relevant to the whole Atlantis story? Even the alleged Sanchuniathon suggests that they were deified humans. No godly aspect.

I think the biggest mistake made is trying to align the Atlantis story with Greek Gods as known.

No, the biggest mistake IMO is trying to align the Atlantis story with reality, as anything other than a lesson for the Greeks to learn.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

And how many times, so far, have you claimed that it did exist? And YOU knew where?

I don’t have anything against anyone searching for answers or changing their mind to go along with new information. And personally, I don’t have anything against you, although I think you’re caught in a trap of your own making. However, from my perspective, you flit about from one item to another reinterpreting what they mean in order to find something that doesn’t exist. That’s not changing your mind, that’s searching for a fantasy.

Plato’s story was, at best, an expanded take on the phrase, “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”. Atlantis was allegedly the most advanced (for its time) civilization in the known world, having conquered much of the same. However, it learned the hard way that even the mighty can fall. Somewhat comparable to the David and Goliath story. And Plato, through his story, was telling the Greeks of his time that if they didn’t learn from this example (supposedly their own ancient history) the same could happen to them as well.

But Plato isn’t talking about us. He’s talking TO THE GREEKS, ABOUT THE GREEKS and the lessons from their own alleged history they should learn.

I actually don’t ever see you reaching a conclusion on this until you find something comforting to your understanding of Plato, even if it's wrong.

That’s not a valid answer, that’s just your interpretation of what Plato meant. So now you’re his shrink?

And the evidence for this “original story” is where, because it’s not in Egypt?

cormac

Yes, a valid answer of my interpretation...no I am not his shrink now, you are like talking to a brick wall.

I agree with all this you said:

Plato’s story was, at best, an expanded take on the phrase, “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”. Atlantis was allegedly the most advanced (for its time) civilization in the known world, having conquered much of the same. However, it learned the hard way that even the mighty can fall. Somewhat comparable to the David and Goliath story. And Plato, through his story, was telling the Greeks of his time that if they didn’t learn from this example (supposedly their own ancient history) the same could happen to them as well.

But I think there is way more to it, it is bigger than that...what did the mighty do to fall? and how does it all fit into the narrative of Timaeus himself and the creation of the Universe and ourselves? That is what I seek.

Plato is the greatest philosopher of all time for a reason, not just for giving the local Athenians a wake up call.

[cormac mac airt]

However that may be,[6] much of what has been preserved in this writing, despite the euhemeristic interpretation given it, turned out to be supported by the Ugaritic mythological texts excavated at Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) in Syria since 1929; Otto Eissfeldt demonstrated in 1952[7] that it does incorporate genuine Semitic elements that can now be related to the Ugaritic texts, some of which as reflected in our reflections of Sanchuniathon, remained unchanged since the second millennium BC. The modern consensus is that Philo's treatment of Sanchuniathan offered a Hellenistic view of Phoenician materials.[8]

I have to wonder how this is even relevant as Ugaritic suggests Mesopotamian, which has absolutely nothing to do with Egypt, Greece or Atlantis?

Not all readers have taken such a critical view. Squier Payne remarked in a preface to Richard Cumberland's Sanchoniatho's Phoenician History (1720)

"The Humour which prevail'd with several learned Men to reject Sanchuniatho as a counterfeit because they knew not what to make of him, his Lordship always blam'd. Philo Byblius, Porphyry and Eusebius, who were better able to judge than any Moderns, never call in question his being genuine."

So an 18th century gentleman (Squier Payne) says neither Philo Byblius, Porphyry nor Eusebius question the writings of Sanchuniathon, so they must be true? Not exactly sound evidence.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

But I think there is way more to it, it is bigger than that...what did the mighty do to fall?

Has it ever occured to you that you may be WANTING it to mean more/be bigger than it is? Because Plato only wrote what's there. No more, no less.

As to the mighty, Plato's Atlantis, they tried taking on more than was theirs to have. In this case Athens. In a word: GREED!

...and how does it all fit into the narrative of Timaeus himself and the creation of the Universe and ourselves?

Who says it does and why would it have to?

cormac

[The Puzzler]

How many times now have you tried equating a god or gods (and assorted other mythic persons) from one pantheon with those of another? Any making them relevant to the whole Atlantis story? Even the alleged Sanchuniathon suggests that they were deified humans. No godly aspect.

No, the biggest mistake IMO is trying to align the Atlantis story with reality, as anything other than a lesson for the Greeks to learn.

cormac

Oh right..yes but see, they do align and are just deified kings, see so this could be a true story (not 9000 years ago) but we can't find it...

Example...if the story is about Poseidon and his children Atlas and Gedeirus etc, I think by looking around the other myths to find a real person this could be that is deified...OK, so they say Kronus becomes Saturn then this planet is seen as Saturn later to the Romans but as Ninurta to the most ancient Sumerians..

In the astral-theological system Ninurta was associated with the planet Saturn, or perhaps as offspring or an aspect of Saturn. In his capacity as a farmer-god, there are similarities between Ninurta and the Greek harvest-god Kronos, whom the Romans in turn identified with their fertility-god Saturn.

So, Ninurta the farmer who became deified as Saturn, which in turn became Cronus could have been a real person and involved in an event with the ancient people who lived in Athens very early and are the ancestors of the Athenians in Plato's time. (IF I was talking about Cronus instead of Poseidon). After he was deified it seems the planet or whichever heavenly body it was got HIS attributes...constellations are often been 'people or animals of renown' that have been given a place in Heaven and then has a story attached to it..

THAT is just an example.

I do think by looking for a story that is like Plato's being able to be interpreted into the lesson he wants to give and then inserted into his narrative is likely, given Greek God names hiding the real story unless we figure out who they really are..

Herodotus states that the Persians and Phoenicians had slightly different accounts to what happened when Helen left Argos but his own knowledge of his history of Greek war started with the 1st Persian invasion...his knowledge of history did not go as far back as that the Persians and Phoenicians told him in the way of seemingly facts from when Helen was taken...he only knew this story from Greek myth that Helen had been taken by Paris. But there is 2 more versions of it by non Greeks, which seems to me to say that the Phoenicians had this story too in there memories...

The Pharoahs became Gods, they were Gods but the story of the Pharoahs life and the things he did become a tale of the God he becomes. Many say Heracles was a real man that became deified. I hardly think Heracles did the 10 Labours as it is written but he may have really existed.

So, even though I don't think the myths are 'true stories' as such, they could contain true history distorted so much to be unrecognisable.

[The Puzzler]

Has it ever occured to you that you may be WANTING it to mean more/be bigger than it is? Because Plato only wrote what's there. No more, no less.

As to the mighty, Plato's Atlantis, they tried taking on more than was theirs to have. In this case Athens. In a word: GREED!

Who says it does and why would it have to?

cormac

Greed and losing thier godliness and virtues.

Plato wrote what's there alright and this is what he wrote as I stated in my first here this arvo:

In Timaeus it has this sentence as told by the character Timaeus himself:

Wherefore he made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures;

In Critias we have this, a description of Poseidon creating Atlantis:

which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre,

I still say this is bigger and it's not about me wanting it bigger, Plato was telling a story that had his heart and beliefs tied up in it, the belief of one true creator god, the story of the Universe and the make up of our human parts and how each interacts with each other, how when creating the Earth he also creates Atlantis the same way. Gotta do dinner now.

[cormac mac airt]

Oh right..yes but see, they do align and are just deified kings, see so this could be a true story (not 9000 years ago) but we can't find it...

It could also be wishful thinking because you want it to be more than a morality tale.

Example...if the story is about Poseidon and his children Atlas and Gedeirus etc, I think by looking around the other myths to find a real person this could be that is deified...OK, so they say Kronus becomes Saturn then this planet is seen as Saturn later to the Romans but as Ninurta to the most ancient Sumerians..

Except that, according to Platos Critias, the names were originally translated from Atlantean (presumably) into Egyptian, then into Greek. So any translated Greek names would be of someone whom the Greeks never knew about to begin with, if anything about Platos story is to be believed. Mighty convenient. And youre looking for someone to fit that bill?

I do think by looking for a story that is like Plato's being able to be interpreted into the lesson he wants to give and then inserted into his narrative is likely, given Greek God names hiding the real story unless we figure out who they really are..

Seems to me like cherry-picking what you want to fit, to show its true. Why would he have to use Greek god names to hide the real story if they werent even the original names, nor Greek, to begin with? They werent even the second names, according to Platos Critias.

cormac

Edited January 1, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[cormac mac airt]

In Timaeus it has this sentence as told by the character Timaeus himself:

Wherefore he made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures;

In Critias we have this, a description of Poseidon creating Atlantis:

which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre,

Your implication here would be that the Creator, whom Plato does not name specifically, and Poseidon are one and the same. Thereby meaning that Poseidon created the world and everything in it. That runs contrary to Greek mythology. And you don't see a problem with this? So now you're re-interpreting Greek mythology to make a connection?

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Your implication here would be that the Creator, whom Plato does not name specifically, and Poseidon are one and the same. Thereby meaning that Poseidon created the world and everything in it. That runs contrary to Greek mythology. And you don't see a problem with this? So now you're re-interpreting Greek mythology to make a connection?

cormac

I have no problem with it at all...Greek mythology doesn't even align with itself - Plato has not aligned his story to Greek myth otherwise he would not have Atlas as Poseidons son would he? By aligning it with Greek myth it won't be found at all, in any form.

We are told it has been told to Solon with Egyptian names...meaning when Solon has heard the story he heard the tale with a God/Gods the Egyptians knew, which wasn't Greek Gods in 650BC...so then he enquired to the equal Gods known in Greece and comes up with Poseidon and Atlas among others...

The original story has been told to him with no Greek God mentioned, if Plato is smart enough to recognise or translate them back to Egyptian known Gods equal to the Gods they would have spoken about he would have found which Gods were the real ones spoken of...

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the Goddess Asherah as attested in the tablets of Ugarit.[2]

The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of Gods or the Father of all Gods, in the ruins of the Royal Library of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos).

So, there is some Greek Gods equated with this line of Canaanite Gods...it says Yam equal to Poseidon is a son of El.

El equates to Cronus...

So, we have Poseidon a son of Cronus...as it happens in Greek myth. Similar attributes.

Then I'll throw this in:

I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name Yahweh.

This affirms the identity of Yahweh with either Ēl in his aspect Shaddāi or with a god called Shaddāi. Also affirmed is that the name Yahweh is a more recent revelation. One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods and not normally identified with Ēl.

El Shaddai is equal to God Most High or El Elyon... the creator of the Universe before his name changed to Yahweh The LORD on his meeting with Moses in The Exodus. King James Revised Bible I have here says on Exodus 4 page, when the words LORD seem to exclusively take the place of the word God it says The word LORD when spelled in capital letters stands for the divine name YHWH, why put that explanation on that page, because it is noticeable that if you look hard you can see the name of God changes to LORD, and LORD is Yahweh...

So God or the LORD is actually God Most High or El Elyon and in his form as LORD he is El, not quite so high as his previous incarnation God Most High El Elyon.

Remember:

In the euhemeristic account of Sanchuniathon Ēl (rendered Elus or called by his standard Greek counterpart Cronus) is not the creator god or first god. Ēl is rather the son of Sky and Earth. Sky and Earth are themselves children of ‘Elyôn 'Most High'.

El (Yahweh) is not actually the creator God or God Most High, he is a grandson of God....the Latter Day Saints distinguish the 2 with Yahweh equating with Jesus.

and this again:

A bilingual inscription from Palmyra (KAI. 11, p. 43) dated to the first century equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth with the Greek god Poseidon. Going back to the eighth century BCE the bilingual inscription at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains equates Ēl-Creator-of-the-Earth to Luwian hieroglyphs read as da-a-ś, this being the Luwian form of the name of the Babylonian water god Ea, lord of the abyss of water under the earth.

Confusion is God has morphed into Yahweh just as El Elyon Creator God has morphed into El Creator of the Earth (we have to informed of this by Sanchuniation) so it appears the Creator God and the Creators of Earth can be the same.

Sorry but just to show what I mean:

Ēl (rendered Elus or called by his standard Greek counterpart Cronus) is not the creator god or first god. Ēl is rather the son of Sky and Earth. Sky and Earth are themselves children of ‘Elyôn 'Most High'. Ēl is brother to the god Bethel, to Dagon, and to an unknown god equated with the Greek Atlas.

If El Creator of the Earth (El)can be seen as Poseidon, he has a brother of an unknown God equated with Atlas. Greek myth won't tell you this.

This is how I see it coming together. So the story could be based in Canaan or elsewhere where the original Gods as told to Solon by the priest represent a story they have known of an incident with the ancient people of Athens. Myth has Phoenicians in Greece at a very early date. Like I said it was known by the Phoenicians the incident of Helen in real terms not the mythical terms Herodotus knew.

Edited to add the italics.

Edited January 1, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Ikki]

Languages that come into contact with each other enough for words to be traded back and forth do not merely exchange one single word between them, nor is that trade merely one way.

Nor do they, for that matter, exchange morphemes rather than entire words -- atl is not a whole word, any more than the -s that ends sisters or -cess- in the words, process, recess or cessation. Nor (as a general rule) do languages trade back and forth core vocabulary words.

The only sort of person who would try to pawn off that sort of lexical borrowing is either a) completely ignorant of the linguistic data he's trying to pawn off and not fit to knowledgeably trade on it or deliberately trying to deceive his audience into buying whatever huey he's attempting to sell. There are no other options.

--Jaylemurph

Actually, 'atl' is a whole word in Nahuatl. Just sayin'

Happy New Yars all!

[cormac mac airt]

Greek mythology doesn't even align with itself - Plato has not aligned his story to Greek myth otherwise he would not have Atlas as Poseidons son would he?

Yet Greek myth has an Atlas, the Titan, as well as Plato’s Atlas, King of Atlantis and son of Poseidon. So yes, Plato HAS aligned his story with Greek myth, otherwise he wouldn’t have mentioned Atlas or Poseidon to begin with.

We are told it has been told to Solon with Egyptian names...meaning when Solon has heard the story he heard the tale with a God/Gods the Egyptians knew, which wasn't Greek Gods in 650BC...so then he enquired to the equal Gods known in Greece and comes up with Poseidon and Atlas among others...

I understand full well what Solon was supposedly told, but a story about Egyptian named gods has no bearing on the Greek pantheon. (Solon, by the way, having absolutely nothing to say about it himself. And again, there is no evidence whatsoever that such a story ever resided in Egypt.) The Egyptian pantheon being over 1000+ years old by the time of the Mycenaean Greeks, not to mention the Classical Greek Period. And neither one has any bearing on some unknown god from a civilization that allegedly resides outside the Pillars of Hercules.

The original story has been told to him with no Greek God mentioned, if Plato is smart enough to recognise or translate them back to Egyptian known Gods equal to the Gods they would have spoken about he would have found which Gods were the real ones spoken of...

No he wouldn’t as they weren’t Egyptian gods to start with, but Atlantian, at least according to Plato. And Plato had no knowledge of who the Atlantian gods were.

El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos).

“Has similar attributes” does not mean that Hadad, Yam and Mot ARE Zeus, Poseidon and Hades. That’s rather like saying that you and Qoais are both females, so YOU MUST BE the same person.

El (Yahweh) is not actually the creator God or God Most High, he is a grandson of God....the Latter Day Saints distinguish the 2 with Yahweh equating with Jesus.

Even the Tanakh disagrees with that.

The theological position of the Tanakh is that the names Ēl, ’Ĕlōhîm when used in the singular to mean the supreme and active 'God' refers to the same being as does Yahweh. All three refer to the one supreme god who is also the God of Israel, beside whom other supposed gods are either non-existent or insignificant.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

“Has similar attributes” does not mean that Hadad, Yam and Mot ARE Zeus, Poseidon and Hades. That’s rather like saying that you and Qoais are both females, so YOU MUST BE the same person.

cormac

I never said they were, I was saying that these Gods can equate to these Gods. Greece has no real main Gods, all the Gods are just equals of other cultures Gods morphed into them, same as Rome, many of the Gods are just equals to Greek Gods or other Gods. I believe Saturn is pretty important.

Saturn is named after the Roman god Saturn (that became the namesake of Saturday), equated to the Greek Kronos (the Titan father of Zeus) the Babylonian Ninurta and to the Hindu Shani. Saturn's symbol represents the god's sickle (Unicode: ♄).

You think Poseidon is a Greek God? The Greeks did not invent Poseidon, maybe the Greek form of his name but his attributes in a Godlike form existed prior to any invention of the Greeks in their Pantheon.

Even the Tanakh disagrees with that.

You again have misconstued what I said....I said El Elyon, and El as Yahweh morphed into one God known as Yahweh to the Hebrews.... and later Jews by the time the Tanakh was actually written, but in ancient Canaanite religion El Elyon is different and is not El...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek

Genesis also calls Melchizedek "Priest of El Elyon", which appears elsewhere as a title for YHWH. But it has long been suspected that this is a late development,[21] and that Melchizedek was originally the priest of a god named Elyon, who appears in eighth-century Aramaic inscriptions paired with El in the common Levantine pantheon.[22] When these verses were taken over by Jewish redactor(s), for whom El was already identified with YHWH, El-Elyon became an epithet for the God of Israel.[23]

[The Puzzler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion

Cosmology

So far, none of the inscribed tablets found in the Canaanite city of Ugarit (destroyed ca. 1200 BCE) has revealed a cosmology. Any idea of one is often reconstructed from the much later Phoenician text by Philo of Byblos (c. 64–141 CE), after much Greek and Roman influence in the region.

According to the pantheon, known in Ugarit as 'ilhm (=Elohim) or the children of El (cf. the Biblical "sons of God"), supposedly obtained by Philo of Byblos from Sanchuniathon of Berythus (Beirut) the creator was known as Elion (Biblical El Elyon = God most High), who was the father of the divinities, and in the Greek sources he was married to Beruth (Beirut = the city). This marriage of the divinity with the city would seem to have Biblical parallels too with the stories of the link between Melkart and Tyre; Yahweh and Jerusalem; Chemosh and Moab; Tanit and Baal Hammon in Carthage. El Elyon is mentioned as 'God Most High' occurs in Genesis 14.18–19 as the God whose priest was Melchizedek king of Salem.

From the union of El Elyon and his consort were born Uranus and Ge, Greek names for the "Heaven" and the "Earth". This has parallels with the story of the Babylonian Anunaki (i.e. = "Heaven and Earth"; Shamayim and Erets).

In Canaanite mythology there were twin mountains Targhizizi and Tharumagi which hold the firmament up above the earth-circling ocean, thereby bounding the earth. W. F. Albright, for example, says that El Shaddai is a derivation of a Semitic stem that appears in the Akkadian shadû ("mountain") and shaddā`û or shaddû`a ("mountain-dweller"), one of the names of Amurru. Philo of Byblos states that Atlas was one of the Elohim, which would clearly fit into the story of El Shaddai as "God of the Mountain(s)." Harriet Lutzky has presented evidence that Shaddai was an attribute of a Semitic goddess, linking the epithet with Hebrew šad "breast" as "the one of the Breast". The idea of two mountains being associated here as the breasts of the Earth, fits into the Canaanite mythology quite well. The ideas of pairs of mountains seem to be quite common in Canaanite mythology (similar to Horeb and Sinai in the Bible).

Edited to shorten.

Edited January 1, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

El- Creator of the Earth can easily be aligned with Ea/Enki (as I showed by the insciption link) who is then aligned with Poseidon so Poseidon can be seen as a creator God and by the later date of El being thought of as THE creator God as in God Almighty,El = YHWH creator of the Heavens, one could then see Poseidon in this same role. Now if Atlas is one of the Elohim, a child of El it starts to take even more shape...

I am not changing any Greek mythology or turning it around to suit me, just aligning Gods of other religions to the Greek ones as already given to give a different story than is given by the Greek writers.

Plato could indeed be telling us a 'true story' when he states Atlas is a son of Poseidon, it's just the Greeks didn't know it. But you can find it in ancient Canaanite religion methinks.

Twin mountains...holding up the firmament above the waters, I wonder what would happen if those twin mountains collapsed? It's a rhetoric question.

[Qoais]

Puzzler? Can I ask a little question? (I'm trying not to ruffle any feathers so am speaking quietly!!) Don't mean to be rude or anything, but all that is really complicated and I'm wondering if Plato even knew most of what you've said. I mean he wasn't even born yet when Jesus walked the earth. I don't think that even if he had heard of some of this stuff, he would know it by rote and be able to make up a completely knew story on the fly for the goddess's birthday. I think when going impromptu like he did for the celebration, he would stick to things he knew close to hand. Other than like I've said before, he could have started his story with once upon a time, in a land far, far away.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Qoais

[Qoais]

Actually, 'atl' is a whole word in Nahuatl. Just sayin'

Happy New Yars all!

Are you serious? The one time I trust Jaylemurph to be knowledgeable and use his explanation, only to find it's wrong? There IS a word atl?