Atlantis

[The Puzzler]

Lastly, I must disagree with The Puzzler when she wrote that Atlantis was "an Egyptian story." That is not the case. The earliest existence for the story of Atlantis is Plato's Timaeus and Critias. In attributing it to an Egyptian priest, Plato was using a literary device common among Greek orators. Drawing on Egypt as the origin to something was, in the Greek mind, a means to lend weight and credibility to that origin. The Greeks had a tangible respect for Egypt because of its great antiquity, so Egypt was a handy literary tool for them. The bottom line is, in no extant text from any point in Egyptian history is there any mention of Atlantis or anything similar to it. Atlantis simply was not part of the Egyptian historical, oral, or literary tradition.

How do you know? That is simple assumption. You think he wrote the Egyptians told him to lend more weight to the story. That is an opinion you have, not facts. Anyway I have made it clearer than clear if it happened the way Plato said the word used by the Egyptian priest would not have been ATLANTIS, it was a longer form of Atlas and if they did not say Atlas (remember the translating from Egyptian) they sure as hell didn't say Atlantis!! By trying to combat this with it can't be true because their is no legend of Atlantis in Egypt is really ridiculous imo, said with utmost respect for you but can you not see how dumb that is?

[cormac mac airt]

By trying to combat this with it can't be true because their is no legend of Atlantis in Egypt is really ridiculous imo, said with utmost respect for you but can you not see how dumb that is?

Kmt_sesh actually said:

The bottom line is, in no extant text from any point in Egyptian history is there any mention of Atlantis or anything similar to it. Atlantis simply was not part of the Egyptian historical, oral, or literary tradition.

I’ve said, repeatedly:

And again, there is not a shred of evidence that the Egyptians ever had such a story, in any case.

A better question, considering the time in question (650 BC), would be why there is no evidence during the reigns of Necho I, Psamtik I or Necho II of anything that could even remotely be misconstrued as a story of Atlantis, BY ANY NAME.

Solon, by the way, having absolutely nothing to say about it himself. And again, there is no evidence whatsoever that such a story ever resided in Egypt.

And the evidence for this “original story” is where, because it’s not in Egypt?

So whether from kmt_sesh or myself, we've both told you the same thing. There is no evidence for a story of Atlantis, BY ANY NAME, whether Greek, Egyptian, "Atlantian", Mesopotamian or whatever. Do you have actual, verifiable evidence to the contrary? Because trying to pin us down to the sole usage of the word Atlantis is back-firing, IMO.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Kmt_sesh actually said:

The bottom line is, in no extant text from any point in Egyptian history is there any mention of Atlantis or anything similar to it. Atlantis simply was not part of the Egyptian historical, oral, or literary tradition.

I’ve said, repeatedly:

And again, there is not a shred of evidence that the Egyptians ever had such a story, in any case.

A better question, considering the time in question (650 BC), would be why there is no evidence during the reigns of Necho I, Psamtik I or Necho II of anything that could even remotely be misconstrued as a story of Atlantis, BY ANY NAME.

Solon, by the way, having absolutely nothing to say about it himself. And again, there is no evidence whatsoever that such a story ever resided in Egypt.

And the evidence for this “original story” is where, because it’s not in Egypt?

So whether from kmt_sesh or myself, we've both told you the same thing. There is no evidence for a story of Atlantis, BY ANY NAME, whether Greek, Egyptian, "Atlantian", Mesopotamian or whatever. Do you have actual, verifiable evidence to the contrary? Because trying to pin us down to the sole usage of the word Atlantis is back-firing, IMO.

cormac

Since you chose to answer my post to kmt which I was interested in HIS answer actually, not yours...he did say "there is no mention of Atlantis".

What word are you looking for then to dismiss it being found?

I'm not trying to pin anyone down, unlike what others constantly do to me here... kmt said he didn't believe it cause there was no mention of Atlantis (or anything similar to it)in Egypt, I asked him did he expect that there was?

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I'll add as a new post instead...

Maybe kmt can direct me to what is on the Sacred Registers in Sais prior to 600BC? Where do you have the information of what is on them so you know it is not on them?

Where are these Sacred Registers in Sais?

[The Puzzler]

The Temple of Neith does not exist anymore so I would think it pretty hard to be able to check the Sacred Registers there spoken of by Plato....??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

Proclus (412–485 AD) wrote that the adyton of the temple of Neith in Sais (of which nothing now remains) carried the following inscription:

“ I am the things that are, that will be, and that have been. No one has ever laid open the garment by which I am concealed. The fruit which I brought forth was the sun.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sais.htm

The reason for this is that in the Delta, monuments are most often in a much worse state of repair due to water damage. We may never know the splendors that might have been because the ancient building projects are often either completely gone, or only fragmentary bits and pieces remain.

This is the case with Sais. While it was an important center, not much remains and much of what we know comes from documentary evidenced found elsewhere as opposed to archaeological discoveries at Sais itself

cormac..........I was going to question kmt but since you seem to know everything about it anyway, what is and what isn't on these steeles in Egypt maybe you could answer my above questions or here it is again??

How do you know that it was not written inside the Temple Of Neith if it is not there anymore?? Do tell me.

Just for interest sakes:

Heracleion (Thonis)in Sais. http://www.underwaterdiscovery.org/Sitemap/Project/ProjectArticel.aspx?ProjectName=CanopicRegion&Layout=B&XmlDocument=0005.xml

From that article now been shown that the city of Thonis was Heracleion....

Here is a new steele recently been uncovered and translates, just for interest sakes, scroll down to about 3/4 page...

http://kangofu.livejournal.com/3798.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracleion

Heracleion was an ancient Egyptian city near modern day Alexandria. It was known as early as the 12th century BC but its importance grew during the waning days of the pharaohs, the late period. Herakleion was Egypt's main port in the time of the pharaohs. It was famous because it was believed that Helen of Troy and Hercules have visited the city, and the city even gained its name from Hercules. There was also a large temple dedicated to the Greek hero at the city center. Pharaoh Nectanebo I made many additions to the temple in the 4th century BC. In the 6th or 7th century AD it sunk, probably due to major earthquakes and floods. The ruins submerged in the sea were finally located and rediscovered by the French underwater archaeologist Franck Goddio in 2000.

[The Puzzler]

Anouke, a goddess from Asia Minor was worshiped by immigrants to ancient Egypt. This war goddess was shown wearing a curved and feathered crown and carrying a spear, or bow and arrows. Within Egypt, she was later assimilated and identified as Neith, who by that time had developed her aspects as a war goddess.

The Greek historian, Herodotus (c. 484-425 BC), noted that the Egyptian citizens of Sais in Egypt worshipped Neith and that they identified her with Athena. The Timaeus, a Socratic dialogue written by Plato, mirrors that identification with Athena.

Ankt (sometimes spelt Anouke) was a goddess of war worshipped by certain groups in ancient Egypt. It is believed that Anouke was a goddess from Asia Minor, worshiped by immigrants to ancient Egypt. This war goddess was shown usually as wearing a curved and feathered crown and carrying a spear, or bow and arrows. Within Egypt, she was later assimilated into their mythology, and identified as Neith, who by that time had developed aspects of a war goddess.

So, Athena was Nouke as was Neith FROM Asia Minor...

Bought to Egypt by immigrants from Asia Minor...funny that....so the people who worshipped Neith who had been Nouke were from Asia Minor, making both Neith AND ATHENA an Asia-Minor Goddess.... that is interesting really...possibly the original people of Asia Minor that went to Egypt with the tradition of Anouke who settled in Sais were the same people who also immigrated to Greece and settled in Athens?

That then fits Plato's story of them being long lost relations with the Greek strand that got to Athens before the ones who got to Sais...

He replied:-In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that they are in some way related to them.

Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old. As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action; the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers themselves. If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time. In the first place, there is the caste of priests, which is separated from all the others; next, there are the artificers, who ply their several crafts by themselves and do not intermix; and also there is the class of shepherds and of hunters, as well as that of husbandmen; and you will observe, too, that the warriors in Egypt are distinct from all the other classes, and are commanded by the law to devote themselves solely to military pursuits; moreover, the weapons which they carry are shields and spears, a style of equipment which the goddess taught of Asiatics first to us, as in your part of the world first to you. Then as to wisdom, do you observe how our law from the very first made a study of the whole order of things, extending even to prophecy and medicine which gives health, out of these divine elements deriving what was needful for human life, and adding every sort of knowledge which was akin to them. All this order and arrangement the goddess first imparted to you when establishing your city; and she chose the spot of earth in which you were born, because she saw that the happy temperament of the seasons in that land would produce the wisest of men. Wherefore the goddess, who was a lover both of war and of wisdom, selected and first of all settled that spot which was the most likely to produce men likest herself. And there you dwelt, having such laws as these and still better ones, and excelled all mankind in all virtue, as became the children and disciples of the gods.

Also telling us this Goddess shown to her by the Asiatics showed the Egyptians and ancient Athenians the shield and spear, seems to show even Plato knew she was from Asia-Minor...she knew the shield and spear from the Asiatics and was also devoted to war and wisdom.

So, where oh where in Asia Minor could Nouke have come from? I will check it out.

Edited to add italics.

Edited again to add my checking out....

as Anouke, she was shown as carrying a bow and arrows.

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Ankt

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Qoais]

When questioned, one of my detractors said:

Quote from: Qoais on December 31, 2009, 10:02:56 am

Quote from: Daedalus on December 31, 2009, 01:53:14 am

Quote

But first, please copy and paste where Plato says the info is written on pillars.

He didn't have to say it, the Roman historian Crantor mentions that there were pillars in Sais, at the Temple of Neith, and that the Atlantis story was written on them. This was verified in Proclus Commentary on Timaeus.

Can you supply a link to this verification please?

The book isn't online, but the passage in the book reads like this:

"With full respect for the Atlantis' tale, some people say it is a true story: that is the opinion of Crantor, the Plato's first commentator, who upholds he was mocked by his contemporaneus because he was not the inventor of the Republic but just always limited himself copying what Egyptians already wrote. Crantor even says it was said by Egyptian priests, who gave confirmation that the details, like Plato told, have been cut out in coloumns still existing."

Puzzler, if you follow that trail and it turns out both the Egyptians and Greeks came from Asia Minor and those people came from S. America, I think I'd die of heart failure!! Jim Allen's theory has got you going hasn't it?

[SlimJim22]

Thanks for the last post that was very informative. I have a couple of points but if they've been covered already just ignore them.

1) Plato got his story from Solon in Egypt so the origin of the story in that respect is seemngly the land of Khem. This obviously makes sense since the egyptian culture preceede that of the greeks. The link with Sais is extremely important I feel. It means salt and has something to do with alchemy and the red sea.

2) Was Atlantis known as Atlantiha? It does sound a little native american or south american, Atlantis being the greek version.

3)Problems in dating. There is confusion over the time Plato eluds to. He could have meant the 10th century bce or the 10th millenium bce. There were also large scale floods of around 3,500bce. Couldn't all three be correct. The earliest being the first destruction and migration east and west. The original culture thus becoming more depleted and desperate to find a new land.

4) Is it relevant that Mt Atlas is in North Africa? What date did the desertification of the Sahara begin? Could it have beeb what Plato was eluding to? Also, is there reliable dating for the mediterranean sea, could it have housed whata we know as Atlantis? It is between the pillars and Malta has some of the oldest temples in the region and is linked with giants and serpents.

5)The Algonkquin Indians speak of a story very similar to Atlantis. That they have preserved their myths since god knows when shows the value of oral tradition. America was know as Amorika in pre-history and still is by many of its indiginous people.

6)The whole story could alternatively simply be an allegorical tale meant for various meanings about greed and cataclysm. There is a hypothesis somewhere that Hercules and his twelve trials represent the zodiac and the Herakles we associate with him was a great inventor who made compasses, spy glass (telescope) and others. I will try and find it another time.

7)Had the Library at Alexandria not been destroyed then no doubt there would be an abundance of evidence to sift through. As it is we've got what we've got but Atlantis has never been far from the peoples consciousness and peaks in its interests has often preceded great change.

It is the enigma of all enigmas. Our ancient ancestors were not as primitive as we would be led to believe. Theirs was different but a way of life to be highly respected. Just look at the ancient wonders of the world. Clever stuff and maybe they were copying what was known of Atlantis or previous cultures.

[Qoais]

Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side

Edited January 2, 2010 by Qoais

[The Puzzler]

When questioned, one of my detractors said:

Quote from: Qoais on December 31, 2009, 10:02:56 am

Quote from: Daedalus on December 31, 2009, 01:53:14 am

Quote

But first, please copy and paste where Plato says the info is written on pillars.

He didn't have to say it, the Roman historian Crantor mentions that there were pillars in Sais, at the Temple of Neith, and that the Atlantis story was written on them. This was verified in Proclus Commentary on Timaeus.

Can you supply a link to this verification please?

The book isn't online, but the passage in the book reads like this:

"With full respect for the Atlantis' tale, some people say it is a true story: that is the opinion of Crantor, the Plato's first commentator, who upholds he was mocked by his contemporaneus because he was not the inventor of the Republic but just always limited himself copying what Egyptians already wrote. Crantor even says it was said by Egyptian priests, who gave confirmation that the details, like Plato told, have been cut out in coloumns still existing."

Puzzler, if you follow that trail and it turns out both the Egyptians and Greeks came from Asia Minor and those people came from S. America, I think I'd die of heart failure!! Jim Allen's theory has got you going hasn't it?

Crantor, that's right, I was thinking it was Plutarch! Thanks.

It is said the Athenians originally came from Sinope somewhere...

Not the Egyptians Q, the people of Sais who worshipped Neith I would limit it to and the ancient Athenians...and if you read here:

You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours,

He is speaking about the city of Sais compared to Athens, not Egypt as a whole.

It's not hard to imagine people of Asia Minor reaching Greece before Egypt.

So it seems the people who immigrated from Asia Minor and became people of Sais of Neith would have had history of the original area and Goddess, seen from her attributes..war and wisdom..bow and arrow in her guise as Anouke, spear and shield as Neith...this could be where the original info (story) had been from, somewhere in Asia Minor that these people of Sais immigrated from along with the people who became Athenians...probably how the priests know the history of the Athenians..because they are the same ilk from somewhere in Asia Minor...Sinope maybe, south of the Black Sea...but then this is all mixed up..Serapis again...you know I have a thing for him..

The earliest mention of a Serapis is in the disputed death scene of Alexander (323 BC).[3] Here, Serapis has a temple at Babylon, and is of such importance that he alone is named as being consulted on behalf of the dying king. His presence in Babylon would radically alter perceptions of the mythologies of this era, though fortunately it has been discovered that the unconnected Babylonian god Ea (Enki) was titled Serapsi, meaning king of the deep, and it is possibly this Serapsi which is referred to in the diaries. The significance of this Serapsi in the Hellenic psyche, due to its involvement in Alexander's death, may have also contributed to the choice of Osiris-Apis as the chief Ptolemaic god.

According to Plutarch, Ptolemy stole the cult statue from Sinope, having been instructed in a dream by the unknown god, to bring the statue to Alexandria, where the statue was pronounced to be Serapis by two religious experts. One of the experts was of the Eumolpidae, the ancient family from whose members the hierophant of the Eleusinian Mysteries had been chosen since before history, and the other was the scholarly Egyptian priest Manetho, which gave weight to the judgement both for the Egyptians and the Greeks.

Plutarch may not however be correct, as some Egyptologists allege that the Sinope in the tale is really the hill of Sinopeion, a name given to the site of the already existing Serapeum at Memphis. Also, according to Tacitus, Serapis (i.e. Apis explicitly identified as Osiris in full) had been the god of the village of Rhakotis, before it suddenly expanded into the great capital of Alexandria.

The statue suitably depicted a figure resembling Hades or Pluto, both being kings of the Greek underworld, and was shown enthroned with the modius, a basket/grain-measure, on his head, since it was a Greek symbol for the land of the dead. He also held a sceptre in his hand indicating his rulership, with Cerberus, gatekeeper of the underworld, resting at his feet, and it also had what appeared to be a serpent at its base, fitting the Egyptian symbol of rulership, the uraeus.

Firstly who is saying Plutarch didn't mean Sinope in Egypt, I hardly see Ptolemy in Egypt shooting up to the Black Sea to get this statue...but it could be right, I would rather it was actually...and how about the mention of Serapis being associated with Ea/Enki, just like Sanchuniation said so....El Creator of the Earth same as daas in Luwian meaning Ea/Enki and the link this had to him being associated with Poseidon.

Is Serapis really Serapsi, "radically alter perceptions about mythology of this era" I'm sure it would...

I really don't think ancient people of Asia Minor came from South America but I do entertain the possibility that some kind of Phoenician sailors did land on the shores of South America. For whatever reason I have never seen South America as Atlantis, yet...

Edited to correct text edit

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[jaylemurph]

5)The Algonkquin Indians speak of a story very similar to Atlantis. That they have preserved their myths since god knows when shows the value of oral tradition. America was know as Amorika in pre-history and still is by many of its indiginous people.

The term "Algonquin" -- or however you want to pretty it up -- is not a sociological or ethnological term. It's purely a linguistic term, describing only languages. There is no single aspect of culture that every single Algonquin-speaking people engage in alike. Nor does use of the same family of languages imply any sort of substantial shared genetics, history or culture.

And -- some amusingly unlikely and patchwork story of a 15th Century British entrepreneur aside -- we know the exact historical origin of the term "America". I defy you to show any actual instance of a pre-Columbian use of the term "Amorika" by any native american group -- you'll understand, of course, if I look askance at any post-Columbian use of the term.

--Jaylemurph

[SlimJim22]

I really don't think ancient people of Asia Minor came from South America but I do entertain the possibility that some kind of Phoenician sailors did land on the shores of South America. For whatever reason I have never seen South America as Atlantis, yet...

As Atlanteans were so keen on precious metals I kinda assumed they would need to be sailing to any land they new of to mine for ore. This what the Phoenicians did so maybe they are descended from common ancestors. There is evidence of pre-historic mining on both coats of America and all of Europe.

[Qoais]

But it is a nearby site called Pampa Aullagas which corresponds most closely to the location Plato gave for the missing city of Atlantis, being in the centre lengthways of the plain yet 50 stades (5 miles) from the edge of the sea (Lake Poopo).

[Qoais]

In the wet season, Pampa Aullagas becomes an island.

"The Legend of the Desaguadero" tells of a city on the edge of a lake, punished by the gods and submerged by the sea, in exactly the same manner as Plato's Atlantis. So there can be no doubt that the story of Atlantis had it's origins in in a Bolivian legend.

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/theatlantistrail.htm

Edited January 2, 2010 by Qoais

[SlimJim22]

The term "Algonquin" -- or however you want to pretty it up -- is not a sociological or ethnological term. It's purely a linguistic term, describing only languages. There is no single aspect of culture that every single Algonquin-speaking people engage in alike. Nor does use of the same family of languages imply any sort of substantial shared genetics, history or culture.

And -- some amusingly unlikely and patchwork story of a 15th Century British entrepreneur aside -- we know the exact historical origin of the term "America". I defy you to show any actual instance of a pre-Columbian use of the term "Amorika" by any native american group -- you'll understand, of course, if I look askance at any post-Columbian use of the term.

--Jaylemurph

Ha ha. I forgot that no one set foot on American soil before good old Christopher Columbus. Never mind maybe something else will come up eh?

I was referring to the language yes. Not one people but many descended from the one that probably crossed the bering strait during some ice age or other or fled Atlantis or elswhere at some point. Pre history is vast and we don't have much of a clue in the context that we find ourselves in. To think we can say with precision what happenned in the distant past. To do so would be arrogant and a little ignorant. It will all come out in the wash I suppose.

[The Puzzler]

Thanks for the last post that was very informative. I have a couple of points but if they've been covered already just ignore them.

1) Plato got his story from Solon in Egypt so the origin of the story in that respect is seemingly the land of Khem. This obviously makes sense since the egyptian culture preceede that of the greeks. The link with Sais is extremely important I feel. It means salt and has something to do with alchemy and the red sea.

The story comes from Sais, like you said Sais is extremely important. See my post before this one.

3)Problems in dating. There is confusion over the time Plato eluds to. He could have meant the 10th century bce or the 10th millenium bce. There were also large scale floods of around 3,500bce. Couldn't all three be correct. The earliest being the first destruction and migration east and west. The original culture thus becoming more depleted and desperate to find a new land.

Recalling that even Manetho gives the 1st 10 Kings of Egypt a time frame back thousands of years around 9000BC I don't think it would be that unusual for him to be using a time frame given to him by Egyptians. That or he is using lunar months as a year, 9000 months would take you back around 700 years from Plato's time to 1000BC, possibly they mixed up the 0 but since it is written 9000 a few times I am not sure that could explain it.

4) Is it relevant that Mt Atlas is in North Africa? What date did the desertification of the Sahara begin? Could it have beeb what Plato was eluding to? Also, is there reliable dating for the mediterranean sea, could it have housed whata we know as Atlantis? It is between the pillars and Malta has some of the oldest temples in the region and is linked with giants and serpents.

Absolutely, it is my fave place to put Atlantis, my original theory is in the Sahara... see my own thread titles Atlantis Found In The Sahara...

6)The whole story could alternatively simply be an allegorical tale meant for various meanings about greed and cataclysm. There is a hypothesis somewhere that Hercules and his twelve trials represent the zodiac and the Herakles we associate with him was a great inventor who made compasses, spy glass (telescope) and others. I will try and find it another time.

Absolutely. This is where this new theory fits in. Did you see my new post with info regarding the Heracleion being in Sais, recent archaeological evidence.

7)Had the Library at Alexandria not been destroyed then no doubt there would be an abundance of evidence to sift through. As it is we've got what we've got but Atlantis has never been far from the peoples consciousness and peaks in its interests has often preceded great change.

It is the enigma of all enigmas. Our ancient ancestors were not as primitive as we would be led to believe. Theirs was different but a way of life to be highly respected. Just look at the ancient wonders of the world. Clever stuff and maybe they were copying what was known of Atlantis or previous cultures.

Absolutely to both.

Edited to try and fix quotes...

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

As Atlanteans were so keen on precious metals I kinda assumed they would need to be sailing to any land they new of to mine for ore. This what the Phoenicians did so maybe they are descended from common ancestors. There is evidence of pre-historic mining on both coats of America and all of Europe.

I have heard there is evidence of mining in Southern Spain from 2000BC when no one is 'supposed' to have mined there until the Phoenicians around 1000BC...

I really think those pesky Phoenicians have something to do with Atlantis...

[Qoais]

Recalling that even Manetho gives the 1st 10 Kings of Egypt a time frame back thousands of years around 9000BC I don't think it would be that unusual for him to be using a time frame given to him by Egyptians. That or he is using lunar months as a year, 9000 months would take you back around 700 years from Plato's time to 1000BC, possibly they mixed up the 0 but since it is written 9000 a few times I am not sure that could explain it.

That - and they wrote the numbers as words. 1,000 would be written "one thousand".

[The Puzzler]

Ha ha. I forgot that no one set foot on American soil before good old Christopher Columbus. Never mind maybe something else will come up eh?

I was referring to the language yes. Not one people but many descended from the one that probably crossed the bering strait during some ice age or other or fled Atlantis or elswhere at some point. Pre history is vast and we don't have much of a clue in the context that we find ourselves in. To think we can say with precision what happenned in the distant past. To do so would be arrogant and a little ignorant. It will all come out in the wash I suppose.

The Bourne Stone:

The Bourne Stone is an archaeological curiosity located in the town of Bourne, Massachusetts.

The object is a 300-pound chunk of pink granite, upon which two lines of carvings were made. For many years it served as the doorstep for a meetinghouse in Bourne. It is currently on display at the museum of the Bourne Historical Society.

The controversial amateur epigrapher Barry Fell claimed that the carvings were made in Iberian script and read as follows:

A proclamation. Of annexation. Do not deface. By this Hanno takes possession.

Fell asserted that "Hanno" referred to Hanno the Navigator, which, if true, would date the stone to about 570 BC and offer evidence that the Carthaginians crossed the Atlantic in ancient times.

Archaeologists and historians do not take these claims seriously and presume that, if the stone is anything more than a hoax, the carvings were made by Native Americans.

You gotta love the way these experts don't know what it means but know what it doesn't mean...

[The Puzzler]

That - and they wrote the numbers as words. 1,000 would be written "one thousand".

Yes it is like that in the translation...is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.

There's eight thousand years old, so not only is nine thousand years old written eight thousand is also written.

[The Puzzler]

An etiological myth on how Athens acquired this name was well known amongst ancient Athenians and even became the theme of Parthenon's West pediment sculpture. Both Athena and Poseidon requested to be patrons and give their name to the city, so they competed, offering the city one gift each. Poseidon produced a spring by striking the ground with his trident, symbolizing naval power. Athena created the olive tree, symbolizing peace and prosperity. The Athenians under Cecrops accepted the olive tree and named the city after Athena. Athḗnai is a plural form: the city was called "The Athenses" since it was originally a group of ten cities which Theseus unified into one city. In his dialogs Cratylus, Plato gives the etymology of Athena's name based on the view of the ancient Athenians:

"That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athene "mind" [nous] and "intelligence" [dianoia], and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, "divine intelligence" [theou noesis], as though he would say: This is she who has the mind better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence [en ethei noesin], and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a better form, and called her Athene".

Plato, Cratylus, 407b

Thus for Plato her name was to be derived from Greek Ētheonóa (Ή-θεο-νόα) or Atheonóa (Ἀθεονόα) — which the Greeks rationalized as from god's (theos) mind (nous).

This myth I feel could be the myth the story of Atlantis is hidden in. You know comparable to a real event in a myth like the Phaeton example Plato gives...maybe the Phoenicians tried to take Athens at some time past while they seem to be popping back and forth...or pre-Athens being 10 cities (=10 Kings)..bed for me.

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[SlimJim22]

An etiological myth on how Athens acquired this name was well known amongst ancient Athenians and even became the theme of Parthenon's West pediment sculpture. Both Athena and Poseidon requested to be patrons and give their name to the city, so they competed, offering the city one gift each. Poseidon produced a spring by striking the ground with his trident, symbolizing naval power. Athena created the olive tree, symbolizing peace and prosperity. The Athenians under Cecrops accepted the olive tree and named the city after Athena. Athḗnai is a plural form: the city was called "The Athenses" since it was originally a group of ten cities which Theseus unified into one city. In his dialogs Cratylus, Plato gives the etymology of Athena's name based on the view of the ancient Athenians:

"That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athene "mind" [nous] and "intelligence" [dianoia], and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, "divine intelligence" [theou noesis], as though he would say: This is she who has the mind better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence [en ethei noesin], and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a better form, and called her Athene".

Plato, Cratylus, 407b

Thus for Plato her name was to be derived from Greek Ētheonóa (Ή-θεο-νόα) or Atheonóa (Ἀθεονόα) — which the Greeks rationalized as from god's (theos) mind (nous).

This myth I feel could be the myth the story of Atlantis is hidden in. You know comparable to a real event in a myth like the Phaeton example Plato gives...maybe the Phoenicians tried to take Athens at some time past while they seem to be popping back and forth...or pre-Athens being 10 cities (=10 Kings)..bed for me.

Not sure, I've always thought of the Phoenicians more as traders than conquerors. They seemed to live in close proximity with people and were happy to be commissioned builders on demand. When roughly do we equate the founding of Athenses with? I would say 2,000bce the start but considering the mass migration of approx 1500bce are we looking at a date after that event. This was a time of volcanic eruptions all over the place and not a great time for building or maybe it was.

[The Puzzler]

One more for anyone interested:

The word Athens is Pre-Greek...what does that mean??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Greek

The term Pre-Greek substrate refers to the unknown language or languages that are conjectured to have been spoken in prehistoric Greece before the settlement of Proto-Greek speakers in the area. It is thought possible that Greek took over a large number of words and proper names from such a language (or languages), because a proportion of its vocabulary can't be satisfactorily explained as deriving either from Proto-Indo-European or any known, directly attested languages.

Anatolian substratum

An Anatolian (perhaps specifically Luwian[3]) substratum has been proposed, on the basis of -ss- and -nd- (corresponding to -ss- and -nth- in mainland Greece) placenames being widespread in Western Anatolia.

[edit] Tyrrhenian substratum

On the basis of statements in Thucydides that Tyrrhenian was a former language of Athens and that the Tyrrhenians had been expelled to Lemnos, it has been suggested that the substrate language was related to Lemnian, and thus by association to Etruscan.

[edit] Minoan substratum

The existence of a Minoan (Eteocretan) substratum is the view of Arthur Evans who assumed widespread Minoan colonisation of the Aegean, policed by a Minoan thalassocracy.

Any or all of the above suits me.. But I particularly like this one: Tyrrhenian a former language of Athens...

Edited January 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Not sure, I've always thought of the Phoenicians more as traders than conquerors. They seemed to live in close proximity with people and were happy to be commissioned builders on demand. When roughly do we equate the founding of Athenses with? I would say 2,000bce the start but considering the mass migration of approx 1500bce are we looking at a date after that event. This was a time of volcanic eruptions all over the place and not a great time for building or maybe it was.

I think they were insidious conquerers of areas given half a chance...Carthage and Gades...no one lived there before they arrived??

In myth ie: Cadmus of Thebes.

Apparently the habitation of Athens goes back 7000 years.

[Qoais]

Rather than try to remember if I've covered everyone in personal visits, I'd like to wish my fellow posters best wishes for all good things in the New Year. At least if I say it here, most of you will see it!!