Atlantis

[The Puzzler]

From the Plato text above I showed there is this part:

And during the ten years in which the Achaeans were besieging

Ilium, the homes of the besiegers were falling into an evil plight.

Their youth revolted; and when the soldiers returned to their own

cities and families, they did not receive them properly, and as they

ought to have done, and numerous deaths, murders, exiles, were the

consequence. The exiles came again, under a new name, no longer

Achaeans, but Dorians-a name which they derived from Dorieus; for it

was he who gathered them together. The rest of the story is told by

you Lacedaemonians as part of the history of Sparta.

So, the Archaean soldiers who made it back to Greece from Troy were not received well, the story of Agamemnons return is a good illustration of this...the Orestes stories are so mixed up they are hard to know what is going on but the summary of the action of this is:

Orestes appears also to be a dramatic prototype for all persons whose crime is mitigated by extenuating circumstances. These legends belong to an age when higher ideas of law and of social duty were being established; the implacable blood-feud of primitive society gives place to a fair trial, and in Athens, when the votes of the judges are evenly divided, mercy prevails.

Not to mention these exiles of Greece after the Trojan War...who were banded together under Doreis, this name can be found in Crete. Crete would be the place to exile to I guess..so this then indicates the Dorians are actually the exiles of Greece, returning soldiers of the Trojan War. The return of the Dorians from exile could then be the 'Dorian invasion' back to Greece. The history of the Dorians is actually the history of the Spartans and according to the above they would be the Archaeans of the Trojan War.

# Professor Karl Beloch has suggested that there was no Dorian invasion, but rather that the Peloponnesian Dorians were the Achaeans.[3]

# Professor Eduard Meyer, disagreeing with Beloch, has instead put forth the suggestion that the real-life Achaeans were mainland pre-Dorian Greeks.[4] His conclusion is based on his research on the similarity between the languages of the Achaeans and pre-historic Arcadians.

I see both of these men are right actually...the Peloponnesian Dorians were the Archaeans and the real life Archaeans were mainland pre-Dorian Greeks.

Edit to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans

During the 5th year of Pharaoh Merneptah, a confederation of Libyan and northern peoples is supposed to have attacked the Western Delta. Included amongst the ethnic names of the repulsed invaders is the Ekwesh or Eqwesh, whom some have seen as Achaeans. Homer mentions an Achaean attack upon the delta, and Menelaus speaks of the same in Book 4 of the Odyssey to Telemachos when he recounts his own return home from the Trojan War. Later Greek myths also say that Helen had spent the time of the Trojan War in Egypt, and not at Troy, and that after Troy the Greeks went there to recover her. There is also the strange myth of the brothers Aegyptus and Danaus, sons of Belus, with the latter supposedly coming from Egypt, that Marianne Luban has suggested may date to this time.

It appears an Archaean attack on Egypt has been recorded.

Ok, we are getting back to Troy but in realising the myth of Orestes is about the forming of democracy could be important.

PPS: http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Dardanus/id/458160

Dardanus

In Greek mythology, Dardanus ("burner up") was a son of Zeus and Electra, daughter of Atlas, and founder of the city of Dardania on Mount Ida in the Troad.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus (1.61–62) states that Dardanus' original home was in Arcadia where Dardanus and his elder brother Iasus (elsewhere more commonly called Iasion) reigned as kings following Atlas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia

Edited January 3, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Qoais]

Wow, you sure are following a difficult trail P. Complicated.

I went back and found this sentence in Jim Allen's reply regarding the word "Antis" being of the Quechua language, rather than the Nahuatl language.

The Moroccan Atlas mountains are only 13671 feet at the highest point where the Andes mountains reach to 22840 feet, a much better candidate for the mountains where Atlas held up the sky especially considering that what we call “Andes” mountains is called “Antis” mountains in the Quechua language of the people who actually live there. The Altiplano is also known locally as the place where the sky meets the earth…..

Now I need to go back and see what else he said regarding the "atl" thing.

Here's a bit of it - actually going back over and over what he posted, I can see where he got annoyed with me. Some of what he was saying wasn't registering with me!!

And of course the name itself. We are looking for Atl Antis and we find the rectangular plain and other details as mentioned above in a country which includes Antis already in its name “Antisuyo” meaning “kingdom of the Antis” as the Inca name for the region along the north-eastern slopes of the Andes where the Indians also called “Antis” lived – “Antis is the name of the mountain range in the language of the Incas and means “copper”.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Qoais

[Swede]

Wow, you sure are following a difficult trail P. Complicated.

I went back and found this sentence in Jim Allen's reply regarding the word "Antis" being of the Quechua language, rather than the Nahuatl language.

Now I need to go back and see what else he said regarding the "atl" thing.

Here's a bit of it - actually going back over and over what he posted, I can see where he got annoyed with me. Some of what he was saying wasn't registering with me!!

Qoais - I caught the above factors on the first go-around, hence my problems with such. And he is annoyed with you because you are pointing out a most questionable aspect of his "interpretation" (I'm using that term in the archaeological sense). As has been most aptly pointed out by jaylemurph, such manipulations are an obvious red flag. Not to mention all the other questionable "evidence", or, more accurately, lack there-of.

[cormac mac airt]

And of course the name itself. We are looking for Atl Antis and we find the rectangular plain and other details as mentioned above in a country which includes Antis already in its name “Antisuyo” meaning “kingdom of the Antis” as the Inca name for the region along the north-eastern slopes of the Andes where the Indians also called “Antis” lived – “Antis is the name of the mountain range in the language of the Incas and means “copper”.

So, Allen is combining “Atl” which is Aztecan/Nahuatl from central Mexico (circa 14th century AD) with something with “Antis” in its name which is Incan/Quechua (Circa 12th century AD) from Peru. These cultures are neither linguistically, nor geographically, related. And both cultures existed from 1500 to 2000 years AFTER Plato’s account. One has to wonder if they time-travelled as well.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Wow, you sure are following a difficult trail P. Complicated.

I think the story is complicated in itself and contains many layers of info.

But I did show some things that were pretty simple -

Homer describes the area of the Troad as being a fertile plain with a low hill.

A deluge does not necessarily indicate water is involved even though Plato himself talks about a prior Trojan city having been washed away in the deluge.

The story of Orestes (Agamemnons son) is about the beginnings of democracy.

The returning Archaeans became the Dorians/Spartans.

In the time of Dardanus who founded Dardania in the Troad we can find all 4 persons Plato says as being mentioned in the narrative of Solon. One is even a King of Dardania.

Not to mention Dardanus is a grandson of Atlas.

I think it's probably the least complicated theory of all Q and the one that makes the most sense.

Edited to add the 5th point.

Edited January 4, 2010 by The Puzzler

[jaylemurph]

Oh I forgot. Remember how Plato said ?

What we miss all the time is that there has got to be words that AREN'T changed as well. Like Atl and antis put together for Atlantis. Atl meaning water and antis meaning copper. Why change something that already made sense? For instance, if we travel to a different country, do we change the name of the country, or of it's cities? No, we don't. So why would Plato change the name of a foreign country or the name of one of it's cities?

Actually, we do all the time. Toponyms are rarely the same in different languages, especially historically speaking. Germans, for instance, don't call Germany "Germany" -- they use their own perfectly good word for it, Duetschland. Nor do the Japanese call Japan "Japan" or the Chinese "China." It's the same for many historical cities as well as regions. And that's excepting all the places names that are deliberately changed by regime changes or politics, like Leningrad or Stalingrad or any number of post-colonial nations.

--Jaylemurph

[Qoais]

I've been going back in my notes and found the link for the pictures of ancient rope found with the ships.

Click on the highlighted words within the article to see the pictures.

http://www.livescience.com/history/060306_desert_ships.html

[Qoais]

Actually, we do all the time. Toponyms are rarely the same in different languages, especially historically speaking. Germans, for instance, don't call Germany "Germany" -- they use their own perfectly good word for it, Duetschland. Nor do the Japanese call Japan "Japan" or the Chinese "China." It's the same for many historical cities as well as regions. And that's excepting all the places names that are deliberately changed by regime changes or politics, like Leningrad or Stalingrad or any number of post-colonial nations.

--Jaylemurph

Ok - so if we were looking for the root word of Germany which is English for Duetschland, would we find the root word for Duetschland?

[Qoais]

I did a bunch of rechecking on what Jim Allen said, and then I chatted with Cormac and then I thought I'd better pull myself together and try to make sense of how a word from Bolivia could end up in Plato's writings - allowing largess for any manner of unproven possibilities that would allow Bolivians to end up in the Med. in ancient times in the first place.

As the saying goes - KISS it. Keep It Simple, Stupid

Mind you, I don't find anything simple about all these different peoples and all their different languages and who taught who which. Anyway, here's the result of my efforts. At least, on this one minor issue!!

My Response to Jim Allen:

You said:

Quote

Although Plato says particularly more so in the other translated versions that Atlantis was named after the first son, Atlas, in the above Bury translation, Bury states that both Atlantis and Atlas were named from the same source word. I have already given an explanation of how we are looking for a place called Atlantis and the actual name of this part of South America is called Andes from the local word Antis meaning copper.

Although Atlantis and Alas were likely named from the same source word, it would seem however, that it was a Greek source word, not a Quechua or Nahuatl source word. At least as far as Plato writing the words down goes. There could be a comparable sounding word in the S. American languages, but it would not have influenced the use of the word in Plato's writings. Again, because of the time line.

Solon lived 638-558 BC and it is supposedly from his notes the story comes. If we add your 9000 lunar months (675 or so years) we get say around 1275 BC which gives us from today, about 32-3300 years ago.

In searching for the origins of the Nahuatl language Wikipedia says Nahuatl has been spoken in Central Mexico since at least the 7th century AD.[5] It was the language of the Aztecs, who dominated what is now central Mexico during the Late Postclassic period of Mesoamerican chronology. All Nahuan languages are indigenous to Mesoamerica. The Classical Nahuatl word nāhuatl (noun stem nāhua, + absolutive[2] -tl ) is thought to mean "a good, clear sound"[3] This language name has several spellings, among them Náhuatl (the standard spelling in the Spanish language[4])

Nahuatl (Nahuatl pronunciation: [ˈnaː.watɬ] ( listen), with stress on the first syllable) is a group of related languages and dialects of the Nahuan (traditionally called "Aztecan") branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family. The Uto-Aztecan language family, itself, originating in the South Central United States/Northern Mexico has nothing to do with Bolivia. Plato says "Atlantis" which is some variation meaning "of Atlas" which is specifically Greek. The closest word from the Americas, "Aztlan", is Aztec which didn't exist for nearly 2000 years AFTER Plato and was believed by the Aztecs to have been to the North, which rules out Bolivia.

Spanish was developed from Latin, and Latin is a member of the broad family of Italic languages. Its alphabet, the Latin alphabet, emerged from the Old Italic alphabets, which in turn were derived from the Greek and Phoenician scripts.

In summary, because the words of the indigenous peoples were written down by the Spanish, the spelling does not influence the meaning. In other words, the natives could have used any word at all for water or mountain. The point is, there was no spelling for the word in the language of it's origin. Therefore, we cannot use the Spanish spelling to show the derivation or root of the indigenous word.

Spanish did not influence the Greek language, it was the other way round. Therefore, the word Atlantis, as written by Plato, has a Greek root.

Sorry - I forgot to include the part about the Incas.

From Wikipedia:

The Inca civilization began as a tribe in the Cuzco area, where the legendary first Sapa Inca, Manco Capac founded the Kingdom of Cuzco around 1200. Under the leadership of the descendants of Manco Capac, the Inca state grew to absorb other Andean communities. In 1442, the Incas began a far-reaching expansion under the command of Patchacuti. He founded the Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu), which became the largest empire in pre-Columbian America.[1

Emergence and expansion

Inca expansion (1438-1527 AD)

The Inca people began as a tribe of the Killke culture in the Cuzco area around the 12th century AD. Under the leadership of Manco Capac, they formed the small city-state of Cuzco (Quechua Qosqo).

Much much later genesis than Plato and therefore not an influence on what he wrote.

[Qoais]

Ok - so if we were looking for the root word of Germany which is English for Duetschland, would we find the root word for Duetschland?

Don't answer that. It just so happens that it's a bad word to ask that question about. But I'm sure you get my meaning. Specific to this scenario about Bolivia, we have a Spanish spelling for words in the Nahuatl language, so the root word would be the Spanish root, not the Nahuatl root. If the English would have conquered S. America, we would have written their words in the English language. So when we look for the root of the word, we have to look for the English root because that's the language it's written in. I suppose the Nahuatl language HAS roots too, it wasn't born full fledged I wouldn't think, but using the Spanish spelling of the word, isn't going to give the root of the Nahuatl word.

[Lander7]

Jules Verne wrote fictional stories during the time of railroads and steam engines, fantastic Sci-Fi for his day. He wrote stories about mankind going to the moon, submarines, Practical demonstrations of electrical power, and much more all before the invention of the light bulb. These are incredible stories that feel more like predictions; most of which have come true.

One story that has not come true is the discovery of the ruins of Atlantis on the ocean bottom. I think we should start collecting information from other books and see if there is a pattern. Something is going on and I dont believe in coincidence.

[Qoais]

Welcome to the forum Lander7. May the force be with you cause you're going to need it

One story that has not come true is the discovery of the ruins of Atlantis on the ocean bottom. I think we should start collecting information from other books and see if there is a pattern. Something is going on and I don’t believe in coincidence.

What coincidence? Do fairy tales come true? If the story of Atlantis was a figment of Plato's imagination, it ain't going to come true no matter what Jules Verne said.

[The Puzzler]

I did a bunch of rechecking on what Jim Allen said, and then I chatted with Cormac and then I thought I'd better pull myself together and try to make sense of how a word from Bolivia could end up in Plato's writings - allowing largess for any manner of unproven possibilities that would allow Bolivians to end up in the Med. in ancient times in the first place.

As the saying goes - KISS it. Keep It Simple, Stupid

Mind you, I don't find anything simple about all these different peoples and all their different languages and who taught who which. Anyway, here's the result of my efforts. At least, on this one minor issue!!

My Response to Jim Allen:

You said:

Quote

Although Plato says particularly more so in the other translated versions that Atlantis was named after the first son, Atlas, in the above Bury translation, Bury states that both Atlantis and Atlas were named from the same source word. I have already given an explanation of how we are looking for a place called Atlantis and the actual name of this part of South America is called Andes from the local word Antis meaning copper.

Although Atlantis and Alas were likely named from the same source word, it would seem however, that it was a Greek source word, not a Quechua or Nahuatl source word. At least as far as Plato writing the words down goes. There could be a comparable sounding word in the S. American languages, but it would not have influenced the use of the word in Plato's writings. Again, because of the time line.

Solon lived 638-558 BC and it is supposedly from his notes the story comes. If we add your 9000 lunar months (675 or so years) we get say around 1275 BC which gives us from today, about 32-3300 years ago.

In searching for the origins of the Nahuatl language Wikipedia says Nahuatl has been spoken in Central Mexico since at least the 7th century AD.[5] It was the language of the Aztecs, who dominated what is now central Mexico during the Late Postclassic period of Mesoamerican chronology. All Nahuan languages are indigenous to Mesoamerica. The Classical Nahuatl word nāhuatl (noun stem nāhua, + absolutive[2] -tl ) is thought to mean "a good, clear sound"[3] This language name has several spellings, among them Náhuatl (the standard spelling in the Spanish language[4])

Nahuatl (Nahuatl pronunciation: [ˈnaː.watɬ] ( listen), with stress on the first syllable) is a group of related languages and dialects of the Nahuan (traditionally called "Aztecan") branch of the Uto-Aztecan language family. The Uto-Aztecan language family, itself, originating in the South Central United States/Northern Mexico has nothing to do with Bolivia. Plato says "Atlantis" which is some variation meaning "of Atlas" which is specifically Greek. The closest word from the Americas, "Aztlan", is Aztec which didn't exist for nearly 2000 years AFTER Plato and was believed by the Aztecs to have been to the North, which rules out Bolivia.

Spanish was developed from Latin, and Latin is a member of the broad family of Italic languages. Its alphabet, the Latin alphabet, emerged from the Old Italic alphabets, which in turn were derived from the Greek and Phoenician scripts.

In summary, because the words of the indigenous peoples were written down by the Spanish, the spelling does not influence the meaning. In other words, the natives could have used any word at all for water or mountain. The point is, there was no spelling for the word in the language of it's origin. Therefore, we cannot use the Spanish spelling to show the derivation or root of the indigenous word.

Spanish did not influence the Greek language, it was the other way round. Therefore, the word Atlantis, as written by Plato, has a Greek root.

Sorry - I forgot to include the part about the Incas.

From Wikipedia:

The Inca civilization began as a tribe in the Cuzco area, where the legendary first Sapa Inca, Manco Capac founded the Kingdom of Cuzco around 1200. Under the leadership of the descendants of Manco Capac, the Inca state grew to absorb other Andean communities. In 1442, the Incas began a far-reaching expansion under the command of Patchacuti. He founded the Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu), which became the largest empire in pre-Columbian America.[1

Emergence and expansion

Inca expansion (1438-1527 AD)

The Inca people began as a tribe of the Killke culture in the Cuzco area around the 12th century AD. Under the leadership of Manco Capac, they formed the small city-state of Cuzco (Quechua Qosqo).

Much much later genesis than Plato and therefore not an influence on what he wrote.

Very good!

See how Atlantis could be based in a prior Troy with this post - #780

Homer describes the area of the Troad as being a fertile plain with a low hill.

A deluge does not necessarily indicate water is involved even though Plato himself talks about a prior Trojan city having been washed away in the deluge.

The story of Orestes (Agamemnons son) is about the beginnings of democracy.

The returning Archaeans became the Dorians/Spartans.

In the time of Dardanus who founded Dardania in the Troad we can find all 4 persons Plato says as being mentioned in the narrative of Solon. One is even a King of Dardania.

Not to mention Dardanus is a grandson of Atlas.

I haven't got the fine details but I think this is the best bet to amount to something. I'm going to renew my investigations into this one.

[The Puzzler]

In trying to investigate Plato's claims that much of Greece had been washed away including the Acropolis dirt in an excessive and very quick deluge one could find that the tsunami of Thera having reached Israel, Athens is a lot closer than Israel so that a wave rushed over Thessaly into mainland Athens could have been a possibility, not to mention hitting the Troad in Turkey/Anatolia.

http://medarch.blogspot.com/2009/11/thera-tsunamis-once-again.html

In the Mediterranean, Killer Tsunamis From an Ancient Eruption

By WILLIAM J. BROAD

Published: November 2, 2009

The massive eruption of the Thera volcano in the Aegean Sea more than 3,000 years ago produced killer waves that raced across hundreds of miles of the Eastern Mediterranean to inundate the area that is now Israel and probably other coastal sites, a team of scientists has found.

The team, writing in the October issue of Geology, said the new evidence suggested that giant tsunamis from the catastrophic eruption hit “coastal sites across the Eastern Mediterranean littoral.” Tsunamis are giant waves that can crash into shore, rearrange the seabed, inundate vast areas of land and carry terrestrial material out to sea.

The region at the time was home to rising civilizations in Crete, Cyprus, Egypt, Phoenicia and Turkey.

For decades, scholars have suggested that the giant eruption, just 70 miles from Crete, might have brought about the mysterious collapse of Minoan civilization at the peak of its glory. The remnants of Thera’s eruption today make up a circular archipelago of volcanic Greek isles known as Santorini.

[Qoais]

Off topic but Tsunamis

Puzzler, did you feel these?

Solomon Islands Earthquake: Two Quakes Hits South Pacific

First Posted: 01- 3-10 06:16 PM | Updated: 01- 3-10 07:33 PM

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Two earthquakes, one a magnitude 7.2 quake, have struck near Solomon Islands, the U.S. Geological Survey said Monday, but there were no immediate reports of injury or damage.

The larger quake, at 9:36 local time (2236 GMT Sunday) was centered 64 miles (103 kilometers) southeast of Gizo, the USGS said. It followed an earlier magnitude 6.5 quake that struck at 8:48 local (2148 GMT Sunday) and was centered 54 miles (90 kilometers) southeast of Gizo at a depth of 6 miles (10 kilometers).

There were no warnings posted on the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center web site.

Gizo was badly damaged and more than 50 people killed when a magnitude 8.1 quake struck on April 2, 2007, sending a tsunami crashing into the coast.

http://www.prh.noaa.gov/ptwc/?region=1

[The Puzzler]

Off topic but Tsunamis

Puzzler, did you feel these?

Solomon Islands Earthquake: Two Quakes Hits South Pacific

First Posted: 01- 3-10 06:16 PM | Updated: 01- 3-10 07:33 PM

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Two earthquakes, one a magnitude 7.2 quake, have struck near Solomon Islands, the U.S. Geological Survey said Monday, but there were no immediate reports of injury or damage.

The larger quake, at 9:36 local time (2236 GMT Sunday) was centered 64 miles (103 kilometers) southeast of Gizo, the USGS said. It followed an earlier magnitude 6.5 quake that struck at 8:48 local (2148 GMT Sunday) and was centered 54 miles (90 kilometers) southeast of Gizo at a depth of 6 miles (10 kilometers).

There were no warnings posted on the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center web site.

Gizo was badly damaged and more than 50 people killed when a magnitude 8.1 quake struck on April 2, 2007, sending a tsunami crashing into the coast.

http://www.prh.noaa.gov/ptwc/?region=1

Not that I know of, I don't think either of them generated any sort of tsunami.

The US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration said no tsunami was expected.

Geoscience Australia said the quake was probably about 80 kilometres from the nearest land, and could cause a local tsunami but that it was unlikely to be a major wave.

"It's a big earthquake but it's probably not going to cause a large regional tsunami," Geoscience Australia seismologist Clive Collins said.

Collins said a local tsunami was possible but there had been no reports of damage as yet and these were very difficult to predict.

"I don't think there's any problem but we don't any information as yet," he told AFP.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1163542/Strong-quake-strikes-Solomon-Islands

[Abramelin]

In trying to investigate Plato's claims that much of Greece had been washed away including the Acropolis dirt in an excessive and very quick deluge one could find that the tsunami of Thera having reached Israel, Athens is a lot closer than Israel so that a wave rushed over Thessaly into mainland Athens could have been a possibility, not to mention hitting the Troad in Turkey/Anatolia.

And Puzzler, what do you think of this tsunami?

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3107156

In case you or anyone else hates clicking links, lol, here's a YouTube video of Mt Etna exploding, 8000 BP, causing a huge tsunami:

Mt. Etna exploding 8000 BP, causing a huge tsunami:

The tsunami would have reached a height of about 40 metres on the continental shelf near what is now Calabria, causing waves 8 to 13 metres high along the coasts of modern Greece and Libya, and 2 to 4 metres high in parts of Egypt and Syria.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I find that super interesting Abramelin, thank you so much, I love the map image you posted, I hadn't thought about Mt Etna much but even out of this thread the info is really good to learn, that is one of the reasons I still chase Atlantis, I think I am addicted to learning new things and it gives me such a scope to investigate things I would never have known or learnt about.

An eruption in 6000BC is rather interesting, it seems almost too early to be of significance to anyone but it must have been felt and known about by civilisations of the time and maybe the knowledge was handed down. It seems a very active volcano but not much mention of anything between 6000BC, 396BC then something around 150BC, but is recorded by Virgil in the Aeneid and mentioned by Siculus (have not read his writing about it yet). It must have had some sort of impact on ancient Greeks cause it features in a famous myth:

In Greek Mythology, the deadly monster Typhon was trapped under this mountain by Zeus, the god of the sky.

Also: Research published in 2006 suggests that this occurred around 6000 BC, and caused a huge tsunami which left its mark in several places in the eastern Mediterranean. It may have been the reason that the settlement of Atlit Yam (Israel), now below sea level, was suddenly abandoned around that time.

There seems to be many places now below sea level or so high above sea level they make no sense, my father said he was amazed at these wharfs and ancient jetties around Italy that were miles inland...

Malta too has always been of interest to me, not only the temples dated as far back as 4000BC and the enigmatic cart tracks that just go into the sea and apparently are not as uniform as they are made out to be, but Malta even had dwarf elephants! Maybe Malta was a lot larger than it appears now from many accounts. If you look at the satellite pic.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta it gives the appearance of a very fractured island that has collapsed away in parts.

The culture apparently disappeared from the Maltese Islands around 2500 BC. Archeologists speculate that the temple builders fell victim to famine or disease; war is an unlikely cause as archeology has yielded little or no evidence of weapons.[citation needed]. Others have speculated on the links between this event and Plato's account of the disappearance of Atlantis.

2500BC the culture disappeared, another oddity, famine, disease speculated, fine but what about another Mt Etna explosion...bending my brain some I could see how in that timeframe it seems likely and may be responsible to for lost cart tracks..earth falling away and that Zeus equates it with a place where Typhon (chaos) is could also place it a possible Atlantis scenario. Typhon himself is the offspring of Gaia and Tartarus...Earth and hellfire.

Also Plato says: In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic Hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testament Sheol.

Atlantis can if not taken literally be seen as a kind of place where the souls who had been judged harshly ended up.

I understand Tartarus to have been on the extreme western side of the known world.

And how about Tantalus..who ends up in Tartarus. I know it doesn't hold water but an anagram for it is Atlantus...tantalise, even better Atlanties or how about Atlaentis, with an extra e of course...but many words denoting Greek actually have that ae. Archaeans, Mycenaeans...Aetna even, (Etna) or we could forget the e in tantalise, making tantalis, now that one is perfect - Atlantis...I know one thing Atlantis sure tantalises me. Maybe that is the riddle...

That could all fit with my (new) theory that I haven't completely worked out yet but have a thread here that I started...Earth Is Atlantis...like the perfect Heavenly copy of Earth sinks into 'Hell'.

Well, at least it's in the right direction... (may deserve some more of my attention methinks)

Edited to add italics.

Edited January 4, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This website has some interesting stuff although I have read it before and don't agree with some of it like the main theme of it being in the area of Indonesia, but the premise is there and the beautiful Hypostyle in Egypt we see with the stars on the blue ceiling and multitude of Pillars always seemed to fit in somehow..

The walls of Atlantis were plated with bronze, tin and orichalc, according to the texts of Plato. Obviously, the Egyptians were unable to embody this costly feature on their walls. Many ancient traditions (Hesiod, Theog. 723; Virgil, Aen. 540, etc.) tell how the walls of Tartarus, the realm of Hades, were triple and bronzy, being garnished with a lofty defense tower at the front gate. Hades (or Tartarus) is, indeed, an allegory of sunken Atlantis, turned infernal after the cataclysm that devastated it.

As is clear, it is hard not to see that the Egyptian temples, with their triple walls and lofty towers, were indeed an imitation of Atlantis, whose features they paralled very closely. The descriptions of the Duat or Amenti the Egyptian equivalent of the Elysium or Islands of the Blest, with its towers, walls and pylons, its well-watered gardens, and its canals and districts that one can read about in the Book of the Dead, are too perfect a replica of Atlantis to allow any doubts about its identification with the sunken continent. It is not conceivable, then, that the Egyptians were merely inventing a legend when they told the story of Atlantis and its demise to Solon, through whom it reached Plato.

The Earth will sink down under the sea into Tartarus (Hell or whatever type of Hell you want to insert) seems a common theme for those who upset the Gods too much.

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

Can you post these pictures so we can all see?

I always said that i would show them here first ,it's not about the money with me.

i am trying to finish up the first 4 of 24 atleast but these first 4 are the gates.

and these gates can clearly bee seen.

the best thing which i like is at the end of me showing these things to which i have come to show ,there will only be truth and no lies and wonderment on how the hell it could be.

[M.A.D CapeBretoner]

I always said that i would show them here first ,it's not about the money with me.

i am trying to finish up the first 4 of 24 atleast but these first 4 are the gates.

and these gates can clearly bee seen.

the best thing which i like is at the end of me showing these things to which i have come to show ,there will only be truth and no lies and wonderment on how the hell it could be.

ow yea i think heart might be able to dig up some old pic's that i have put on here but keep in mind with those pic's since then i have improved the process of shading in those shadows that can be seen.

[Abramelin]

I find that super interesting Abramelin, thank you so much, I love the map image you posted, I hadn't thought about Mt Etna much but even out of this thread the info is really good to learn, that is one of the reasons I still chase Atlantis, I think I am addicted to learning new things and it gives me such a scope to investigate things I would never have known or learnt about.

An eruption in 6000BC is rather interesting, it seems almost too early to be of significance to anyone but it must have been felt and known about by civilisations of the time and maybe the knowledge was handed down. It seems a very active volcano but not much mention of anything between 6000BC, 396BC then something around 150BC, but is recorded by Virgil in the Aeneid and mentioned by Siculus (have not read his writing about it yet). It must have had some sort of impact on ancient Greeks cause it features in a famous myth:

In Greek Mythology, the deadly monster Typhon was trapped under this mountain by Zeus, the god of the sky.

About the ancient Aegean Sea:

The current coastline dates back to about 4000 BC. Before that time, at the peak of the last ice age (c. 16,000 BC) sea levels everywhere were 130 metres lower, and there were large well-watered coastal plains instead of much of the northern Aegean. When they were first occupied, the present-day islands including Milos with its important obsidian production were probably still connected to the mainland. The present coastal arrangement appeared c. 7000 BC, with post-ice age sea levels continuing to rise for another 3000 years after that.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea

And here is how it might have looked:

Then, around 5600 BC, there was the breach of the Bosporus...and the creation of the present Black Sea.

Well, if the dates are a bit off, could the Etna eruption/slide and subsequent tsunami not have flooded the land in the Aegean, and also caused the Bosporus to breach??

I think that may have caused quite a 'stirr' in the eastern Mediterannean, and not surprizingly gave rise to some scary legends about floods, submerged lands, and all that.

[The Puzzler]

About the ancient Aegean Sea:

The current coastline dates back to about 4000 BC. Before that time, at the peak of the last ice age (c. 16,000 BC) sea levels everywhere were 130 metres lower, and there were large well-watered coastal plains instead of much of the northern Aegean. When they were first occupied, the present-day islands including Milos with its important obsidian production were probably still connected to the mainland. The present coastal arrangement appeared c. 7000 BC, with post-ice age sea levels continuing to rise for another 3000 years after that.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea

And here is how it might have looked:

Then, around 5600 BC, there was the breach of the Bosporus...and the creation of the present Black Sea.

Well, if the dates are a bit off, could the Etna eruption/slide and subsequent tsunami not have flooded the land in the Aegean, and also caused the Bosporus to breach??

I think that may have caused quite a 'stirr' in the eastern Mediterannean, and not surprizingly gave rise to some scary legends about floods, submerged lands, and all that.

I have seen that map and studied it down to every last dot of land you can see, Q knows about it too, we often used to dwell on it's possible meaning...

Yes, that is food for thought for SURE!! I'm onto it.

That the sea water went into the Black Sea indicates a sea rise of some sort. It certainly makes getting to Crete in those earliest days of the Minoans easier...Crete appears to have been first inhabited during the Neolithic period - that is from the 6th millennium BC.

It was not to be reached by following land in some sort of flimsy boat without large sections of open sea to travel either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea

[SlimJim22]

The discussion here today has been excellent so thanks to all. The links with Tantalis and the creation of the Black sea are valid for sure. The question is how far does the story of a sunken homeland go back and can we find links in cultures to suggest common origins. I think it would be hasty to assume that Lydia was the source of the Atlantis myth but is one of many cultures that preserved the legend.

Here is a really intersting link. http://www.atlan.org/articles/corroborating_evidence/

I had never thought before how close Eden and India are. They supposedly are linked and India has similar tales to Ataltins with many commonalities.

There also appears to be evidence of a Sri Lankan people in antiquity who suffered a loss of land as sea levels rose. I am constantly reminded of the vastness of the atlantis myth.

[Abramelin]

I have seen that map and studied it down to every last dot of land you can see, Q knows about it too, we often used to dwell on it's possible meaning...

Yes, that is food for thought for SURE!! I'm onto it.

That the sea water went into the Black Sea indicates a sea rise of some sort. It certainly makes getting to Crete in those earliest days of the Minoans easier...Crete appears to have been first inhabited during the Neolithic period - that is from the 6th millennium BC.

It was not to be reached by following land in some sort of flimsy boat without large sections of open sea to travel either. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Aegean_Sea

Ah yes, you posted that map before:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=128224&view=findpost&p=2675097

I found it while searching this site for Gurdjieff's "Haninn"... (a post of mine in that same thread)