Atlantis

[Oniomancer]

...And a partridge in a pear tree.

[cormac mac airt]

...And a partridge in a pear tree.

Yeah, I know. Regardless of the exact numbers involved, though, Plato gives a massive figure (for the times involved) and Qoais' sparring partner Mr. Allen tries to, somehow, show how any of that is relevant to one of the least densely populated parts of the globe at that time. And he's looking for people to tell him he's right.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

The obvious answer is that Francis Bacon couldn't have know, since nobody returned to tell the tale. Besides, who are they going to tell, considering that neither the european countries (as such), nor their languages as we know them, existed at the time Plato claims Atlantis was destroyed.

Also, for the argument of Atlantis' army being held somewhere in the Mediterranean in preparation for the war, how does he explain this from Plato's Critias:

You might try asking Mr. Allen about this and an explaination for why there is no evidence for any of it, regardless of hemisphere:

According to Plato, that would have included, from Atlantis:

1) An estimated 60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships, APIECE. That’s 840,000 warriors per leader or 50 BILLION, 400 MILLION SOLDIERS

60,000 leaders providing (apiece):

120,000 heavy armed soldiers

120,000 slingers

180,000 stone shooters

180,000 javelin-men

240,000 sailors

840,000 military total

2) 1200 Ships

3) 10,000 chariots (which didn’t exist in the Americas) Earliest evidence being in Mesopotamia c.3rd Millenium BC

4) 20,000+ horses (which didn’t exist in the Americas until the arrival of the Spanish)

cormac

You have it wrong...

Here it is again:

1) An estimated 60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships, APIECE. That’s 840,000 warriors per leader or 50 BILLION, 400 MILLION SOLDIERS

60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of TWO heavy armed soldiers TWO slingers, THREE stone shooters and THREE javelin men and FOUR sailors to make up the complement of 1200 ships apiece.

It means 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 15 men x 60,000 leaders, then that divided by 1200 ships. That sum doesn't include the chariot riders that went as well, I was just comparing it to your example.

Each leader is chosen from a 10 stadia lot and there is 60,000 lots but there is also areas outside of this included too so you could be looking at more leaders than 60,000...

Anyway here is the version by Jowett and I don't see the word apiece at the end of the sentence.

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships. Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

Edited cause I stuffed it up at first.

Edited January 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

You have it wrong...

Here it is again:

1) An estimated 60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships, APIECE. That’s 840,000 warriors per leader or 50 BILLION, 400 MILLION SOLDIERS

60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of TWO heavy armed soldiers TWO slingers, THREE stone shooters and THREE javelin men and FOUR sailors to make up the complement of 1200 ships apiece.

It means 1 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 15 men x 60,000 leaders, then that divided by 1200 ships. That sum doesn't include the chariot riders that went as well, I was just comparing it to your example.

Each leader is chosen from a 10 stadia lot and there is 60,000 lots but there is also areas outside of this included too so you could be looking at more leaders than 60,000...

Anyway here is the version by Jowett and I don't see the word apiece at the end of the sentence.

As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships. Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

Edited cause I stuffed it up at first.

You're a little late. See Post #850. Got carried away with the numbers, it's late. Even I can be wrong occasionally.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

OK, I see Q beat me to it.

[The Puzzler]

I found it more of a coincidence that when Plato explains the measurements of the rings they go 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 with 5 in the centre and how much of those war chariots did each leader have to furnish? one sixth was it?

Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width,

Edited January 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[TheSearcher]

I didn't know anything grabbed Skywaker's hoth.

Must've been the unrated version.

H.

That would have been a "wampa", you bantha herder

Yeah, I know. Regardless of the exact numbers involved, though, Plato gives a massive figure (for the times involved) and Qoais' sparring partner Mr. Allen tries to, somehow, show how any of that is relevant to one of the least densely populated parts of the globe at that time. And he's looking for people to tell him he's right.

cormac

Seen some of the replies Q has gotten from him, he's doing a p*** poor job of it too. I would think that if you want people to agree with you, you discuss things with them, instead of telling them they have a negative attitude. Might just be me though.

[Qoais]

The way I understood it about those extra people living in the mountains was that they were assigned to a lot so as to comprise the number for the lot. Like when they take a poll today, we live in Cloverdale but are counted to pay taxes and vote in Surrey. Seems it was done so everyone was included. The plots of food growing land on the plain were worked by and fed those assigned to it. They couldn't all live on the plot and farm it at the same time.

[cormac mac airt]

That would have been a "wampa", you bantha herder

Seen some of the replies Q has gotten from him, he's doing a p*** poor job of it too. I would think that if you want people to agree with you, you discuss things with them, instead of telling them they have a negative attitude. Might just be me though.

First he'd have to have some facts for people to agree on. Currently, he's sorely lacking in that department.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

The way I understood it about those extra people living in the mountains was that they were assigned to a lot so as to comprise the number for the lot. Like when they take a poll today, we live in Cloverdale but are counted to pay taxes and vote in Surrey. Seems it was done so everyone was included. The plots of food growing land on the plain were worked by and fed those assigned to it. They couldn't all live on the plot and farm it at the same time.

He's still going to have a hell of a time trying to explain why (and how) over a million Native Americans didn't leave a trace in the Western Mediterranean.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Here is what I noticed and posted before:

I found it more of a coincidence that when Plato explains the measurements of the rings they go 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 3 with 5 in the centre and how much of those war chariots did each leader have to furnish? one sixth was it?

Now,

An estimated 60,000 leaders who had to provide a minimum of two heavy armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships,

Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width,

The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia.

Island is 6000 stadia squared isnt it? I'm not too good at squaring stuff...

divided by 10 stadia does equal 60,000 leaders...

I reckon again the island is a description of the people....the people are the island....get it? Our souls or whatever transfer to the actual island.

I am an island...

Edited January 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Qoais]

That would have been a "wampa", you bantha herder

Seen some of the replies Q has gotten from him, he's doing a p*** poor job of it too. I would think that if you want people to agree with you, you discuss things with them, instead of telling them they have a negative attitude. Might just be me though.

That was what set me off actually. I asked him to explain something in more detail and he said he'd already explained it and hated when people kept asking the same thing over and over. I asked over because I wasn't satisfied with his first answer and wanted clarification.

If Atlantis was in Bolivia - then the amassed armies were in Bolivia, as were the chariots that didn't exist in Bolivia because Bolivia is high in the Andes mountains and is mostly straight up and down with the exception of a few flat areas like the big plain by Lake Titicaca (sp?)

We either accept that the war WAS staged from S. America and over a million troops and horse and chariots were sent over in reed ships, (I'm starting to gag ) or we accept that the Sea Peoples were S. Americans who came over in massive waves in their reed ships to hold sway over the western end of the Med., until such times as they could build up a proper sized army in order to attack Greece and Egypt at a blow. The Sea Peoples supposedly joined ranks with the Phoenicians to attack Egypt, but in an article I was just reading, the Sea People ARE identified as being from the North.

According to the inscriptions, the Sea People first appeared in about 1208 BC, the fifth year of the reign of Pharaoh Merenptah. At this time, Egypt was facing attacks by Libya, its archenemy to the west, which was approaching the frontier accompanied by a number of allies described as "northerners." On the famous Victory Stela, found in 1896 at the Temple of Merenptah in Thebes, Merenptah declared he had overwhelmed the enemy, and provided a list of the allies of Libya, whom we now refer to collectively as the Sea People: Shardana, Lukka, Meshwesh, Teresh, Ekwesh and Shekelesh.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199503/who.were.the.sea.people..htm

It would seem that "atl" who married "lantis" didn't make it into the qualification round.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Qoais

[TheSearcher]

That was what set me off actually. I asked him to explain something in more detail and he said he'd already explained it and hated when people kept asking the same thing over and over. I asked over because I wasn't satisfied with his first answer and wanted clarification.

If Atlantis was in Bolivia - then the amassed armies were in Bolivia, as were the chariots that didn't exist in Bolivia because Bolivia is high in the Andes mountains and is mostly straight up and down with the exception of a few flat areas like the big plain by Lake Titicaca (sp?)

We either accept that the war WAS staged from S. America and over a million troops and horse and chariots were sent over in reed ships, (I'm starting to gag ) or we accept that the Sea Peoples were S. Americans who came over in massive waves in their reed ships to hold sway over the western end of the Med., until such times as they could build up a proper sized army in order to attack Greece and Egypt at a blow. The Sea Peoples supposedly joined ranks with the Phoenicians to attack Egypt, but in an article I was just reading, the Sea People ARE identified as being from the North.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199503/who.were.the.sea.people..htm

It would seem that "atl" who married "lantis" didn't make it into the qualification round.

I was about to say, weren't the Sea People from the north? That is how I have allways read it. And to be honest, it's like Cormac says, it's very unlikely any military operation, leaving no trace whatsoever of it's passage, no battlefields, no winter camps, no influence on the local traditions and uses, no offspring (as troops need r & r too, even then), no nothing.

And we're not talking about a small army either, we're talking about quite an invasion force.

[Qoais]

He's still going to have a hell of a time trying to explain why (and how) over a million Native Americans didn't leave a trace in the Western Mediterranean.

cormac

But it wouldn't have been over a million Native Americans. It would only have been however many there were that could overcome all the ports and government offices of the key cities - thereby gaining control of or holding sway over - the Western end of the Med. Then having taken control, they joined forces with the Phoenicians to attack Egypt and then the other expedition that made it to the Persian Gulf joined with the Persians to make the 1200 ships (or at least if nothing else to inspire Plato to use 1200 as the figure for the number of ships) that attacked Greece.

[cormac mac airt]

I was about to say, weren't the Sea People from the north? That is how I have allways read it. And to be honest, it's like Cormac says, it's very unlikely any military operation, leaving no trace whatsoever of it's passage, no battlefields, no winter camps, no influence on the local traditions and uses, no offspring (as troops need r & r too, even then), no nothing.

And we're not talking about a small army either, we're talking about quite an invasion force.

And all this to be met by a comparable (or nearly so, I would think) force from Athens, who interestingly enough also shows no evidence for having a support structure for a million plus warriors.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Adding on to post #861

Here is us:

First of all, he took away one part of the whole [1], and then he separated a second part which was double the first [2], and then he took away a third part which was half as much again as the second and three times as much as the first [3], and then he took a fourth part which was twice as much as the second [4]

The original pattern...?

and here how we could get the double pattern:

Now when the Creator had framed the soul according to his will, he formed within her the corporeal universe, and brought the two together, and united them centre to centre

Here's the rest in case anybody (dunno who???) might be interested in looking at the numbers some more..

and a fifth part which was three times the third [9], and a sixth part which was eight times the first [8], and a seventh part which was twenty-seven times the first [27]. After this he filled up the double intervals [i.e. between 1, 2, 4, 8] and the triple [i.e. between 1, 3, 9, 27] cutting off yet other portions from the mixture and placing them in the intervals, so that in each interval there were two kinds of means, the one exceeding and exceeded by equal parts of its extremes [as for example 1, 4/3, 2, in which the mean 4/3 is one-third of 1 more than 1, and one-third of 2 less than 2], the other being that kind of mean which exceeds and is exceeded by an equal number. Where there were intervals of 3/2 and of 4/3 and of 9/8, made by the connecting terms in the former intervals, he filled up all the intervals of 4/3 with the interval of 9/8, leaving a fraction over; and the interval which this fraction expressed was in the ratio of 256 to 243. And thus the whole mixture out of which he cut these portions was all exhausted by him. This entire compound he divided lengthways into two parts, which he joined to one another at the centre like the letter X, and bent them into a circular form, connecting them with themselves and each other at the point opposite to their original meeting-point; and, comprehending them in a uniform revolution upon the same axis, he made the one the outer and the other the inner circle. Now the motion of the outer circle he called the motion of the same, and the motion of the inner circle the motion of the other or diverse. The motion of the same he carried round by the side to the right, and the motion of the diverse diagonally to the left. And he gave dominion to the motion of the same and like, for that he left single and undivided; but the inner motion he divided in six places and made seven unequal circles having their intervals in ratios of two-and three, three of each, and bade the orbits proceed in a direction opposite to one another; and three [sun, Mercury, Venus] he made to move with equal swiftness, and the remaining four [Moon, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter] to move with unequal swiftness to the three and to one another, but in due proportion.

It sounds almost like a Cretan Labyrinth to me, which of course represents us finding ourselves and all the meaning involved in a labyrinth...have you ever drawn one, I can, I learnt to draw them. There is a trick to it, it's not as simple as it seems, I even drew not only the complete island to match the scale of Plato as well as the centre island again so as to overlay it onto the labyrinth pictures I drew and it can work. I can sail a ship through the labyrinth nearly identical to sailing one through the rings and under the bridge openings. I am absolutely dedicated to this quest in case anyone needs reminding.

[Qoais]

And all this to be met by a comparable (or nearly so, I would think) force from Athens, who interestingly enough also shows no evidence for having a support structure for a million plus warriors.

cormac

Not even by 1200 bc? They were pretty good at sailing by that time weren't they, and Triremes as well by then? Maybe it was like the 300 Spartans holding off the Persians. A wee small number holding off and defeating the bigger army.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Qoais

[Qoais]

Adding on to post #861

Here is us:

First of all, he took away one part of the whole [1], and then he separated a second part which was double the first [2], and then he took away a third part which was half as much again as the second and three times as much as the first [3], and then he took a fourth part which was twice as much as the second [4]

The original pattern...?

and here how we could get the double pattern:

Now when the Creator had framed the soul according to his will, he formed within her the corporeal universe, and brought the two together, and united them centre to centre

Here's the rest in case anybody (dunno who???) might be interested in looking at the numbers some more..

and a fifth part which was three times the third [9], and a sixth part which was eight times the first [8], and a seventh part which was twenty-seven times the first [27]. After this he filled up the double intervals [i.e. between 1, 2, 4, 8] and the triple [i.e. between 1, 3, 9, 27] cutting off yet other portions from the mixture and placing them in the intervals, so that in each interval there were two kinds of means, the one exceeding and exceeded by equal parts of its extremes [as for example 1, 4/3, 2, in which the mean 4/3 is one-third of 1 more than 1, and one-third of 2 less than 2], the other being that kind of mean which exceeds and is exceeded by an equal number. Where there were intervals of 3/2 and of 4/3 and of 9/8, made by the connecting terms in the former intervals, he filled up all the intervals of 4/3 with the interval of 9/8, leaving a fraction over; and the interval which this fraction expressed was in the ratio of 256 to 243. And thus the whole mixture out of which he cut these portions was all exhausted by him. This entire compound he divided lengthways into two parts, which he joined to one another at the centre like the letter X, and bent them into a circular form, connecting them with themselves and each other at the point opposite to their original meeting-point; and, comprehending them in a uniform revolution upon the same axis, he made the one the outer and the other the inner circle. Now the motion of the outer circle he called the motion of the same, and the motion of the inner circle the motion of the other or diverse. The motion of the same he carried round by the side to the right, and the motion of the diverse diagonally to the left. And he gave dominion to the motion of the same and like, for that he left single and undivided; but the inner motion he divided in six places and made seven unequal circles having their intervals in ratios of two-and three, three of each, and bade the orbits proceed in a direction opposite to one another; and three [sun, Mercury, Venus] he made to move with equal swiftness, and the remaining four [Moon, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter] to move with unequal swiftness to the three and to one another, but in due proportion.

It sounds almost like a Cretan Labyrinth to me, which of course represents us finding ourselves and all the meaning involved in a labyrinth...have you ever drawn one, I can, I learnt to draw them. There is a trick to it, it's not as simple as it seems, I even drew not only the complete island to match the scale of Plato as well as the centre island again so as to overlay it onto the labyrinth pictures I drew and it can work. I can sail a ship through the labyrinth nearly identical to sailing one through the rings and under the bridge openings. I am absolutely dedicated to this quest in case anyone needs reminding.

Not that I understand a word of the above, but I do remember reading recently about how he described the heavens or something round within another something round, and they communicated between themselves these two round things, which made me thing of the circles of Atlantis. Maybe Plato thought the circle was the perfect shape, so made Atlantis round as well.

[cormac mac airt]

But it wouldn't have been over a million Native Americans. It would only have been however many there were that could overcome all the ports and government offices of the key cities - thereby gaining control of or holding sway over - the Western end of the Med. Then having taken control, they joined forces with the Phoenicians to attack Egypt and then the other expedition that made it to the Persian Gulf joined with the Persians to make the 1200 ships (or at least if nothing else to inspire Plato to use 1200 as the figure for the number of ships) that attacked Greece.

And what ports/government offices of what key cities during the 2nd millenium BC would you be referring to? How and why would they have joined forces with the Phoenicians (or even the Persians) when there is no common linguistic or cultural connection between those groups? Why wouldn't the Egyptians, who were famous for portraying peoples of many lands, not have left anything to describe such a distinctive peoples? Why is there no cultural or genetic evidence that Native Americans came into contact with Egyptians, Greeks, Phoenicians or Persians?

cormac

[TheSearcher]

And what ports/government offices of what key cities during the 2nd millenium BC would you be referring to? How and why would they have joined forces with the Phoenicians (or even the Persians) when there is no common linguistic or cultural connection between those groups? Why wouldn't the Egyptians, who were famous for portraying peoples of many lands, not have left anything to describe such a distinctive peoples? Why is there no cultural or genetic evidence that Native Americans came into contact with Egyptians, Greeks, Phoenicians or Persians?

cormac

Which is the entire point, there would have been some evidence or trace of some kind. At present what do we have? Nothing at all, that would even point in that direction. And this would have been the case, even if it only was a small force, after all the 300 Spartans had enough impact. Although to be correct I would have to say 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and perhaps a few hundred others.

Edit :

And I forgot 1,000 Phocians, King Leonidas I stationed in the heights above the pass of Thermopylae, to prevent being outflanked via some mountain track.

Edited January 6, 2010 by TheSearcher

[cormac mac airt]

Not even by 1200 bc? They were pretty good at sailing by that time weren't they, and Triremes as well by then? Maybe it was like the 300 Spartans holding off the Persians. A wee small number holding off and defeating the bigger army.

It would take a lot more than just sailing to develope a support structure for 1 Million+ people. And unlike Egypt, Greece was a bunch of city-states, many of whom couldn't tolerate each other most of the time.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I actually meant 6000 times 10 stadia each gets 60,000, obviously 6000 divided by 10 does not get 60,000.

Q, I'm not real sure about this but I can see how it could fit if worked on enough, it was the Earth was a round globe as if made with a lathe and the the city of Atlantis where he carved it as like with a lathe - both the Earth and the island seem to be made the same and the island and the people have similarities in numbers.

[Qoais]

Mr. Allen is getting ticked with me again.

Indeed, How could Sir Francis Bacon possible write in such detail about the recently discovered South America and its origin as Atlantis? How could he possibly know the people were cut off by a great inundation and descended from the high mountains to the lower levels etc, or that they supposedly sent out two great fleets separated by the space of 10 years?

Well, my estimation is that since Sir Francis Bacon was a member of the English court he would have had an opportunity to meet Sarmiento de Gamboa who was a Spanish sea captain, geographer and classical scholar who was captured by a ship belonging to Sir Walter Raleigh and presented at the English Court.

Sarmiento de Gamboa was especially commissioned by the viceroy of Peru to inquire into the true history of the Incas, and interviewed all the Inca nobility and chieftains in the entire conrty, with Spanish notaries as witnesses and wrote up his findings in a book called “the History of the Incas”.

In this book, Sarmiento de Gamboa is of the opinion that what we call South America was Atlantis, that Plato used lunar years in his calculation of the date which Sarmiento de Gamboa estimated as 1320BC and he also tells the tale of Viracocha and the five pairs of twin sons.

His book was sent to Philip II of Spain but was deliberately put to one side and LOST in a library for around 300 years.

Obviously after Atlantis sunk, people went back there to have a look and brought details to Egypt otherwise there would be no account of it.

The Sea Peoles who attacked Egypt attacked initially from islands in the Mediterranean which were their bases. Crete for example is to the NORTH of Egypt and just like Libya would be part of the alliance Plato called Atlantis. They are also said to have come from “Islands in the midst of the sea”. It is not known for certain where the actually came from and is considered a controversial subject.

If an expedition made its way to the Persian Gulf, it was not to fight with the Persians but to join them as allies in the Trojan War against the Greeks, such as the allied nations which are said to have joined King Memnon.

Again, I don’t know why you expect people writing in the sixteenth century to have absolutely perfect every single detail about people and events that happened thousands of years before and which were handed down by oral traditions. Sorry I don’t know the captains’ names or what colours their eyes were!

[Black Hound]

Ok, I've held my peace for just so long, simply put, not based on imperical evidence but on rumor and or myth, or suposition(?) the place NEVER existed.Mind made up.

[The Puzzler]

in other readings more schooled in mythology it would refer to golden grain,[13] or to the sun.

or

It was a covering for a cult image of Zeus in the form of a ram.

1. Robert Graves (1944/1945), The Golden Fleece/Hercules, My Shipmate, New York: Grosset & Dunlap

From Herodotus:All those, then, who have set up a shrine to Theban Zeus or are of the Theban district, keep away from sheep and sacrifice goats, because indeed not the same gods do all Egyptians alike reverence, except for Isis and Osiris, and it’s he whom they say is Dionysus; them all alike reverence. But all those who have acquired a shrine to Mendes or are of the Mendesian district, keep away from sheep, say this law was laid down for them on account of this, that Heracles wished at all events to see Zeus and he refused to be seen by him and finally, when Heracles was persistent, Zeus contrived this: after completely flaying a ram, he held before himself its head, having cut it off the ram, and having put on its fleece, thus displayed himself to him. Because of that, the Egyptians make Zeus’ image ram-faced and following the Egyptians the Ammonians, since they are colonists of the Egyptians and the Ethiopians and customarily use a language between the both of theirs. And, so far as it seems to me, also as for their own name, the Ammonians gave themselves their appellation after this god, in that the Egyptians call Zeus Amoun. So the Thebans usually sacrifice no rams, but they are sacred to them on account of the above. However, one day a year, during Zeus’ festival, after chopping up and flaying entirely one ram in the same fashion, they dress up Zeus’ image and thereafter bring another image, Heracles’, to it. Having done that, all those concerned with the shrine beat themselves for the ram and thereafter bury it in a sacred burial-place.

That is the Egyptian Heracles, the immortal one, not the hero one.

Phrixus then sacrificed the ram to Poseidon[8] and settled in the house of Aietes, son of Helios the sun-Titan, and lived to a ripe old age. He hung the Golden Fleece reserved from the sacrifice on an oak in a grove sacred to Ares, where it was guarded by a dragon. There it remained until taken by Jason. The ram became the constellation Aries.

#8 is explained as:

In essence this act returned the ram to the god,

So, Poseidon is seen as the father of the Ram that produced the Golden Fleece.

Reminds me of Troy too since Apollo is their God and he is the sun God in that role.

Seems in many myths the Greeks are the ones doing the invading...I always feel sorry for Troy.