Atlantis

[Arbitran]

Yes, I remember the post about that preposition. Aquatus pointed out that in the Greek language it doesn't need to be used, in the way it does in English. In fact, it's my understanding that for many languages the same is true. I know it is in ancient Egyptian. The genitive does not necessarily have to employ "of." Two words set side by side can express the same relationship just by their context.

My point is that Arbitran is probably trying to make the original Greek seem more esoteric than it really is. Was. Whatever. Such extreme points are not made about other Greek originals (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, et al), so why is Plato supposed to be an exception? It's my understanding Plato wrote and spoke in a very educated form of Greek.

And I learned something new. I wasn't familiar with the term "Katharevousa." I had to look it up.

I do not suggest that the language of Plato is/was particularly esoteric. I have simply not encountered another poster here who can read it, and was attempting to explain certain concepts which I had seen were understood quite poorly here.

[The Puzzler]

The name "Atlanteans" was also given by the Greeks to the Phoenician colonies along the Barbary Coast of North Africa (i.e. around Mount Atlas). Diodorus Siculus describes their Titan-mythology and wars with the Libyan Amazones. Plato may have the same nation in mind, since he names the second Atlantian king Gadeiros after a famous Phoenician colony near the Straits of Gibraltar.

Carthage does appear to have been set out like the centre rings of Atlantis.

Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :

"He [solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks."

Plutarch, Life of Solon 32. 1 :

"Plato, ambitious to elaborate and adorn the subject of the lost Atlantis, as if it were the soil of a fair estate unoccupied, but appropriately his by virtue of some kinship with Solon, began the work by laying out great porches, enclosures, and courtyards, such as no story, tale, or poesy ever had before. But he was late in beginning, and ended his life before his work. Therefore the greater our delight in what he actually wrote, the greater is our distress in view of what he left undone. For as the Olympieion in the city of Athens, so the tale of the lost Atlantis in the wisdom of Plato is the only one among many beautiful works to remain unfinished."

Other ancient writers, such as Diodorus Siculus, who mention "Atlantis" or the "Atlanteans" are inevitably referring to the native tribes and Phoenician colonies of North-West Africa, in the vicinity of the Atlas mountain range. Some Greek and Roman writers describe this continental region as the largest of the "islands".

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 56. 1 - 57. 8 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :

"But since we have made mention of the Atlantioi (Atlantians) [i.e. their war with the Amazons, see section which follows], we believe that it will not be inappropriate in this place to recount what their myths relate about the genesis of the gods, in view of the fact that it does not differ greatly from the myths of the Greeks. Now the Atlantians, dwelling as they do in the regions on the edge of Okeanos (the Ocean) and inhabiting a fertile territory, are reputed far to excel their neighbours in reverence toward the gods and the humanity they showed in their dealings with strangers, and the gods, they say, were born among them. And their account, they maintain, is in agreement with that of the most renowned of the Greek poets [Homer, Iliad 14.200] when he represents Hera as saying: ‘For I go to see the ends of the bountiful earth, Okeanos source of the gods and Tethys divine their mother.’

This is the account given in their myth: Their first king was Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven), and he gathered the human beings, who dwelt in scattered habitations, within the shelter of a walled city and caused his subjects to cease from their lawless ways and their bestial manner of living, discovering for them the uses of cultivated fruits, how to store them up, and not a few other things which are of benefit to man; and he also subdued the larger part of the inhabited earth, in particular the regions to the west and the north. And since he was a careful observer of the stars he foretold many things which would take place throughout the world; and for the common people he introduced the year on the basis of the movement of the sun and the months on that of the moon, and instructed them in the seasons which recur year after year.

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 60. 1 - 61. 6 :

[After a digression into Phrygian mythology following the passage above, Diodorus continues with his Atlantian story :]

"After the death of Hyperion, the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Ouranos, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Kronos. Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of Okeanos (the Ocean), and he not only gave the name of Atlantioi (Atlantians) to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas. They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere; and it was for this reason that the idea was held that he entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere.

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 53. 1 - 55. 3 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :

"We are told, namely, that there was once in the western parts of Libya, on the bounds of the inhabited world, a race which was ruled by women and followed a manner of life unlike that which prevails among us. For it was the custom among them that the women should practise the arts of war and be required to serve in the army for a fixed period, during which time they maintained their virginity . . .

As mythology relates, their home was on an island which, because it was in the west, was called Hespera (Evening), and it lay in the marsh Tritonis. This marsh was near Okeanos (Ocean) which surrounds the earth and received its name from a certain river Triton which emptied into it; and this marsh was also near Aithiopia and that mountain by the shore of Okeanos which is the highest of those in the vicinity and impinges upon Okeanos and is called by the Greeks Atlas. The island mentioned above was of great size and full of fruit-bearing trees of every kind, from which the natives secured their food . . .

Pliny the Elder, Natural History 6. 199 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.) :

"There is reported to be another island off [African] Mount Atlas [in the Atlantic], itself also called Atlantis, from which a two days’ voyage along the coast reaches the desert district in the neighbourhood of the Western Aethiopes [i.e. black Africans] and the cape mentioned above as the Horn of the West, the point at which the coastline begins to curve westward in the direction of the Atlantic."

http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html

Remember island does not have to be island as such - a peninsula will do. Note the top of Africa on a map - at old Carthage (Tunisia) it becomes a big rectangular 'island' until it reaches the Western end of the African continent. This is where I think Atlantis is. Maybe even along to Syrtis, the shoals they couldn't sail on anymore...

It's in the right position - Atlanteans actually live there - it's described as an 'island' - Mt Atlas is there and we know of Libyans in Greek myths as the place of Poseidon. There is evidence of earthquakes and particularly the area from the Gulf of Syrtes (that word is Greek for shoals) to Malta, where cart ruts go off the edge of the cliffs, this area is very seismic and if we listen to what Plutarch says - "Plato, ambitious to elaborate and adorn the subject of the lost Atlantis"...

One thing I do know, Atlantis is NOT South America.

Edited March 27, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Arbitran]

One thing I do know, Atlantis is NOT South America.

And how exactly do you "know" this? Have you studied South America? At the very least, your theory can only lay claim to a limited number of Plato's details about Atlantis. South America is a to-the-letter match.

[questionmark]

And how exactly do you "know" this? Have you studied South America? At the very least, your theory can only lay claim to a limited number of Plato's details about Atlantis. South America is a to-the-letter match.

Are you, besides incapable of providing sources, incapable of reading? Above you have a well sourced example of how arguments are to be made! If you would have read it instead of gushing a line of bull you would be p[erfectly capable of seeing why Puzz is making a valid argument against South America (I know, I know, seldom happens that I defend her, but in this case it is needed).

[Sensible Logic]

And how exactly do you "know" this? Have you studied South America? At the very least, your theory can only lay claim to a limited number of Plato's details about Atlantis. South America is a to-the-letter match.

Even using a limited number of details it is not a to-the-letter match. You indicate that a plain in South America is a match for Plato's description yet in a previous post you said the capitol city was on an island that sank. Plato puts that plain on the same island with the capitol city so they would have both sunk thus the plain would not be anywhere on the South American continent.

[Arbitran]

Are you, besides incapable of providing sources, incapable of reading? Above you have a well sourced example of how arguments are to be made! If you would have read it instead of gushing a line of bull you would be p[erfectly capable of seeing why Puzz is making a valid argument against South America (I know, I know, seldom happens that I defend her, but in this case it is needed).

I merely asked a reasonable series of questions pertinent to the discussion. And yes, of course I am capable of reading; I have read each of the above-listed sources in my Atlantis research.

[The Puzzler]

And how exactly do you "know" this? Have you studied South America? At the very least, your theory can only lay claim to a limited number of Plato's details about Atlantis. South America is a to-the-letter match.

No, I havent studied South America that much, I study Atlantis - ask this whole forum, they know I have for years.

[Arbitran]

Even using a limited number of details it is not a to-the-letter match. You indicate that a plain in South America is a match for Plato's description yet in a previous post you said the capitol city was on an island that sank. Plato puts that plain on the same island with the capitol city so they would have both sunk thus the plain would not be anywhere on the South American continent.

You have misunderstood. The continent of Atlantis was of course the possessor of the plain; the island capital was located within that plain. The island was flooded--the continent was not.

And yes, South America remains a to-the-letter match for Plato's description of Atlantis. No other place on Earth that I know of is. Why do you all continued to insist that I am exaggerating in this regard, despite the fact I have repeatedly clarified on the point?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Arbitran

[The Puzzler]

And how exactly do you "know" this? Have you studied South America? At the very least, your theory can only lay claim to a limited number of Plato's details about Atlantis. South America is a to-the-letter match.

I believe my theory can outmatch yours based on Plato's overall whole story and meaning, not just the geographical description, of which you have placed hundreds of miles away from where he has it.

Thanks questionmark.

Edited March 27, 2012 by The Puzzler

[questionmark]

I merely asked a reasonable series of questions pertinent to the discussion. And yes, of course I am capable of reading; I have read each of the above-listed sources in my Atlantis research.

What part of her, pretty accurate sources, don't you get?

It is not a question whether she has studied South America but that we have historic sources that exclude South America. South America is totally irrelevant, and was even more in Plato's time as the durn place was not even known. It was beleived that a little yonder the pillars of Herakles there was a Titan holding the Earth up. And that is relevant to a discussion about ancient Greek literature.

[Arbitran]

No, I havent studied South America that much, I study Atlantis - ask this whole forum, they know I have for years.

And I applaud you for studying Atlantis in this way--it is not a well-respected position to take. I must insist however, that when compared, the description of Atlantis and the continent of South America are identical in every detail.

[cormac mac airt]

Even using a limited number of details it is not a to-the-letter match. You indicate that a plain in South America is a match for Plato's description yet in a previous post you said the capitol city was on an island that sank. Plato puts that plain on the same island with the capitol city so they would have both sunk thus the plain would not be anywhere on the South American continent.

In support of what Sensible Logic has stated, here is the reference (per Critias):

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace

nearly in the words of Solon, and now I must endeavour to represent

the nature and arrangement of the rest of the land. The whole

country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side

of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city

was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended

towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape,

extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the

centre inland it was two thousand stadia. This part of the island

looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north. The

surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and

beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many

wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows

supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of

various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.

The plain is located ON the island of Atlantis.

cormac

Edited March 27, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

And I applaud you for studying Atlantis in this way--it is not a well-respected position to take. I must insist however, that when compared, the description of Atlantis and the continent of South America are identical in every detail.

Thanks, no, it's not. That's fair enough so I will rephrase "I am convinced it is not South America".

[Arbitran]

Έχω την ξεχωριστή αίσθηση, αγαπητέ μου Thimaeus, ότι κάποιος προσπαθεί να λάβει ένα έργο της φαντασίας και τη μετατρέπουν σε ένα μάτσο μάλακοιές.

You needn't be lewd. You have yet to challenge my thesis in any serious way.

[The Puzzler]

darkbreed nearly convinced me once, but it just didn't gel. There is alot of fair plains around with low hills, Plato tells us about another one, not in South America either...

Ath. Ilium was built, when they descended from the mountain, in a large and fair plain, on a sort of low hill, watered by many rivers descending from Ida.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/laws.3.iii.html

[Sensible Logic]

You have misunderstood. The continent of Atlantis was of course the possessor of the plain; the island capital was located within that plain. The island was flooded--the continent was not.

And yes, South America remains a to-the-letter match for Plato's description of Atlantis. No other place on Earth that I know of is. Why do you all continued to insist that I am exaggerating in this regard, despite the fact I have repeatedly clarified on the point?

Again, not to the letter. The description by Plato puts the capitol city, about 7 miles from the sea. There is no way that an island in the plain you have selected matches the distance indicated.

[Arbitran]

In support of what Sensible Logic has stated, here is the reference (per Critias):

The plain is located ON the island of Atlantis.

cormac

Have you read it in Greek? The distinction between the continent (ήπειρος) and the island (νήσους) is explicit.

[Arbitran]

Again, not to the letter. The description by Plato puts the capitol city, about 7 miles from the sea. There is no way that an island in the plain you have selected matches the distance indicated.

Again you are mistaken. The plain which I have previously indicated lies almost exactly seven miles from the sea--and the capital as well.

[Arbitran]

Thanks, no, it's not. That's fair enough so I will rephrase "I am convinced it is not South America".

What convinces you that it is not South America?

[The Puzzler]

What convinces you that it is not South America?

Years of research and studying Plato's other works. Atlantis is at the Pillars of Heracles and overlooks modern Cadiz, Mt Atlas is there and many myths have connections to this area and Libya. All those other sources point to a West African area as well. Poseidon is Libyan, I've never heard of him being in South America quite frankly. I could go on and make a tome of a post but I won't - I simply do not think it works in any way.

[Arbitran]

Years of research and studying Plato's other works. Atlantis is at the Pillars of Heracles and overlooks modern Cadiz, Mt Atlas is there and many myths have connections to this area and Libya. All those other sources point to a West African area as well. Poseidon is Libyan, I've never heard of him being in South America quite frankly. I could go on and make a tome of a post but I won't - I simply do not think it works in any way.

And your research is admirable. However, I must say that I disagree. Atlantis is clearly said to have been beyond the Pillars of Heracles. Not only this, but I am quite sure that there have never been any elephants in that region.

[The Puzzler]

The reconstruction of Carthage shown in these two pictures (above and below) was made by L. Aucler, an archeologist who devoted his life to the study of Carthaginian civilization. By means of painstaking research among the few remaining traces of the ancient city, and with the help of descriptions found in the works of classical writers (especially the Roman historian, Appian) he was able to reconstruct the probable appearance of the ancient city.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia_of_history/C/Carthage.html

To me, the idea of Atlantis being part of the North African Libyan/Phoenician empire makes alot of sense. Anyway, I'll leave you to it, not much more I can add here.

[The Puzzler]

And your research is admirable. However, I must say that I disagree. Atlantis is clearly said to have been beyond the Pillars of Heracles. Not only this, but I am quite sure that there have never been any elephants in that region.

I'm pretty sure Hannibal rode elephants into Europe and Plato saw the downfall of the Phoenicians coming a mile away...

Ciao for now, things to do.

[Arbitran]

The reconstruction of Carthage shown in these two pictures (above and below) was made by L. Aucler, an archeologist who devoted his life to the study of Carthaginian civilization. By means of painstaking research among the few remaining traces of the ancient city, and with the help of descriptions found in the works of classical writers (especially the Roman historian, Appian) he was able to reconstruct the probable appearance of the ancient city.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia_of_history/C/Carthage.html

To me, the idea of Atlantis being part of the North African Libyan/Phoenician empire makes alot of sense. Anyway, I'll leave you to it, not much more I can add here.

It seems we have reached an impasse then. I will say, I respect and admire your research and passion for Atlantis, greatly. I once had a similar theory to yours, however I now find that my research of South America has yielded the optimum comparison. We will simply agree to disagree, I think.

I'm pretty sure Hannibal rode elephants into Europe and Plato saw the downfall of the Phoenicians coming a mile away...

Ciao for now, things to do.

So be it. Just know that I do admire your passion for truth. As you say: "ciao".

[Sensible Logic]

Again you are mistaken. The plain which I have previously indicated lies almost exactly seven miles from the sea--and the capital as well.

Your posts indicate the Atlantean capitol was on an island on the South American continent and it is that island that sank. You refer to the Altiplano region as the location of the plain. The only two bodies of water on the Altiplano region that could even qualify are lake Titicaca and lake Poopo both of which are well over 100 miles from the sea.