Any Muslims? or Ex-Muslims?

[Beckys_Mom]

But they WERE NOT "bonking children! This is entirely your fantasy.

BULL........you do not know for sure what went on...I mean molesting kids sexually didjnt just start like a modern trend now days ...get real...its been going on forever...and it was not mentioned in the bible as sinful..not directly NO

[Beckys_Mom]

Marabod,

you must have not read my post carefully or fully. It is because their vaginas literally ripped into their rectum during childbirth.

I think Mara needs to get this into his head and really think about it...I dont think he understands

Their tiny little bodies couldnt handle childbirth...unreal and handle sex they dont understand it ...and I hate it when people think that these days because its outlawed ..that its only because we have moved on....its not like that for kids are still beinf moletsed...

The pain a child would have went through during sex is no differnt than the pain it would be today...its SICK

Edited October 25, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

PI, neither wiki is the most reliable source in the world, not I am in possession of some credible biography of Muhammad; but it is known that Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bekr, his closest friend, general and spiritual successor, who is buried next to him. What this means, is that this marriage was the initiative of the PARENTS, who insisted on her becoming Muhammad's wife - and this means that their relationships were at least technically possible. Moreover various sources, assembled by Manly Hall in his Encyclopaedia, say that not only he wasnt anyhow sex-addicted, but Aisha was for him first of all a close friend, and he was often helping her to do work in the house. She later said that he was himself repairing his clothes and shoes. All their life together Aisha (at least according to Sir William Muir, "Life of Muhammad) considered him rather her father than a husband, they were remaining very close to each other, and after he was poisoned and started to feel sick, she was helping him to walk, and at the end he died with his head lifted by her hands (she was already over 20 years old). Thomas Karleil describes him as a very modest person, who was living the second half of his life almost as a monk, eating bread and water mostly and mostly praying and talking to "Gabriel". To me it seems he was no more paedophile than Jesus was a homosexual, despite of the latter we can find evidence even in the Gospels.

I dont know where you get your info from but its sure has fooled you

Muhammad was looking to have sex with a 6yr old and had to wait till she was just 9...its a fact and not just wiki says so

[Beckys_Mom]

This is what the legend says. I am not going to deny anything, as this is not my vested interest, to study in details Muhammad's sexual life, however I just want to note here, that the legends are not "records" and are mostly based on hearsay. I find it highly unlikely that their sexual intercourse was committed in the presence of the witnesses, and this means the message about it is only based on the words, said... There are questions here, arising from these legends and the ages mentioned in them. Why would Muhammad report his sexual life to public? What could be the reason of such announcement made by him? To whom was it addressed? He was not a teenager to brawl about his sexual victories!

No ofence but sounds to me like you are going all out to defend him for looking sex with a lil 6 yr old girl..all because you feel there might NOT have been witnessess...

I personally couldnt defend anyone that does this to kids

These following sites tell how he had sex with her at the early age of just 9...some say 8

http://www.islam-watch.org/AliSina/AishaChildWife.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-muhammad-sinless-4-wives.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

Lots more where they come from Mara...

he was 54 and she was just 9 and he wanted sex with her...apparently Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. HOWEVER, after reading brother Sam Shamoun’s articles (1, 2), I realized that the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses!

Edited October 25, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[ChloeB]

And yes, you could say this child sex is all legend, but what isn't legend?

[MARAB0D]

Yeah, I don't know, Mara, hardly seems like something they'd want to advertise, but that's where it came from so I was wanting to show you. Hey, you mentioned Manly Hall...it's not Secret Teaching of All Ages is it? I have that book, I could go pull it out and look at what you're looking at if it is.

Mine is in Russian from early 90s, its called "Encyclopaedia of Masonic, Esoteric and Qabbalistic Sciences".

[exeller]

The one thing that really disturbs me about Islam is that it is still growing. And people who try to convert from islam are threatened with death.

It is really sad that there are over one billion people on this earth who believe that God would reveal himself through some blood-thirsty, child molesting, women objectifying psychopath from the desert instead of communicating with us directly.

[momentarylapseofreason]

But they WERE NOT "bonking children! This is entirely your fantasy. The marriage did not mean immediate sex, when it was happening at 11, it was only a statement of securing the female. You can read tons of ancient literature, and everywhere the age of 15 to 17 for women is mentioned as the start of physical sexual life, say helen of Troy was 17, when she was abducted by Paris, and she was already MARRIED. If some girl individually was seen as ready it could be earlier, but it was not a norm at all. The same time "marriage" could happen in any age, at 3 too, specially in the societies allowing for Polygamy. You (and me) know NOTHING about Muhammad's Aisha - maybe in her 13 she was 6 foot tall and 150 pounds in weight, how do we know? It was a decision of her PARENTS that she was able to get married at 11. They were not going by age at all, but by the degree of development. Ovid tells about Latin giving his young daughter Lavinia to Aeneus - but she already HAD a husband since she was a toddler, the pre-arranged husband, with whom the war started then, as he claimed his rights on her. The people did not see the young wives as sexual toys, a wife was taken for procreation, not for rape, there was enough adult women around for just sex. You somehow forget that rape in all forms was punishable, at least within historical period we know, and if the early sex really hurt some child, as you say, one could expect a full scale vendetta from her relatives. Just give me example of such case, which was tolerated! You know that Aisha was staying with Muhammad till his death and then continued explaining his teaching to the other relatives, she lived a long life by the way. You just create a world of fantasy and then debunk it, meanwhile technically all those "underaged" wives managed to establish great nations, means they indeed were giving birth, and successfully, to more than one child - which is impossible if your vision is correct. What Muhammad did was not an exception, but a RULE.

Oh please Marabod,

Procreation involves sex, does it not? If it's with a child or against her desire it is rape!! It just had another label that is all.

Muhammad consumated the marriage at 9. She was a child, menstruating or not any gynecologist or psychiatrist will tell you that is still a child. Until that time he m********d (self-pleasure) himself on her. It's absolutely disgusting. If it was for procreation why did he m******** on her? This is graphic and disgusting but so read the texts and they are available to anyone to view.

Aisha will not go against a man she thinks is connected in a special way to god. She had been thoroughly brainwashed into accepting her fate because supposedly it was god's will.

Aisha was not a teen ,she was a child playing with her dolls, not sex toys.

Edited October 25, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[MARAB0D]

I dont know where you get your info from but its sure has fooled you

Muhammad was looking to have sex with a 6yr old and had to wait till she was just 9...its a fact and not just wiki says so

As our dear LTR would say, this is only your personal opinion... based on a legend. Do you also believe that Jesus was walking over waters? That Mary was virgin?

I gave a LOGICAL explanation, based on the balance of power in early Islam, on the essential needs of his closest ally and main supporter, Aisha's father and on the customs of their time. If Muhammad did not "touch" Aisha, then the marriage was incomplete and he could "send her away" at any second - which was making the status of her father uncertain, and depending on everyday events in Muhammad's family; meanwhile he was risking his life, promoting Muhammad's status as a prophet and was certainly demanding for some more solid proof of his relation to the prophet. 54 Those day was (as it was already mentioned) the end of the second(!) average life span, so her father was also worried that the prophet may die before Aisha would bear a child... As Momentary mentioned, Aisha had no children from the prophet - so the only serious proof of their sexual life is... missing! I can foresee, that now after this you may proclaim him not only a paedophile but also an oral sex addict, but there is no confirmation to this even in the legends... In short, I put my logic against Wikipedia with no fear of being embarrassed, as all what Wiki and other sites have is only ... a legend!

[MARAB0D]

Here we are, a good info for the "early sex" theory. The below is the explanation of political significance of this late marriage and its impact on modern Islam.

The division between Shia and Sunni dates back to the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and the question of who was to take over the leadership of the Muslim nation. Sunni Muslims agree with the position taken by many of the Prophet's companions, that the new leader should be elected from among those capable of the job. This is what was done, and the Prophet Muhammad's close friend and advisor, Abu Bakr, became the first Caliph of the Islamic nation. The word "Sunni" in Arabic comes from a word meaning "one who follows the traditions of the Prophet."

On the other hand, some Muslims share the belief that leadership should have stayed within the Prophet's own family, among those specifically appointed by him, or among Imams appointed by God Himself.The Shia Muslims believe that following the Prophet Muhammad's death, leadership should have passed directly to his cousin/son-in-law, Ali. Throughout history, Shia Muslims have not recognized the authority of elected Muslim leaders, choosing instead to follow a line of Imams which they believe have been appointed by the Prophet Muhammad or God Himself.

http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

Aisha's father was more important for Muhammad than his own blood relatives, because they even were not around him in the years of his hardships, while Abu Bekr was his alter ego. hence the need in dynastical marriage, and perhaps in the statement of sex to make this strange marriage valid. And still, as soon as he dies, there was a schism! Without this "sex statement" Abu Bekr would be simply slayed by Muhammad's family, and perhaps Abu bekr was the first who knew this upfront - so he extorted such statement as it saved his life.

[momentarylapseofreason]

As our dear LTR would say, this is only your personal opinion... based on a legend. Do you also believe that Jesus was walking over waters? That Mary was virgin?

I gave a LOGICAL explanation, based on the balance of power in early Islam, on the essential needs of his closest ally and main supporter, Aisha's father and on the customs of their time. If Muhammad did not "touch" Aisha, then the marriage was incomplete and he could "send her away" at any second - which was making the status of her father uncertain, and depending on everyday events in Muhammad's family; meanwhile he was risking his life, promoting Muhammad's status as a prophet and was certainly demanding for some more solid proof of his relation to the prophet. 54 Those day was (as it was already mentioned) the end of the second(!) average life span, so her father was also worried that the prophet may die before Aisha would bear a child... As Momentary mentioned, Aisha had no children from the prophet - so the only serious proof of their sexual life is... missing! I can foresee, that now after this you may proclaim him not only a paedophile but also an oral sex addict, but there is no confirmation to this even in the legends... In short, I put my logic against Wikipedia with no fear of being embarrassed, as all what Wiki and other sites have is only ... a legend!

Actually Aisha relayed the dirty little stories herself-like how he couldn't keep his fingers off her privates when she was menstruating.

Well Marabod, I hope others see it as you do.

That this book is nothing but a pornographic legend. he was old and ill, maybe he couldn't even consumate the marriage anymore, maybe that's why he resorted to fingering her up.

I wish everyone would look at these stories this way

That would be fantastic-it would end alot of suffering and fear

Edited October 25, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[MARAB0D]

LOL, I can imagine the critical conversation! Abu Bekr comes to Muhammad, kicks all women out and locks the doors: "Mate, what if you die tomorrow? These dogs, your nephews, would throw my daughter out of your house and then come to me and and make me a martyr. I fight for you, I risk for you - and this would be your last thankyou. Get your shoes on and go tell this mob that you finally violated my daughter, so I can sleep well as your official father-in-law!"

In my view this is what was happening there.

[momentarylapseofreason]

LOL, I can imagine the critical conversation! Abu Bekr comes to Muhammad, kicks all women out and locks the doors: "Mate, what if you die tomorrow? These dogs, your nephews, would throw my daughter out of your house and then come to me and and make me a martyr. I fight for you, I risk for you - and this would be your last thankyou. Get your shoes on and go tell this mob that you finally violated my daughter, so I can sleep well as your official father-in-law!"

In my view this is what was happening there.

Intersting presumption, possibly factual,also disturbing but kind of funny. It would be nice if nothing really happened to Aisha.

[MARAB0D]

Actually Aisha relayed the dirty little stories herself-like how he couldn't keep his fingers off her privates when she was menstruating.

Well Marabod, I hope others see it as you do.

That this book is nothing but a pornographic legend. he was old and ill, maybe he couldn't even consumate the marriage anymore, maybe that's why he resorted to fingering her up.

I wish everyone would look at these stories this way

That would be fantastic-it would end alot of suffering and fear

See? Fingers! Menstruating! Old husband keeping little fingers close to his own wife, who then tell this as a funny story! Of course its a rape - specially given that they were together for 14 years, and when she told this, when she was 9 years old? If he only knew of your opinion, he would've castrated himself publicly and chopped his fingers off!

[MARAB0D]

Intersting presumption, possibly factual,also disturbing but kind of funny. It would be nice if nothing really happened to Aisha.

Aisha was a POLITICAL TOOL, not a sexual toy. This is just obvious! This I say completely irrelevantly to our discussion - whether they had early sex or not, but she was someone, on whom the entire Islam was hanging!

EDIT: Looking closer to political reality of the day, Muhammad could not even afford to UPSET this Aisha, not only to rape her. If her father knew she was hurt, the entire Islam could face a complete kaput. Enough to withdraw the support, and Muhammad was finished - given the numbers of people who wanted him dead. Just plain logic cries against this paedophilia spin.

Edited October 25, 2009 by marabod

[MARAB0D]

Well, my logic goes ahead - and explains WHY modern Islam has to support this early sex legend!

Sunni Muslims have to support it because they stem from Abu Bekr, and if there was no early sex, then their founder may be proclaimed illegitimate (marriage was a fake, he was not a real relative!).

Shia Muslims cannot allow someone to say, that the Prophet could tell lies PLUS Aisha one way or another was the caretaker of Quran.

So, modern Islam has a stallmate on this issue, and in order to make early sex to look legitimate, they ADDED the rule of a man allowed to have sex with an underaged female. In fact, given the reality, this hardly was ever used too often, as the Muslims are the same people as we are, and understand the same things as we do, but the rule is still hanging around. Pretty much like that famous English law, allowing to kill any Welsh person, caught within city walls after sunset.

Edited October 25, 2009 by marabod

[momentarylapseofreason]

Aisha was a POLITICAL TOOL, not a sexual toy. This is just obvious! This I say completely irrelevantly to our discussion - whether they had early sex or not, but she was someone, on whom the entire Islam was hanging!

EDIT: Looking closer to political reality of the day, Muhammad could not even afford to UPSET this Aisha, not only to rape her. If her father knew she was hurt, the entire Islam could face a complete kaput. Enough to withdraw the support, and Muhammad was finished - given the numbers of people who wanted him dead. Just plain logic cries against this paedophilia spin.

You do not understand Islam very well.

In Islam it is noble and honorable for a woman to suffer. The more she is suffers the greater her reward will be in heaven.

You should read The Infidel by Aayan Hirsi

[MARAB0D]

You do not understand Islam very well.

In Islam it is noble and honorable for a woman to suffer. The more she is suffers the greater her reward will be in heaven.

You should read The Infidel by Aayan Hirsi

I was already explaining once, that in Islam a woman makes a sort of a "career" with age - a young woman is seen as a sexual toy; then she gets children and takes the role of Mother, rising them (at this stage the influence of the husband goes down together with his potency) - and finally she becomes old and starts to be Khanum, the Lady of the House, who can use her rolling pin on the males not less successfully than any European wife.

You are not reading "Islam", you are reading some Islamic fundamentalists, which are the same religious perverts as the our ones.

[momentarylapseofreason]

You are not reading "Islam", you are reading some Islamic fundamentalists, which are the same religious perverts as the our ones.

I'm not reading "Islamic fundementalists"-but people where pretty "fundy thinking" back then

According to the Quran-that is the message. Does everyone take it literally? No

There sure were alot of fundies in Germany then

Go ahead, keep defending Islam, and insist how great it is,there is nothing good in it for us, especially women

It has no marketing value for us, we want no part of it or in it

Whatever makes your eyes light up and heart race-it doesn't do it for us.

Edited October 25, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

Are you trying to get us to repect this ideology? Why should we or why should I? Why is it a great religion as you called it?

I'm not reading "Islamic fundementalists"-but people where pretty "fundy thinking" back then

According to the Quran-that is the message. Does everyone take it literally? No

Go ahead, keep defending Islam, and insist how great it is, there is nothing good in it for us, especially women

It has no marketing value for us, we want no part of it.

Whatever makes your eyes light up and heart race-it doesn't do it for us.

It certainly isn't enriching our lives

Edited October 25, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

dp

computer stuck my apologies

dp

[momentarylapseofreason]

?

[MARAB0D]

Are you trying to get us to repect this ideology? Why should we or why should I? Why is it a great religion as you called it?

I'm not reading "Islamic fundementalists"-but people where pretty "fundy thinking" back then

According to the Quran-that is the message. Does everyone take it literally? No

Go ahead, keep defending Islam, and insist how great it is, there is nothing good in it for us, especially women

It has no marketing value for us, we want no part of it.

Whatever makes your eyes light up and heart race-it doesn't do it for us.

It certainly isn't enriching our lives

Nothing in this world, in the past or present, deserves ungrounded rubbishing. Your reaction to Islam in general and to their prophet is so emotional that impression arises that it was in fact yourself whom Muhammad molested at the age of 6. I cannot understand this, hence I tried to explain what could have happened instead of the events, described in traditionalistic legend. I am just rationalising the legend you used, calling it "ultimate truth" - because what it says is irrelevant and does not really fit the historical environment of the time.

And even if I am defending Islam - why not? I have my reasons - the science, I get paid for working in, we learned from the Muslims, together with many other sciences, what, do I need to condemn them for teaching us? I may take emotionally when some Islamic fundy blasts himself in a cafe where I am having my lunch, but not the legend of course. And I am certainly not targeting to enrich someone's life by supporting their illusion on expense of the reality, I got used to assess any issue from all possible angles before I can make a conclusion.

[Beckys_Mom]

You do not understand Islam very well.

In Islam it is noble and honorable for a woman to suffer. The more she is suffers the greater her reward will be in heaven.

I have to agree here...Mara doesnt eem to know much on it at all....he could learn a thing or two from your posts MLOR

As for women suffering more to get rewarded...thats a big load of gip...its an excuse to hurt women more...

Edited October 25, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

Nothing in this world, in the past or present, deserves ungrounded rubbishing. Your reaction to Islam in general and to their prophet is so emotional that impression arises that it was in fact yourself whom Muhammad molested at the age of 6. I cannot understand this, hence I tried to explain what could have happened instead of the events, described in traditionalistic legend.

No mara..all you have sat here and done is...tried to make up excuses for him... you say you have tried to post what you think COULD have happened <---and you expect a number of people and I mean millions of people to think that maybe they have it all wrong??

I researched it...you google it..and you will find countless links sites that say he sure did to a lil girl...and how he made it law for any muslim man to do the same.....it is written in so many sites...

And you think we will just igore that and go on your lil huntch? .......well you did say you only wrote what COULD have happened...that sounds more like your huntches.,...one thats not washing

If you were as smart as what Sheri has tried to make you out, you would be gracious and accept that there are times when you can get things wrong...but it takes a much bigger person to do that...lets see, ball is in your court....meaning you dont have to...its up to you...

Edited October 25, 2009 by Beckys_Mom