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The Infidel Guy

Any Muslims? or Ex-Muslims?

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Pseudo Intellectual

I'm talking about the Shia and Sunna of today, not then. Both groups feel the same way about the Quran.

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momentarylapseofreason

I am not anyhow an Islam apologist, but if you consider that it was another culture, basically nomadic, and it was 7th century AD, as well as the average life expectancy was less than 30 years (data on Roman Empire censusi) then a girl of 11 years old (! not 6) taken as a wife and not violated for another few years, cannot be a basis of debunking the personality at all. Such were the customs! How old Mary was when taken pregnant by Joseph? 16?

Muhammad was interested in marrying her at the age of 3 already.

I read in a german newspaper not a tabloid and somewhere else recently, that they have found that people lived alot longer than previously thought. Is it true? Dunno

they say now they had about the same life span, except when the plague and such was around. Besides Muhammad died at age 59, some claim 65. THAT'S A GOOD AGE.

May have been the customs back then but certainly not a chosen man of god. An intelligent & compassionate god Would not pick such a misfit to spread his message. Actions, not just words, spread a message.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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MARAB0D

I'm talking about the Shia and Sunna of today, not then. Both groups feel the same way about the Quran.

Quran is a mystery, as it was for sure not written by Muhammad himself. Its text was agreed among all influential relatives of him, despite them being divided over the succession issues. Modern Shia and Sunni are the same as modern orthodox and catholics, no more, both agreeing on the same scripture. But they sure originate from those very days. If you want me to provide details, I can do it after Tuesday, as we have Labour Weekend. My MD is Iranian, half-Persian, half-Arab, so he is not sure if he is a Sunni or a Shia (in fact he is an Atheist, a nuclear plant engineer :) ), and I can ask him for explanations of the difference.

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Pseudo Intellectual

Yes, we all know the Quran is crap and contradictory. However, my point is, the Shia and Sunna of today agree that the Quran of today is the true, recited word of Allah. They don't believe that anyone's edited it or anything of the sort.

My second point is, the divide between Shia and Sunna was political, not religious. It had nothing to do with, for example, interpretations of the Quran, as many Islamic apologists say.

Edited by Pseudo Intellectual

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MARAB0D

Muhammad was interested in marrying her at the age of 3 already.

I read in a german newspaper not a tabloid and somewhere else recently, that they have found that people lived alot longer than previously thought. Is it true? Dunno

they say now they had about the same life span, except when the plague and such was around. Besides Muhammad died at age 59, some claim 65. THAT'S A GOOD AGE.

May have been the customs back then but certainly not a chosen man of god. An intelligent & compassionate god Would not pick such a misfit to spread his message. Actions, not just words, spread a message.

I do not know about German newspapers, seriously. I only know the researches published. Some lived longer, some not... They had some 50% infant mortality for example. "old" was 35 already.

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momentarylapseofreason

Disease of any kind only changes the human personality, not the perception of this human by others. It is impossible to say that USSR was a result of Lenin's brain syphilis, as there was much more people involved than Lenin alone. By the time Muhammad died (or rather was killed) Islam was accepted by many thousands and completed number of successful wars. Quran is not a book of some physical nature, while the cancer is a physical disease, we need to separate such things.

iF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BRAIN BIOLOGY/NEUROLGY OF COURSE NOT.

People are extremely gullible even today. Think how easily people were duped back then and how they still are now.

Charles Manson. He could have easily started a religion back then also. Any charismatic person that tells the people what they want to hear or are easily impressed. Manson may have started another great religion Mansonianism :w00t: !

It's not impressive when a religion becomes great through force and inciting mortal fear. That shows weakness, lack of substance and deception

Imagine what people in the past thought when they observed a seizure. It certainly looks like some type of possession and so does schizophrenia!

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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momentarylapseofreason

I do not know about German newspapers, seriously. I only know the researches published. Some lived longer, some not... They had some 50% infant mortality for example. "old" was 35 already.

It varied in different regions. I also saw this on Discovery channel or possibly History channel based on new research. Maybe I'll find it. I'm tired but argumentive as usual :wacko: Got a cure for me? LOL

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MARAB0D

iF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BRAIN BIOLOGY/NEUROLGY OF COURSE NOT.

People are extremely gullible even today. Think how easily people were duped back then and how they still are now.

Charles Manson. He could have easily started a religion back then also. Any charismatic person that tells the people what they want to hear or are easily impressed. Manson may have started another great religion Mansonianism :w00t: !

It's not impressive when a religion becomes great through force and inciting mortal fear. That shows weakness, lack of substance and deception

We should be, or at least trying to be objective. This involves us understanding that what we personally see as important may be not important for other people. Just for the sake of example, you are currently addressing a person who NEVER HEARD of Charles Manson. Does this surprise you? Upset you?

Never mind, screw Manson. What you are trying to do is to judge the historical personality from the position of MODERN moral standards. OK, Muhammad was a paedophile, is this what you want to say? But Licurgus, Plutarch, Tiberius Caesar, most probably Pilate, Tacitus etc - they also were paedophiles! Such was the lifestyle! Is it good in your view to own the slaves? I mean to be a slave-owner. How does this fall in modern moral view? Meanwhile George Washington was a slave owner - and he established USA. Would you express a disgust to USA because its founder was owning great numbers of African-American slaves? If yes, then my message did not reach the address, as I thought you were an American. If no, then why Islam may be disgusting because Muhammad married a girl, whose age by modern US legislation is seen as being below the age of consent?

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momentarylapseofreason

We should be, or at least trying to be objective. This involves us understanding that what we personally see as important may be not important for other people. Just for the sake of example, you are currently addressing a person who NEVER HEARD of Charles Manson. Does this surprise you? Upset you?

Never mind, screw Manson. What you are trying to do is to judge the historical personality from the position of MODERN moral standards. OK, Muhammad was a paedophile, is this what you want to say? But Licurgus, Plutarch, Tiberius Caesar, most probably Pilate, Tacitus etc - they also were paedophiles! Such was the lifestyle! Is it good in your view to own the slaves? I mean to be a slave-owner. How does this fall in modern moral view? Meanwhile George Washington was a slave owner - and he established USA. Would you express a disgust to USA because its founder was owning great numbers of African-American slaves? If yes, then my message did not reach the address, as I thought you were an American. If no, then why Islam may be disgusting because Muhammad married a girl, whose age by modern US legislation is seen as being below the age of consent?

So Marabod. What is it in these little girls that these men found so attractive. any ideas? You must have some idea. Why did men do this when there were mature women around? what in the world was going through these men's minds when they looked at a child? And girls due to poor diet matured even slower than today. my ex-sister in law can't have kids because she was repeatedly raped by her father. Aisha never bared children neither

You know that young girls & teen girls exhibit a much higher rate of birth complications and death during childbirth. So these people knew something was not right about this practice.

It was based on purely selfish & perverse desire. It is not natural, it causes harm and serves no evolutionary purpose. Even as a child were i raised religious my alram bells would have sounded on hearing this. I would know at a very young age it's wrong. Besides if god wanted men to sleep with children he would have instilled the desire in children to sleep with old farts LOL

My pet peeve is that modern Muslims which know better, could believe that a pedophile would be a god chosen messenger! Something is MAJORLY wrong with that.

And slavery is wrong, yes. But some slaveholders treated their slaves alot better than others. How dare you compare it to the sexual abuse of children? i mean just think about it.

I can't be objective about pedophilia. Sorry. They brainwashed people, they knew in their hearts it was wrong then too.

It's just men of power doing whatever they want, just like men in cults use manipulation and brainwashing to get the sex that they want today. Just like in that mormon cult in texas. They knew it was wrong and I don't want to get too graphic to explain that.

No excuses. People are aware when others suffer, it doesn't matter when it happens

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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Blood_Sacrifice

Haven't gone through the rest of the thread (will do it when I get back) so I may be missing some points. However, this post of mine will be in reference to the OP:

I was raised up as a Muslim, and not by any ordinary Muslims, but by actual "devoted", "blind" followers. My maternal family, while religious and all, are very understanding and liberal about others religion, hence I do not mind questioning my religious beliefs / or even debunking it in front of them. The problem occurs with my paternal family, who might be the most religious people in the whole world. My father not only prays five times a day, and do all the things Muslims "have" to do (or else, Allah is going to burn them in a fiery hell :lol:), but also demands / requests me to join with him as well! And that is the part which really hurts. Why should I follow the practices of the Faith I am skeptical about? And furthermore, why do I need to show my devotion to my Creator by following a tradition that had been set up for a different group of people, for a different era - can I not do my own prayer by my own means, follow my own Faith, that I am inclined towards. But then again, I cannot blame my father either, because he has got no clues 'bout my lack of belief / skepticism towards my religion, cause I never discuss these issues openly with him, reason being, as much as cool and calm individual my father is, I can very well imagine the tornadoes that are going to happen in my house the moment I express my lack of beliefs / skepticism. What even hurts more is that through out the entire day and night, he keeps on praying that I become a devoted Muslim, become extremely religious, etc etc.

So any advise? Not that I am an Ex-Muslim yet...well, thing is I don't know what I am - I need time to understand that - for some strange reason, even though I do not adhere to my Faith, I would like to keep the tag of "Muslim" with my name, mostly because that makes me feel comfortable (yeah, strange, I know)...but either way, I need a break from all. How can I express it to all my family that I do not want to follow these thousands-of-years-of-old traditions that makes little sense to me? How to come out and say let-me-live-my-life-the-way-I-want-to?

(That's all from my side. Maybe I should have typed this down later, when my thoughts were not so much jumbled up).

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Blood_Sacrifice

Me....upset? LOL.... far from it girl.... I'm as happy as a fat kid in a candy store..... :yes:

Hmmm also i must be the only Muslim turned Atheist person in here.... I guess there are no Muslims on this site although it is too early to tell.....

Peace

T.I.G

We had this Ozi before (Kratos as his second try), who "debated" with anyone whom he could get at hand, about how Islam is the only religion in the world, how Muhammad is the only way to lead a spiritual life, how ethical it is to force a women onto wearing a suffocating tent in a sunny day, and what a "beastly filthy" habit homosexuality is (pedophilia seems to be okay). I wasn't active in UM then, but read his posts anyway. Have you? If no, you should; if nothing else, it's good for a laugh.

Old members here know it what I'm talking about. *wink*

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MARAB0D

So Marabod. What is it in these little girls that these men found so attractive. any ideas? You must have some idea. Why did men do this when there were mature women around? what in the world was going through these men's minds when they looked at a child? And girls due to poor diet matured even slower than today. my ex-sister in law can't have kids because she was repeatedly raped by her father. Aisha never bared children neither

You know that young girls & teen girls exhibit a much higher rate of birth complications and death during childbirth. So these people knew something was not right about this practice.

It was based on purely selfish & perverse desire. It is not natural, it causes harm and serves no evolutionary purpose. Even as a child were i raised religious my alram bells would have sounded on hearing this. I would know at a very young age it's wrong. Besides if god wanted men to sleep with children he would have instilled the desire in children to sleep with old farts LOL

*snip*

I think it is wrong, to bring personal sexual preferences into the discussion of morality issues, related to the period of 1500 years ago. Early society was livind along the natural lines, and from Nature point of view women physiologically are ready for child birth often starting with 13yo. I do not know where the story of a 3yo came from, but such early sex was never practiced anywhere through the history. Societies with pre-arranged marriage often were "marrying" children of early age, but this marriage (which in our cultures sometimes left as "engagement") did not suggest sexual relationships. Something similar happened to Muhammad, who in accordance with the customs of his tribe took second young wife, which for few years was living in his house treated as a daughter before the actual relationships started. These years were mostly used for her education, as later she became the keeper of all family religious paperwork.

Given the statistics of the life expectancy (which you for some reason deny despite it is supported by multiple research), a woman had to start having children early, as the family target was to produce as many children as possible (due to the absence of medicare and high mortality in all ages). Any family could only survive when having many working hands, and any tribe could only survive having many warriors, as they had to compete with other families and neighbouring tribes for survival. It is in modern times the level of wealth and longevity of the people allow to have one-two children only, as they are taken care of in a way, practically assuring their surival, while in comparatively recent past in order to have 10 children a woman had to give birth to twenty.

Our past knows many human customs and habits which we today perceive as disgusting, for example cannibalism or first night right in Europe, so if one's target is to experience disgust to the Mankind, it is easy to simply read about how our ancestors were living.

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Beckys_Mom

By popular demand, i believe it was time to have a Muslim topic.

Popular demand? dude I was there, it was just sheri that asked you LMAOlaugh.gif .................but as she is popular I guess it can count LOL

As for asking are there any ex-muslims...good luck with that mate, as you are the only I have ever met on here lol

I mean why else would people act so surprized the sec you broadcasted it?? because its unheard of....now being an ex christian, is very common!

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Beckys_Mom

We had this Ozi before (Kratos as his second try),

I remember him........ohh man he was just in your face ............

Whats funny now is...we had an Ozi with a muslim thread..................and now we have an Aussie with a muslim thread....LMAO well the OP is an Aussiew00t.gif

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The Silver Thong

What the hell ! Kratos use to be a Muslim???

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Beckys_Mom

What the hell ! Kratos use to be a Muslim???

Different Kratos...the Kratos he is talking about had numbers in his ID..

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Blood_Sacrifice

Most women died giving birth to their offspring in the past, not because of a lack of good medical care, but because they were not biologically capable of it - a thirteen years old girl's body, for instance, is not mature enough to support childbirth, which, most of the time, caused the mother to die, or get seriously ill. A person may be emotionally capable of accepting someone else penetrating her, but biologically, her body will not.

However, if Muslims of today accepts that child-marriage was correct then, but wrong today, then why does they not accept things that were morally wrong then, but not anymore?

The easiest example I can think for it would be the ban on eating "unclean animals". In Islam, for instance, eating pig is prohibited, since it is an abomination, haram. No logical reasons were put forth as to why eating pigs would be haram, while eating other animals weren't. Historians have speculated, and most notable anthropologists agree that the abomination on eating pigs was based on the reason that swine flu was very much prevalent then, when these scriptures were written. If we had bird flus, then eating chicken would be equally incorrect.

To go deep into that, homosexuality was frowned upon then, and is still frowned upon today, in the Islamic community. If we accept that things like polygami, child-marriage etc was permitted then based on there culture but isn't acceptable anymore as culture had changed, can we not accept that was frowned upon then based on the needs of the culture and society, but should not be frowned upon anymore as the culture and society's needs had changed? Child-marriage is wrong today but right then, but homosexuality was wrong then, is wrong today, and will keep on being wrong?

Hypocrisy and double standards, my friend.

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Blood_Sacrifice

Different Kratos...the Kratos he is talking about had numbers in his ID..

Yeah, I am talking about Kratos, which was Ozi's second try after he had been banned. Was not talking about __Kratos__.

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Beckys_Mom

Yeah, I am talking about Kratos, which was Ozi's second try after he had been banned. Was not talking about __Kratos__.

Speaking of changing names...how come you dropped the SEEKER oF HADEES ..ok I didnt spell it right but you get my drift..you had the ID before lol

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The Silver Thong

Yeah, I am talking about Kratos, which was Ozi's second try after he had been banned. Was not talking about __Kratos__.

Ahhh got ya. Man that would have been a shocker if true LOL

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Beckys_Mom

Ahhh got ya. Man that would have been a shocker if true LOL

Nahh it wouldnt..I mean Kratos meaning the only Kratos we have known...well if he USED to be a muslim and now non believer...I wouldnt be shocked...I wouldnt give a toss LOL

Only thing that would shock me is if he turned to religion and became hard core religious..then i'd be shocked..but not a real shocker...it wouldnt be the forum would stand still or anything w00t.gif

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The Silver Thong

Nahh it wouldnt..I mean Kratos meaning the only Kratos we have known...well if he USED to be a muslim and now non believer...I wouldnt be shocked...I wouldnt give a toss LOL

Only thing that would shock me is if he turned to religion and became hard core religious..then i'd be shocked..but not a real shocker...it wouldnt be the forum would stand still or anything w00t.gif

True enough lol Kratos an evangelical LOL that would be hilarious...

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Beckys_Mom

True enough lol Kratos an evangelical LOL that would be hilarious...

Yup....I'd be one of the 1st to point and laugh lol

just like if Mr Walker came on and claimed he is now an atheist...I'd be in kinks laughing................OR others would be in stitches if I came on claiming I found jebus!!!w00t.gif

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HAJiME

My dad is dating an Iranian woman who is a former Muslim. She now considers herself Catholic. Her ex husband was Italian and she spent much of her life in Italy. The majority of her family are still Muslim. But most of them don't even wear the Hijab(sp?) so are, what I'd consider, very casually Islamic and I'm sure many would said not Muslim at all.

My dad went to Iran earlier this year and I was shocked to hear just how un-Muslim many people are there. Drinking alcohol, shooting and eating pigs, etc. Seems odd for such a strict Islamic State. But for me as a Westerner, I find it comforting to know that those who live there aren't like the world perhaps assumes they all would be, tarred with the same brush. I'm not saying it's good that many of them are Westernised, I'm saying it's nice to know they aren't all the same. Which sounds ignorant in itself, but I'm sure people will know what I mean.

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Blood_Sacrifice

Um, Becky, I keep changing my User name until I feel I have kept the name that fits my personality or grasp my imagination. Unfortunately, I am never satisfied with any of my names, hence keep on changing. And fortunately, UM allows me to do that.

Hajime: Muslims, like all other cultures are going ahead and changing with time, don't ya think so? Most Muslim women I have encountered, do not wear a veil, and many Islamic countries (and thankfully, the number is increasing day by day) don't have any restriation over that. A little shocked to know that countries like Iran have people drinking and all, though. Glad to see you here!

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