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The Infidel Guy

Any Muslims? or Ex-Muslims?

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Beckys_Mom

Um, Becky, I keep changing my User name until I feel I have kept the name that fits my personality or grasp my imagination. Unfortunately, I am never satisfied with any of my names, hence keep on changing. And fortunately, UM allows me to do that.

I stick with my only name...I cant be bothered changing all the time...but each to their own..what ever floats yer boat

As for muslims changing with the times...I dont believe so...not when you watch the news and see they stick with the old testament ways to punish people...heck they are still hanging gays ffs!!and beheading people...who does that now?? its so far back in the past...and the dress code...all sorts... UNLESS you are a modern muslim living in a different country that expresses more freedom

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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momentarylapseofreason

Um, Becky, I keep changing my User name until I feel I have kept the name that fits my personality or grasp my imagination. Unfortunately, I am never satisfied with any of my names, hence keep on changing. And fortunately, UM allows me to do that.

Hajime: Muslims, like all other cultures are going ahead and changing with time, don't ya think so? Most Muslim women I have encountered, do not wear a veil, and many Islamic countries (and thankfully, the number is increasing day by day) don't have any restriation over that. A little shocked to know that countries like Iran have people drinking and all, though. Glad to see you here!

Hi Blood,

You are in a dilemna with your father, and I'm sure you love him and want to please him. It must be tough. I feel for you.

I certainly agree with your posts and will sum it up again myself. (I feel like a prosecuting lawyer-LOL)

I'm glad someone like you can see the bigger picture.

My main point is because it was ok with the culture didn't necessarily make it right with god. If a man gets excited by a child then he is a pedophile (not so much an middle aged teen) it has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with desire (not always controllable but actions usually are) and selfishness.

These men just happened to have power and controlled others with fear and intimidation. They got whatever they desired, that's just how it was. And people seem to think that god allowed/accepted this. When a King took you daughter or wife for his pleasure, which happened often in the past, you knew in your gut it was wrong, although it may have been common or tradition.

But as you mentioned, I also agree and find it extremely odd and telling that pedophilia was not explicitly forbidden or condemned by these religions and their so called gods/prophets, yet homosexuality, adultery, theft, murder (depending whom), rape (again depending whom) were strictly forbidden and viewed as extremely "evil".

Pedophilia is one of the worst and harmful crimes ever! And you are right that one of the reasons there was such a high death rate in birthing is because these girls were not physically equipped. I mean seriously, these men had a dozen wifes or a few, they didn't need the little girls.

God (if he exists) did not create the desire in children to sleep with adults, enough said. So this should give believers really something to consider.

If a chosen man was truly a prophet sent by a sane, pure in thought, benevolent, compassionate, merciful, forgiving and wise god, he would have chosen someone that reflected his own character. The message would have been a much more honorable one and much more acceptable. After all if god said don't eat pork, don't rape (except your war booty) then he could have easily and rightly forbidden bonking children.

I rest my case...................

(yeah right! :w00t: )

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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momentarylapseofreason

My arguments are often based from a psychological angle.

It isn't too difficult to figure out why psychologists and psychiatrists are the most secular thinking people on this planet. (next to biologists, anthropologists and so on)

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momentarylapseofreason

I stick with my only name...I cant be bothered changing all the time...but each to their own..what ever floats yer boat

As for muslims changing with the times...I dont believe so...not when you watch the news and see they stick with the old testament ways to punish people...heck they are still hanging gays ffs!!and beheading people...who does that now?? its so far back in the past...and the dress code...all sorts... UNLESS you are a modern muslim living in a different country that expresses more freedom

I was thinking of changing mine to Shipwreck....don't say anything!! :ph34r:

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momentarylapseofreason

Hi Blood,

You are in a dilemna with your father, and I'm sure you love him and want to please him. It must be tough. I feel for you.

I certainly agree with your posts and will sum it up again myself. (I feel like a prosecuting lawyer-LOL)

I'm glad someone like you can see the bigger picture.

My main point is because it was ok with the culture didn't necessarily make it right with god. If a man gets excited by a child then he is a pedophile (not so much an middle aged teen) it has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with desire (not always controllable but actions usually are) and selfishness.

These men just happened to have power and controlled others with fear and intimidation. They got whatever they desired, that's just how it was. And people seem to think that god allowed/accepted this. When a King took you daughter or wife for his pleasure, which happened often in the past, you knew in your gut it was wrong, although it may have been common or tradition.

But as you mentioned, I also agree and find it extremely odd and telling that pedophilia was not explicitly forbidden or condemned by these religions and their so called gods/prophets, yet homosexuality, adultery, theft, murder (depending whom),were strictly forbidden and viewed as extremely "evil".

Pedophilia is one of the worst and harmful crimes ever! And you are right that one of the reasons there was such a high death rate in birthing is because these girls were not physically equipped. I mean seriously, these men had a dozen wifes or a few, they didn't need the little girls.

God (if he exists) did not create the desire in children to sleep with adults, enough said. So this should give believers really something to consider.

If a chosen man was truly a prophet sent by a sane, pure in thought, benevolent, compassionate, merciful, forgiving and wise god, he would have chosen someone that reflected his own character. The message would have been a much more honorable one and much more acceptable. After all if god said don't eat pork, don't kill, then he could have easily and rightly forbidden bonking/raping children.

I rest my case...................

(yeah right! :w00t: )

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Beckys_Mom

Pedophilia is one of the worst and harmful crimes ever! And you are right that one of the reasons there was such a high death rate in birthing is because these girls were not physically equipped. I mean seriously, these men had a dozen wifes or a few, they didn't need the little girls.

God (if he exists) did not create the desire in children to sleep with adults, enough said. So this should give believers really something to consider.

If a chosen man was truly a prophet sent by a sane, pure in thought, benevolent, compassionate, merciful, forgiving and wise god, he would have chosen someone that reflected his own character. The message would have been a much more honorable one and much more acceptable. After all if god said don't eat pork, don't rape (except your war booty) then he could have easily and rightly forbidden bonking children.

I rest my case...................

(yeah right! w00t.gif )

Now this is a knockout post ifever I read one

I can't stand it when people try and excuse sleeping with children, when they all chant - aha but back in the day, kids were married off at such a young age <----how the heck this excuses molesting kids is a joke

For back in the 'day'...kids were STILL just kids...and thought and acted like....KIDS..and I am sure that ' back in the day' they still didnt understand why uncle sam was touching them up in the most private places...and I am sure they couldnt understand why ...mommy swapped their lil cuddly toy with a grown man cuddling them in wrong ways.....and I am sure they felt scared and in pain...any flaming wonder man had to outlaw such horrid acts

For if tradition went so well - 'back in the day'..then it would have stood up in todays world

Anyone that molests a child deserves a horrible death...and I dont care look see what they did ' back in the day'.................

If god can create such laws..then he should have known kids couldnt handle that...and how it would mess a kid up...god SHOULD have made a law against molesting children

As for prophets...there is no such thing...god isnt going to pick a man to do his work...get real LOL

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Beckys_Mom

I was thinking of changing mine to Shipwreck....don't say anything!! ph34r.gif

It could be worse...you could be on board the BM express....

trainwreck.jpg

LOLlaugh.gif

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MARAB0D
For back in the 'day'...kids were STILL just kids...and thought and acted like....KIDS..and I am sure that ' back in the day' they still didnt understand why uncle sam was touching them up in the most private places...and I am sure they couldnt understand why ...mommy swapped their lil cuddly toy with a grown man cuddling them in wrong ways.....and I am sure they felt scared and in pain...any flaming wonder man had to outlaw such horrid acts

This is not true, BM. Our modern children are very infantile, compared to those in the past. We grow them with the pace, dictated by our modern social tradition, in which we expect them to become adults at a certain age as per our law - say, 18, 21 etc. Some countries lower the bar and announce 16 as age of consent. In some European countries 16 is a marriage age - not compulsory, but allowed in exceptional cases. 18 is the age allowed for joining military force.

In the past boys were becoming soldiers in their 14 sometimes, as they were learning to fight normally since the age of 7. And similar way the girls were brought up, as the mothers taught them how to be a wife. We know Kings and Queens of this age of 13-14, and not always (although often) lead by a Regent. All social milestones the people were passing earlier than today, just read Romeo and Juliet for that case. This is because the life was hard and dangerous, and it was much shorter than today.

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Beckys_Mom

This is not true, BM.

Actually it IS true....back in those days kids still acted like kids...it was only when adults thought it was OK to force them into sleeping with adult men and have their kids...

It was outlawed for a good reason....

Imagine if it were never outlawed? and it still went on...

I can't imagine playing with my dollies one day and pushed down the asile the next wtf? I wouldnt know how to understand it

I cant stand pure ignorance...that thinks just because a society did it once...it was ok in the minds of a child?? no it was NOT

thank god it was outlawed

Didnt society think it was the right thing to do when they wanted to burn witches?? they had NO problem with it...it was outlawed for a GOOD reason...I seriously doubt the victims would have thought - ohh well its tradition!!!!!!!!!!!huh.gif

Very easy for you to sit and make it all out like it was back then...NO it wasnt...the kid still would have been scred...the kid was FORCED into it...they had no choice..and if ANY such kid dared to stand up to its father...they had the poor kid stonned to death <---which by the way was done those days

So because it was done those days mara...the kid all of a sudden thought - ohh ok if I must???hmm.gif

In the past boys were becoming soldiers in their 14 sometimes, as they were learning to fight normally since the age of 7.

Only because adults brainwashed them and forced them...doesnt mean the kids thought it was OK!!!

If kids thought all of this ill treatment was OK mara...then why on earth did they outlaw it?? they did so for a reason....obviously so many couldnt take it no more ....and I know not every last parent believed it was right...as lots of parents im sure cared more for their offspring

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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MARAB0D

Most kids express interest to sex much earlier than the age of consent is reached. We currently detract them from this and offer other things instead, we keep them in kindies and schools to make them busy and tired. In the past the people were going straight to the point, and it is a mistake to think that early marriage was enforced. How do you know? Talk to the females from sub-Saharan Africa, they would tell you about the exercises, their mothers tell them to do from the very early age, telling them how to develop the muscles in vaginal area in order to be sexually attractive to the men. This happens today, and by the age of 13-14 such tribal girl already knows more than you in adult age. All depends on how the children are brought up.

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Beckys_Mom

Most kids express interest to sex much earlier than the age of consent is reached. We currently detract them from this and offer other things instead, we keep them in kindies and schools to make them busy and tired. In the past the people were going straight to the point, and it is a mistake to think that early marriage was enforced. How do you know? Talk to the females from sub-Saharan Africa, they would tell you about the exercises, their mothers tell them to do from the very early age, telling them how to develop the muscles in vaginal area in order to be sexually attractive to the men. This happens today, and by the age of 13-14 such tribal girl already knows more than you in adult age. All depends on how the children are brought up.

I woldnt say MOST kids mara..just because we know of young 13-14 yr old parents...it doesnt make them the majority

And besides...those that do get pregnant at 14 or so...most of the time its done with their concent....

I'd dare say the majority of kids 13 - 14 dont like the idea of dating let alone having kids..........I for one was one of those kids...I cringed and took it bad when my friends mary and Cathy went looking for boys at 13...when I was still interested in playing jump rope and going out on my bike lol I had no intention in looking for boys...I didnt want to grow up fast

And I naturally felt that way...and I know so many kids at that age feel the same

Kids like to be just kids

If I told my neice she should be married at her age..she is 11...I know she would take a look at me like I was nuts...

All I am saying is...just beause they molested back then...doesnt mean the kids were fine with it and it doesnt mean many other were too

Mara it was outlawd for a reason....for if it were FINE back then..it wouldnt be outlawed

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MARAB0D

It was outlawed because the social life and human life expectancy changed. We do not go to war at 15, we do not live 20 years, we need to have education etc etc. It was not outlawed, the age of consent was gradually risen to meet the social needs, so the kids started to be brought up differently. The horse must be ahead of the cart! Social demand goes first ( actually not even social but rather economical).

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momentarylapseofreason

This is not true, BM. Our modern children are very infantile, compared to those in the past. We grow them with the pace, dictated by our modern social tradition, in which we expect them to become adults at a certain age as per our law - say, 18, 21 etc. Some countries lower the bar and announce 16 as age of consent. In some European countries 16 is a marriage age - not compulsory, but allowed in exceptional cases. 18 is the age allowed for joining military force.

In the past boys were becoming soldiers in their 14 sometimes, as they were learning to fight normally since the age of 7. And similar way the girls were brought up, as the mothers taught them how to be a wife. We know Kings and Queens of this age of 13-14, and not always (although often) lead by a Regent. All social milestones the people were passing earlier than today, just read Romeo and Juliet for that case. This is because the life was hard and dangerous, and it was much shorter than today.

Historical records show that puberty in girls in the United States and Europe changed dramatically from the mid-19th to mid-20th centuries. In the first part of the 20th century, the average age at menarche declined by two to three months each decade, falling from about 17 to 13, in both the United States and Europe. However, those changes are largely attributed to better health, nutrition and medical care among children.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/earlier-puberty-in-european-girls/?

Sexual Maturity Linked to Weight

Overweight Girls, Underweight Boys Reach Sexual Maturity Faster

WebMD Health News-->

Nov. 4, 2002 -- There are increasing reports of girls reaching sexual maturity at an earlier age than they did in the past. And one possible culprit is thought to be the rise of obesity among children.

In a study in the November issue of Pediatrics, overweight girls were more likely to mature sexually at a younger age than the average girl. But the opposite was true for boys.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20021104/sexual-maturity-linked-to-weight

I find it funny when men define our sexuality and claim to know when it's the right time for us to get bonked. The start of menstruation and sexual feelings certainly doesn't mean it's time. Neither should tradition or culture dictate it. It is our body after all and no one has a right to dictate when, who, how, where and when we are available for sex. We are not cattle.

My first sexual feelings started around 11. It's a clitoral sensation>"tickly" "funny". With girls the inner vaginal sensations start later. Sometimes it only stays clitoral. My "funny" feelings certainly didn't produce a desire for penetration, nor did I start "eyeing" grown men. I had innocent crushes on other boys my age. I thought some grown men were handsome and charming and pictured myself having a husband like them eventually. The sexual awakening of girls is usually slow and sweet and a complicated process. And we are curious about how others experience sex but from a comfortable distance.

You can't compare us to most boys that are "ready to go".

I was 15 when I lost my virginity to the right/appropriate guy (he was 17). I was proud and felt like a real grown up LOL. It was luckily for me a positive experienc, it was on my terms, he was a littly impatient but it was ultimately my decision, and of course I wasn't as mature as I thought.

I think 16 is a good age depending on the emotional intelligence of the girl. Some are never ready as far as I'm concerned.

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momentarylapseofreason

Showing neutrality to taboos (and this taboo is a horrendous one). Is the first step in trying to justify and liberalize them.

One doesn’t have to think hard about how difficult life can be when you do not have access to appropriate healthcare services and facilities. The developing world and countries at war are continually burdened and the ones who pay the heavy price for this strain are most often women and children. In many societies an added problem comes from gender inequality and a lack of adequate education on healthcare, in particularly female issues, including childbirth. On such preventable and treatable medical condition that thus plagues many women and girls is fistula.

Fistulas, is abnormal connection or passageway between two epithelium-lined organs or vessels which normally are not connected. The types of fistulas that most commonly are faced by women and girls are vesicovaginal and rectovaginal, which most often occur in the case of violent or gang rape, very often done with objects, such is so commonly seen by victims of the use of rape as a weapon of war. The second type is obstetric fistula, which develops when blood supply to the tissues of the vagina and the bladder, and/or rectum, is cut off during prolonged obstructed labor, this is most often due to the mother having a small or under developed (flat) pelvis, thus occurs frequently in the case of child mother and thus is most common in countries with a higher level of child marriages. Fistula which is caused when tissue dies, thus causing a hole to form from the vagina to the rectum, which then causes urine and/or feces pass through uncontrollably. According to the World Health Organization some 2 million women are living with untreated fistula, and around 100,000 women will develop fistula each year.

The effects of fistula are harsh on it’s victims both physically and psychologically, as victims are often abandoned and social ostracized. Many women and girls also suffer additional verbal and physical abuses by their husbands, families and communities. The main reason for such sever reactions from the condition are based on sheer misunderstanding of the condition, which has led to its continued silence. The first battle to be won against fistula is that the silence against fistula must be broken, for only then will the feeling of shame be lifted from the shoulders of 2 million women and girls and treatment for the condition be increasingly sought. The second battle against fistula is to see that the 100,000 women and girls who are afflicted by this preventable condition are saved from the burden, by increasing education and awareness on women’s health and gender issues, increasing access to adequate healthcare facilities and services, and preventing gender based violence and rape warfare. Thus gender equality is at the forefront in winning the battle against fistula, and freeing millions of women and girls from a life of needless shame.

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2009/03/15/the-battle-against-fistula/

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ChloeB

My pet peeve is that modern Muslims which know better, could believe that a pedophile would be a god chosen messenger! Something is MAJORLY wrong with that.

You are absolutely right, and I think it's wrong to just look at this as a cultural issue similar to how we'd look at segregation today - that it was wrong back then, we don't do it anymore and we've evolved to being a little more advanced as seeing other humans as equals. This is different - this was exactly as you say - the chosen messenger and if we are to believe this god is supposed to be timeless, he's not going to change with what happens to be PC at the time, what's wrong will always be wrong, and you'd expect to see that in who he chooses as messengers. God or Allah whatever shouldn't be influenced by culture, but has the same standards on what is wrong yesterday, today, and tomorrow not always changing. Same argument I've had here about the murder of children in the old testament. These atrocities only change when someone finally stands up and says it's wrong and fights against it. Sad thing is when it's these different holy books that supports it and people who look to these books as examples.

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Beckys_Mom

I was 15 when I lost my virginity to the right/appropriate guy (he was 17). I was proud and felt like a real grown up LOL. It was luckily for me a positive experienc, it was on my terms, he was a littly impatient but it was ultimately my decision, and of course I wasn't as mature as I thought.

I think 16 is a good age depending on the emotional intelligence of the girl. Some are never ready as far as I'm concerned.

At least you wernt forced to do it with some grown adult...worse at a much younger age...and have his kids like it or not, all because your family saw it as a tradition...

The way I see it, a kid is just a kid...taking a child so very young, and having them marry offf..to have kids is wrong... When I read on how the muslim prophet Muhammad did it...was looking a 6yr old girl..until her father pleaded to wait untill she was at least 9 yrs old...and so he did...and then the lil girl was married off at just 9 years old...9 is still far too young...and people today think, that because it was a done thing, it must make it ok...well, it sure doesnt

Only reason why we have evolved now is because a few others in the past put a stop to it and it was outlawed....now in todays owrld its against the law...and peado's are seen as scum of the earth....yes back in those days..peados were common and hardly anyone thought anyhting of it

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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MARAB0D

Showing neutrality to taboos (and this taboo is a horrendous one). Is the first step in trying to justify and liberalize them.

One doesn’t have to think hard about how difficult life can be when you do not have access to appropriate healthcare services and facilities. The developing world and countries at war are continually burdened and the ones who pay the heavy price for this strain are most often women and children. In many societies an added problem comes from gender inequality and a lack of adequate education on healthcare, in particularly female issues, including childbirth. On such preventable and treatable medical condition that thus plagues many women and girls is fistula.

Fistulas, is abnormal connection or passageway between two epithelium-lined organs or vessels which normally are not connected. The types of fistulas that most commonly are faced by women and girls are vesicovaginal and rectovaginal, which most often occur in the case of violent or gang rape, very often done with objects, such is so commonly seen by victims of the use of rape as a weapon of war. The second type is obstetric fistula, which develops when blood supply to the tissues of the vagina and the bladder, and/or rectum, is cut off during prolonged obstructed labor, this is most often due to the mother having a small or under developed (flat) pelvis, thus occurs frequently in the case of child mother and thus is most common in countries with a higher level of child marriages. Fistula which is caused when tissue dies, thus causing a hole to form from the vagina to the rectum, which then causes urine and/or feces pass through uncontrollably. According to the World Health Organization some 2 million women are living with untreated fistula, and around 100,000 women will develop fistula each year.

The effects of fistula are harsh on it’s victims both physically and psychologically, as victims are often abandoned and social ostracized. Many women and girls also suffer additional verbal and physical abuses by their husbands, families and communities. The main reason for such sever reactions from the condition are based on sheer misunderstanding of the condition, which has led to its continued silence. The first battle to be won against fistula is that the silence against fistula must be broken, for only then will the feeling of shame be lifted from the shoulders of 2 million women and girls and treatment for the condition be increasingly sought. The second battle against fistula is to see that the 100,000 women and girls who are afflicted by this preventable condition are saved from the burden, by increasing education and awareness on women’s health and gender issues, increasing access to adequate healthcare facilities and services, and preventing gender based violence and rape warfare. Thus gender equality is at the forefront in winning the battle against fistula, and freeing millions of women and girls from a life of needless shame.

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2009/03/15/the-battle-against-fistula/

These all researches you point to are MODERN, and study the children, following the MODERN hygienic practices. Making it simple, they WASH themselves every day, maybe even twice. This is not the situation of the period before 19th century, as even the major cities in Europe were lacking regular water supply facilities. As for the nomads (which we are actually talking about) they had completely different hygienic environment.

You may remember that due to the absence of shower, Abraham had to circumcise himself with the stone knife - with 99% probability he suffered infection, known as Phimosis, which in men results from poor hygiene. He was not alone like that - Australian Aboriginals, living in the desert, started using circumcision probably 20,000 years before Abraham... Mongolian nomads had another solution - a normal Mongol 1000 years ago was having a bath 2 times a life, once immediately after birth, and another time after death. All time inbetween these points they were generously coating the body with sheep fat, which was keeping them clean, but a bit smelly. In such conditions bacterial flora in sensitive areas exists and develops natural way, and the same natural way delivers irritation to the genitals, so what happens to our children in sexual drive cannot be compared to what was happening to the children of our ancestors.

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momentarylapseofreason

These all researches you point to are MODERN, and study the children, following the MODERN hygienic practices. Making it simple, they WASH themselves every day, maybe even twice. This is not the situation of the period before 19th century, as even the major cities in Europe were lacking regular water supply facilities. As for the nomads (which we are actually talking about) they had completely different hygienic environment.

You may remember that due to the absence of shower, Abraham had to circumcise himself with the stone knife - with 99% probability he suffered infection, known as Phimosis, which in men results from poor hygiene. He was not alone like that - Australian Aboriginals, living in the desert, started using circumcision probably 20,000 years before Abraham... Mongolian nomads had another solution - a normal Mongol 1000 years ago was having a bath 2 times a life, once immediately after birth, and another time after death. All time inbetween these points they were generously coating the body with sheep fat, which was keeping them clean, but a bit smelly. In such conditions bacterial flora in sensitive areas exists and develops natural way, and the same natural way delivers irritation to the genitals, so what happens to our children in sexual drive cannot be compared to what was happening to the children of our ancestors.

Marabod,

you must have not read my post carefully or fully. It is because their vaginas literally ripped into their rectum during childbirth. They are not equipped. This is happening in Africa alot still to this day. What does this have to do with hygiene? Keeping clean has nothing to do with the capibility of bearing a child without damage.

You can keep your private parts perfectly clean with clean water, believe me. i used to live out of the back of a pick up truck with my ex-boyfriend for 3 months. We were homeless & adventurous (by choice) and bathed in the ocean and lakes. It was no problem. It kept us from being "smelly"

Now in the desert? I don't know, if they had a water source like the Nile (which was probably clean), ocean, lake or stream? The native americans managed to be fine as far as I know. They didn't do no weird cutting of genitals I believe.

Now how in the world does this excuse bonking children in the past? So are you saying that children in the past had sex drives that made them desire adult men? kids were kids, and physically developed even slower in those days

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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momentarylapseofreason

Marabod, my whole point is that I doubt very very much that a loving god would have chosen a pedophile to be his messenger.

I want Muslims to think about it, that's all.

Like the others stated above, it is not a case of history, customs or culture.

It is a case of morals, compassion and wisdom.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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MARAB0D

Marabod,

you must have not read my post carefully or fully. It is because their vaginas literally ripped into their rectum during childbirth. They are not equipped. This is happening in Africa alot still to this day. What does this have to do with hygiene?

You can keep your private parts perfectly clean with clean water, believe me.

Now in the desert? I don't know, if they had a water source like the Nile (which was probably clean), ocean, lake or stream? The native americans managed to be fine as far as I know. They didn't do no weird cutting of genitals I believe.

Now how in the world does this excuse bonking children in the past? So are you saying that children in the past had sex drives that made them desire adult men? kids were kids, and physically developed even slower in those days

But they WERE NOT "bonking children! This is entirely your fantasy. The marriage did not mean immediate sex, when it was happening at 11, it was only a statement of securing the female. You can read tons of ancient literature, and everywhere the age of 15 to 17 for women is mentioned as the start of physical sexual life, say helen of Troy was 17, when she was abducted by Paris, and she was already MARRIED. If some girl individually was seen as ready it could be earlier, but it was not a norm at all. The same time "marriage" could happen in any age, at 3 too, specially in the societies allowing for Polygamy. You (and me) know NOTHING about Muhammad's Aisha - maybe in her 13 she was 6 foot tall and 150 pounds in weight, how do we know? It was a decision of her PARENTS that she was able to get married at 11. They were not going by age at all, but by the degree of development. Ovid tells about Latin giving his young daughter Lavinia to Aeneus - but she already HAD a husband since she was a toddler, the pre-arranged husband, with whom the war started then, as he claimed his rights on her. The people did not see the young wives as sexual toys, a wife was taken for procreation, not for rape, there was enough adult women around for just sex. You somehow forget that rape in all forms was punishable, at least within historical period we know, and if the early sex really hurt some child, as you say, one could expect a full scale vendetta from her relatives. Just give me example of such case, which was tolerated! You know that Aisha was staying with Muhammad till his death and then continued explaining his teaching to the other relatives, she lived a long life by the way. You just create a world of fantasy and then debunk it, meanwhile technically all those "underaged" wives managed to establish great nations, means they indeed were giving birth, and successfully, to more than one child - which is impossible if your vision is correct. What Muhammad did was not an exception, but a RULE.

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Pseudo Intellectual

Actually, marabod, Muhammad married her when she was 6, and had sex with her when she was 9.

Married to Aisha

Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated in Medina.[13][11][14][15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_wives#Married_to_Aisha

And there's a Hadith about how Aisha was simply a child who liked to play with her toys when she was told that Muhammad was going to marry her. I wouldn't say she was a "grown up" or knew anything about marriage or sex.

Edited by Pseudo Intellectual

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MARAB0D

PI, neither wiki is the most reliable source in the world, not I am in possession of some credible biography of Muhammad; but it is known that Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bekr, his closest friend, general and spiritual successor, who is buried next to him. What this means, is that this marriage was the initiative of the PARENTS, who insisted on her becoming Muhammad's wife - and this means that their relationships were at least technically possible. Moreover various sources, assembled by Manly Hall in his Encyclopaedia, say that not only he wasnt anyhow sex-addicted, but Aisha was for him first of all a close friend, and he was often helping her to do work in the house. She later said that he was himself repairing his clothes and shoes. All their life together Aisha (at least according to Sir William Muir, "Life of Muhammad) considered him rather her father than a husband, they were remaining very close to each other, and after he was poisoned and started to feel sick, she was helping him to walk, and at the end he died with his head lifted by her hands (she was already over 20 years old). Thomas Karleil describes him as a very modest person, who was living the second half of his life almost as a monk, eating bread and water mostly and mostly praying and talking to "Gabriel". To me it seems he was no more paedophile than Jesus was a homosexual, despite of the latter we can find evidence even in the Gospels.

Edited by marabod

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ChloeB

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064

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MARAB0D
Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old

This is what the legend says. I am not going to deny anything, as this is not my vested interest, to study in details Muhammad's sexual life, however I just want to note here, that the legends are not "records" and are mostly based on hearsay. I find it highly unlikely that their sexual intercourse was committed in the presence of the witnesses, and this means the message about it is only based on the words, said... There are questions here, arising from these legends and the ages mentioned in them. Why would Muhammad report his sexual life to public? What could be the reason of such announcement made by him? To whom was it addressed? He was not a teenager to brawl about his sexual victories!

The ONLY person, really interested in them two having sex, was her father Abu Bekr, as only the confirmed case of sexual intercourse was the proof that he is from now on a relative of the Prophet! My daughter is already 3 years in his house, but I am still not his father-in-law; if he dies now, I would become no one! Muhammad, on his part, considered Abu Bekr his closest friend and ally - so I won't discard the possibility that he simply LIED to him, in order to keep him from the worries to lose his position as a relative and succesor. And Abu Bekr then made this lie public to support his own status... This sex was more needed politically than physically, and this is a very important part of that old reality.

It is absolutely pointless not only to apply modern morality to the nomadic tribe of 1500 years ago, it is also absolutely unreliable to judge about someone's sexual life by the 3rd-hand rumours. Even 2 years ago the media was insisting all children belong to Michael Jackson - and now we know he could not have sex at all, and know who their physical fathers were. And what would be the books saying of Michael Jackson 1500 years later? Why is that? Easy - people do not usually have sex in public places, so there is no witnesses to it!

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ChloeB

This is what the legend says. I am not going to deny anything, as this is not my vested interest, to study in details Muhammad's sexual life, however I just want to note here, that the legends are not "records" and are mostly based on hearsay. I find it highly unlikely that their sexual intercourse was committed in the presence of the witnesses, and this means the message about it is only based on the words, said... There are questions here, arising from these legends and the ages mentioned in them. Why would Muhammad report his sexual life to public? What could be the reason of such announcement made by him? To whom was it addressed? He was not a teenager to brawl about his sexual victories!

The ONLY person, really interested in them two having sex, was her father Abu Bekr, as only the confirmed case of sexual intercourse was the proof that he is from now on a relative of the Prophet! My daughter is already 3 years in his house, but I am still not his father-in-law; if he dies now, I would become no one! Muhammad, on his part, considered Abu Bekr his closest friend and ally - so I won't discard the possibility that he simply LIED to him, in order to keep him from the worries to lose his position as a relative and succesor. And Abu Bekr then made this lie public to support his own status... This sex was more needed politically than physically, and this is a very important part of that old reality.

It is absolutely pointless not only to apply modern morality to the nomadic tribe of 1500 years ago, it is also absolutely unreliable to judge about someone's sexual life by the 3rd-hand rumours. Even 2 years ago the media was insisting all children belong to Michael Jackson - and now we know he could not have sex at all, and know who their physical fathers were. And what would be the books saying of Michael Jackson 1500 years later? Why is that? Easy - people do not usually have sex in public places, so there is no witnesses to it!

Yeah, I don't know, Mara, hardly seems like something they'd want to advertise, but that's where it came from so I was wanting to show you. Hey, you mentioned Manly Hall...it's not Secret Teaching of All Ages is it? I have that book, I could go pull it out and look at what you're looking at if it is.

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