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The Infidel Guy

Any Muslims? or Ex-Muslims?

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The Silver Thong

Jeff, but the same can be said about Jesus too! He also violated his own law - as he confused God's with Caesar's and claimed himself a King, a secular power. He also violated Sabbath, a strict condition of the law of his own nation. And sure he himself was learning from the same Satan! So what is the difference?

Oh I never said Jesus didn't violate his laws or that of gods or are they one and the same? I have as many questions for Muslims as I do for Christians. I am not picking on Islam unfairly nor do I hold Christianity up to a light brighter than Islam. They both have there failings and both have to be able to justify one over the other. I don't do that I'm an observer of human nature and I find all religion fascinating. The more I understand both Christianity and Islam the more I see myself as an individual and I am able to understand my belief or non belief as some say.

I don't understand why being associated with a group as being a good thing. Theres a strong correlation between religious thinking and mob mentality. I'm not an Atheist because I think it's the in thing. I'm an Atheist because of religion and what it's teachings are and those teachings do not fit with my thought patterns or I can't process them properly but my understanding comes from real world interactions and not some story that has a jaded history of lies,deceit,manipulation and deception.

All those things are man made and can be found in any man made government or society that has leaders. No Deity required. Hence the evidence of any religious super being is becoming a thing of the past, as we move on we have to let go. Some kids let go of there security blanky at 4 some keep it till there 80 and beyond.

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Beckys_Mom

I don't understand why being associated with a group as being a good thing. Theres a strong correlation between religious thinking and mob mentality.

Hmmm good point

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MARAB0D

I should know and I stick by what I said...but I am flattered you pay attention to my posts..so I gracefully thank you so muchoriginal.gif

If you know only because you should know, then of course I have nothing to oppose to this, despite it seems to me I surely must be better informed of my own national culture than you may possibly be.

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Beckys_Mom

If you know only because you should know, then of course I have nothing to oppose to this, despite it seems to me I surely must be better informed of my own national culture than you may possibly be.

I am surely must be far better informed in my own catholic background than you would be...trust me...nuff said as this clearly is so off topic...

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MARAB0D

Oh I never said Jesus didn't violate his laws or that of gods or are they one and the same? I have as many questions for Muslims as I do for Christians. I am not picking on Islam unfairly nor do I hold Christianity up to a light brighter than Islam. They both have there failings and both have to be able to justify one over the other. I don't do that I'm an observer of human nature and I find all religion fascinating. The more I understand both Christianity and Islam the more I see myself as an individual and I am able to understand my belief or non belief as some say.

I don't understand why being associated with a group as being a good thing. Theres a strong correlation between religious thinking and mob mentality. I'm not an Atheist because I think it's the in thing. I'm an Atheist because of religion and what it's teachings are and those teachings do not fit with my thought patterns or I can't process them properly but my understanding comes from real world interactions and not some story that has a jaded history of lies,deceit,manipulation and deception.

All those things are man made and can be found in any man made government or society that has leaders. No Deity required. Hence the evidence of any religious super being is becoming a thing of the past, as we move on we have to let go. Some kids let go of there security blanky at 4 some keep it till there 80 and beyond.

I did not use this comparative features of Jesus and Muhammad for their evaluation, I only said that they expose some similarities.Also I do not see being a member of a mob as something ultimately negative - people are free to choose to live using their own Free Will, or delegate the rights to make moral decisions to the mob leader. To each his own! On personal level I would side with your perception, but I hesitate to speak universally of the entire Mankind. I equally fail to see God as either of these religions describes this "thing", but it does not mean everyone else must fail too. On the other hand, the actual Prophets were certainly distinctively wise people, and I see no need to connect their teachings with the actual achievements of the religions, based on these teachings, because all religions I know were the result of a scholastic interpretation of the initial teachings by non-enlightened people. In earlier days they were seen as wizards only because they could read and write, but now any school kid must be seen as a wizard if we use similar approach.

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ChloeB

None both delusional..but as this thread is about muslims...we can forget jesus or jebus lol

You know that was something that surprised me too, when I very first started to learn a little about Islam - how much Jesus plays a part, that they view him as a prophet too, not divine though. They actually think of him in a better way than Jews from what I understand, who think of him as a false prophet.

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MARAB0D

I am surely must be far better informed in my own catholic background than you would be...trust me...nuff said as this clearly is so off topic...

You can give orders to your hubby about nuff and not nuff - but here if you do not like the reaction to your own expressed uneducated opinion, you can easily put me on your ignore list.

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Beckys_Mom

You can give orders to your hubby about nuff and not nuff -

laugh.gif I said it because it was way off topic...LOL relax yourself

nuff said LOL

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Beckys_Mom

You know that was something that surprised me too, when I very first started to learn a little about Islam - how much Jesus plays a part, that they view him as a prophet too, not divine though. They actually think of him in a better way than Jews from what I understand, who think of him as a false prophet.

Yea true Cloe the muslims viewed jesus differenly then the jews did

But way I see it....god doesnt need a niddle man lol

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The Silver Thong

I did not use this comparative features of Jesus and Muhammad for their evaluation, I only said that they expose some similarities.Also I do not see being a member of a mob as something ultimately negative - people are free to choose to live using their own Free Will, or delegate the rights to make moral decisions to the mob leader. To each his own! On personal level I would side with your perception, but I hesitate to speak universally of the entire Mankind. I equally fail to see God as either of these religions describes this "thing", but it does not mean everyone else must fail too. On the other hand, the actual Prophets were certainly distinctively wise people, and I see no need to connect their teachings with the actual achievements of the religions, based on these teachings, because all religions I know were the result of a scholastic interpretation of the initial teachings by non-enlightened people. In earlier days they were seen as wizards only because they could read and write, but now any school kid must be seen as a wizard if we use similar approach.

Oh I don't dare speak for mankind as I represent a very small aspect of it. As for the free will you claim us to have we do but it also has extreme limitations when speaking religiously. God gave us free will ya only if you believe in that god. Otherwise one is chastized and made to give up there free will to follow a doctrine. How do religious folk explain free will in one sentence and then say in another, you will go to hell for not following or believing? free will is a scam perpetrated by religion to yet again deceive. God and free will should never be used in the same sentence. Doh I just did it lol.

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Beckys_Mom

Oh I don't dare speak for mankind as I represent a very small aspect of it. As for the free will you claim us to have we do but it also has extreme limitations when speaking religiously. God gave us free will ya only if you believe in that god. Otherwise one is chastized and made to give up there free will to follow a doctrine. How do religious folk explain free will in one sentence and then say in another, you will go to hell for not following or believing? free will is a scam perpetrated by religion to yet again deceive. God and free will should never be used in the same sentence. Doh I just did it lol.

You're right in that respect...there is no freedom of choice, if you chose not to believe and follow a invisible being you have no real evidence of...so due to that, you are tossed to hell <---not freedom of anything... its a dictation ..a demand...or command

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The Silver Thong

You know that was something that surprised me too, when I very first started to learn a little about Islam - how much Jesus plays a part, that they view him as a prophet too, not divine though. They actually think of him in a better way than Jews from what I understand, who think of him as a false prophet.

That is very true. At least Islam recognizes Jesus and respects him to a point. That being said Islam or the Quran was written 400 yrs after the bible so recognizing a religious figure in there own religion from another comes as no surprise. They would have had to create ties with Christianity in there own version or it would not have been taken seriously by any. Islam or for conversion reasons would have had to of included Jesus as it was by the time the accepted belief. However it also used the my god is better than your god argument. Never a winner when talking about things of legend ;)

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MARAB0D

Oh I don't dare speak for mankind as I represent a very small aspect of it. As for the free will you claim us to have we do but it also has extreme limitations when speaking religiously. God gave us free will ya only if you believe in that god. Otherwise one is chastized and made to give up there free will to follow a doctrine. How do religious folk explain free will in one sentence and then say in another, you will go to hell for not following or believing? free will is a scam perpetrated by religion to yet again deceive. God and free will should never be used in the same sentence. Doh I just did it lol.

Technically I think God in the bible never gave us any free Will, we acquired it when understood the difference between Good and Evil, and thus became able to make a choice, how to act. This our ability is irrelevant to religions except the religions call it "Free will" but an Atheist would say "moral choice". This is only our "biological" property to see what we are doing to the others. As you see I am not getting involved with the kids from free will thread, as they hardly understand what exactly they are discussing, thinking this to be a freedom of physical choice. If one asks, what is then the difference between us and animals, they cannot explain or misunderstand the question.

Meanwhile religious approach about going to hell means that they say when we disregard our free will and make a choice to act out of Evil despite we know this, then we create what they call "sin", while they think the punishment for sin is hell. For a non-believer this would be the later sufferings, caused by the Consciousness, which makes a person sorry for some deliberate wrongdoing.

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ChloeB

That is very true. At least Islam recognizes Jesus and respects him to a point. That being said Islam or the Quran was written 400 yrs after the bible so recognizing a religious figure in there own religion from another comes as no surprise. They would have had to create ties with Christianity in there own version or it would not have been taken seriously by any. Islam or for conversion reasons would have had to of included Jesus as it was by the time the accepted belief. However it also used the my god is better than your god argument. Never a winner when talking about things of legend ;)

Just goes to show what a dufus I was because it was a big surprise to me. I had it in my head that they were like, "Jesus is your guy, we've got our own." Not a clue. I think someone who was Muslim on here said they are waiting for Jesus' return too which was news to me as well.

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The Silver Thong

Just goes to show what a dufus I was because it was a big surprise to me. I had it in my head that they were like, "Jesus is your guy, we've got our own." Not a clue. I think someone who was Muslim on here said they are waiting for Jesus' return too which was news to me as well.

Thats the thing most don't realize how influential Christianity was over the creation of Islam. Muhammad and Jesus might have well just shared a closet LOL. When one looks at the Quran and the old testament there are a lot of similarities I'm seeing as far as how strict religion is and how far out of the realm of human decency and religion separate each other. You would think religion is meant to be good when in reality it is nothing except the deception of man and a means to divide and concur. Religion is a tool that man uses and it's not for good. If we could hear and see god, he would be doing the double triple face palm ;)

To sum up religion by any definition no matter the conviction, god did not write or have any influence in the writings of the Quran or the Bible.

As far as a Muslim waiting for Jesus to return hmmm thats a new one to me to. Maybe a sign of the three horse men, I don't know LOL

Edited by The Silver Thong

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AdealJustice

Thats the thing most don't realize how influential Christianity was over the creation of Islam. Muhammad and Jesus might have well just shared a closet LOL. When one looks at the Quran and the old testament there are a lot of similarities I'm seeing as far as how strict religion is and how far out of the realm of human decency and religion separate each other. You would think religion is meant to be good when in reality it is nothing except the deception of man and a means to divide and concur. Religion is a tool that man uses and it's not for good. If we could hear and see god, he would be doing the double triple face palm ;)

There are some similarities but alot of differences take the time to read both of them see what they are.

I just read most of the surrah and it seems that 53:19-23 is out of context and hProphet says that Allah is in no physical form and we shouldn't pray to these idols. basicly there is no god but Allah and he is in no physical form. This is all after his second descemnt to the mountain of light were he revieved revelitions. Look it up aswell chloeB im pretty sure i've gotten my answer . Also there is nothing new about muslims waiting for jesus's return aswell just goes to show you need to look into the religion more aswell. It is said that Jesus will come before judgment day i'm pretty sure or on judgment day to kill Dajjal and Ya-jooj- and ma-jooj look all that up aswell. Btoh Judaism and Christianity has influence but it is mostly Judaism i would say that has more influence over Islam. what do you mean human decency and religion seperate each other? God didn't write the Quran he sent it to gabriel to prophet mohammed pbuh. God clearly didn't send the bible to Jesus because he didn't wwrite it , it was written by people who invision jesus and got the message through the vision of jesus and gods word. Muslims never say we have our own guy we say Prophet mohammed was the last prophet but we includ otherr prophets in the quran aswell including moses, jesus, abraham ,etc.

Edited by seller2006

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eight bits
I just read most of the surrah and it seems that 53:19-23 is out of context

What context would that be, seller?

The link I gave

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=829917

In my post,

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=166961&view=findpost&p=3161988

displays the entire surah, beginning at verse 1.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of verses 19-20:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, And Manat, the third, the last?

Are these not the three goddesses I said they were? Is there something in the surah that makes them somebody else instead? Are we not being invited to contemplate them?

What about the laugh line, verses 21-22?

What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division!

Please point to where in the surah the context makes this something other than mockery based on the goddesses' gender.

And of course, the remaining verse which I quoted:

They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of this passage to something other than Mohammed preaching that human beings made up these goddesses, these fictitious goddesses.

Was there something else I said about the passages that was falsified by the context? Please tell me what, and point me to the appropriate place(s) in the surah.

Thank you for your help with clarifying this.

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AdealJustice

What context would that be, seller?

The link I gave

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=829917

In my post,

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=166961&view=findpost&p=3161988

displays the entire surah, beginning at verse 1.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of verses 19-20:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, And Manat, the third, the last?

Are these not the three goddesses I said they were? Is there something in the surah that makes them somebody else instead? Are we not being invited to contemplate them?

What about the laugh line, verses 21-22?

What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division!

Please point to where in the surah the context makes this something other than mockery based on the goddesses' gender.

And of course, the remaining verse which I quoted:

They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of this passage to something other than Mohammed preaching that human beings made up these goddesses, these fictitious goddesses.

Was there something else I said about the passages that was falsified by the context? Please tell me what, and point me to the appropriate place(s) in the surah.

Thank you for your help with clarifying this.

Read before that aswell.

and nice smart ***/ smerky replies. im at a friends but will look more into this later

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ChloeB

What context would that be, seller?

The link I gave

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=829917

In my post,

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=166961&view=findpost&p=3161988

displays the entire surah, beginning at verse 1.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of verses 19-20:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, And Manat, the third, the last?

Are these not the three goddesses I said they were? Is there something in the surah that makes them somebody else instead? Are we not being invited to contemplate them?

What about the laugh line, verses 21-22?

What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division!

Please point to where in the surah the context makes this something other than mockery based on the goddesses' gender.

And of course, the remaining verse which I quoted:

They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Please point to where in the surah the context changes the meaning of this passage to something other than Mohammed preaching that human beings made up these goddesses, these fictitious goddesses.

Was there something else I said about the passages that was falsified by the context? Please tell me what, and point me to the appropriate place(s) in the surah.

Thank you for your help with clarifying this.

I think he was saying out of context meaning how they turned the verses into satanic verses was taken out of context.

Seller said: Prophet says that Allah is in no physical form and we shouldn't pray to these idols. basicly there is nogod but Allah and he is in no physical form.

That seems about like what you're saying above that he was against them praying to them, calling them idols.

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MARAB0D

I think he was saying out of context meaning how they turned the verses into satanic verses was taken out of context.

Seller said: Prophet says that Allah is in no physical form and we shouldn't pray to these idols. basicly there is nogod but Allah and he is in no physical form.

That seems about like what you're saying above that he was against them praying to them, calling them idols.

This entire surah or whatever is about Muhammad, explaining to someone what monotheism is, and that the pagan gods or godesses are just human invention and do not possess any powers. It is exactly the concept which Judaism and Christianity follow, except they call Allah YHVH or Father. Allah is God-Creator, the entire Created World is supposed to be his physical form. Monotheistic God is One precisely because there are no other gods. I cannot understand what the confusion is about?

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ChloeB

This entire surah or whatever is about Muhammad, explaining to someone what monotheism is, and that the pagan gods or godesses are just human invention and do not possess any powers. It is exactly the concept which Judaism and Christianity follow, except they call Allah YHVH or Father. Allah is God-Creator, the entire Created World is supposed to be his physical form. Monotheistic God is One precisely because there are no other gods. I cannot understand what the confusion is about?

I know, WTF? I have no idea, that's pretty much what they all say all the way through, trying to worship other gods = bad, our God = good. Are we supposedly discovering some hidden secret here about monotheism? I think not. Eight bits seems to think he's knocking them because they're female.

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MARAB0D

I know, WTF? I have no idea, that's pretty much what they all say all the way through, trying to worship other gods = bad, our God = good. Are we supposedly discovering some hidden secret here about monotheism? I think not. Eight bits seems to think he's knocking them because they're female.

Islam is the absolutely most progressive religion in the world and history! This is why Nietzsche admired it. It is the top of Monotheism - which openly through its Prophet claims that Allah has no physical image, shape or form; in other words Muhammad teaches that Allah is NOTHING. The secret esoteric teaching of Islam, which is Sufism, is practically based on the idea of Atheism - what is the point worshiping to something which does not exist? Read Idris-shakh and you would see what Muhammad's Islam was. The fellow has to hide in Europe, as it is the Islamic Fundamentalists, who are in power in the Islamic world, and their understanding of Muhammad is direct, literate - same as of our home-grown Christian fundies, who "follow the Gospels". Sufis now are practically banned within Islamic countries, even more or less advanced Iran persecutes them - but immediately after Muhammad it was them who were holding this power. People like Omar Khayam, Nisami, Abu Ibn Sinna many others, they all were Sufis, and this is who were all Islamic Engineers, mathemticians, Astronomers, Architects, writers etc, all carriers of culture. But first the Mongols killed them off (they were also nobility, fighters, knights) and then the Fundamentalism drove them into exile. Islam knows also female sufis, and even I knew one like that - who graduated Bukhara Medresse in early 20s, (no matter how surprising this sounds), was fluent in Pharsi, Russian, Arabic, knew Quran by heart in 2 languages and was regularly invited by the believers in Dushanbe to pray (weddings, funerals, births etc), as they did not have any mullah at all. she is dead by now.

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AdealJustice

I know, WTF? I have no idea, that's pretty much what they all say all the way through, trying to worship other gods = bad, our God = good. Are we supposedly discovering some hidden secret here about monotheism? I think not. Eight bits seems to think he's knocking them because they're female.

thanks mara thats what i meant aswell. it is outa context.

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MARAB0D

BTW - one such female sufi we know from 1001 nights, forgot her name - she tells all stories.

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MARAB0D

thanks mara thats what i meant aswell. it is outa context.

It is not out of context! Quran was written for everyone, and as we know the religion is needed to make people obedient. If Muhammad told his nomads that there is no God, this would be same as to announce Anarchy. And indirect, cautious description of Allah as an empty place would be only understood by one who either already knows this or allows for this, not by a Bedouin or Fellah with a shovel. I guess most of biblical prophets knew there is no God, or rather, there is one, but not really existing - but Muhammad was the first prophet who claimed there is no God. Such approach restricts a religion to only Moral contents - while the laymen were recommended to pray 24 times a day :)

Edited by marabod

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