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The Infidel Guy

Any Muslims? or Ex-Muslims?

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MARAB0D

Basically this idea of Allah being Nothing, may well be the reason why immediately after muhammad there was such a spike in Mathematics in Arabic world, as this concept is successfully falling withing the views of our modern Physics and modern Algebra (LOL!!! Al Hebra??? Al Gebra???)

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ChloeB

Islam is the absolutely most progressive religion in the world and history! This is why Nietzsche admired it. It is the top of Monotheism - which openly through its Prophet claims that Allah has no physical image, shape or form; in other words Muhammad teaches that Allah is NOTHING. The secret esoteric teaching of Islam, which is Sufism, is practically based on the idea of Atheism - what is the point worshiping to something which does not exist? Read Idris-shakh and you would see what Muhammad's Islam was. The fellow has to hide in Europe, as it is the Islamic Fundamentalists, who are in power in the Islamic world, and their understanding of Muhammad is direct, literate - same as of our home-grown Christian fundies, who "follow the Gospels". Sufis now are practically banned within Islamic countries, even more or less advanced Iran persecutes them - but immediately after Muhammad it was them who were holding this power. People like Omar Khayam, Nisami, Abu Ibn Sinna many others, they all were Sufis, and this is who were all Islamic Engineers, mathemticians, Astronomers, Architects, writers etc, all carriers of culture. But first the Mongols killed them off (they were also nobility, fighters, knights) and then the Fundamentalism drove them into exile. Islam knows also female sufis, and even I knew one like that - who graduated Bukhara Medresse in early 20s, (no matter how surprising this sounds), was fluent in Pharsi, Russian, Arabic, knew Quran by heart in 2 languages and was regularly invited by the believers in Dushanbe to pray (weddings, funerals, births etc), as they did not have any mullah at all. she is dead by now.

I'll have to read up on Sufis. All I really know is they have something to do with spinning.

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MARAB0D

I'll have to read up on Sufis. All I really know is they have something to do with spinning.

Spinning is a technique, related to pentecostal "speaking tongues" or shaman's dance, a form of meditation and altering the state of consciousness. I am unsure about all Sufis, I thought it was mostly used by dervishes (the travelling sufis, vagrants like Jesus was). I like reading Idris-shakh, need to see what he wrote new. Smart guy!

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ChloeB

Basically this idea of Allah being Nothing, may well be the reason why immediately after muhammad there was such a spike in Mathematics in Arabic world, as this concept is successfully falling withing the views of our modern Physics and modern Algebra (LOL!!! Al Hebra??? Al Gebra???)

Just to throw something out here to see what you think - this idea of nothing, do you think it could have anything to do with what people describe as a cosmic consciousness type thing?

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AdealJustice

It is not out of context! Quran was written for everyone, and as we know the religion is needed to make people obedient. If Muhammad told his nomads that there is no God, this would be same as to announce Anarchy. And indirect, cautious description of Allah as an empty place would be only understood by one who either already knows this or allows for this, not by a Bedouin or Fellah with a shovel. I guess most of biblical prophets knew there is no God, or rather, there is one, but not really existing - but Muhammad was the first prophet who claimed there is no God. Such approach restricts a religion to only Moral contents - while the laymen were recommended to pray 24 times a day :)

lol sorry i din't read your second reply. read it now and i udnerstand what u are saying. hmm this is quite a statement ... i don't know what to think of it but its true its clever and if it isnt than its still clever i'd say

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AdealJustice

Basically this idea of Allah being Nothing, may well be the reason why immediately after muhammad there was such a spike in Mathematics in Arabic world, as this concept is successfully falling withing the views of our modern Physics and modern Algebra (LOL!!! Al Hebra??? Al Gebra???)

Islam in Spain.... very good example of what you are talking about. So much knowlege in one place.

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MARAB0D

Just to throw something out here to see what you think - this idea of nothing, do you think it could have anything to do with what people describe as a cosmic consciousness type thing?

I do not think so, to be honest. Nothing is just nothing - zero, zilch. void, absolut vacuum, non-existence. Nothing has no Conscience at all - like Muhammad said, no shape and no image. Consciousness has nowhere to fit :)

But through the elementary laws of Vector Algebra Nothing can exist in a form of Everything, and this is exactly what "Creation" is about. That part, which was "before" Big bang, but mathematically it was not "before" but rather exists all the time, eternal in its Evolution. Nothing always exists, even when nothing else exists. A bit mind-boggling but this is probably why Muhammad had his headaches, if he went that far that saw Nothing!

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AdealJustice

I do not think so, to be honest. Nothing is just nothing - zero, zilch. void, absolut vacuum, non-existence. Nothing has no Conscience at all - like Muhammad said, no shape and no image. Consciousness has nowhere to fit :)

But through the elementary laws of Vector Algebra Nothing can exist in a form of Everything, and this is exactly what "Creation" is about. That part, which was "before" Big bang, but mathematically it was not "before" but rather exists all the time, eternal in its Evolution. Nothing always exists, even when nothing else exists. A bit mind-boggling but this is probably why Muhammad had his headaches, if he went that far that saw Nothing!

When prophet mohammed said that god is every where in no shape , hears ,sees and knows everything you do think and dream meaning Allah is everywhere in no physical form filling everyinche of spaces in the universe. this is interesting ...

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MARAB0D

I'll make an experiment with Quran! I would read it AS IF the author is a hard core Atheist, surrounded by thousands of dumb believers, expecting from him to teach them about Allah and how it is better for them to pray and behave themselves... It would take me some time though :)

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AdealJustice

I'll make an experiment with Quran! I would read it AS IF the author is a hard core Atheist, surrounded by thousands of dumb believers, expecting from him to teach them about Allah and how it is better for them to pray and behave themselves... It would take me some time though :)

a long time... and tough time too lol. im wanna read up on this more aswell

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ChloeB

I do not think so, to be honest. Nothing is just nothing - zero, zilch. void, absolut vacuum, non-existence. Nothing has no Conscience at all - like Muhammad said, no shape and no image. Consciousness has nowhere to fit :)

But through the elementary laws of Vector Algebra Nothing can exist in a form of Everything, and this is exactly what "Creation" is about. That part, which was "before" Big bang, but mathematically it was not "before" but rather exists all the time, eternal in its Evolution. Nothing always exists, even when nothing else exists. A bit mind-boggling but this is probably why Muhammad had his headaches, if he went that far that saw Nothing!

Hahaha! No kidding! I bet it would give him headaches. It is mind boggling.

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MARAB0D

Hahaha! No kidding! I bet it would give him headaches. It is mind boggling.

You know, I could be a bit overstretching this universal Consciousness... Not that I think this place may be ruled by some superb mind, no. But I am a bit uncertain about the origins of Nothing itself - and is this nothing only One? Or it is One per Universe? If the latter, then these origins, primary origins of nothing itself can have some relation to some Conscience... But this is of course far beyond the Allah, remains to be seen :)

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ChloeB

When prophet mohammed said that god is every where in no shape , hears ,sees and knows everything you do think and dream meaning Allah is everywhere in no physical form filling everyinche of spaces in the universe. this is interesting ...

:D Immanent - I like that much better than a transcendent separate God up in the sky somewhere.

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ChloeB

You know, I could be a bit overstretching this universal Consciousness... Not that I think this place may be ruled by some superb mind, no. But I am a bit uncertain about the origins of Nothing itself - and is this nothing only One? Or it is One per Universe? If the latter, then these origins, primary origins of nothing itself can have some relation to some Conscience... But this is of course far beyond the Allah, remains to be seen :)

LOL, I'm feeling the question coming - what is real? No I don't take it that way either some superb mind ruling.

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MARAB0D

LOL, I'm feeling the question coming - what is real? No I don't take it that way either some superb mind ruling.

With no shadow of doubts - "real" is something which belongs to Objective Reality and what we can reflect in our Subjective Realities. Moon is real. Salary is real. Computer is real. God is not real - because we do not reflect God in our Subjective Realities. All what is real can be somehow copied, photographed and reflected by our 5 senses. [V I Lenin, Materialism and Empirio-Criticism].

However the Objective reality belongs to our own Reference Frame, and can be unique only if our reference frame itself is unique and only one. Imagining a possible multiplicity of the worlds, one can imagine one Objective Reality for all of them OR a multiplicity of the Objective Realities. In the latter case Monotheism (one God-Creator, one Nothing) may be substituted for their multiplicity too. Obviously, this is only hypothetical, and can be confirmed by practice only upon us leaving this present Objective reality - which has not happened to me yet, despite I am very curious to find out.

Edited by marabod

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eight bits
Eight bits seems to think he's knocking them because they're female.

That is the meaning of verses 21-22. If Allah's creatures can have sons, then their creator would not have daughters.

Given a choice, a pre-modern Arabian tribesman would prefer to have a son rather than a daughter. Allah, obviously, would have his choice, and would choose as a pre-modern Arabian tribesman would choose, except that Allah chose not to have any offspring at all. But definitely no girls.

nice smart ***/ smerky replies
it is outa context

Then we have a problem, seller. I gave the context twice.

The passage says what it says. Nothing in the rest of the surah changes the meaning of the verses quoted. These verses were chosen for special scrutiny long ago by scholars faithful to Islam. They have been discussed as a unit for centuries since then.

We have a choice. We can discuss the passage, or we can discuss each other.

If you have no rebuttal other than to say that I have been deceptive, smart-orificed and smerky about the context of the passage, then you have had your say, and our conversation ends there.

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momentarylapseofreason

:ph34r:

any way

there is too many great things about prophet Muhammad , if i start now i might take weeks , the problem is that English is not my main language and it take me too much time

but for a start you must understand that Muhammad have revolutionized the state of womens at his time , he didn't lower it , womens at his society was treated so bad they where considered some kind of a shame , they was not equal to men at all ,

for example the polygamy is allowed in Islam up to 4 wives , now anti-islam people found it easy to bash the religion claiming that prophet Muhammad have made this rule to oppress women , while in fact polygamy was already exist at his time and popular with out limits and what he did is limiting it to only 4 when it was okay for any man to marry as much as he want , some people had more than 10 wives , now imagine a Muslim with 10 wives and now Muhammad telling him you need to divorce most of your wives , or some one who want to become a Muslim he need to do the same thing , can you put your self in prophet Muhammad position and see if you can handle such a thing

also off course the polygamy in Islam is just allowed it's not required , the main form is only one wive

so what Muhammad did is changing the society from accepting even 200 wive for a man into only one

I don't give a hoot about polygamy as long as it was consenting adults. It sometimes made sense, or served a purpose back then, maybe even now. But pedophilia ? There was NO CONSENT between a child and an adult. The child did not desire intimate relations with a grandfather type . I guarantee you she was not HOT FOR MUHAMMAD

Oh, I assure you, that I have weeks of time. It's more productive and educational than watching the telly, although I enjoy some of that too. :yes:

If kids can understand the Quran, then so can we. Right? ;)

So do it for Allah. Make time. I'm serious.

Edited by momentarylapseofreason

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ChloeB

When one looks at the Quran and the old testament there are a lot of similarities I'm seeing as far as how strict religion is and how far out of the realm of human decency and religion separate each other. You would think religion is meant to be good when in reality it is nothing except the deception of man and a means to divide and concur. Religion is a tool that man uses and it's not for good. If we could hear and see god, he would be doing the double triple face palm ;)

Okay good point......now I've been looking for infidels, but seems I was searching the wrong word, but idolators. So here's some verses worth discussing that I'm reading as it saying to kill them unless they convert:

Sura 9

4. Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye [Muslims] have a treaty, and

who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against

you. [As for these], fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah

loveth those who keep their duty [unto Him].

5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find

them, and take them [captive], and besiege them, and prepare for them each

ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then

leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

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fullywired

We have a choice. We can discuss the passage, or we can discuss each other.

If you have no rebuttal other than to say that I have been deceptive, smart-orificed and smerky about the context of the passage, then you have had your say, and our conversation ends there.

It's the old lawyers trick ,if you can't discredit the evidence ,try to discredit the witness

fullywired

Edited by fullywired

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ChloeB

To be fair, I thought I'd also add that these verses are also in there:

Sura 60

8. Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

9. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends.

Edited by ChloeB

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AdealJustice

To be fair, I thought I'd also add that these verses are also in there:

Sura 60

8. Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

9. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends.

i was just gonna ask if you could post the stuff before and after the other verses you posted.

Fight war only in defense and there are also rules ,etc for war i will post when i get the chance.

By the way i wasn't trying to discredit you. I meant read the surrah like i, we did and find out what all that means. read the posts in the last few pages to see what we are talking about. Nor did i use an old lawyers technique

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AdealJustice

:ph34r:

I don't give a hoot about polygamy as long as it was consenting adults. It sometimes made sense, or served a purpose back then, maybe even now. But pedophilia ? There was NO CONSENT between a child and an adult. The child did not desire intimate relations with a grandfather type . I guarantee you she was not HOT FOR MUHAMMAD

Oh, I assure you, that I have weeks of time. It's more productive and educational than watching the telly, although I enjoy some of that too. :yes:

If kids can understand the Quran, then so can we. Right? ;)

So do it for Allah. Make time. I'm serious.

We've already been through this about the true age of aisha if would would care to look back to the pages i think 60-63 i think maybe a bit before that. but we've delt with and i've posted evidence that she was 13 at the age of marriage and 18 or 19 when the marriage was consumated. So prophet mohammed pbuh did not commit pedophilia. if you can prove me other wise than please enlighten me. thanks. You have weeks of time lol i started reading the quran when i was 6.... than translations, some hadiths, bibles and other scriptures and islamic books. i don't think a few weeks are enough to understand all of the quran.

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ChloeB

i was just gonna ask if you could post the stuff before and after the other verses you posted.

Fight war only in defense and there are also rules ,etc for war i will post when i get the chance.

I don't know how much you want me to post so here's the link to the whole thing. You meant those first verses I posted, right?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

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AdealJustice

I don't know how much you want me to post so here's the link to the whole thing. You meant those first verses I posted, right?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

yup. thanks. reading this right now lol currently at school gonna get home in a couple of hours than will post more stuff aswell

i found some rules ,etc and ethics on war in Islam. check it out here's the website... and a little part of the article

Islam and the ethics of war

Islam sets down clear guidelines as to when war is ethically right, and clear guidelines as to how such a war should be conducted. In brief, war is permitted:

in self defence

when other nations have attacked an Islamic state

if another state is oppressing its own Muslims

War should be conducted:

in a disciplined way

so as to avoid injuring non-combatants

with the minimum necessary force

without anger

with humane treatment towards prisoners of war

Muslims must only wage war according to the principles of Allah's justice.

"Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan." Quran 4:76

Islam allows war in self-defence (Quran 22:39), to defend Islam (rather than to spread it), to protect those who have been removed from their homes by force because they are Muslims (Quran 22:40), and to protect the innocent who are being oppressed (Quran 4:75).

just a bit of the article check it out and will post some passages right from the quran aswell when i am home.

also chloeb do you know who translated it the surah.? here's a list of surahs but i could find the immunity in their. http://www.iqrasearch.com/surah-Qamar(Moon)-translation.html

also here is another list http://voiceofquran.com/q_list.php?zaban=e&q=qret and i also could find it here aswell.

just editing i found it but i think they have different name sbut same surrah i think its the ninth. hmm reading both in different translations to see if they are any different.

Edited by seller2006

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ChloeB

yup. thanks. reading this right now lol currently at school gonna get home in a couple of hours than will post more stuff aswell

i found some rules ,etc and ethics on war in Islam. check it out here's the website... and a little part of the article

Islam and the ethics of war

Islam sets down clear guidelines as to when war is ethically right, and clear guidelines as to how such a war should be conducted. In brief, war is permitted:

in self defence

when other nations have attacked an Islamic state

if another state is oppressing its own Muslims

War should be conducted:

in a disciplined way

so as to avoid injuring non-combatants

with the minimum necessary force

without anger

with humane treatment towards prisoners of war

Muslims must only wage war according to the principles of Allah's justice.

"Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan." Quran 4:76

Islam allows war in self-defence (Quran 22:39), to defend Islam (rather than to spread it), to protect those who have been removed from their homes by force because they are Muslims (Quran 22:40), and to protect the innocent who are being oppressed (Quran 4:75).

just a bit of the article check it out and will post some passages right from the quran aswell when i am home.

also chloeb do you know who translated it the surah.? here's a list of surahs but i could find the immunity in their. http://www.iqrasearch.com/surah-Qamar(Moon)-translation.html

also here is another list http://voiceofquran.com/q_list.php?zaban=e&q=qret and i also could find it here aswell.

just editing i found it but i think they have different name sbut same surrah i think its the ninth. hmm reading both in different translations to see if they are any different.

I don't know who translated it, but here are 3 translations of the same Sura 9:5. I don't see anything in this about killing for defense.

009.005

YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

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