A New Undersnding of 9/11

[blue triangle]

Blue Triangle, you obviously have a huge self belief in yourself and your theories, which is cool, each to their own as the saying goes. I must say I am confused about what the outcome of your theory and the WTC event is all about? Now not to sound disrespectful to those that lost their lives, family members etc on 9/11, which truly was a deplorable act, but there have been greater catastrophies both natural and man made since JC shuffled off this mortal coil that would seem equally or more worthy of a godly message?. Why are you hellbent on pointing to 9/11 and to what purpose?

I remain confused I'm afraid, please enlighten me.

Hi Janglin Jack!

Well, natural disasters happen all the time, but 9/11 was unique in many ways.

1. First of all, it took place in front of the entire world.

2. Secondly, it took place in two of the busiest, most politicaly and economically important cities in the world. If the airplnes had crashed into two hi-rise appartment blocks in Cleveland, that would have been big news, of course, but nothing on the scale of 9/11.

3. The two building complexes that were hit were the nerve centres of the USA's financial and military operations. They were already very famous before 9/11 and symbolised the USA's economic and military might, and underpinned the USA's hegemony over the world.

4. Many people in the rich west place their trust in the strength of their government to maintain their standard of living. The twin towers and Pentagon were also symbols of that (misplaced) trust.

5. The news that day, and for many days afterwards, was dominated by 9/11 and its aftermath. In the UK it was voted the most dramatic TV footage af all time a few years ago. Therefore 9/11 has had a huge impact on the psyche of modern man. It burst the bubble of false security that many people in the west felt, including many 'conservative Christians', and exposed them to the reality of a world in crisis. No longer would they look at starving children in Africa, or murdered villagers in South America, and feel that this could never happen in the 'first world' of the USA and Europe. It woke them up.

6. The New Bible Code also links 9/11 to many, many biblical themes. In fact, the entire Bible, at one level, was written in preparation for 9/11. These themes are all related to man's separation from God and the many baleful consequences of separation.

7. In attacking these symbols of the USA's military and economic might, Christ was reenacting His own crucifixion by symbolically destroying the beast that controls us (symbolised by those two structures, but in reality, existing within our own hearts), pointing to the very source of our troubles (our own greed and fear), fulfilling many biblical prophecies, and by doing all of this, showing us that He controlled the evolution of the Bible and is now in control of our destiny.

[mandy1979]

omg

[digitalartist]

blue triangle you made these comments early on in this topic:

Blue Triangle Post

I was 'awakened' in 1998, then trained for 3 1/2 years before being given a'key' (a passage from 1 Thessalonians) that showed how to properly decode the NIV and the details of the attacks themselves

Blue Triangle Post 2

I was trained through a combination of visions, dreams, synchronicities and other spiritual experiences.

They seem to be at odds with your own comments found on the main page of your site from 2003 (c/o internet archives)

blue triangle site on internet archive

I discovered the New Bible Code by a process which involved considerable assistance from the encoder Himself, and which led me to the findings of two researchers, who work with the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures, and from whom I have learned much. They are Vernon Jenkins and Richard McGough

On here, you refer to your training as completely spiritual based while on your own site, some 6 years ago, you indicated the assistance of research done by others.

[swollen_ostrich]

You keep mentioning that synchronicity is "meaningful coincidence" - I think you are leaving out the "meaningful" part in your theory.

Here's an example of Syncronicity from Jung himself:

""A young woman I was treating had, at a critical moment, a dream in which she was given a golden scarab. While she was telling me this dream, I sat with my back to the closed window. Suddenly I heard a noise behind me, like a gentle tapping. I turned round and saw a flying insect knocking against the window-pane from the outside. I opened the window and caught the creature in the air as it flew in. It was the nearest analogy to a golden scarab one finds in our latitudes, a scarabaeid beetle, the common rose-chafer (Cetonia aurata), which, contrary to its usual habits had evidently felt the urge to get into a dark room at this particular moment. I must admit that nothing like it ever happened to me before or since."

This synchronistic event is nothing like what you are proposing.

Another phrase I see in regards to synchronicity is this:

"To count as synchronicity, the events should be unlikely to occur together by chance."

All examples of true Jungian synchronicity that I can find are things that either happened within a short period of time to each other, or events where the same thing happened almost exactly as they did before.

Let me use one of your own examples - you tie the 9/11 attacks with a reference to the sacrificing of a bull in the bible. I am almost certain that there are other major works of literature, religious or otherwise, that feature the sacrifice of a bull. This fails the "unlikely to occur together by chance" part of synchronicity, as you could then link the 9/11 attacks to any number of other works. There is no coincidence here.

Also, if you actually read (or understand) Jung, you will notice that the examples he gives of synchronicity are obvious coincidences - in other words, you DON'T NEED A KEY to see the coincidence of the events.

There is no synchronicity in any part of your theory.

Edited November 13, 2009 by swollen_ostrich

[blue triangle]

blue triangle you made these comments early on in this topic:

Blue Triangle Post

Blue Triangle Post 2

They seem to be at odds with your own comments found on the main page of your site from 2003 (c/o internet archives)

blue triangle site on internet archive

On here, you refer to your training as completely spiritual based while on your own site, some 6 years ago, you indicated the assistance of research done by others.

In all the years I have spent arguing my case on forums, this is without doubt the most laughable, mean spirited, sabotage attempt I have ever come across. Because I respect their work and have learned from them, I went out of my way to acknowledge my debt to Vernon Jenkins and Richard McGough on my website. I did this in 2003 when the site was launched and I still do it to this today: just look on my introductory page. Do you honestly think I have to mention them in this forum too? When I say I was spiritually trained, that is exactly what I mean. I was trained, assigned this task then began work on it before I had heard of Vernon Jenkins or Richard McGough. I wasn't even on the internet (apart from occasional library use) until 2003.

Just so you are absolutely sure about the chronology of my discoveries, here is a timeline.

April 1998 to Nov. 2001 - trained to find the code.

Nov. 2001 - began to work on code, initially concentrating on word/number connections relating to 9/11 and within the NIV.

Dec. 2001 - discovered work of Vernon Jenkins and realised that there was a third, geometric element.

late 2002 - discovered work of Richard McGough and saw that his 'Logos Star' integrated with my Creation Snowflake.

Apart from the considerable assistance of the Lord, the code is substantially my own, as it a) almost completely relies on English gematria (Vernon and Richard work with Hebrew/Greek systems), b)concerns 9/11 (neither Vernon or Richard have done any work in this area), c) uses a unique two-system decoding method, d) uses a novel system of gematria unique to the New Bible Code.

Vernon is a trailblazer and, as well as learning some numerical geometry from him (which I then took in a new direction for my own work with my use of fractal snowflakes, independently of Richard) and some valuable techniques for manipulating numbers, I also began to learn the difference between rigourous analysis and the kind of amateurish numerology that characterised a lot of my early efforts. Vernon, Richard and I all know each other and have shared discoveries in the past. I usually alert them first whenever I put a new page up that I think will interest them.

I'm here to share my discoveries and discuss them with people. Why on earth are you here?

BT

Edited November 13, 2009 by blue triangle

[blue triangle]

You keep mentioning that synchronicity is "meaningful coincidence" - I think you are leaving out the "meaningful" part in your theory.

Here's an example of Syncronicity from Jung himself:

""A young woman I was treating had, at a critical moment, a dream in which she was given a golden scarab. While she was telling me this dream, I sat with my back to the closed window. Suddenly I heard a noise behind me, like a gentle tapping. I turned round and saw a flying insect knocking against the window-pane from the outside. I opened the window and caught the creature in the air as it flew in. It was the nearest analogy to a golden scarab one finds in our latitudes, a scarabaeid beetle, the common rose-chafer (Cetonia aurata), which, contrary to its usual habits had evidently felt the urge to get into a dark room at this particular moment. I must admit that nothing like it ever happened to me before or since."

This synchronistic event is nothing like what you are proposing.

With respect, I think you are wrong.

I often use this very famous example from Jung's life myself as an illustration of what Jung meant by synchronicity. Another example would be the well known clustering of elevens around the 9/11 event:

The date was the 11th, flight 11 hit first, the towers resembled 11, they had 110 storeys, Manhattan Island, on which the towers stood, was discovered on September the 11th, etc, etc, etc. Just as Jung's rose-chafer beetle and the dream of his patient were brought together in space and time, so were the elevens permeating and surrounding the 9/11 event. You might argue that the clustering of elevens around 9/11 was chance and those who disagree are guilty of confirmation bias. But a sceptic could say the same about Jung's claimed synchronicity. However, once the meaning contained within the event is fully appreciated, chance seems much less likely, either for Jung's experience or for 9/11.

And just as Jung's synchronicity was arranged for the purpose of delivering a life-changing message to his patient, so the much larger and more extensive wave of synchronicities that attended the events of September the 11th, 2001 had a message for the entire world.

BT

[swollen_ostrich]

The date was the 11th, flight 11 hit first, the towers resembled 11, they had 110 storeys, Manhattan Island, on which the towers stood, was discovered on September the 11th, etc, etc, etc.

I will give you the date and I will give you the flight 11 thing as COINCIDENCES ONLY. Again, there is no "meaningful" connection between them and anything else. All examples of snychronicity are meaningful in and of themselves. They do not need a connection to a book written 2000+ years ago as a key to their understanding.

However, the fact that the towers "resemble" 11 (which is stretching it, as the towers weren't of the same height due to towers on top of one of them), and the "Manhattan island discovered on September the 11th" (which it wasn't - the correct date that history gives us is September 4, 1609) I won't give you. Also, I will not give you the "110 stories" thing, either. The fact that they each have 110 stories and that 110 is 11x10 is NOT MEANINGFUL. Like I said, you are missing the "meaningful" part.

You might argue that the clustering of elevens around 9/11 was chance and those who disagree are guilty of confirmation bias. But a sceptic could say the same about Jung's claimed synchronicity. However, once the meaning contained within the event is fully appreciated, chance seems much less likely, either for Jung's experience or for 9/11.

I find it ironic that the very things you have been using as examples of your perceived "synchronicity" throughout this thread are some of the best examples of confirmation bias I have seen in some time!

For example - all the numerology stuff, the math you have to do to show the "elevenness" of things, the way you have to spell names a certain way to make them fit, etc. You are cherry picking and massaging facts to match your belief.

[blue triangle]

I will give you the date and I will give you the flight 11 thing as COINCIDENCES ONLY. Again, there is no "meaningful" connection between them and anything else. All examples of snychronicity are meaningful in and of themselves. They do not need a connection to a book written 2000+ years ago as a key to their understanding.

However, the fact that the towers "resemble" 11 (which is stretching it, as the towers weren't of the same height due to towers on top of one of them), and the "Manhattan island discovered on September the 11th" (which it wasn't - the correct date that history gives us is September 4, 1609) I won't give you. Also, I will not give you the "110 stories" thing, either. The fact that they each have 110 stories and that 110 is 11x10 is NOT MEANINGFUL. Like I said, you are missing the "meaningful" part.

I think what you're trying to say here is 'I disagree'.

There is great meaning in the 9/11 event. The clustering of numbers, especially 11, around 9/11 leads to an understanding of what was achieved on that day and connects it to biblical prophecy. How? Through biblical numerics and gematria. The number 11 is biblically related to disorganisation, disorder, disintegration and imperfection, according to Bullinger, something that can easily be confirmed through a study of scripture. Biblical narratives and prophecies related to 9/11 are earmarked with 11 through synchronicity (for instance, the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11, the two witnesses in Revelation 11, Jesus overturning the tables of the moneychangers in Mark 11, etc, etc, etc). Eleven is also the reduced value of the word 'Jesus', the first of many clues to the meaning contained in the event.

You can deny that 9/11 was meaningful if you like and you can turn a blind eye to the patterns of meaning woven into it (which is itself a form of confirmation bias), but you're going to have to do better than emboldened, capitalised ranting. Let's have a reasoned discussion (without the eye-jarring emboldened capitals).

I find it ironic that the very things you have been using as examples of your perceived "synchronicity" throughout this thread are some of the best examples of confirmation bias I have seen in some time!

Seeing patterns that aren't there is a form of confirmation bias, but so is turning a blind eye to patterns that are there.

For example - all the numerology stuff, the math you have to do to show the "elevenness" of things, the way you have to spell names a certain way to make them fit, etc. You are cherry picking and massaging facts to match your belief.

Not at all. The names I use for gematria are either the official names or very popular ones. Regarding bin Laden, there are indeed variant forms of spelling for Arabic names transliterated into English, but the spelling I use is by far the most common ( 6 million Google hits for 'Osama bin Laden' but only 400000 hits for 'Usama bin Laden', for instance) and the names I use for him are 1) the given name and family surname, and 2) the name bin Laden himself uses to sign documentsd. The full name is also encoded, incidentally, but I have not yet put any information about it on my site.

Edited November 15, 2009 by blue triangle

[swollen_ostrich]

the two witnesses in Revelation 11

Ok, let's start a reasonable discussion here....

Please tell me how this chapter of Revelation ties into the 9/11 tragedy?

[digitalartist]

In all the years I have spent arguing my case on forums, this is without doubt the most laughable, mean spirited, sabotage attempt I have ever come across. Because I respect their work and have learned from them, I went out of my way to acknowledge my debt to Vernon Jenkins and Richard McGough on my website. I did this in 2003 when the site was launched and I still do it to this today: just look on my introductory page. Do you honestly think I have to mention them in this forum too? When I say I was spiritually trained, that is exactly what I mean. I was trained, assigned this task then began work on it before I had heard of Vernon Jenkins or Richard McGough. I wasn't even on the internet (apart from occasional library use) until 2003.

When you say spiritually trained, most people don't automatically equate that with research done by others. I'd be willing to bet that spiritually trained to the average person means training received by God, some higher power or a supernatural entity. That coupled with the reasonable estmate that 99% of those visiting UM would not actually go to your site and see what you have put there does indicate that you need to mention them here 1 - to alleviate misconceptions and 2 - to give credit where credit is due. I chose the earliest record of your site as the reference point mostly from past experience. What I am referring to is that most people are not aware of the internet archive and over time information, statements and messages they post today can be vastly different from what was on those early versions of their site. Also had you understood what I wrote, you would have realized I said they seem (appear) to be at odds. No where did I call you a liar. In fact using the wording I did allows you to, in a civil manner, explain why they are not at odds or to explain that you had missed giving credit for some of the information you received, but you immediately jumped in with a statement that my post was an attempt at sabotage.

The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks

(apologies to Shakespear for the slight change)

Just so you are absolutely sure about the chronology of my discoveries, here is a timeline.

April 1998 to Nov. 2001 - trained to find the code.

Nov. 2001 - began to work on code, initially concentrating on word/number connections relating to 9/11 and within the NIV.

Dec. 2001 - discovered work of Vernon Jenkins and realised that there was a third, geometric element.

late 2002 - discovered work of Richard McGough and saw that his 'Logos Star' integrated with my Creation Snowflake.

Apart from the considerable assistance of the Lord, the code is substantially my own, as it a) almost completely relies on English gematria (Vernon and Richard work with Hebrew/Greek systems), b)concerns 9/11 (neither Vernon or Richard have done any work in this area), c) uses a unique two-system decoding method, d) uses a novel system of gematria unique to the New Bible Code.

Vernon is a trailblazer and, as well as learning some numerical geometry from him (which I then took in a new direction for my own work with my use of fractal snowflakes, independently of Richard) and some valuable techniques for manipulating numbers, I also began to learn the difference between rigourous analysis and the kind of amateurish numerology that characterised a lot of my early efforts. Vernon, Richard and I all know each other and have shared discoveries in the past. I usually alert them first whenever I put a new page up that I think will interest them.

Posting that information didn't seem too difficult. It rectifies giving credit and clears up any misconceptions that might have arisen from your earlier spiritually trained statement(s).

I'm here to share my discoveries and discuss them with people. Why on earth are you here?

BT

Discussion by it's very nature can be between those with the same beliefs or those whose beliefs differ. If you came here thinking discussions would be with people that would not question what you post then I am sorry for the rude awakening.

[blue triangle]

Ok, let's start a reasonable discussion here....

Okay!

Please tell me how this chapter of Revelation ties into the 9/11 tragedy?

I believe that the chapter on the two witnesses is related to 9/11 because certain themes and numbers are clustered at this location:

1. The number 11 (reduced value of 'Jesus' and with biblical connotations of disintegration, disorder and imperfection) features

- through the chapter number, 11 (a common feature of the code)

- through the gematria of the verse that describes the destruction of the two witnesses, Rev. 11:7

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

The ordinal value of this verse is 1265, or 11 x 115.

Note that the code is very precise about which verses have ordinal values that are multiples of 11. Those verses that describe the destruction of the subject of the prophecy (or occasionally some other action taken against the subject) are those that are encoded with elevenness, a phenomenon that is found again and again in the NIV, and is statistically improbable.

2. The idea of 'twoness' the number two signifying difference and duality, which leads to opposition, enmity, oppression, etc. The twin towers were symbols of this idea, and in fact were born of this idea, the source of all man's troubles. In Rev. 11 they are described as the two witnesses, the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

There are other links to 9/11 in the fact that Revelation 11 describes the two witnesses as being powerful, of their bodies lying in the streets of the great city and of their having many enemies. Note also that there were almost exactly 35 years between the constucton of the towers and their destruction. In Rev. 11 the witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years. Finally, the ordinal value of 'two witnesses' is 191.

BT

Edited November 17, 2009 by blue triangle

[swollen_ostrich]

- through the chapter number, 11 (a common feature of the code)

You may want to do some historical fact checking here - the chaptering of the bible was not the same today as it was at the time of its writing. In fact, the bible has been "rechaptered and versed" many times - 1st around the time of the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, then during the creation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the bible 50 years or so later, then again by Archbishop Stephen Langton in 1227.

See here for more details.

- through the gematria of the verse that describes the destruction of the two witnesses, Rev. 11:7

“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

The ordinal value of this verse is 1265, or 11 x 115.

First off, what is the significance of the number 115? There are an infinite number of numerals that can be evenly divided even by 11 and an infinite number of numerals that can be divided by 11 and leave a remainder. So what? Just as an illustration - there are about 31,173 verses in the NIV - divide that by 11 and you get 2833.9 - so, since the chapter 11 is "significant", what about the verses? See what I'm getting at - out of 2833 verses, I will lay you odds you can find some that also fit into your "theory".

Also, does this work with other translations of the bible, or just the NIV? If just the NIV, why is that translation so important? It's one of the most recent translations and was a thought-to-thought translation - a method of translation keeps the menaing intact, but adds a lot of sentence restructuring from the original text. Which means that, though the ideas are accurate, the text is not necessarily in the same structure of the original.

Note that the code is very precise about which verses have ordinal values that are multiples of 11. Those verses that describe the destruction of the subject of the prophecy (or occasionally some other action taken against the subject) are those that are encoded with elevenness, a phenomenon that is found again and again in the NIV, and is statistically improbable.

Can you explain to me why E. W. Bullinger assigned the number 11 the meaning of imbalance, etc? In numerology, 11 is a symbol of purity and balance.

2. The idea of 'twoness' the number two signifying difference and duality, which leads to opposition, enmity, oppression, etc. The twin towers were symbols of this idea, and in fact were born of this idea, the source of all man's troubles. In Rev. 11 they are described as the two witnesses, the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

How do you come up with the "two witnesses" symbolizing the twin towers? Are you privy to some information that hundreds of years worth of bible experts aren't?

All reputable study of Revelation 11 that I can find refer to the "two witnesses" as two prophets, and tie the "two olive trees" to Zechariah 4:2-3, 4:14 - the bible is full of motifs from the old testament that are then used in the new testament. It's common. All references to the "two witnesses" specifically refer to them as people. There is no reason to believe they are symbolic of two towers built 2000 years later.

Further more, the "two witnesses" are most commonly believed to be symbolic of prophets from the old testament, most commonly Elijah, Moses, or Enoch.

There are other links to 9/11 in the fact that Revelation 11 describes the two witnesses as being powerful, of their bodies lying in the streets of the great city and of their having many enemies. Note also that there were almost exactly 35 years between the constucton of the towers and their destruction. In Rev. 11 the witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years. Finally, the ordinal value of 'two witnesses' is 191.

The "great city" is Jerusalem. The 3.5 years of ministry for the " two witnesses" corresponds to the "42 months" that Jerusalem is held by the gentiles in this same chapter. Everyone has enemies. What is the significance of 191?

[blue triangle]

You may want to do some historical fact checking here - the chaptering of the bible was not the same today as it was at the time of its writing. In fact, the bible has been "rechaptered and versed" many times - 1st around the time of the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, then during the creation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the bible 50 years or so later, then again by Archbishop Stephen Langton in 1227.

Although interesting, none of the history of the evolution of the Bible is relevant. The chapterisation and versification of the NIV Bible as it is today is the rock on which the New Bible Code stands.

First off, what is the significance of the number 115?

The important fact is that the number 1265 is divisible by 11. The other divisor, 115, has some interesting gematria attached to it, some of which might be relevant, but this is of secondary importance here. In the NIV, verses thematically related to 9/11 repeatedly turn out to be multiples of 11, a confluence of number and meaning that is statistically improbable and designed to catch our attention and stimulate further investigation.

There are an infinite number of numerals that can be evenly divided even by 11 and an infinite number of numerals that can be divided by 11 and leave a remainder. So what?

Yes, if you divide infinity by 11, you still have infinity. Yet there are only a finite quantity of numbers that can be extracted from the Bible, and some of these are more high-profile than others. What I find is that the most significant numbers are usually part of the code, often multiples of 11. For instance...

Just as an illustration - there are about 31,173 verses in the NIV - divide that by 11 and you get 2833.9 - so, since the chapter 11 is "significant", what about the verses? See what I'm getting at - out of 2833 verses, I will lay you odds you can find some that also fit into your "theory".

There are precisely 31086 verses in the NIV (16 less than the KJV). 31086 is 11 x 2826.

Also, does this work with other translations of the bible, or just the NIV?

As far as I am aware the vehicle for the New Bible Code is the NIV Bible, although, since the code developed over many hundreds of years (at least 1000 years,in fact, possibly longer), other versions of the Bible contain fragments of the code.

For instance, the KJV Bible begins

In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. And the..

The NIV Bible begins

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the...

The addition of one letter (to 'heaven') in verse 1 and the change from 'and' to 'now' in verse two have the effect of changing the ordinal value of the first 12 words from 463 to 515. This creates the first of the 'Signatures of Christ', thus:

Jesus (s) = 515

which was not present in the KJV. However, the first of three numbers identifying the Creation Snowflake, 252 is present, because the first six words are the same, and these encode the outer rim of the snowflake. The other two numbers (ov of the first 18 words and ov of verse 2) are unique to the NIV, as far as I can tell.

If just the NIV, why is that translation so important? It's one of the most recent translations and was a thought-to-thought translation - a method of translation keeps the menaing intact, but adds a lot of sentence restructuring from the original text. Which means that, though the ideas are accurate, the text is not necessarily in the same structure of the original.

In my opinion, the NIV was probably chosen because

1) it is the most popular moden English translation of the Bible.

2) English is the international language of choice.

3) It was finished only about twenty years before 9/11, which perhaps allowed it to be 'fine tuned' in a way the KJV, for instance, could not have been.

If you were going to place a code in a modern version of the Bible, the English-language NIV is the one you would chose.

The New Bible Code is completely new (as the name implies) and is not related to any other code that may be in the Bible. Many people object to the possibility of a code being in the NIV because they have a prior belief that any code could only have been placed within the original scriptures (which itself should be problematic for them as these were temselves edited many times), or they believe that God would onl have inspiredthe original scriptures. I believe, however, that God inspires us all the time, and has guided the evolution of the Bible and the translation of the NIV (and perhaps the KJV), and the course of world events to send us a powerful message at this critical pass in our march through history.

Can you explain to me why E. W. Bullinger assigned the number 11 the meaning of imbalance, etc? In numerology, 11 is a symbol of purity and balance.

In different times and cultures, numbers have meant different things. In the biblical scheme 12 means perfect government (12 disciples/tribes of Israel under The Lord's guidance), so 11, being 1 less than 12, means imperfection. There are several instances in the Bible, of 11 being associated with imperfection, disorder, etc.. In Genesis 11, God punished man for his hubris in building a tower that 'will reach unto heaven' by confusing his languages and 'scattering him across the earth'.

How do you come up with the "two witnesses" symbolizing the twin towers? Are you privy to some information that hundreds of years worth of bible experts aren't?

The code uses many different symbols for the twin towers: The tower of Babel, a ram with two long horns (Daniel 8), Goliath, felled by a slingshot from David (1 Sam. 17), the fig tree that Jesus withered (Mark 11), the two criminals crucified alongside Jesus (Luke 23), the feet of the disciples washed by Jesus (John 13), the beast (Rev. 13) the two witnesses (Rev. 11), Babylon (Rev. 17), and many others. All are symbolic of the towers in one way or another, either through what they represent(for instance Goliath represented physical might, Babylon greed, etc), or because there were two of them (the two witnesses, the disciples two feet, etc).

All reputable study of Revelation 11 that I can find refer to the "two witnesses" as two prophets, and tie the "two olive trees" to Zechariah 4:2-3, 4:14 - the bible is full of motifs from the old testament that are then used in the new testament. It's common. All references to the "two witnesses" specifically refer to them as people. There is no reason to believe they are symbolic of two towers built 2000 years later.

The bible speaks to us on many levels and passages can be representative of more than one thing. Many areas of biblical study are completely unaffected by the code, although some, most obviously eschatology, certainly are affected. But there are so many schools of thought regarding the end times - milleniumism, amilleniumism, preterism, etc, that most of them have to be wrong anyway!

Further more, the "two witnesses" are most commonly believed to be symbolic of prophets from the old testament, most commonly Elijah, Moses, or Enoch.

I would have to disagree. It's possible that there are multiple meanings to some biblical prophecies (and history is fractal, so some patterns repeat over and again), but I think that most Christians simply read the Bible too literally.

The "great city" is Jerusalem. The 3.5 years of ministry for the " two witnesses" corresponds to the "42 months" that Jerusalem is held by the gentiles in this same chapter. Everyone has enemies. What is the significance of 191?

191 is a numerical anagram of 911.

New York represents Jerusalem for the purpose of the drama created on 9/11. Jesus Christ was crucified in Jerusalem around 33 AD. The terrorist attack of September 11, 2001 were a symbolic crucifixion that marked His Second Coming, 2000 years later.

Edited November 18, 2009 by blue triangle

[swollen_ostrich]

Ok, I'm gonna try a different tack...

Why couldn't all of this elevenness and duality from the bible prophesy the September 11, 1932 crash of Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura, who were major sport aviators of their day? It fits...

1) The two men are the two witnesses, two horns of the bull, two oil lamps, two etc, etc, etc.....

2) Their airplane was shaped like a cross, symbolically signifying the crucifixion

3) Stanisław Wigura comes out to 1110 using this calculator - notice that 11 can be found twice in this number!

4) Franciszek Żwirko comes out to 1128 using this calculator - 11 can be found in this number!

5) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the International Tourist Plane Contest - Challenge 1932 with 461 points - 4+6+1=11

6) On October 16, 1929, Żwirko and Antoni Kocjan set an international FAI altitude record of 4,004 m - 4004/11=364

7) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the challenge 1932 flying an RWD-6 airplane. RWD comes out to 270, 270-6=264, 264/11=24

8) At the time of their deaths, both men were considered heroes in Poland

9) Wigura helped design the RWD series of planes in late 1927, he dies in one on 9/11/1932 - almost 3.5 years later - there's your 3.5 years of the first of the two witnesses

I could go on...

See what I mean?

[blue triangle]

Ok, I'm gonna try a different tack...

Why couldn't all of this elevenness and duality from the bible prophesy the September 11, 1932 crash of Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura, who were major sport aviators of their day? It fits...

1) The two men are the two witnesses, two horns of the bull, two oil lamps, two etc, etc, etc.....

The event wasn't nearly important enough to register on the collective psyche of humankind is the short answer here. I had never heard of it before. It is possible that because of the date there could have been a link to 9/11 through synchronicity, but I don't see any here (some coincidences are simply coincidences). But I'll go through your example anyway.

2) Their airplane was shaped like a cross, symbolically signifying the crucifixion

Okay, I'll give you that. The many links to the crucifixion of 9/11 come through gematria, including the solution of a geometric puzzle encoded within the event. See The Crucifixion for this infomation, includig a partial solution to the puzzle.

3) Stanisław Wigura comes out to 1110 using this calculator - notice that 11 can be found twice in this number!

The code based on increments of 6 is a contrived modern system, the invention of which was inspired by the Mayan system of counting. It is not part of Hebrew gematria (all three systems in the New Bible Code derive from ancient Hebrew systems).

You also got the arithmetic wrong. Under this system 'Stanislaw Wigura' comes to 1182.

4) Franciszek Żwirko comes out to 1128 using this calculator - 11 can be found in this number!

You also got this one wrong. 'Franciszek Zwirko' comes to 1284.

5) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the International Tourist Plane Contest - Challenge 1932 with 461 points - 4+6+1=11

Very contrived. 9/11 was the 254th day of the year and 2 + 5 + 4 = 11, but I don't mention it on my site. Actually to be fair, I do mention that 9 + 1 + 1 = 11, so there are always exceptions to any rule. It's difficult to know how strictly to follow any rule. In general, though, I do not mention the many superficial 11s that people have found in 9/11, even though I think they may be intelligently designed, because I have so much better evidence to show people I simply don't need to 'gild the lily' wth all this stuff. That's only one example. If you had hundreds from the event (as 9/11 researchers have) you might convince me.

6) On October 16, 1929, Żwirko and Antoni Kocjan set an international FAI altitude record of 4,004 m - 4004/11=364

Not bad.

7) Franciszek Żwirko and Stanisław Wigura won the challenge 1932 flying an RWD-6 airplane. RWD comes out to 270, 270-6=264, 264/11=24

Again, very contrived. Gematria is additive, not subtractive, as well. Do you see the difference between this kind of contrived manipulation and simply noticing that the date was the 11th, flight 11 hit first, the towers resembled '11', there were 110 storeys, the towers burned for 99 (9 x 11) days, Osama bin Laden = 110, September the Eleventh, Two Thousand and One = 440 (11 x 40), nine one one = 110, the 9/11 Commission hearings closed 1010 days after 9/11, the 9/11 Commission Report came out 1045 (11 x 95) days after 9/11, etc, etc, etc? I'm not saying that any of the above are conclusive, incidentally, just worthy of further investigation. Note also that on September11news.com are documented a huge number of 11-related coincidences deriving from 9/11. The life of Osama bin Laden is one. And that's before we look at any 11s encoded within the NIV.

8) At the time of their deaths, both men were considered heroes in Poland

I don't think this is relevant. The twin towers and the Pentagon were important for what they represented so well: greed and the military force that undergirds it. I was lying thinking of what 9/11 meant not long after the event and the following two words appeared before my (open) eyes. ARMS AVARICE

You might want to calculate their ordinal value, the number of letters, the first letters and the ordinal values of the individual words. Also, each of the words stands for one of the 9/11 targets and has the same gematria as 'demon' and 'dragon'.

9) Wigura helped design the RWD series of planes in late 1927, he dies in one on 9/11/1932 - almost 3.5 years later - there's your 3.5 years of the first of the two witnesses

You're trying hard, but there is no meaningful link here between him designing a plane then dying in it and the biblical 3.5 years. The twin towers, on the other hand can I think be shown to be related to the beast (see Rev. 13:11, for instance) and the two witnesses and other figures in Daniel and Revelation, scattered through both of which are different versions of the 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, etc)

Surely you would agree that the 1932 event was simply too insignificant to be the fulfilment of biblical prophecy. 9/11, on the other hand, felt like the end of the world to many, many people. It was certainly a major watershed in history. Remember too that 9/11 affected us at the level of our psyche. It had a major impact there, with huge consequences for the world.

Edited November 20, 2009 by blue triangle