Stellar Posted May 27, 2004 #26 Share Posted May 27, 2004 When a set of beliefs motivates the believer to try and destroy any known truths in an attempt to validate their belief [...] Lol funny thing is... I just saw the Simpsons episode where homer gets the crayon pulled out of his brain and he then disproves God.... he shows it to Flanders and flanders burns it to hide it from the public Any belief is open to disection and analysis, and the beliefs which damn the non believers are just worse and they basically warrant... stronger words... IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC09 Posted May 27, 2004 #27 Share Posted May 27, 2004 This is an argument waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted May 27, 2004 #28 Share Posted May 27, 2004 When a set of beliefs motivates the believer to try and destroy any known truths in an attempt to validate their belief , then they do open themselves up for a critical analysis of their beliefs. I call it the zero-sum mentality. For them to be right, you must be wrong and vice versa. With this thinking you have to work really hard to be right all of the time. One of the things that I like about eastern religions as well as the Native American religions is that other people get to have their own opinions without being wrong or condemned for doing so. "Each has his own path" type mentality makes for some nice neighbors and friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Raven Posted May 27, 2004 #29 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Is Wicca Satanist Crap or just a ficticious non religion? Neither. In my experiences with it and things like it, although not an extreme amount, have shown me that it is infact real, and to me, I beleive it works. You should not put down or dis-belief in something you have no knowladge of or do not understand. When you do, that is when you should place your opinions. It's sad that I must do this, but Satanists do not beleive in Satan just to let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomgirl Posted May 28, 2004 #30 Share Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) The fact is, Satan was made up by Christians, Wiccian's don't believe in Satan, we worship nature, mother earther, Gaia if you will Edited May 28, 2004 by doomgirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC09 Posted May 28, 2004 #31 Share Posted May 28, 2004 It's sad that I must do this, but Satanists do not beleive in Satan just to let you know. The Church of Satan satanists, anyway. He's more like a figure-head. There are some 'satanists' who do in fact worship Satan. Mostly the drugged out social rejects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted May 28, 2004 #32 Share Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) Perhaps it would be fair to point out the fact that Joc won't be around for a wee while . It appears to be obvious that he only started these threads to antagonise and has been dealt with accordingly . However it would be absolutely bonza if we could turn them into something positive and ignore the very foolish choice that Joc made , when he decided to behave the way he did . EDIT: There is a difference between argument and Debate , I prefer Debate.It teaches us alot more . Edited May 28, 2004 by Kismit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozmeister Posted May 28, 2004 #33 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Good idea kismit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chauncy Posted May 28, 2004 #34 Share Posted May 28, 2004 There is a difference between argument and Debate , I prefer Debate.It teaches us alot more I stated before my views towards wicca and its attachement to nature. However if you like I could objectively assume another view for debating purposes. Then through the process of said debate, as you stated, we shall learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBaby Posted May 28, 2004 #35 Share Posted May 28, 2004 (edited) Satan in his original pre-Christian Pagan forms is respected, as a principle rather than a deity. Satanists do not worship Satan just as most Buddhists do not worship Buddha." As Vexen Crabtree has written: "Satanism is Satanism not due to our worship of any deity, but for the philosophy that we stand for. We recognize ourselves as gods, and we hold our own perspective on life as holy and revere our own experiences as the only truth we can ever know. " "Satanism is the utter rejection of the spiritual way of theistic religions, and the honest admittence [sic] that we are just animals who evolve as any other complex system." 1 religioustolerance.org Satanists also hold children and animals in the highest regards. I've known a couple and really they just don't give a **** what you think about them, and don't screw 'em over 'cause they have no problem returning the favor. But other than that, they're really nice people . Gothic Satanism does not and did not exist. That's the common belief of sacrificing babies and virgins and whatnot. Of course there's always the kiddie rejects that like to pretend that's what Satanism is about, but they grow out of it. Here's their list of "rules": The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1967 1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked. 2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them. 3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy. 5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal. 6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved. 7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained. 8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself. 9. Do not harm little children. 10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. 11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. I have to agree w/ Mr. Chauncy though. Wicca is a very wholesome religion. I am in the process of taking on some of their practices. It's fun. Chauncy, you're well versed enough, you take on the offensive role . Edited May 28, 2004 by MoonBaby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted May 28, 2004 #36 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Ozmesiter, you said: Satan is a peculiarly Judeo-Christian/Islamic concept I just wanted to correct you and to say that Satan is a Christian (and maybe Islamic) concept, but not Jewish. Jews do not believe in the existance of Satan as Christians do. In judaism, satan is only one of God's many angles and messengers, and is compelled to obey God's word. According to Judaism, Satan is only one aspect of God, the side of temptation and a tester, who tests humans to see if they are rightious or not. Satan is not equal to God nor does he have anything against God. Also according to Judaism there is no hell, but that is a totally different issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falco Rex Posted May 28, 2004 #37 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Absolutely Erikl. I believe Satan is referred to as HaSatan and takes on the role of prosecutur in the Heavenly Courts. Please correct me if I'm wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozmeister Posted May 29, 2004 #38 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Erikl.....I know Satan in Judaism is different to the Christian version......all Satan means is "opposer"......but the concept of Satan (semantics aside) is still Judeo-Christian, no matter which way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falco Rex Posted May 29, 2004 #39 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Couldn't you make a case that the Judeo-Christian Satan was a concept borrowed from Zoroasterism? They had a Demon-God named Shaitan after all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozmeister Posted May 29, 2004 #40 Share Posted May 29, 2004 (edited) In reality, you could probably take it right back to the Sumerians and their deity system.......all the latter monotheistic religions have their origins back there. It's only logical that some of the religious beliefs of then would've been incorporated into those religions and concepts evolve into their present form from those earlier beliefs. Your point though, Falco, holds a lot of merit. Edited May 29, 2004 by Ozmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chauncy Posted May 29, 2004 #41 Share Posted May 29, 2004 In reality, you could probably take it right back to the Sumerians and their deity system.......all the latter monotheistic religions have their origins back there. It's only logical that some of the religious beliefs of then would've been incorporated into those religions and concepts evolve into their present form from those earlier beliefs I see it no different then making a snowball at the top of a mountain, then dropping it and letting it roll down the mountain. Its going to collect and grow larger as it rolls down the mountain, it will increase in size and volocity. If you were at the bottom of this mountain all your going to see is this huge monstrosity barreling down the mountain at you. Some of us jump out of the way and some stay and get nailed! When that huge snowball hits the bottom its going to blow into a thousand million pieces spreading itself all over the place. To come on the scene after impact and try to discern the nature of the beast would be difficult to say the least. As Ozmeister indicated it would be difficult to discern the original size of the snowball, its exact place of origin, the reason for its initial release, or how and when each little piece was added to the whole structure. What we can know for sure is that it did start at the top of the mountain, it has been collecting and building, and in the Sringtime snow melts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novo Posted May 29, 2004 #42 Share Posted May 29, 2004 well..... Im not a relegious person, or a christian... as our pastor put it we are "Better Thinker Uppers" we dont like to stick to other policies and we curse at religious spirit. All we do is give away charity and tell anyone who asks about Jesus. If they believe us good for them, And if they dont more power to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madelyne Posted May 29, 2004 #43 Share Posted May 29, 2004 It's funny I just started reading a book. It talks about the orgins of wicca and witchcraft. Altho it goes further back than this, is says In some areas of Europe these ritual leaders, priests, or priestess, became known as the Wicca-the wise ones. And I know myself that some of the first "religions" were earthbased goddess and god worshipping and focused on elemental powers. That was wide spread and in many diffrent cultures, native american, european, south americas, etc. Satan worship didn't develop untill after christianity started. The "Devil" with horns and such also wasn't in the bible untill after the new testment was written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted May 29, 2004 #44 Share Posted May 29, 2004 (edited) Couldn't you make a case that the Judeo-Christian Satan was a concept borrowed from Zoroasterism? They had a Demon-God named Shaitan after all.. Well, the name maybe originated from Zoroasterism, but again - Satan in Judaism is no Demon-God nor anything like that. He is a servant of God. Although I must say that the concept of choosing Good vs. Evil (which is very clearly showed in The Book of Job), might be borrowed from Zoroastrism. But again, Judaism is not near as dualistic as Christianity and even more Zoroasterism are. Another example of this is the concept of Messiah. In Judaism a messiah is a leader who leads the Jewish people to independence in the Holy Land. Cyrus king of the Persians, for that matter, was a messiah according to Judaism. The concept of messiah in Christianity is much closer to Zoroasterism, which probably entered Christianity through Mithraism, which was a very common religion in the Roman empire. Edited May 29, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madelyne Posted May 29, 2004 #45 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Your absoultly right, actually alot of things in christanity is borrowed from other older beliefs and religions. But things like black mass and such were created in mockery and regection of the christian god and rites their churches performed. Also, I myself belive that giving credence to the "devil" as christians view him, you would then also have to belive in the entire structure of god and heaven as they do. Which I do not, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozmeister Posted May 29, 2004 #46 Share Posted May 29, 2004 The concept of a messiah goes back even further than Mithraism. A messiah....an "anointed one" is what it means......can be traced right back to Egypt and the use of oil made from the fat of the sacred crocodile....the "mesis". Pharoahs were anointed before they assumed their positions and were declared "anointed ones of the mesis" when they had their feet and head rubbed with oil made from boiled down crocodile fat. The tradition of anointing a king or person of high office with special oils was passed down from there into various other cultures, and eventually made it's way into Judaism and subsequently Christianity. The anointing of a person (specifically a man) by a woman was also another ceremony that was performed when a person of high office or a king was to be married. It symbolises the union of the man with the woman in the sacred marriage and the passing of blessings from the woman (female/sister archetype) to the man (male/brother archetype). It usually happened twice....first the head was anointed then after a period of time the feet were anointed. The last action is akin to a modern couple announcing their engagement.....it meant that the two were betrothed to one another and was the final step before the actual marriage ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted May 31, 2004 #47 Share Posted May 31, 2004 I love the fact that this thread was started by joc out of frustration in order to belittle other religions and yet somehow turned into a really useful post with good input from a lot of different people. How cool is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chauncy Posted June 1, 2004 #48 Share Posted June 1, 2004 How cool is that? thats very cool! I rather enjoyed this thread, didn't have that much detail about Wicca till this thread appeared. Now that I have this info in light of the conection to nature evident in Wicca, I must find myself a good Wiccan woman!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverCougar Posted June 1, 2004 #49 Share Posted June 1, 2004 How cool is that? thats very cool! I rather enjoyed this thread, didn't have that much detail about Wicca till this thread appeared. Now that I have this info in light of the conection to nature evident in Wicca, I must find myself a good Wiccan woman!!! *snickers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublvr Posted June 1, 2004 #50 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Couldn't you make a case that the Judeo-Christian Satan was a concept borrowed from Zoroasterism? They had a Demon-God named Shaitan after all.. Well, the name maybe originated from Zoroasterism, but again - Satan in Judaism is no Demon-God nor anything like that. He is a servant of God. Although I must say that the concept of choosing Good vs. Evil (which is very clearly showed in The Book of Job), might be borrowed from Zoroastrism. But again, Judaism is not near as dualistic as Christianity and even more Zoroasterism are. Another example of this is the concept of Messiah. In Judaism a messiah is a leader who leads the Jewish people to independence in the Holy Land. Cyrus king of the Persians, for that matter, was a messiah according to Judaism. The concept of messiah in Christianity is much closer to Zoroasterism, which probably entered Christianity through Mithraism, which was a very common religion in the Roman empire. In this segway from the Wicca dicussion, folks have been saying that Christians "stole" this or that from one religion or another. We had a discussion about this on the now defunct "Jesus" thread (blast those creation v. evolution people!). I want to offer some alternate explanations concerning this supposed "borrowing/theft". The misunderstanding of the claim to uniqueness. The thinking on much of this issue seems to zero in on a faulty view of uniqueness. When Christians claim that Jesus and Christianity are unique, they are not claiming that there is no religion in history that looks in any way like Christianity! This is untrue. In fact, Christians are not ashamed of this, and they do not endeavor to hide it. When missionaries arrive in a new cultural/religious milieu, one of the first things they try to do is to find similarities between indigenous religions and the gospel. Actually, some overlap between figures, rites/rituals, and beliefs makes sense in a Judeo-Christian milieu. Christianity attempts to provide and embody answers to universal questions of things like origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. If human nature (good and bad) and the human dilemma are as universal as Christians (with Jews and Muslims to some degree) claim, then it makes entire sense that we would see some overlap. Christianity's uniqueness isn't derived from a "who came up with this idea first?" mentality! If you read the New Testament (and the Old Testament, for that matter) you find that none of the Christians claimed that Christianity was unique simply because they were the first to think of something! The uniqueness of Christianity stems from things like the unique character/nature of God, God's provision for the human dilemma through Jesus, and God's purposes for humankind in the earth right now and in the future (at the end of days and the "after-life"), etc. Though one might find aspects of Christianity in other religions, one will not find a point-for-point correlation between Christianity and other religions. If there is one universal deity with a universal program that includes the deity's self-disclosure in the world, a revelation of human nature and the human dilemma, the establishment of a moral code, and salvation for humankind, then similarities between religions can be explained by the fact that they all are some attempt to get back to the deity or some ideal state of humankind. But they all differ radically from one another, which means that if we all have a common origin, then some are misled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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