The Infidel Guy Posted November 2, 2009 #51 Share Posted November 2, 2009 "Sigh" I think son really needs this illusion of free will thingy, I say whatever floats his boat......... Its not as if he has the power to make it so, cuz its his trip, he has been unable to convince us for the last 3 years so far............lol... Indeed. Hell, im still waiting for Mr Walker's "God" to appear to me, which Mr Walker said he was going to ask his God to do so.....i get the feeling i may grow old before i see a white pillar of light. Peace T.I.G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted November 2, 2009 #52 Share Posted November 2, 2009 IamsSon we have argued this countless times. Since you "believe" in God you are nothing but a mindless robot (no offence).....True free will would mean God does not have divine foreknowledge and everything you do is not a part of "God's divine plan". How is it logically possible for a God to have divine foreknowledge, know the past, present and future and still have free will?.... It's a contradiction. It's like saying "hey IamsSon jump in the pool but don't get wet"..... the outcome is already known. Now you will probably now move the goal posts as you and others tend to do in saying "God could be outside of time blah blah blah".... I don't deal in "could", "might", "maybe"... I deal with what is actually written in the religious texts you call the word of god - BIBLE. Peace T.I.G TIG, I do not think Free will is applicable to jumping in the pool, as it does not relate to the physical choices. The simple physical choice is available to any living creature, not to us alone. Humans and animals make the same choices of actions, no difference. But we are still different from the animals. Science calls it "abstract thinking", Sapience, Mind. This is our difference, the ability to assess the environment and estimate the results of our actions. And this leads us to the moral assessment of the result of our actions, did they bring Good or Evil to the others and ourselves. Once such assessment is made once, the next similar action would be planned, taking into account the result of the previous one - we can make this action to achieve the desired outcome - Good or Evil. This choice of our motivation, to make Good or to make Evil is Free Will, and this is what majority of animals missing completely - thus the animals in religions are considered innocent, they can't make a sin, as they do not assess their motifs. What they call "sin" is our deliberate action deliberately directed to achieve Evil. Atheists do not have sin and God, but they have Conscience; those who do not have Conscience, controlling them, rely on God, as God is practically an artificial Morality, they have it because they do not have a natural one. Without God they would be killing and stealing, they need a fear of Hell to keep them from acting Evil way. So, our actions from this point of view are much less important than our motivations for them. Through God or rather through the Physics our actions can be pre-determined, as the world is most likely a solid 4-dimensional Continuum, in which Future co-exists with the Past, and all actions are already completed. But our motivations are the derivatives of this Continuum, on another level they are more important than our physical actions. This moral reasoning is not affected anyhow, it is entirely ours - of course if we take responsibility (not the one Iams talks about, but personal, his one can only bring one to the church) for the results. There is no God - so the responsibility for Good and Evil is entirely taken by our Conscience, whatever happens, happens because we did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #53 Share Posted November 2, 2009 TIG, I do not think Free will is applicable to jumping in the pool, as it does not relate to the physical choices. The simple physical choice is available to any living creature, not to us alone. Humans and animals make the same choices of actions, no difference. But we are still different from the animals. Science calls it "abstract thinking", Sapience, Mind. This is our difference, the ability to assess the environment and estimate the results of our actions. And this leads us to the moral assessment of the result of our actions, did they bring Good or Evil to the others and ourselves. Once such assessment is made once, the next similar action would be planned, taking into account the result of the previous one - we can make this action to achieve the desired outcome - Good or Evil. This choice of our motivation, to make Good or to make Evil is Free Will, and this is what majority of animals missing completely - thus the animals in religions are considered innocent, they can't make a sin, as they do not assess their motifs. What they call "sin" is our deliberate action deliberately directed to achieve Evil. Atheists do not have sin and God, but they have Conscience; those who do not have Conscience, controlling them, rely on God, as God is practically an artificial Morality, they have it because they do not have a natural one. Without God they would be killing and stealing, they need a fear of Hell to keep them from acting Evil way. So, our actions from this point of view are much less important than our motivations for them. Through God or rather through the Physics our actions can be pre-determined, as the world is most likely a solid 4-dimensional Continuum, in which Future co-exists with the Past, and all actions are already completed. But our motivations are the derivatives of this Continuum, on another level they are more important than our physical actions. This moral reasoning is not affected anyhow, it is entirely ours - of course if we take responsibility (not the one Iams talks about, but personal, his one can only bring one to the church) for the results. There is no God - so the responsibility for Good and Evil is entirely taken by our Conscience, whatever happens, happens because we did it. Personally, I think morality is as much as part of our evolution as any physical characteristic as it supports the survival of species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamsSon Posted November 2, 2009 #54 Share Posted November 2, 2009 IamsSon we have argued this countless times. Since you "believe" in God you are nothing but a mindless robot (no offence).....True free will would mean God does not have divine foreknowledge and everything you do is not a part of "God's divine plan". How is it logically possible for a God to have divine foreknowledge, know the past, present and future and still have free will?.... It's a contradiction. It's like saying "hey IamsSon jump in the pool but don't get wet"..... the outcome is already known. Now you will probably now move the goal posts as you and others tend to do in saying "God could be outside of time blah blah blah".... I don't deal in "could", "might", "maybe"... I deal with what is actually written in the religious texts you call the word of god - BIBLE. Peace T.I.G TIG, Given that you seem unable to or unwilling to even consider the implications of the "Imagine the 10th Dimension" video I have posted several times which as I have also stated several times seems to explain what is in the Bible you insist you are going by, it is really useless to talk about this with you. I am asking Shaun about his ability to make decisions, so if you'd like to participate, you might answer whether you find that you are incapable of making decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted November 2, 2009 #55 Share Posted November 2, 2009 TIG, I do not think Free will is applicable to jumping in the pool, as it does not relate to the physical choices. The simple physical choice is available to any living creature, not to us alone. Humans and animals make the same choices of actions, no difference. But we are still different from the animals. Science calls it "abstract thinking", Sapience, Mind. This is our difference, the ability to assess the environment and estimate the results of our actions. And this leads us to the moral assessment of the result of our actions, did they bring Good or Evil to the others and ourselves. Once such assessment is made once, the next similar action would be planned, taking into account the result of the previous one - we can make this action to achieve the desired outcome - Good or Evil. This choice of our motivation, to make Good or to make Evil is Free Will, and this is what majority of animals missing completely - thus the animals in religions are considered innocent, they can't make a sin, as they do not assess their motifs. What they call "sin" is our deliberate action deliberately directed to achieve Evil. Atheists do not have sin and God, but they have Conscience; those who do not have Conscience, controlling them, rely on God, as God is practically an artificial Morality, they have it because they do not have a natural one. Without God they would be killing and stealing, they need a fear of Hell to keep them from acting Evil way. So, our actions from this point of view are much less important than our motivations for them. Through God or rather through the Physics our actions can be pre-determined, as the world is most likely a solid 4-dimensional Continuum, in which Future co-exists with the Past, and all actions are already completed. But our motivations are the derivatives of this Continuum, on another level they are more important than our physical actions. This moral reasoning is not affected anyhow, it is entirely ours - of course if we take responsibility (not the one Iams talks about, but personal, his one can only bring one to the church) for the results. There is no God - so the responsibility for Good and Evil is entirely taken by our Conscience, whatever happens, happens because we did it. you bring in a good point marabod, I didn't include any artifical stand ins, to establish a morality in my boys it was there in a conscience and I just went from there, I have often wondered if some just don't have this and need directions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Infidel Guy Posted November 2, 2009 #56 Share Posted November 2, 2009 TIG, Given that you seem unable to or unwilling to even consider the implications of the "Imagine the 10th Dimension" video I have posted several times which as I have also stated several times seems to explain what is in the Bible you insist you are going by, it is really useless to talk about this with you. I am asking Shaun about his ability to make decisions, so if you'd like to participate, you might answer whether you find that you are incapable of making decisions. And as i have stated many times your video is nothing but the work of the imagination rather than evidential facts. If i was to consider every single imaginative theory without the need to back it up by evidential proof then i might as well become a priest. What i stated in my post ties in with choices. To make a choice would be to have free will. But to believe in a God who is omniscient and still believe you have free will to make a choice is a contradiction. So therefore my participation is well established. Peace T.I.G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted November 2, 2009 #57 Share Posted November 2, 2009 you bring in a good point marabod, I didn't include any artifical stand ins, to establish a morality in my boys it was there in a conscience and I just went from there, I have often wondered if some just don't have this and need directions.... Directions? Maybe some young ones... Remember that "do to the others what you want done to yourself"? From this, when you do to others what you DO NOT want done to yourself, this would be an evil motif; opposite, sure, a good one. This is the only Morality we need. God is not needed here for us to decide which Covenant to sign up for. As soon as a person discovers this principle - no other guidance is needed. Otherwise we have a religion - adult serious men pray and ask God which hand it is moral to use for wiping their donkey, and which not. Or the same men scrolling the Bible, trying to find if they are allowed to read Penthouse or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted November 2, 2009 #58 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Directions? Maybe some young ones... Remember that "do to the others what you want done to yourself"? From this, when you do to others what you DO NOT want done to yourself, this would be an evil motif; opposite, sure, a good one. This is the only Morality we need. God is not needed here for us to decide which Covenant to sign up for. As soon as a person discovers this principle - no other guidance is needed. Otherwise we have a religion - adult serious men pray and ask God which hand it is moral to use for wiping their donkey, and which not. Or the same men scrolling the Bible, trying to find if they are allowed to read Penthouse or not. lol, ha !!! indeed, the golden rule it is found in every corner of the earth, every culture from cave man on, got this or for the deeper mind do no harm that's about the gist of morality .. Good grief I'd say its innate, one can't miss it.... I have never understood what is so complicated about this ..I just thought it was me being to simplistic..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted November 2, 2009 #59 Share Posted November 2, 2009 TIG, Given that you seem unable to or unwilling to even consider the implications of the "Imagine the 10th Dimension" video I have posted several times which as I have also stated several times seems to explain what is in the Bible you insist you are going by, it is really useless to talk about this with you. I am asking Shaun about his ability to make decisions, so if you'd like to participate, you might answer whether you find that you are incapable of making decisions. Iamson the OP has little to do with the 10th dimension or Shaun's abilities to make decisions ..why not start a thread .. Is not really for you to tell Tigs to get off of someone else's thread hun ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #60 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) lol, ha !!! indeed, the golden rule it is found in every corner of the earth, every culture from cave man on, got this or for the deeper mind do no harm that's about the gist of morality .. Good grief I'd say its innate, one can't miss it.... I have never understood what is so complicated about this ..I just thought it was me being to simplistic..... No, you're not being simplistic. You are absolutely right, it's not that complicated. If everyone just went around doing only what was best for themselves with no concern for others it would wipe us out as a species, and we require each other to live, multiply, etc. I agree, it is innate, though I'd say it's conditioned out of us in some way in the society we live in and all this "my God is better than your God so you don't matter and I can do anything to you I want because you follow the wrong God" mentality - the very thinking that will wipe us out. Edited November 2, 2009 by ChloeB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamsSon Posted November 2, 2009 #61 Share Posted November 2, 2009 And as i have stated many times your video is nothing but the work of the imagination rather than evidential facts. If i was to consider every single imaginative theory without the need to back it up by evidential proof then i might as well become a priest. What i stated in my post ties in with choices. To make a choice would be to have free will. But to believe in a God who is omniscient and still believe you have free will to make a choice is a contradiction. So therefore my participation is well established. Peace T.I.G The video shows one possible way in which an observer can see any and every possible decision a person could make, any and all possible outcomes and yet not violate the persons ability to choose. Given that the Bible, which you claim to be using to base your opinion on, states that God is all-knowing, and yet also has clear indications that people make their own decisions and are held accountable for those decisions, the Bible seems to be describing a universe similar to the one shown postulated in the video. Therefore, believing in free will and an omniscient being are not necessarily contradictions. The conversation with Shaun, though, has more to do with the question of responsibility, free will is assumed, since I am choosing to respond to you, and not being impelled by some outside force to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Infidel Guy Posted November 2, 2009 #62 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) The video shows one possible way in which an observer can see any and every possible decision a person could make, any and all possible outcomes and yet not violate the persons ability to choose. Given that the Bible, which you claim to be using to base your opinion on, states that God is all-knowing, and yet also has clear indications that people make their own decisions and are held accountable for those decisions, the Bible seems to be describing a universe similar to the one shown postulated in the video. Therefore, believing in free will and an omniscient being are not necessarily contradictions. The conversation with Shaun, though, has more to do with the question of responsibility, free will is assumed, since I am choosing to respond to you, and not being impelled by some outside force to do so. That's one of many obvious contradictions within the Bible.... There's a whole thread i created on these contradictions. You may "think" there not contradictions but in reality they are. Contradictions are throughout the Bible and in abundance. The video does show one "possible" way... but in the end it's a possibility rather than evidential fact. It is an imaginative thought someone most "probably" made up whilst sitting on the toilet seat reading GQ magazine.....unless of course you can prove otherwise....i doubt it though.... all you have holding close to your heart is the "belief" this is true. If such a dimension exists i really don't understand why God in all his might and wisdom did not achieve to put his words in much clearer context rather than have people "fight" it out as to what God actually means. My argument still stands that true free will would mean God is not Omniscient. Peace T.I.G Edited November 2, 2009 by The Infidel Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted November 2, 2009 #63 Share Posted November 2, 2009 No, you're not being simplistic. You are absolutely right, it's not that complicated. If everyone just went around doing only what was best for themselves with no concern for others it would wipe us out as a species, and we require each other to live, multiply, etc. I agree, it is innate, though I'd say it's conditioned out of us in some way in the society we live in and all this "my God is better than your God so you don't matter and I can do anything to you I want because you follow the wrong God" mentality - the very thinking that will wipe us out. Clobear you are correct, some of the movements and cults/gangs have done a great job of making us a selfish mob....Wow, very good pull hun... They have turned us into monsters for lack of a better word...That's why I stay away from gangs that call themselves religions..... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted November 2, 2009 #64 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I have a very short, and to the point topic. Sense many of you believe in god and insist he is with you always, I'm just curious, what has god EVER done for you? What has god EVER done on this earth, in the modern day, that has benifited you HERE? if he loved you so much, why does he insist on doing nothing for you or anyone else, even when there are millions upon millions of people suffering today? Anything that benefits humanity, if it can be proven, counts Heavenly Father and Mother (God) out of love unconditional, Created my eternal spirit out of Love Unconditional. Gave me compassion and The experience to experience, Experience. This includes the Good, Bad and Uglaie. I love God, because God loves me. Even if i thought God, Father and Mother did not love me, I would still love them, it's what unconditional means. Being that it was they who taught it to me, I can't go wrong. Live your LOve. Love Omnaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #65 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Clobear you are correct, some of the movements and cults/gangs have done a great job of making us a selfish mob....Wow, very good pull hun... They have turned us into monsters for lack of a better word...That's why I stay away from gangs that call themselves religions..... . Power-over instead of power-with. I think it comes out of all that focus on the afterlife, not importance on what goes on in this life except following the rules to get to that promise of where you're going after you die and those guys following the wrong God aren't going to make it there anyway so they don't matter, don't count so you can bomb their country, commit genocide. It's really messed up IMO, but if all you care about is that afterlife you don't care about our planet and the people on it just getting yourself to those pearly gates, personal salvation is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Infidel Guy Posted November 2, 2009 #66 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Heavenly Father and Mother (God) out of love unconditional, Created my eternal spirit out of Love Unconditional. Gave me compassion and The experience to experience, Experience. This includes the Good, Bad and Uglaie. I love God, because God loves me. Even if i thought God, Father and Mother did not love me, I would still love them, it's what unconditional means. Being that it was they who taught it to me, I can't go wrong. Live your LOve. Love Omnaka One word: Ignorant..... God does not have unconditional love. Far from it. You even mentioned it includes the "Bad" and the "Ugly". To be All-Loving would mean disappearance of the terms "bad" and "ugly". How could an All-Loving being let 35,000 Children die at the hands of famine whilst knowing it has the power to restore "Good"? This is not unconditional love. This is an unconditional puppet show and got is the puppet master. That's sadistic. Peace T.I.G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #67 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Heavenly Father and Mother (God) out of love unconditional, Created my eternal spirit out of Love Unconditional. Gave me compassion and The experience to experience, Experience. This includes the Good, Bad and Uglaie. I love God, because God loves me. Even if i thought God, Father and Mother did not love me, I would still love them, it's what unconditional means. Being that it was they who taught it to me, I can't go wrong. Live your LOve. Love Omnaka Question is - Do "they" love you unconditionally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted November 2, 2009 #68 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The video shows one possible way in which an observer can see any and every possible decision a person could make, any and all possible outcomes and yet not violate the persons ability to choose. Given that the Bible, which you claim to be using to base your opinion on, states that God is all-knowing, and yet also has clear indications that people make their own decisions and are held accountable for those decisions, the Bible seems to be describing a universe similar to the one shown postulated in the video. Therefore, believing in free will and an omniscient being are not necessarily contradictions. The conversation with Shaun, though, has more to do with the question of responsibility, free will is assumed, since I am choosing to respond to you, and not being impelled by some outside force to do so. One could say , in the end, Father's will, will be done done. And Our will is father's will, anything else would contradict Freewill and Unconditional love., Love Omnaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #69 Share Posted November 2, 2009 One could say , in the end, Father's will, will be done done. And Our will is father's will, anything else would contradict Freewill and Unconditional love., Love Omnaka What is 2 guys are standing with guns pointed at eachother's heads, both with the will to kill the other. So which one's will is "father's" will then? The one who pulls the trigger first? What of wills that conflict each other, how can opposing will all be part of "father's" will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted November 2, 2009 #70 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Question is - Do "they" love you unconditionally? I already answered that. twas Father and Mother, who taught me love, and created my Conscious Spirit from same. God, (Father and mother), love you unconditionally too. Love Omnaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted November 2, 2009 #71 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Power-over instead of power-with. I think it comes out of all that focus on the afterlife, not importance on what goes on in this life except following the rules to get to that promise of where you're going after you die and those guys following the wrong God aren't going to make it there anyway so they don't matter, don't count so you can bomb their country, commit genocide. It's really messed up IMO, but if all you care about is that afterlife you don't care about our planet and the people on it just getting yourself to those pearly gates, personal salvation is the key. your right , so right ..the joy and appreciation and gratitude of life now is not even important, just being obsessed with avoiding death as if their really is a after life....sigh. .....it keeps them from the things that matter in a society that need attention now..there is so much now that needs a hand, I mean kool painting a church or passing out day old bread but its not really doing anything its the equivalent of doing nothing whilst pretending you are really doing something....... some would just as soon let others die if it is gonna infringe on them ....It is really messed up, it deeply saddens me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted November 2, 2009 #72 Share Posted November 2, 2009 What is 2 guys are standing with guns pointed at eachother's heads, both with the will to kill the other. So which one's will is "father's" will then? The one who pulls the trigger first? What of wills that conflict each other, how can opposing will all be part of "father's" will? The one who learns from his experience. Unconditional Love, does not play Favorites. God, (Father and mother), love you unconditionally also, believe it, or not. Love Omnaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Infidel Guy Posted November 2, 2009 #73 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The one who learns from his experience. Unconditional Love, does not play Favorites. God, (Father and mother), love you unconditionally also, believe it, or not. Love Omnaka Your preaching... God loves you this and that blah blah blah...... Your God does not LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY.... do you not see the world today? How about going to your town center and seeing a homeless guy? Does this look like unconditional love to you? If it does your ignorant and my statement is justified. Peac T.I.G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChloeB Posted November 2, 2009 #74 Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) The one who learns from his experience. Unconditional Love, does not play Favorites. God, (Father and mother), love you unconditionally also, believe it, or not. Love Omnaka So here you've said, God's will is only with the one who learns from his experience so you can't say God's will is with the one who did not learn anything and contradicts what you said earlier that "our will" is "God's will" as you've just illustrated above it depends. Edited to add: Isn't this my will = God's will the same thing that goes on in these holy wars? Edited November 2, 2009 by ChloeB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted November 2, 2009 #75 Share Posted November 2, 2009 The one who learns from his experience. Unconditional Love, does not play Favorites. God, (Father and mother), love you unconditionally also, believe it, or not. Love Omnaka Brother, what is the point of you telling the people about some virtual creatures loving people unconditionally? This is the same as to say "Snoopy loves you unconditionally" or "Bart loves you unconditionally". At least these two we all saw, but not those you named, specially this Omnisexy Holy God-Mother. Aren't we all good without this heavenly love? We are the images of that Father, but what can we do with his unconditional love? Wanna buy my share of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now