New World Super-Power forming in Europe?

[stevewinn]

So, whass the hype?

because we are now going further. and you as well as i know more EU taxes are on the way, taxes which will go directly to the EU coffers you might welcome such taxes, taxes which would help with the Greek economy, being top of the list for handouts.

but for me, i detest my taxes going to the EU. i don't see why i should help fund the building of sewers in Warsaw or tramlines in Belgium.

so that's the hype. i dont expect you to be against such taxes after all who would cut off the hand that feeds them.

[questionmark]

so that's the hype. i dont expect you to be against such taxes after all who would cut off the hand that feeds them.

Some do constantly, they just don't realize it.

[keithisco]

because we are now going further. and you as well as i know more EU taxes are on the way, taxes which will go directly to the EU coffers you might welcome such taxes, taxes which would help with the Greek economy, being top of the list for handouts.

but for me, i detest my taxes going to the EU. i don't see why i should help fund the building of sewers in Warsaw or tramlines in Belgium.

so that's the hype. i dont expect you to be against such taxes after all who would cut off the hand that feeds them.

When living in the UK I lived in the South East (which has the highest percentage of highest tax rate payers in the UK - like myself). I didnt decry my tax money going to less well-off areas in the UK, including Merseyside. Should I detest my taxes re-building sewers in Liverpool? No. In the same way, I have no problem with my taxes being used to fund poorer areas of the EU because I have the right to live anywhere in the EU and to enjoy all of the various Social benefits in any EU nation equally should I need them.

Being a member of the EU opens up many more opportunities both in terms of work, standard and / or quality of life, and security. The "Little Englander" approach strikes me as being somewhat myopic and a "back woodsman" mentality.

I get the feeling Steve that you would happily allow the UK to become subsumed as the 51st State of the USA, so just what is the difference from your viewpoint?

[stevewinn]

When living in the UK I lived in the South East (which has the highest percentage of highest tax rate payers in the UK - like myself). I didnt decry my tax money going to less well-off areas in the UK, including Merseyside. Should I detest my taxes re-building sewers in Liverpool? No. In the same way, I have no problem with my taxes being used to fund poorer areas of the EU because I have the right to live anywhere in the EU and to enjoy all of the various Social benefits in any EU nation equally should I need them.

Being a member of the EU opens up many more opportunities both in terms of work, standard and / or quality of life, and security. The "Little Englander" approach strikes me as being somewhat myopic and a "back woodsman" mentality.

I get the feeling Steve that you would happily allow the UK to become subsumed as the 51st State of the USA, so just what is the difference from your viewpoint?

oh Keith, no no and no again. were never going to agree on anything when it comes to the EU. you know my views.

[ExpandMyMind]

keith.

how can someone who hates the bildaberg group so much, be so far in favour of a union proposed by the very same group?

[questionmark]

keith.

how can someone who hates the bildaberg group so much, be so far in favour of a union proposed by the very same group?

Because far from fact that is a conspiracy theory?

[keithisco]

Because far from fact that is a conspiracy theory?

Exactly. All that is really needed is to wrest democratic principles back into the equation for the EU to live up to its promise.

[ExpandMyMind]

Because far from fact that is a conspiracy theory?

it's been openly admitted on mainstream news...

[questionmark]

it's been openly admitted on mainstream news...

Well I find a lot, but all in the usual conspiracy forums. Mainstream media?

[ExpandMyMind]

mainstream media, yes. it was admitted by a member as far as i can recall.

[questionmark]

mainstream media, yes. it was admitted by a member as far as i can recall.

I'll try to find it, but from what I can see in my search...unless it was the Star or the National Enquirer I don't see it.

[ExpandMyMind]

I'll try to find it, but from what I can see in my search...unless it was the Star or the National Enquirer I don't see it.

i had a look myself and couldn't find the exact quote from the member/ex-member. what i did find was this statement coming up quite a lot.

In a recent Radio documentary the BBC disclosed that the decision to create a European Union was taken at the first official Bilderberg Group meeting in 1953

couldn't for the life of me find the documentary. though from what i can gather (which could be completely wrong), i think it was from the club class show, sometime in mid 2003. checked the site but their recordings don't go back that far. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/clubclass/pip/archive/

oh well, still can't find the man's quote. i'll keep looking.

[Mattshark]

When living in the UK I lived in the South East (which has the highest percentage of highest tax rate payers in the UK - like myself). I didnt decry my tax money going to less well-off areas in the UK, including Merseyside. Should I detest my taxes re-building sewers in Liverpool? No. In the same way, I have no problem with my taxes being used to fund poorer areas of the EU because I have the right to live anywhere in the EU and to enjoy all of the various Social benefits in any EU nation equally should I need them.

Being a member of the EU opens up many more opportunities both in terms of work, standard and / or quality of life, and security. The "Little Englander" approach strikes me as being somewhat myopic and a "back woodsman" mentality.

I get the feeling Steve that you would happily allow the UK to become subsumed as the 51st State of the USA, so just what is the difference from your viewpoint?

The EU paid for a hell of a lot of the regeneration in Liverpool as well after neglect by our own government and it has been seen the city improve much faster than the NW England city the government chose to be the most heavily invested in city in the UK, Manchester, which unlike Liverpool is rated as one of the top 10 worst places to live in the UK.

[Render]

Euro tax has its advantages.

A lot of debates have been going prior to making it a fact. A lot of europeans actually think it's a good thing, believe it or not.

Why? Because it unifies the bond more. Hopefully ppl will say less stuff like "why should i pay for germans/italians/whatever" and more "i'm helping out fellow europeans".

It brings the rest of the world a lil closer to your own bed, cuz it's going out of your wallet.

Which in my eyes isn't necessarily a negative thing. Unifying is the goal, so this makes sense.

[stevewinn]

Europeans might consider EU taxes a great thing.

but the British dont. no matter which way you spin it, all polls show the majority of the British people want to leave the European Union. that's why our government didn't give us a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, they knew we'd vote NO.

Its no wonder votes are increasing in each election for the parties who are anti EU.

[Render]

Europeans might consider EU taxes a great thing.

but the British dont. no matter which way you spin it, all polls show the majority of the British people want to leave the European Union. that's why our government didn't give us a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, they knew we'd vote NO.

Its no wonder votes are increasing in each election for the parties who are anti EU.

Lol, I hate to break it to you...but the UK has been a member of the EU since 1973. So there's no Europeans and you british technically speaking. It's just Europeans.

There's no need to be so stubborn about it, just relax and go with the progress.

If the UK weren't included you'd probably all be nagging about being left behind.

Why is the EU so bad?

Cuz you'll have to give up the pound eventually? Boo-hoo. Such a thing is loaded with benefits.

It's like ppl who still wanna work with floppy's cuz it's old and cool..whilst modern technology is way better. But it's not "cool" to the oldschoolers. Get over it.

[stevewinn]

Lol, I hate to break it to you...but the UK has been a member of the EU since 1973. So there's no Europeans and you british technically speaking. It's just Europeans.

There's no need to be so stubborn about it, just relax and go with the progress.

If the UK weren't included you'd probably all be nagging about being left behind.

Why is the EU so bad?

Cuz you'll have to give up the pound eventually? Boo-hoo. Such a thing is loaded with benefits.

It's like ppl who still wanna work with floppy's cuz it's old and cool..whilst modern technology is way better. But it's not "cool" to the oldschoolers. Get over it.

just because you think the EU is a good idea, doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion.

I have no problems with the European Union for the countries who want to be part of it.

Its my opinion that the United Kingdom should not be part of it, and am not alone in this, like polls suggest.

all i want is for the UK to leave the political Union, and operate in the same way Norway does.

once out i couldn't care less what the EU does. but as along as we are held within against our wishes i'll keep voicing my opinion.

If your so confident about the EU hold referendum in every single nation thats a member of the Union and let the people decide.

am 27 years old and never had a vote on whether we should be in Europe or out. no-one under the age of 52 in the UK as ever had a vote on this matter since 1975 and that in a democracy is simply not right. especially when the majority want to leave.

[Render]

just because you think the EU is a good idea, doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion.

I have no problems with the European Union for the countries who want to be part of it.

Its my opinion that the United Kingdom should not be part of it, and am not alone in this, like polls suggest.

all i want is for the UK to leave the political Union, and operate in the same way Norway does.

once out i couldn't care less what the EU does. but as along as we are held within against our wishes i'll keep voicing my opinion.

If your so confident about the EU hold referendum in every single nation thats a member of the Union and let the people decide.

am 27 years old and never had a vote on whether we should be in Europe or out. no-one under the age of 52 in the UK as ever had a vote on this matter since 1975 and that in a democracy is simply not right. especially when the majority want to leave.

Of course ppl don't have to agree. I assume some don't.

But why wouldn't you want to be part of it? Just because you had no say in it or what?

[stevewinn]

Of course ppl don't have to agree. I assume some don't.

But why wouldn't you want to be part of it? Just because you had no say in it or what?

What do you mean JUST, were talking about democracy here and representation. That reason alone is enough. no matter if you are pro EU or Anti EU.

But Yes - people should have a say in how they are governed, but that's not the reason alone its quite a few things, to numerous, If you do a site search you'll see what those reasons are.

maybe because i come from a great country, i don't know but what motivates me is i unashamedly - patriotically believe in my own nation, i believe we should be the masters of our own destiny.

The EU is ideal for small insignificant weak countries the likes of Greece, Belgium, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria, Austria, Czech Republic. countries which if they fell off the map no-one would notice, such countries are going nowhere, they have no ambition, they struggle even looking after themselves, so they have to huddle together in a desperate attempt at being something.

Out of Interest in what country where you born and where do you live now?

[ExpandMyMind]

Of course ppl don't have to agree. I assume some don't.

But why wouldn't you want to be part of it? Just because you had no say in it or what?

there are many reasons for me. but the one that rattles around my mind the most these days is the fact that the EU has a non-elected president.

[questionmark]

there are many reasons for me. but the one that rattles around my mind the most these days is the fact that the EU has a non-elected president.

Well, you are not alone. In fact if all would join together there could be a popular movement big enough to elect the prezz directly.

[secondhand]

The EU is ideal for small insignificant weak countries the likes of Greece, Belgium, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria, Austria, Czech Republic. countries which if they fell off the map no-one would notice, such countries are going nowhere, they have no ambition, they struggle even looking after themselves, so they have to huddle together in a desperate attempt at being something.

That's the sort of comment that makes the rest of the world hate the English. It's insulting, hubristic and narrow minded, the sort of thing that those knobheads who rampage through Prague on a stag weekend would think. The UK isn't all it's cracked up to be. Try travelling a bit and seeing how other people in Europe live. You'll find, in the main, that it's a damn sight more enjoyable than going out in any English town with p***ed-up imbeciles fighting, shagging and puking wherever you look.

That view you posted makes me shake my head in wonder at the ignorance of your average Englishman.

[MARAB0D]

That's the sort of comment that makes the rest of the world hate the English. It's insulting, hubristic and narrow minded, the sort of thing that those knobheads who rampage through Prague on a stag weekend would think. The UK isn't all it's cracked up to be. Try travelling a bit and seeing how other people in Europe live. You'll find, in the main, that it's a damn sight more enjoyable than going out in any English town with p***ed-up imbeciles fighting, shagging and puking wherever you look.

That view you posted makes me shake my head in wonder at the ignorance of your average Englishman.

I am not an English at all, but I fully understand what makes Steve to reason the way he does. Ain't broken - dont fix it! UK is not falling apart, and does not require any help; there is simply no objective reasons for it to be in EU. When it joined - there was cold war, but now it is not. Also, as Caesar formulated it, it is better to be the first in a village than the last in a city. UK now is a WW2 winner, a nuclear power, a permanent member of UNSC - which means it is a leading part of our World order, and has a word in it. Dissolving in EU eliminates this status. Same relates to France by the way, so we would see what would happen with this one too.

[secondhand]

I wasn't having a go about his stance on the EU- I myself am undecided on whether it's good or bad. I was just irritated by terms such as "small insignificant weak countries" that "are going nowhere" and " which if they fell off the map no-one would notice". The only people who wouldn't notice if they fell of the map would be the Little Englanders that can't locate these countries on the map in the first place.

PS I am an Englishman, happy to be one as well. Just think it's about time we left that colonial attitude to other countries behind-i.e. "We are great and you are not, becuase you're not English". In the real world, despite what people think about how great their own countries are [patriotism, in other words], most of the rest of the world probably disgree. Try telling a Latvian or an Italian or a Greek that England is better than their country. I reckon 99.9999% would vehemently disagree. The other 0.0001% are probably deaf.

Anyway Britain has done very little of value in recent years. We have to drop this hubris that we are respected becasue of past achievements. We neeed to concentrate on the present and future.

[MARAB0D]

I wasn't having a go about his stance on the EU- I myself am undecided on whether it's good or bad. I was just irritated by terms such as "small insignificant weak countries" that "are going nowhere" and " which if they fell off the map no-one would notice". The only people who wouldn't notice if they fell of the map would be the Little Englanders that can't locate these countries on the map in the first place.

PS I am an Englishman, happy to be one as well. Just think it's about time we left that colonial attitude to other countries behind-i.e. "We are great and you are not, becuase you're not English". In the real world, despite what people think about how great their own countries are [patriotism, in other words], most of the rest of the world probably disgree. Try telling a Latvian or an Italian or a Greek that England is better than their country. I reckon 99.9999% would vehemently disagree. The other 0.0001% are probably deaf.

Anyway Britain has done very little of value in recent years. We have to drop this hubris that we are respected becasue of past achievements. We neeed to concentrate on the present and future.

I think it is more simple and less emotional. There are countries which historically do OK on their own - and there are countries who historically are always someone else's provinces or at least allies. De-facto they are too weak to sustain themselves - exactly what Steve said! Latvia is among them, as it was for centuries a part of other countries, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Russia etc. Such country certainly needs an ally or a patron, hence EU is a right place for it (except a year or two later it would start hating EU no less it was hating USSR or Sweden in the past )

I won't be speaking on behalf of Greece and Italy, but probably Greece must feel happy in EU, and Italy probably too. But again, neither Italy nor Greece can be historically, politically, economically and militarily compared to UK, so their reasons for being happy in EU are entirely their own.