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New World Super-Power forming in Europe?


Karlis

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I am not an English at all, but I fully understand what makes Steve to reason the way he does. Ain't broken - dont fix it! UK is not falling apart, and does not require any help; there is simply no objective reasons for it to be in EU. When it joined - there was cold war, but now it is not. Also, as Caesar formulated it, it is better to be the first in a village than the last in a city. UK now is a WW2 winner, a nuclear power, a permanent member of UNSC - which means it is a leading part of our World order, and has a word in it. Dissolving in EU eliminates this status. Same relates to France by the way, so we would see what would happen with this one too.

exactly. well said,

Norway isnt a EU member yet no-one on here criticises them, why is that? no-one says little norwegianer to Norwegians for being independent and believing in their own abilities to self govern.

Norway with a population of 4 million is more prosperous outside the Union than the United Kingdom with a 62 million population is and were inside the union.

If Norway can do it, we most certainly can.

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exactly. well said,

Norway isnt a EU member yet no-one on here criticises them, why is that? no-one says little norwegianer to Norwegians for being independent and believing in their own abilities to self govern.

Norway with a population of 4 million is more prosperous outside the Union than the United Kingdom with a 62 million population is and were inside the union.

If Norway can do it, we most certainly can.

No, you can't, British oil is privatized, Norwegian oil nationalized, besides...they have more of it.

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I think it is more simple and less emotional. There are countries which historically do OK on their own - and there are countries who historically are always someone else's provinces or at least allies. De-facto they are too weak to sustain themselves - exactly what Steve said! Latvia is among them, as it was for centuries a part of other countries, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Russia etc. Such country certainly needs an ally or a patron, hence EU is a right place for it (except a year or two later it would start hating EU no less it was hating USSR or Sweden in the past original.gif )

I won't be speaking on behalf of Greece and Italy, but probably Greece must feel happy in EU, and Italy probably too. But again, neither Italy nor Greece can be historically, politically, economically and militarily compared to UK, so their reasons for being happy in EU are entirely their own.

....and if the UK "fell off the map", would it really be significant? Probably not. It would just be another historical fact but would have little or no repercussions on the world as a whole.

I think you are a little too quick to deny what Italy and Greece have both given to the world, if you stop and think about it for a while you will realise that pretty much all of European culture can trace its roots back to these two nations, or the city states as were.

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exactly. well said,

Norway isnt a EU member yet no-one on here criticises them, why is that? no-one says little norwegianer to Norwegians for being independent and believing in their own abilities to self govern.

Norway with a population of 4 million is more prosperous outside the Union than the United Kingdom with a 62 million population is and were inside the union.

If Norway can do it, we most certainly can.

Neither do they pretend to be something that they are not in terms of"power". That do not "glory" in lost might, they do not think themselves better than "insignificant "countries, in short, they do not consider themselves better than other nationals.

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I can find myself most in secondhand and keithisco their reasoning.

Indeed it's glib to keep thinking about the past. Like all the participating countries don't have their share in history, puh-lease. Are you reading yourself as you post this?

Like the UK has been the only one to wage war or win something. Get over it. Fact is that their are ppl that know a lot more than you do about the current position the UK has in the world. It's more beneficial to be part of the bigger union then to be left in the cold. Try to blossom with the rest instead of that arrogant US like attitude where isolation has been a popular strategy. See where it got them?

Furthermore i'd like to point out that Norway tried to be part of the EU 4 times already.

In 1962, 1967 but were veto-ed against then.

And 1972 and 1994, then the majority of the ppl did indeed get to vote and voted against.

But it's not like that was the end of the discussion. It's still a hot topic in politics in the EU and Norway. So there's enough nagging about that around the globe.

Also Norway is part of many EU programmes.

I btw prefer not to elaborate on where i come from because i feel it's irrelevant to the conversation. And ppl tend to focus on details and use it as an argument while it's not relevant. Or maybe it's relevant, but not enough to use in a discussion and pretend it's some sort of counter argument that eliminates the reasoning of the other person.

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But why wouldn't you want to be part of it? Just because you had no say in it or what?

Because little Englanders think the UK is an important world power and have warped ideas that trade should only occur with people who speak the same language.

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Because little Englanders think the UK is an important world power and have warped ideas that trade should only occur with people who speak the same language.

That sure limits they choices, doesn't it? The potent ones (Australia, New Zealand, India) look more for trade with China, Canada with the US and the rest survive on handouts... not good.

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exactly. well said,

Norway isnt a EU member yet no-one on here criticises them, why is that? no-one says little norwegianer to Norwegians for being independent and believing in their own abilities to self govern.

Norway with a population of 4 million is more prosperous outside the Union than the United Kingdom with a 62 million population is and were inside the union.

If Norway can do it, we most certainly can.

So what, is England the most prosperous in the EU? Nope it isn't.

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....and if the UK "fell off the map", would it really be significant? Probably not. It would just be another historical fact but would have little or no repercussions on the world as a whole.

I think you are a little too quick to deny what Italy and Greece have both given to the world, if you stop and think about it for a while you will realise that pretty much all of European culture can trace its roots back to these two nations, or the city states as were.

No, I thought we were practical, not emotional! Greece and Italy are two countries-museums in which any citizen is a ready-to-go cicerone. But we were talking militaries, economies etc, not the archaeology!

I am not ready to discuss what exactly each of us would feel if UK falls off the map, I can only speak for myself - and I would have here local gangsters seizing the former powers of HMQEII under disguise of a new form of democracy. However if EU falls off the map, I won't even notice, maybe mangoes and petrol would become cheaper...

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Because little Englanders think the UK is an important world power and have warped ideas that trade should only occur with people who speak the same language.

Yep, agree with that. They still can't come to terms and think GLOBAL COMMUNITY. Their mind retorts back and stops at COMMONWEALTH & BRITISH EMPIRE.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil
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Neither do they pretend to be something that they are not in terms of"power". That do not "glory" in lost might, they do not think themselves better than "insignificant "countries, in short, they do not consider themselves better than other nationals.

I dunno why you and others keep bring up the words glory and empires into near every reply. yes we have a proud and magnificent history, a history which rivals anything the world has ever seen, nothing to be ashamed about.

but the fact of empires and passed glories has nothing to do with my stance on the future of the UK.

All i want for the UK is to be independent from Europe, in the same way Norway is, be good neighbours with Europe, trade with Europe but nothing more.

what is wrong with that? absolutely nothing at all. and then we get the scaremongering tactic of trying to portray a false notion that the UK would be nothing without europe, and would sink. which is simply not true.

this is exactly what i want.

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Wanna see how many Ph.D places in the UK will go with out the EU?

http://www.findaphd.com/search/listprojects.asp?disc=allsci&location=&univ=&searchtype=b&keyword=&scip=2504&scif=79&socp=161&socd=128&socf=19&pd=0

Norway is not comparable to the UK and certainly the loss of the level of scientific funding we get from the EU would leave our universities in serious decline.

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Wanna see how many Ph.D places in the UK will go with out the EU?

http://www.findaphd.com/search/listprojects.asp?disc=allsci&location=&univ=&searchtype=b&keyword=&scip=2504&scif=79&socp=161&socd=128&socf=19&pd=0

Norway is not comparable to the UK and certainly the loss of the level of scientific funding we get from the EU would leave our universities in serious decline.

but...but... those guys all say that Great Britain is paying more in than they get out...

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but...but... those guys all say that Great Britain is paying more in than they get out...

Yeah, of course there were no EU paid for improvements of British cities which had been left with out funding from our own government or anything either. We only paid for directive 1, never a recipient. :innocent:

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I dunno why you and others keep bring up the words glory and empires into near every reply. yes we have a proud and magnificent history, a history which rivals anything the world has ever seen, nothing to be ashamed about.

but the fact of empires and passed glories has nothing to do with my stance on the future of the UK.

All i want for the UK is to be independent from Europe, in the same way Norway is, be good neighbours with Europe, trade with Europe but nothing more.

what is wrong with that? absolutely nothing at all. and then we get the scaremongering tactic of trying to portray a false notion that the UK would be nothing without europe, and would sink. which is simply not true.

this is exactly what i want.

Proud and magnificent?? Then why is Britain still not an "Empire"???Surely all of these colonies would still want to be in a British Empire Empire, NO? Russia, Italy(marginal depending on your source) France and Germany all have larger populations than the UK, and appear to have more "clout" (Russia excepted) in the EU.

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Wanna see how many Ph.D places in the UK will go with out the EU?

http://www.findaphd.com/search/listprojects.asp?disc=allsci&location=&univ=&searchtype=b&keyword=&scip=2504&scif=79&socp=161&socd=128&socf=19&pd=0

Norway is not comparable to the UK and certainly the loss of the level of scientific funding we get from the EU would leave our universities in serious decline.

these ph'd places why would they go if we left the EU?

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these ph'd places why would they go if we left the EU?

Lack of cash?

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Proud and magnificent?? Then why is Britain still not an "Empire"???Surely all of these colonies would still want to be in a British Empire Empire, NO? Russia, Italy(marginal depending on your source) France and Germany all have larger populations than the UK, and appear to have more "clout" (Russia excepted) in the EU.

why are you still going on about the British empire?

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Lack of cash?

If we leave the EU. we'd have £16 Billion back in the UK's coffers am sure we can find the £2 million needed to keep funding these Ph'ds even the pointless ones.

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If we leave the EU. we'd have £16 Billion back in the UK's coffers am sure we can find the £2 million needed to keep funding these Ph'ds even the pointless ones.

And loose 195 billion in services charges from the Citi to the continent.

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why are you still going on about the British empire?

Why do you still go on about "proud and magnificent"? What is your basis for such claims? Not in recent history that is for sure.... Sucking up to the USA Govt of the moment does not make UK "magnificent", it makes it a "lap-dog"

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And loose 195 billion in services charges from the Citi to the continent.

there you go again, what utter rubbish.

Why do you still go on about "proud and magnificent"? What is your basis for such claims? Not in recent history that is for sure.... Sucking up to the USA Govt of the moment does not make UK "magnificent", it makes it a "lap-dog"

what's your problem?

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there you go again, what utter rubbish.

Why would the EU leave Britain as the EU's biggest trading place if it is not a member? That is no rubbish, that is my interests come before yours.

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there you go again, what utter rubbish.

what's your problem?

Answer the question.... What is magnificent and glorious about the UK?

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Answer the question.... What is magnificent and glorious about the UK?

absolutely nothing.

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