New World Super-Power forming in Europe?

[Black Red Devil]

However EU is not a help for doing this - at the current moment EU is only of "larger size" than UK, but it is surely not better armed anyhow and completely lacks the resources. Being on her own, UK has all resources needed and money to buy the extra if required - EU would consume the resources UK has and still would need to fight for more. Such fight can be political, but also can be a physical one - thus UK, which alone feels OK, may find itself participating in a war targeting to provide Greece or Poland with fuels...

What resources does the UK have? The reason Britain became an empire was because they could suck out all the resources from its colonies, not because of theirs.

There are around 500 million citizens of the EU and there are another 1.5 billion people who depend completely on the EU as their biggest trading partner and their biggest source of credit, foreign investment, and aid. These two billion people form one-third of the world's population. The EU has a better economy than superpowers like Russia and 4 of its nations are part of the G8. It has stronger Political power than booming economies like China and India. Geograhically its location between Asia and Africa allows it to have strategic influence in world affairs.

Culturally nobody enters into the EU unless they adopt democratic principles and leave outside old garbage they've accumulated over milleniums. Lets not forget Europe has been at the centre of all major wars since civilisation has existed. Today the EU has put an end to all the bickering between the various nations. You keep on talking about becoming a superpower through war. This is the old cold war mentality. The EU does not need to fight wars because, like I said, it has enough trading ground, a solid economy, political influence and strong cultural ties and strength. All the necessary requirements to become a superpower. It is also part of NATO in case its territory gets attacked. The EU would loose a strong partner if the UK dropped out but then the UK would have to compete against a next door neighbour with 400+ million people with a vast trading influence in the world.

The sole reason why Norway stays out of EU is that Norway has loads of oil, which it prefers to sell to EU, rather than to give away; same situation or almost the same is with UK. EU would never become a world leader, because for this one needs to fight a war, and EU lacks resources to do this; as such EU also can only expect a role of second fiddle!

Norway and the UK with loads of oil? All of Europe only makes up less than 1% of oil reserves in the world! Don't know if "loads of oil" is the right description. More like "just enough to survive today, not sure what tomorrow brings".

Edited November 28, 2009 by BlackRedLittleDevil

[ExpandMyMind]

blackred, we have an abundance of coal.

the oil has nothing to do with us, it's completely privatised and we don't benefit in the slightest from it. that would take a revolution. but coal. there's still a shitload of untapped coal reserves, as far as i'm aware. not to mention biofuel plants, nuclear plants, wind farms (we have an abundance of that the further north you go.... unfortunately ) and other alternative energy sources being investigated, built and created.

why would leaving the EU mean trade would have to change? it benefits all parties to do things the way we are right now, regardless of membership.

we're not a people who are lost in the past, thinking that we're still world powers (although in fairness we have the fourth largest army, nukes and a seat on the security council, so we're not exactly small fry in the grand scheme of things). the only people who think like that are old-timers from WW2 who can't understand or accept what's happened. people like me, steve and the rest of us from later generations have no disillusions about where we stand in the world. we're not clinging on to our past as many have put it. we just simply want to be left alone to run our own country in our own way, without the interferance from outside governments and institutions, especially non elected ones.

yet we get all this crap for wanting to be free? what bullsh*t.

[stevewinn]

blackred, we have an abundance of coal.

the oil has nothing to do with us, it's completely privatised and we don't benefit in the slightest from it. that would take a revolution. but coal. there's still a shitload of untapped coal reserves, as far as i'm aware. not to mention biofuel plants, nuclear plants, wind farms (we have an abundance of that the further north you go.... unfortunately ) and other alternative energy sources being investigated, built and created.

why would leaving the EU mean trade would have to change? it benefits all parties to do things the way we are right now, regardless of membership.

we're not a people who are lost in the past, thinking that we're still world powers (although in fairness we have the fourth largest army, nukes and a seat on the security council, so we're not exactly small fry in the grand scheme of things). the only people who think like that are old-timers from WW2 who can't understand or accept what's happened. people like me, steve and the rest of us from later generations have no disillusions about where we stand in the world. we're not clinging on to our past as many have put it. we just simply want to be left alone to run our own country in our own way, without the interferance from outside governments and institutions, especially non elected ones.

yet we get all this crap for wanting to be free? what bullsh*t.

well said mate. when people talk about trade being affected its just scaremongering, repeating a false notion, because in truth they have nothing else to go on. trading is a two way street.

We can trade with Europe, be good friends with Europe. but we dont want to be ruled by Europe. 70% but the latest figure is 85% of our laws are made by Europe. implementing all these laws and diktats is costing British business £80 Billion pounds a year. ( British Chambers of Commerce )

and the list goes on. because 31% of British agricultural imports come from outside the EU, and because they come from outside the EU these are subjected to the Common External Tariff. costing us £15.5 Billion a year. (British Chambers of Commerce)

and the story just keeps on repeating itself for ever single sector, in short its costing each and every person in the UK £2,000 a year to be members of the EU.

[Mattshark]

well said mate. when people talk about trade being affected its just scaremongering, repeating a false notion, because in truth they have nothing else to go on. trading is a two way street.

We can trade with Europe, be good friends with Europe. but we dont want to be ruled by Europe. 70% but the latest figure is 85% of our laws are made by Europe. implementing all these laws and diktats is costing British business £80 Billion pounds a year. ( British Chambers of Commerce )

and the list goes on. because 31% of British agricultural imports come from outside the EU, and because they come from outside the EU these are subjected to the Common External Tariff. costing us £15.5 Billion a year. (British Chambers of Commerce)

and the story just keeps on repeating itself for ever single sector, in short its costing each and every person in the UK £2,000 a year to be members of the EU.

Again you fail to acknowledge any of the incoming money.

[questionmark]

Again you fail to acknowledge any of the incoming money.

And the reason why the financial centre of the EU is in London.

\

[stevewinn]

Again you fail to acknowledge any of the incoming money.

I have not failed to acknowledge the incoming, because those figures above are taken after we have received money coming in. it would be foolish of me to post figures which didn't take account of the EU money.

And the reason why the financial centre of the EU is in London.\

and tell the boys and girls why.

[ExpandMyMind]

Again you fail to acknowledge any of the incoming money.

i'm not sure how we ever could have survived before the EU....

you talk about money coming in, which is fair enough, but there's money going out because of this too! money that isn't ever contributed to being part of the EU. many, many things, like illegal immigration due to there being no borders in europe. or normal immigration, which labour would not have been able to abuse in such an epic manner if we weren't part of the EU and people still had to apply for little things called visas. now the country is fekkin ridden with eastern european gangsters! not to mention gypsies and heaps of immigrants who have no intention of spending the minimum wage money earned in this country, in this country (that's not to mention the ones who come over here just to leech off the government). instead they send their wage packets home to their families (how does this benefit our economy), which we also pay childcare for (by the by). and by and large, they live packed like sardines into 2 bedroom houses, saving spending yet more money made from our country, in our country. and to top this off, they have no intention of absorbing into our society. (sorry, that was a bit of a rant).

without the EU, we would have none of these moronic, bottom of the barrel immigrants flooding our country, taking us for everything they can get. we would instead have a system where you would have to be a skilled worker, a future productive member of society in order to come in.

and all this is before we even get started on the money britain officially puts into the EU, propping up these eastern european countries who wouldn't pi*s on a brit to put out a fire. the EU can take their damned 'bribes' back mate, keep their money.

[Mattshark]

and tell the boys and girls why.

Well it not because the UK is the most financially powerful nation in the EU, that would be the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

But then if you remove London from the UK we have an economy similar to Portugal.

[Mattshark]

i'm not sure how we ever could have survived before the EU....

Think you'll find we were not in the best position at the time.

you talk about money coming in, which is fair enough, but there's money going out because of this too! money that isn't ever contributed to being part of the EU. many, many things, like illegal immigration due to there being no borders in europe. or normal immigration, which labour would not have been able to abuse in such an epic manner if we weren't part of the EU and people still had to apply for little things called visas. now the country is fekkin ridden with eastern european gangsters! not to mention gypsies and heaps of immigrants who have no intention of spending the minimum wage money earned in this country, in this country (that's not to mention the ones who come over here just to leech off the government). instead they send their wage packets home to their families (how does this benefit our economy), which we also pay childcare for (by the by). and by and large, they live packed like sardines into 2 bedroom houses, saving spending yet more money made from our country, in our country. and to top this off, they have no intention of absorbing into our society. (sorry, that was a bit of a rant).

People outside of the EU do have to apply for visa's. Immigrant workers kept our economy running. Not like we have never done things like that though, I mean if we did we would have programs like Auf weidersien pet............................. oh wait. The joys of hypocrisy.

without the EU, we would have none of these moronic, bottom of the barrel immigrants flooding our country, taking us for everything they can get. we would instead have a system where you would have to be a skilled worker, a future productive member of society in order to come in.

Of course. I mean it is a load of rubbish, but if it helps you feel better.

and all this is before we even get started on the money britain officially puts into the EU, propping up these eastern european countries who wouldn't pi*s on a brit to put out a fire. the EU can take their damned 'bribes' back mate, keep their money.

Don't let reality get in the way of your rant.

[ExpandMyMind]

Think you'll find we were not in the best position at the time.

i think you'll find that neither were many countries in the world, economically, at that time.

People outside of the EU do have to apply for visa's.

where did i mention immigrants from outside of the EU? oh that's right, i was talking about european immigrants. (although many of the illegal immigrants i spoke of have been able to migrate west, through europe and into britain, as a result of the EU)

Immigrant workers kept our economy running.

crap that is impossible for you to prove.

Not like we have never done things like that though, I mean if we did we would have programs like Auf weidersien pet............................. oh wait. The joys of hypocrisy.

LMAO. you seriously bring a TV programme from the 80's into this as a way to justify your argument? and they were skilled workers putting something back into the german economy to boot! see, british workers that emmigrated across europe were skilled workers. i have no problem with skilled workers matty.

Of course. I mean it is a load of rubbish, but if it helps you feel better.

well thought out reply there matt....

Don't let reality get in the way of your rant.

and again, masterful reply!

Edited November 28, 2009 by expandmymind

[ExpandMyMind]

well said mate. when people talk about trade being affected its just scaremongering, repeating a false notion, because in truth they have nothing else to go on. trading is a two way street.

We can trade with Europe, be good friends with Europe. but we dont want to be ruled by Europe. 70% but the latest figure is 85% of our laws are made by Europe. implementing all these laws and diktats is costing British business £80 Billion pounds a year. ( British Chambers of Commerce )

and the list goes on. because 31% of British agricultural imports come from outside the EU, and because they come from outside the EU these are subjected to the Common External Tariff. costing us £15.5 Billion a year. (British Chambers of Commerce)

and the story just keeps on repeating itself for ever single sector, in short its costing each and every person in the UK £2,000 a year to be members of the EU.

but ste-e-e-ve. what about all that money we recieve! lol.

Edited November 28, 2009 by expandmymind

[Mattshark]

LMAO. you seriously bring a TV programme from the 80's into this as a way to justify your argument? and they were skilled workers putting something back into the german economy to boot! see, british workers that emmigrated across europe were skilled workers. i have no problem with skilled workers matty.

It existed because such things were happening.

So that is not the same as Polish workers in the UK? Oh wait, yes it is.

crap that is impossible for you to prove.

So is your existence, good job we have evidence isn't it.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Mattshark

[ExpandMyMind]

It existed because such things were happening.

So that is not the same as Polish workers in the UK? Oh wait, yes it is.

no it isn't. how many polish workers do you know in britain who are skilled? a tiny, tiny, percentage.

[questionmark]

no it isn't. how many polish workers do you know in britain who are skilled? a tiny, tiny, percentage.

The more interesting question is: How many Britons were interested ion the jobs they were doing?

[ExpandMyMind]

The more interesting question is: How many Britons were interested ion the jobs they were doing?

plenty. this isn't like in the US where there's an abundance of mexicans working for peanuts, doing jobs that no-one else would do. the minimum wage in this country is not to be laughed at. it's by far the best thing to come from the labour government.

[questionmark]

plenty. this isn't like in the US where there's an abundance of mexicans working for peanuts, doing jobs that no-one else would do. the minimum wage in this country is not to be laughed at. it's by far the best thing to come from the labour government.

Then tell me why in Birmingham most of the Poles were bus drivers...no unemployed around there or something?

Why did the Lothian bus line (in Sunny Scotland)have to go get people from Poland? Nobody unemployed in Scotland or something?

It is easy to protest about foreigners working, especially when having all the time in the world sitting on a park bench emptying one ale can after the next.

[stevewinn]

Matt you are wrong about immigration keeping our economy going. that's a myth which was spun by the labour government.

the parliamentary report by the Lords Economic Affairs Committee, laid this to bed, their conclusion was that immigration should be capped, it showed that record numbers of new immigrants have had little or no impact on the economic well being of the United Kingdom.

Edited November 28, 2009 by stevewinn

[ExpandMyMind]

Then tell me why in Birmingham most of the Poles were bus drivers...no unemployed around there or something?

Why did the Lothian bus line (in Sunny Scotland)have to go get people from Poland? Nobody unemployed in Scotland or something?

It is easy to protest about foreigners working, especially when having all the time in the world sitting on a park bench emptying one ale can after the next.

so we're talking about a shortage of (i use the term loosely) skilled workers, bus drivers. i see nothing wrong with that. you need a special license to drive a bus, if there aren't enough people with that license here then there's nothing wrong with bringing in anyone, from any country, to fill the gaps. it's not as though there's an abundance of people with an LVG license sitting on their ar*es doing nothing. that's hardly what we were talking about, not to mention the numbers we're talking about here are miniscule.

It is easy to protest about foreigners working, especially when having all the time in the world sitting on a park bench emptying one ale can after the next.

not sure what you mean by that statement.

[questionmark]

so we're talking about a shortage of (i use the term loosely) skilled workers, bus drivers. i see nothing wrong with that. you need a special license to drive a bus, if there aren't enough people with that license here then there's nothing wrong with bringing in anyone, from any country, to fill the gaps. it's not as though there's an abundance of people with an LVG license sitting on their ar*es doing nothing. that's hardly what we were talking about, not to mention the numbers we're talking about here are miniscule.

It is easy to protest about foreigners working, especially when having all the time in the world sitting on a park bench emptying one ale can after the next.

not sure what you mean by that statement.

Because of the differences in traffic rules between the Continent and Britain all those drivers had to be retrained anyway...so why not train some unemployed to get them off the park bench?

[ExpandMyMind]

Because of the differences in traffic rules between the Continent and Britain all those drivers had to be retrained anyway...so why not train some unemployed to get them off the park bench?

they and other companies do. they even offer to put non-drivers through their normal license first, then the LVG. and the 'retraining' you mention is nothing more than a formality. similar to british HGV drivers going to australia, they need to go through the motions for health and safety/insurance reasons.

edit - i can assure you that if the government offered people who 'sign on' training for any sort of license (they already do it with forklift license which has helped a great many) then people would jump at the chance. but unfortunately, driving in this country is nothing more than a gigantic government money making scheme. and to train people in this way would cost said government way too much.

Edited November 28, 2009 by expandmymind

[questionmark]

they and other companies do. they even offer to put non-drivers through their normal license first, then the LVG. and the 'retraining' you mention is nothing more than a formality. similar to british HGV drivers going to australia, they need to go through the motions for health and safety/insurance reasons.

Which even reinforces my point...they had to get those Poles to fill jobs that hardly anybody in Britain wanted. Because at the same time the unemployment rate in Scotland was around 6% and in Birmingham around 7%. Nobody can tell me that there was nobody around on the dole who could not have been trained to drive a bus.

[ExpandMyMind]

Which even reinforces my point...they had to get those Poles to fill jobs that hardly anybody in Britain wanted. Because at the same time the unemployment rate in Scotland was around 6% and in Birmingham around 7%. Nobody can tell me that there was nobody around on the dole who could not have been trained to drive a bus.

which reinforces my earlier point - skilled workers are welcome when there is a shortage in the field, no matter where they come from.

Nobody can tell me that there was nobody around on the dole who could not have been trained to drive a bus.

i have already answered that.

edit - i can assure you that if the government offered people who 'sign on' training for any sort of license (they already do it with forklift license which has helped a great many) then people would jump at the chance. but unfortunately, driving in this country is nothing more than a gigantic government money making scheme. and to train people in this way would cost said government way too much.

if the jobcentre offered a scheme that trained people this way you would have thousands upon thousands, if not hundreds of thousands jump at the chance. our government does not work that way. in fact i'm willing to bet that the poles they 'trained' probably had to pay for their own training. most likely from future wages. something else that if our government offered it's own citizens, you would find them jump at the chance.

[stevewinn]

which reinforces my earlier point - skilled workers are welcome when there is a shortage in the field, no matter where they come from.

Nobody can tell me that there was nobody around on the dole who could not have been trained to drive a bus.

i have already answered that.

if the jobcentre offered a scheme that trained people this way you would have thousands upon thousands, if not hundreds of thousands jump at the chance. our government does not work that way. in fact i'm willing to bet that the poles they 'trained' probably had to pay for their own training. most likely from future wages. something else that if our government offered it's own citizens, you would find them jump at the chance.

Q, when it comes to jobs and training Exapndmymind is correct.

The government has simply not done enough, when it comes to training British people for skilled jobs, there is just not enough apprenticeships for everyone. which is the governments fault.

if the government had apprenticeships in place where no-one was left behind, and everyone had access to training then we wouldn't need foreigners coming over filling in the "gaps"

its governments poor performance yet again.

[questionmark]

Q, when it comes to jobs and training Exapndmymind is correct.

The government has simply not done enough, when it comes to training British people for skilled jobs, there is just not enough apprenticeships for everyone. which is the governments fault.

if the government had apprenticeships in place where no-one was left behind, and everyone had access to training then we wouldn't need foreigners coming over filling in the "gaps"

its governments poor performance yet again.

Yeh...could be but that is not this government's fault but has been that way since the 60s.

[ExpandMyMind]

the benefits from apprenticeship type jobs are numerous. think about it. it's the type of job a father can teach his son, creating family businesses, for one. not to mention they're well paid, especially if you're good. some, you don't need an academic education. the list goes on.

the government should be doing way more to promote this scheme because in this day and age, a lot of employers just can't afford to take them on.

anyways i think i've gone a bit off-topic.