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New World Super-Power forming in Europe?


Karlis
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Here is a comment from people who lived through a history that just -- maybe -- may repeat itself.

Hard to believe? Only time will tell I guess

Twenty Years after the Fall of the Berlin Wall, the EU is a Reincarnation of the Former Soviet Union

... Most European governments today are using time-honored Stasi techniques to keep their citizens under surveillance. However, technology has advanced so impressively since the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989, that today's government spooks glean more information on unwitting civilians than the most fanatical Stasi agent would have hoped for in his wildest fantasies.

As recently as 2006,
a most eloquent and insightful warning against the EU and the Lisbon Treaty's precursor, the ill-fated “constitution”, was given by former Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovsky.

Traumatized by the experience of living in the Soviet Union,
Bukovsky noted the deeply disturbing similarities between the old Soviet Union and the blueprints for the EU super state.
The European Commission, he noted, was the exact equivalent of the old Soviet Politbureau, in terms of the secretive way power was exercised, the recruitment and personalities of its members and the scope and reach of its decisions. The “European Parliament” today (and under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty) is a mere rubber stamp institution, just like the “Supreme Soviet” of the old USSR.

As a matter of fact,
there are so many similarities between the old Soviet Union and the EU that mere coincidence is unlikely.
Bukovsky argues the EU was designed to be like the old USSR. The architects of the EU? Mostly social democrats, whom Stalin quite aptly called “Social Fascists.”

Most Europeans have not yet understood this. Most are still indifferent, but their indifference will soon vanish when the full weight of repressive EU policies and EU taxation doing its destructive work will be felt. ...

Pravda?

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Pravda?

Not only that but a five year old could see that the article is moronic.

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Pravda?

Yes Questionmark; "Pravda OnLine". Not to be confused of "Pravda" the defunct Communist Party Paper of years ago. :P

Pravda (Russian: Правда, "Truth") was a leading newspaper of the Soviet Union and an official organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party between 1912 and 1991.

The Pravda newspaper was started in 1912 in St. Petersburg. It was converted from a weekly Zvezda. It did not arrive in Moscow until 1918. During the Cold War, Pravda was well known in the West for its pronouncements as the official voice of Soviet Communism. (Similarly Izvestia was the official voice of the Soviet government.)

After the paper was closed down in 1991 by decree of then President Boris Yeltsin, many of the staff founded a new paper with the same name, which is now a tabloid-style Russian news source.

There is an unaffiliated Internet-based newspaper, Pravda Online (www.Pravda.ru) run by former Pravda newspaper employees. ...

Read about it in wicki

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Yes Questionmark; "Pravda OnLine". Not to be confused of "Pravda" the defunct Communist Party Paper of years ago. :P

Pravda (Russian: Правда, "Truth") was a leading newspaper of the Soviet Union and an official organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party between 1912 and 1991.

The Pravda newspaper was started in 1912 in St. Petersburg. It was converted from a weekly Zvezda. It did not arrive in Moscow until 1918. During the Cold War, Pravda was well known in the West for its pronouncements as the official voice of Soviet Communism. (Similarly Izvestia was the official voice of the Soviet government.)

After the paper was closed down in 1991 by decree of then President Boris Yeltsin, many of the staff founded a new paper with the same name, which is now a tabloid-style Russian news source.

There is an unaffiliated Internet-based newspaper, Pravda Online (www.Pravda.ru) run by former Pravda newspaper employees. ...

Read about it in wicki

And it is considered one of the most unreliable sources around. It makes the Scum look like a quality news source.

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Trade with europe be good neighbours with europe but why should we have our laws made by europe. why should we accept any of it when it comes from bureaucrats who are not directly elected by the British people.

IF the european union is so great why is it the French people voted no, why did the Dutch people vote no, why did the Irish vote no, in all three cases the peoples of France, Holland and Ireland where not listened to, their vote didnt matter, the political elite decided to carry on regardless. in France and Holland they were never asked to vote again. in Ireland they where made to vote again because the first time around the people voted the wrong way by voting NO. but instead of no meaning no the EU was not pleased at all so the people of Ireland where made to vote a second time, and told this time to make sure they vote correctly by voting YES after bullyboy tactics being used.

What a beautiful Union it is, one where voting doesnt count, unless of course its the correct answer which is in line with what the political elite want. dont you just love democracy.

Napoleon tried to create a european empire, then the germans tried it in the great war. and here we are now being annexed in peace, they are succeeding with the pen where they failed with the sword.

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Not only that but a five year old could see that the article is moronic.

Hi Matt -- Are you saying that Vladimir Bukovsky is a moron, by any chance?

Vladimir Bukovsky is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

Bukovsky is a former Soviet political dissident, author, and activist. He spent a total of twelve years in Soviet prisons, labor camps, and forced-treatment psychiatric hospitals.

Bukovsky is the author and editor of various books describing his experience. He managed to smuggle out of the archives a series of documents including KGB reports to the Central Committee, which were later published electronically under the name Soviet Archives. The collection of documents was later massively quoted in Bukovsky�s Judgement in Moscow (1994) based on his experience in 1992 with what he had hoped would be a Nuremberg-style trial for the CPSU before the Constitutional Court of Russia.

He is also the author of Soul of Man Under Socialism (1979), To Build a Castle: My Life as a Dissenter (1979), and Soviet Hypocrisy and Western Gullibility (1987). Settled in Cambridge, England, since 1976, he has in recent years repeatedly called for Russian liberals to stand up to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin�s unconstitutional behavior. In 2004 he was one of the founders of the Committee 2008 whose purpose is to ensure free and fair elections in Russia. Read more here

Since 1976 Bukovsky has lived in Cambridge, England, focusing on neurophysiology and writing.

He received a Masters Degree in Biology and has written several books and political essays.

In addition to criticizing the Soviet government, he also picked apart what he calls "Western gullibility", a lack of a tough stand of Western liberalism against Communist abuses.

In 1983, together with Vladimir Maximov and Eduard Kuznetsov he cofounded and was elected president of international anti-Communist organization Resistance International (Интернационал сопротивления).

In 1985, together with Albert Jolis, Armondo Valladares, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Midge Decter and Yuri Yarim-Agaev founded the American Foundation for Resistance International, later joined by Richard Perle and Martin Colman became the coordinating center for the dissidents and democracy movements seeking to overturn communism, it organized protests in the communist countries and opposed western financial assistance for the communist governments. It had a primary role in the coordination of the opposition which was instrumental in the demise of communism. It also created of the National Council To Support The Democracy Movements (National Council For Democracy) which, helped establish democratic Rule of Law Governments and assisted with the writing of their constitutions and civil structures. …

… In April 1991 Vladimir Bukovsky visited Moscow for the first time since his forced deportation.

In the run-up to the 1991 presidential election Boris Yeltsin's campaign considered Bukovsky as a potential vice-presidential running-mate (other contenders included Galina Starovoitova and Gennady Burbulis). In the end, the vice-presidency was offered to Alexander Rutskoi.

In 1992, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, President Yeltsin's government invited Bukovsky to serve as an expert to testify at the CPSU trial by Constitutional Court of Russia, where the communists were suing Yeltsin for banning their party. The respondent's case was that the CPSU itself had been an unconstitutional organization.

To prepare for his testimony, Bukovsky requested and was granted access to a large number of documents from Soviet archives (then reorganized into TsKhSD). Using a small handheld scanner and a laptop computer, he managed to secretly scan many documents (some with high security clearance), including KGB reports to the Central Committee, and smuggle the files to the West.[5] The event that many expected would be another Nuremberg Trial and the beginnings of reconciliation with the Communist past, ended up in half-measures: while the CPSU was found unconstitutional, the communists were allowed to form new parties in the future. Bukovsky expressed his deep disappointment with this in his writings and interviews:

"Having failed to finish off conclusively the communist system, we are now in danger of integrating the resulting monster into our world. It may not be called communism anymore, but it retained many of its dangerous characteristics... Until the Nuremberg-style tribunal passes its judgment on all the crimes committed by communism, it is not dead and the war is not over.[6]"

It took several years and a team of assistants to compose the scanned pieces together and publish it (see Soviet Archives, collected by Vladimir Bukovsky, prepared for electronic publishing by Julia Zaks and Leonid Chernikhov). The same collection of documents is also massively quoted in Bukovsky's Judgement in Moscow, which was published in 1994, translated to many languages and attracted international attention.

Wiki source here

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British: Oh yes, and their part of the EU is mostly to drain funds out of it and complain loudly about how nasty it is.

French: Erhm, when did the French become world conquerors? They had a bunch of colonies at most.

Portuguese: Yeah, they had some power, most of it economical though.

Germans: While they did have a vast amount of land in WW2, it was mostly in Europe.(not so much in WW1, and hell, they weren't really to blame for that debacle. Not single-handedly anyhow)

Italy/Rome: Yeah, Rome is gone since about 1500 years. Italy is too corrupt and squabbling to be much of a threat.

Im disappointed you didn't include the Dutch and the Vikings.

you forgot Napoleon, i hope your not going to blame that back water country who killed their own prince for world war 1. the germans were just looking for an excuse.

you also forgot about venice and the other italian town. true they were economical powers but still.

the dutch are vikings. i just forgot about them when i posted.

by the way most of the vikings were germans.

the british pound is worth a lot more than the eu dollar.

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Hi Matt -- Are you saying that Vladimir Bukovsky is a moron, by any chance?

Vladimir Bukovsky is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

Bukovsky is a former Soviet political dissident, author, and activist. He spent a total of twelve years in Soviet prisons, labor camps, and forced-treatment psychiatric hospitals.

Bukovsky is the author and editor of various books describing his experience. He managed to smuggle out of the archives a series of documents including KGB reports to the Central Committee, which were later published electronically under the name Soviet Archives. The collection of documents was later massively quoted in Bukovsky�s Judgement in Moscow (1994) based on his experience in 1992 with what he had hoped would be a Nuremberg-style trial for the CPSU before the Constitutional Court of Russia.

He is also the author of Soul of Man Under Socialism (1979), To Build a Castle: My Life as a Dissenter (1979), and Soviet Hypocrisy and Western Gullibility (1987). Settled in Cambridge, England, since 1976, he has in recent years repeatedly called for Russian liberals to stand up to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin�s unconstitutional behavior. In 2004 he was one of the founders of the Committee 2008 whose purpose is to ensure free and fair elections in Russia. Read more here

Since 1976 Bukovsky has lived in Cambridge, England, focusing on neurophysiology and writing.

He received a Masters Degree in Biology and has written several books and political essays.

In addition to criticizing the Soviet government, he also picked apart what he calls "Western gullibility", a lack of a tough stand of Western liberalism against Communist abuses.

In 1983, together with Vladimir Maximov and Eduard Kuznetsov he cofounded and was elected president of international anti-Communist organization Resistance International (Интернационал сопротивления).

In 1985, together with Albert Jolis, Armondo Valladares, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Midge Decter and Yuri Yarim-Agaev founded the American Foundation for Resistance International, later joined by Richard Perle and Martin Colman became the coordinating center for the dissidents and democracy movements seeking to overturn communism, it organized protests in the communist countries and opposed western financial assistance for the communist governments. It had a primary role in the coordination of the opposition which was instrumental in the demise of communism. It also created of the National Council To Support The Democracy Movements (National Council For Democracy) which, helped establish democratic Rule of Law Governments and assisted with the writing of their constitutions and civil structures. …

… In April 1991 Vladimir Bukovsky visited Moscow for the first time since his forced deportation.

In the run-up to the 1991 presidential election Boris Yeltsin's campaign considered Bukovsky as a potential vice-presidential running-mate (other contenders included Galina Starovoitova and Gennady Burbulis). In the end, the vice-presidency was offered to Alexander Rutskoi.

In 1992, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, President Yeltsin's government invited Bukovsky to serve as an expert to testify at the CPSU trial by Constitutional Court of Russia, where the communists were suing Yeltsin for banning their party. The respondent's case was that the CPSU itself had been an unconstitutional organization.

To prepare for his testimony, Bukovsky requested and was granted access to a large number of documents from Soviet archives (then reorganized into TsKhSD). Using a small handheld scanner and a laptop computer, he managed to secretly scan many documents (some with high security clearance), including KGB reports to the Central Committee, and smuggle the files to the West.[5] The event that many expected would be another Nuremberg Trial and the beginnings of reconciliation with the Communist past, ended up in half-measures: while the CPSU was found unconstitutional, the communists were allowed to form new parties in the future. Bukovsky expressed his deep disappointment with this in his writings and interviews:

"Having failed to finish off conclusively the communist system, we are now in danger of integrating the resulting monster into our world. It may not be called communism anymore, but it retained many of its dangerous characteristics... Until the Nuremberg-style tribunal passes its judgment on all the crimes committed by communism, it is not dead and the war is not over.[6]"

It took several years and a team of assistants to compose the scanned pieces together and publish it (see Soviet Archives, collected by Vladimir Bukovsky, prepared for electronic publishing by Julia Zaks and Leonid Chernikhov). The same collection of documents is also massively quoted in Bukovsky's Judgement in Moscow, which was published in 1994, translated to many languages and attracted international attention.

Wiki source here

If he thinks the EU is like the USSR, then yes.

But since he is a Russian politician (potentially proof of idiocy ;)) then we can probably take it as bas rhetoric.

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And it is considered one of the most unreliable sources around. It makes the Scum look like a quality news source.

And the onion is more veracious.

But then again, sometimes I use them too if I want to polemize ^_^

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you forgot Napoleon, i hope your not going to blame that back water country who killed their own prince for world war 1. the germans were just looking for an excuse.

you also forgot about venice and the other italian town. true they were economical powers but still.

the dutch are vikings. i just forgot about them when i posted.

by the way most of the vikings were germans.

the british pound is worth a lot more than the eu dollar.

Vikings were Danes, Sweds, and Norse. The Dutch and Germans were completely different. And everyone was looking for an excuse during the First World War, not just the Germans.

And would the other Italian city be Genova? They had an economic empire at one time if I recall correctly.

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Vikings were Danes, Sweds, and Norse. The Dutch and Germans were completely different. And everyone was looking for an excuse during the First World War, not just the Germans.

And would the other Italian city be Genova? They had an economic empire at one time if I recall correctly.

Genova was short lived, Venice ruled much longer.

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Oh yes no doubt, though at one point there did have some economic power. Off hand it's the only other Italian city that had wide influence in the Med.

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If he thinks the EU is like the USSR, then yes.

Matt, do you feel that you have more understanding of politics involving Europe-Russia than Vladimir Bukovsky? If so, it would be nice if you could give your background for such a claim -- especially since you actually think he is a moron, because he gives parallels of how Communism worked and how politics in Europe is now developing.

But since he is a Russian politician (potentially proof of idiocy ;))

Logic or ad hominem? Your 'smiley' indicates you are not serious here, right? :)

then we can probably take it as bas rhetoric.

Matt, if you look back through your posts on this thread, I think you would have to admit that you have given no arguments to back up your ad hominem remarks. On the other hand, Bukovsky in his article provided some reasoned arguments, backed by a lifetime of personal experience.

Just a thought,

Karlis

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you forgot Napoleon, i hope your not going to blame that back water country who killed their own prince for world war 1. the germans were just looking for an excuse.

you also forgot about venice and the other italian town. true they were economical powers but still.

the dutch are vikings. i just forgot about them when i posted.

by the way most of the vikings were germans.

the british pound is worth a lot more than the eu dollar.

Napoleon was also, a mostly euro-centered conqueror.

Dutch and Germans, Vikings? Yehgad man! That's an insult to both sides!

Yeah, it is. But the EU currency is called "Euro" not Eu dollar.

Now, I don't like the EU a great deal, but it is not some new version of the Reich or the USSR. If anything it's looking moe like an unholy mix between a liberal-economy and a bickering parliamentary.

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Now, I don't like the EU a great deal, but it is not some new version of the Reich or the USSR. If anything it's looking moe like an unholy mix between a liberal-economy and a bickering parliamentary.

What? Parliament? Now you are also going to say That it is actually elected and that the Commission is only the executive? And you are going to tel;l me also that those who keep claiming in their election campaigns that the EU is not a democracy have formed their own block in the Strasbourg parliament?

You would be right... the EU is the only democracy its constituents don't care about or claim it is no such thing.

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What? Parliament? Now you are also going to say That it is actually elected and that the Commission is only the executive? And you are going to tel;l me also that those who keep claiming in their election campaigns that the EU is not a democracy have formed their own block in the Strasbourg parliament?

You would be right... the EU is the only democracy its constituents don't care about or claim it is no such thing.

Look, in my opinion, the EU promises much but delivers little in many respects. The EU cannot be a democracy because that would suggest a unified or federal Europe. It is not either of these.

For true democracy (none such exist) then criminalise lobbyists, criminalise "big business", and outlaw Party politics that answer to their own parties and not to the people.

There is no answer to this, we are all culpable in allowing this to happen

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Look, in my opinion, the EU promises much but delivers little in many respects. The EU cannot be a democracy because that would suggest a unified or federal Europe. It is not either of these.

For true democracy (none such exist) then criminalise lobbyists, criminalise "big business", and outlaw Party politics that answer to their own parties and not to the people.

There is no answer to this, we are all culpable in allowing this to happen

The EU functions just as any other federal state, where all interested parties have their representation, The EU itself the Commission, the member countries have the Council and the people the Parliament. Without the parliament nothing goes. And if anybody feels his interest are not met he/she can always file a case against it at the European Court. That this is not easily understood in countries with a central government is pretty normal.

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The EU functions just as any other federal state, where all interested parties have their representation, The EU itself the Commission, the member countries have the Council and the people the Parliament. Without the parliament nothing goes. And if anybody feels his interest are not met he/she can always file a case against it at the European Court. That this is not easily understood in countries with a central government is pretty normal.

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, the EU does not actually function as a Federated state.... the instruments of Federation include common foreign policy, common standing force, common nationwide Taxing regimes. These are not apparent in the EU.

I really do think that the people of the EU, all nationalities, should try to bring accountability to the EU, but lets be honest, the people in the USA cannot achieve this, why would the people of the EU have any more success? Division will always be down "party Lines"....

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Matt, do you feel that you have more understanding of politics involving Europe-Russia than Vladimir Bukovsky? If so, it would be nice if you could give your background for such a claim -- especially since you actually think he is a moron, because he gives parallels of how Communism worked and how politics in Europe is now developing.

I know for a fact that the EU doesn't resemble the USSR (if it did that would be a selling point to a lot of Russians). He doesn't, there is nothing even quote in the article, just claims from something he is reported to have said in 2006.

Logic or ad hominem? Your 'smiley' indicates you are not serious here, right? :)

No it wasn't serious. Him being a politician does rule out his trustworthiness though :P

Matt, if you look back through your posts on this thread, I think you would have to admit that you have given no arguments to back up your ad hominem remarks. On the other hand, Bukovsky in his article provided some reasoned arguments, backed by a lifetime of personal experience.

Just a thought,

Karlis

He (actually he isn't the article is and it contains no quotes from him) is comparing a authoritarian state with the EU which is neither authoritarian nor a state and unlike the USSR has elected members. Meaningless article and a meaningless comparison that is not backed up anywhere except by the author from what is already considered a very low grade source.

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the british pound is worth a lot more than the eu dollar.

Its the Euro not the eu dollar and the exchange rate is 1:0.9 That is not a lot more Daniel.

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Its the Euro not the eu dollar and the exchange rate is 1:0.9 That is not a lot more Daniel.

right now the British Pound gets you €1.11. and only because of the failure of the current prime minister in devaluing our currency.

Go back to this time two years and the Pound was getting €1.55

right now pound against

£1.00 - €1.11 Euro

£1.00 - $1.67 US Dollar

£1.00 - $2.24 NZD (New Zealand)

£1.00 - $1.78 AUD (Australia)

£1.00 - $1.75 CAD (Canada)

Just turn are trade to places where we get better value for money. trouble is with the EU having import taxes for goods that come from outside the Union - protectionism, it raises the costs slightly higher. thats why the United Kingdom should negotiate its own trade deals, with India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc..... and we'd get better value for money again and we'd be keeping it in the family.

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Hi Matt -- Are you saying that Vladimir Bukovsky is a moron, by any chance?

Vladimir Bukovsky is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

Bukovsky is a former Soviet political dissident, author, and activist. He spent a total of twelve years in Soviet prisons, labor camps, and forced-treatment psychiatric hospitals.

Bukovsky is the author and editor of various books describing his experience. He managed to smuggle out of the archives a series of documents including KGB reports to the Central Committee, which were later published electronically under the name Soviet Archives. The collection of documents was later massively quoted in Bukovsky�s Judgement in Moscow (1994) based on his experience in 1992 with what he had hoped would be a Nuremberg-style trial for the CPSU before the Constitutional Court of Russia.

He is also the author of Soul of Man Under Socialism (1979), To Build a Castle: My Life as a Dissenter (1979), and Soviet Hypocrisy and Western Gullibility (1987). Settled in Cambridge, England, since 1976, he has in recent years repeatedly called for Russian liberals to stand up to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin�s unconstitutional behavior. In 2004 he was one of the founders of the Committee 2008 whose purpose is to ensure free and fair elections in Russia. Read more here

Since 1976 Bukovsky has lived in Cambridge, England, focusing on neurophysiology and writing.

He received a Masters Degree in Biology and has written several books and political essays.

In addition to criticizing the Soviet government, he also picked apart what he calls "Western gullibility", a lack of a tough stand of Western liberalism against Communist abuses.

In 1983, together with Vladimir Maximov and Eduard Kuznetsov he cofounded and was elected president of international anti-Communist organization Resistance International (Интернационал сопротивления).

In 1985, together with Albert Jolis, Armondo Valladares, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Midge Decter and Yuri Yarim-Agaev founded the American Foundation for Resistance International, later joined by Richard Perle and Martin Colman became the coordinating center for the dissidents and democracy movements seeking to overturn communism, it organized protests in the communist countries and opposed western financial assistance for the communist governments. It had a primary role in the coordination of the opposition which was instrumental in the demise of communism. It also created of the National Council To Support The Democracy Movements (National Council For Democracy) which, helped establish democratic Rule of Law Governments and assisted with the writing of their constitutions and civil structures. …

… In April 1991 Vladimir Bukovsky visited Moscow for the first time since his forced deportation.

In the run-up to the 1991 presidential election Boris Yeltsin's campaign considered Bukovsky as a potential vice-presidential running-mate (other contenders included Galina Starovoitova and Gennady Burbulis). In the end, the vice-presidency was offered to Alexander Rutskoi.

In 1992, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, President Yeltsin's government invited Bukovsky to serve as an expert to testify at the CPSU trial by Constitutional Court of Russia, where the communists were suing Yeltsin for banning their party. The respondent's case was that the CPSU itself had been an unconstitutional organization.

To prepare for his testimony, Bukovsky requested and was granted access to a large number of documents from Soviet archives (then reorganized into TsKhSD). Using a small handheld scanner and a laptop computer, he managed to secretly scan many documents (some with high security clearance), including KGB reports to the Central Committee, and smuggle the files to the West.[5] The event that many expected would be another Nuremberg Trial and the beginnings of reconciliation with the Communist past, ended up in half-measures: while the CPSU was found unconstitutional, the communists were allowed to form new parties in the future. Bukovsky expressed his deep disappointment with this in his writings and interviews:

"Having failed to finish off conclusively the communist system, we are now in danger of integrating the resulting monster into our world. It may not be called communism anymore, but it retained many of its dangerous characteristics... Until the Nuremberg-style tribunal passes its judgment on all the crimes committed by communism, it is not dead and the war is not over.[6]"

It took several years and a team of assistants to compose the scanned pieces together and publish it (see Soviet Archives, collected by Vladimir Bukovsky, prepared for electronic publishing by Julia Zaks and Leonid Chernikhov). The same collection of documents is also massively quoted in Bukovsky's Judgement in Moscow, which was published in 1994, translated to many languages and attracted international attention.

Wiki source here

Absolutely ridiculous to compare the USSR to the EU. The USSR was a one Party Govt that dominated several countries within their borders with no freedom to vote, the Communist Govt eliminated any affiliation to religion hence denying people their basic freedom of choice, they kept people caged up within their borders, nobody was allowed to complain against the Central Govt with fear of being charged for treason hence denying freedom of expression, people disappeared or ended up in labour camps in Siberia for any reason without a legal trial. Quite some Human Rights issues! The same as in the EU? I doubt it!

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil
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right now the British Pound gets you €1.11. and only because of the failure of the current prime minister in devaluing our currency.

Go back to this time two years and the Pound was getting €1.55

right now pound against

£1.00 - €1.11 Euro

£1.00 - $1.67 US Dollar

£1.00 - $2.24 NZD (New Zealand)

£1.00 - $1.78 AUD (Australia)

£1.00 - $1.75 CAD (Canada)

Just turn are trade to places where we get better value for money. trouble is with the EU having import taxes for goods that come from outside the Union - protectionism, it raises the costs slightly higher. thats why the United Kingdom should negotiate its own trade deals, with India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc..... and we'd get better value for money again and we'd be keeping it in the family.

Just mt idea but I don't think the Commonwealth fits the bill anymore. Australia are going more and more Asia, India are going global and probably don't need the Commonwealth anymore, too small. Not sure about Canada but NZ would be OK if you need lots and lots and lots and lots of sheep. Samoa and Solomon Islands are probably OK too, until they disappear underwater. Not sure about Zambia, Malawi and Uganda! Is Idi Amin still ruling or eating the roost? :P

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Anyone who is ok with thier country being dictated by a foriegn power needs thier head examined.

Agreed - because it is true, and many members see other members as "foreign". But we'll see - Europe is making an experiment in fact, by accelerating this common living space; maybe next generation in all countries would be OK with such system. I would expect at least another 100 years (3-4 generations) before all dust settles and they become one people. And even this if there would be no hiccups like internal conflicts. Sorta Rumania attacks Hungary or Hungary attacks Slovakia... 4th Reich is not really supposed to be a bad thing for everyone, but it would be still 4th Reich, as it is practically a United Europe with strong Germany as a head. Remains to be seen how France and UK would feel themselves in such Union. Maybe this is why Blair is thought to be a President, to pacify Britain?

There is a substantial chance, as I have suggested before, that there would be no union at all, only on paper. The time would show.

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There is a substantial chance, as I have suggested before, that there would be no union at all, only on paper. The time would show.

Most people in Europe see it as the only real chance of any European country to keep any type of relevance. No European country, and that includes Germany, has enough weight to pass the upcoming test of time independently because they just don't bring the mass to stand up to India or China. Europeans can be either a united power or separated vassals...there is nothing in between.

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