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Goodbye, Europe!


MARAB0D

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Contrary to the enthusiasts of 4th Reich, Lisbon treaty did not strengthen, but on the contrary weakened the EU. It is the first document which includes the point of how to leave the EU and terminate the membership. UK is enthusiastic!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8359160.stm

There are many other intriguing aspects of a UK exit.

How would Scottish opinion respond? How would the transition in farming and fisheries work, as the UK extricated itself from common EU policies?

Also, what would happen to the residence and working rights of EU citizens in Britain, and British citizens abroad?

Sir Stephen Wall, who is very keen on the UK remaining in the EU, concedes that in economic terms, the consequences of leaving should not be exaggerated. "Catastrophe it isn't," he says.

But, in the end, he would expect a major loss of British influence with the UK no longer being part of the EU block.

"There is no alternative way of advancing the British national interest," he says. In trade negotiations for example "the Americans play hard ball… you have to have the strength to hit them hard where it hurts in response. On our own, it's quite difficult for us to do that".

If people did vote to leave, he feels, a few years later they "might turn round and say why did nobody tell us what the consequences were".

I guess I was not that wrong when saying that Britain would hardly ever be happy under German or French dictate...

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Godwin's law in the first sentence, wow.

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I hope it doesn't end up the same as when American states tried to secede from the Union :ph34r:

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Godwin's law in the first sentence, wow.

Not a valid reference! United Europe under the leadership of strong Germany is Reich. Historically known like that. 2nd and 3rd Reichs are in the past, EU is becoming the 4th one - as Germany is the most influential country in it. Even Roman Pope now is a German... Not because Merkel is a Nazi, she is certainly not. Godwin analogy is not applicable, as I did not use the Reich reference as an euphemism, but in the direct sense.

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I hope it doesn't end up the same as when American states tried to secede from the Union :ph34r:

No way! Even the article says Europeans want to get rid of Britain. This means the unification experiment failed. If UK does it, then many new members like Poland and Czech would follow the suit - and I bet all what I have, Poland would walk out without Silesia and Czech would walk out without Sudettenland. History repeats itself!

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Just out of curiosity could money be an issue. Euro vs Pound ? Not sure but ones refusal to use a common currency can wreck havoc lol.

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Nay, its not money - its different geopolitical interests. There is two distinctive camps in EU - one pro-Eurasian and one pro-American. Britain leads pro-American camp, made of Poland, Baltic states, Rumania, Hungary, formally Czech. These countries are in EU not because they feel for Europe, but to seek protection from Russia; however EU saving them from Russia, put then under Germany instead, and they fear Germany not less they fear Russia... Seeking protection from Germany they follow UK in their reliance on USA - but Germany responds by building friendship ties with Russia. Situation again becomes like in the late 1930s! Poland again is squeezed between Russia and Germany - and again only UK and USA can protect it. But if UK leaves the EU, then Poland faces Germany in full beauty, France is also afraid of Germany, as part of its territory was acquired not exactly legally, but France already offered Germany to form a single state, I am unsure if this offer is still on the table though.

Germany is a very powerful industrial state with the dream technologies in use. Such state requires massive imported resources - so Germany as usually looks to the East. There is no such force in this Universe, which would ever make Germany to have another war with Russia, so they two would always negotiate the special prices for each other, as they feel for each other, being cool at battlefields in the past. But another camp has a different agenda, and Poland on behalf of USA provokes Russia for a military action (like in 1930s it was provoking USSR on behalf of UK) - Germany cannot allow this to happen, as it is still a part of the West and does not want war with USA too. Germany does not want war at all, it wants to trade and enjoy the sun, all it wants is Sudettenland and Silesia, as this is German lands. The best solution is to get rid of Poland. Together with UK!

No wonder France pumps the refugees to UK across the strait! A nice way to demonstrate the beauty of being an EU member - bwahaha!

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Mara that was very interesting :tu: I should take note of Europe's politics a little more often. So your saying there is a cold war still going on in Europe? ok a chilly war ;)

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Mara that was very interesting :tu: I should take note of Europe's politics a little more often. So your saying there is a cold war still going on in Europe? ok a chilly war ;)

To a certain degree, but this is not a cold war as it was, as there is no ideological differences anymore. It is rather a fight for the markets and resources. Europe and Russia can negotiate mutually acceptable environment, but this contradicts American interests, because in this case Eurasian resources would be not available to US - while the Latin American ones are almost taken over by China. So US naturally tries to create chaos in the different spots of Eurasia, this includes Poland's actions, Georgia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Ukrainian elections/flu etc.

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No. I'd say a "discussion" about how the US invades nations and creates flus simply to stop Russia and Europe from reaching a peace agreement and singing Kumbaya is best suited for the Conspiracy section.

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No. I'd say a "discussion" about how the US invades nations and creates flus simply to stop Russia and Europe from reaching a peace agreement and singing Kumbaya is best suited for the Conspiracy section.

BS! All what I said comes from newspapers. There was no rumours mentioned. The sequence is simple - in August Obama agrees with Poland on new updated missile defence, Russia in September simulates nuclear attack on Poland, and in November BBC says UK is going to leave EU and Europe has nothing against this sad development. Who wants a nuclear war? Germany, Italy and France are not installing any missiles as you may notice! UK is the only supporter of Poland and American policies in Europe, if it leaves, Poland would have to leave too.

Check also the maps of US bases location, and 3/4 of them would be around Russia's borders starting from Okinawa and ending in Rumania. I am not even criticising US for this, it is the way it chases its own interests! Unclear what makes you so sensitive? Care to demonstrate I tell non-existing things? Go ahead.

usbases200103.jpg

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So US naturally tries to create chaos in the different spots of Eurasia, this includes Poland's actions, Georgia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Ukrainian elections/flu etc.

If you think that's true, you are seriously delusional.

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Firstly: The Thread title is completely mis-leading. Uk is not leaving the EU, and certainly not anytime soon.

This is simply BBC editorial comment based on - well it would appear to be based on nothing really except for 1 poll.

Perhaps you could explain when germany became the "Masters of the EU", beause they most certainly are not, and are as much hidebound by the various Treaties and EU Law-making bodies as every other nation within the EU. They do not lead the EU , they are an active and influential member of the EU, but any of "their" policy proposals can be voted down if not approved of by the other member nations.

For historical accuracy: The UK, along with every other nation has the right to leave the EU. This is enshrined in the Treaty of Accesion that each member signs individually. This right has ALWAYS been in place.

So what you are saying is basically a fallacy founded on, what appears IMO, to be intense Anti-German feelings.

Public Opinion Polls are notorious for reflecting the views of the Pollster dependent on their own focus group, questions asked, and how these questions are framed. I for one, set no great store by them, nor by those pushing their own personal likes or dislikes.

You have not made a cogent case for Poland following the UK in any schism within the EU, how would it benefit Poland?

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Firstly: The Thread title is completely mis-leading. Uk is not leaving the EU, and certainly not anytime soon.

This is simply BBC editorial comment based on - well it would appear to be based on nothing really except for 1 poll.

Perhaps you could explain when germany became the "Masters of the EU", beause they most certainly are not, and are as much hidebound by the various Treaties and EU Law-making bodies as every other nation within the EU. They do not lead the EU , they are an active and influential member of the EU, but any of "their" policy proposals can be voted down if not approved of by the other member nations.

For historical accuracy: The UK, along with every other nation has the right to leave the EU. This is enshrined in the Treaty of Accesion that each member signs individually. This right has ALWAYS been in place.

So what you are saying is basically a fallacy founded on, what appears IMO, to be intense Anti-German feelings.

Public Opinion Polls are notorious for reflecting the views of the Pollster dependent on their own focus group, questions asked, and how these questions are framed. I for one, set no great store by them, nor by those pushing their own personal likes or dislikes.

You have not made a cogent case for Poland following the UK in any schism within the EU, how would it benefit Poland?

OK, OK - if you insist that BBC editorial did not say "UK leaves EU" and did not announce radio feature "Divorcing Britain", then I only can to shut up.

I also would not argue against what you say about German position in EU - yes, you are right, Germany is a basket-case war looser, and the real EU leader is certainly Luxembourg (also not? Liechtenstein then).

At my misery I admit, I forgot to study in details all EU documentation before making the claim, supporting the political farce launched by BBC, as it also openly lies about Lisbon treaty being a chance to get out of EU. I was only surprised why is it Ireland, Poland and Czech, which previously opposed Lisbon document, suddenly agreed to sign it; and thought to myself "something must have been added to this document recently, as the Czech president changed his mind 180 degrees only in a few days... This was all fault of my anti-German referents, who failed to deliver the clear documentary groundwork and I did not have time to acquire the politically correct bias before reading that BBC article.

But certainly, on a practical note it would be better if you and Ps-In used your influence and had this controversial article removed from BBC site, as well as prevent its translation on radio. After this it would be easier to convince me to ask the moderators to remove this thread! :passifier:

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If you think that's true, you are seriously delusional.

I do not like to argue with the government employees, so yes, I am delusional - and I sincerely think all that you mentioned. Otherwise why would I post it if I do not think so?

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No way! Even the article says Europeans want to get rid of Britain. This means the unification experiment failed. If UK does it, then many new members like Poland and Czech would follow the suit - and I bet all what I have, Poland would walk out without Silesia and Czech would walk out without Sudettenland. History repeats itself!

The only reason why Europeans might want Britain to leave the EU is because some of them never stop whinging about it and if you read some of our British UM member comments you can see right through the reasons why they can't accept to be on a same level par with the "continentals". Infact they're still dreaming about the good old times of the Commonwealth when "Britannia" use to rule the world.

Thats all it simply cuts down to. Luckily the people in power in the UK have more common sense.

I don't see any 007 grand scheme brewing behind the scenes scenario. I've never heard of any German claim for Silesia and Sudetenland. Keithisco is correct, anyone can leave the EU at any time they like. The only ones that would lose out of such a move would be Britain. Britain needs Europe, Europe can survive without Britain.

If it does happen, watch out for property sales in southern Spain. :)

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil
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You seriously, seriously believe the US invaded Iraq and created/hyped the flu to stop Russia from making peace with Europe?

Seriously?

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The only reason why Europeans might want Britain to leave the EU is because some of them never stop whinging about it and if you read some of our British UM member comments you can see right through the reasons why they can't accept to be on a same level par with the "continentals". Infact they're still dreaming about the good old times of the Commonwealth when "Britannia" use to rule the world.

Thats all it simply cuts down to. I don't see any 007 grand scheme brewing behind the scenes scenario. I've never heard of any German claim for Silesia and Sudetenland. Keithisco is correct, anyone can leave the EU at any time they like. The only ones that would lose out of such a move would be Britain. Britain needs Europe, Europe can survive without Britain.

If it does happen, watch out for property sales in southern Spain. :)

But I do not think that UK seriously wants to leave the EU! This article is very unusual and falls visually out of context. This is why I tried to figure out what could be a cause for it.

With the probability of 90% we have here a test strip statement, which are often used [by the governments] to test public reaction; but the very fact of such test appearing on such important site as BBC already indicates that this option is on the table. I understood from the article, that Britain does not consider the economic dangers of leaving EU at all, and this was confirmed even by the opponents of the divorce. Also the article draws a circle of "other" related problems, clearly showing that the idea is absolutely fresh and was not seriously discussed and analysed. They do not even know the opinion of Scotland!

It is possible also to connect this article with disagreements in Copenhagen, as EU clearly refuses to release the needed funds for developing countries, despite EU countries still require substantial imports of hydrocarbons - but Britain is the one of them who has its own oil... Interestingly enough the unawareness of the opinion of Scotland coexists with the fact that all British oil technically belongs precisely to Scotland... So for me this article is an interesting piece of text.

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You seriously, seriously believe the US invaded Iraq and created/hyped the flu to stop Russia from making peace with Europe?

Seriously?

You are putting your words in my mouth! I believe that US invaded Iraq to secure the oil resources, which Europe and Russia were already starting to exploit - as both Rosneft and Total Fina Elf had serious contracts with Hussein.

I believe that no swine flu threatens anyone at all, but given that I know that Ukraine goes into elections, that Yushchenko is consulted personally by US ambassador to Ukraine, that his wife is an American citizen, that he has 12% support country-wide and nearly 80% support in 5-6 Western areas of it, that these western areas were isolated from the rest of the country with excuse of flu emergency and that Obama not long before this was talking of flu emergency in US, I can make a conclusion that US is somehow connected with these elections and flu travel bans. The same time I am aware of the strategic location of Ukraine, as all gas pipelines from the East go to Europe through it (and through those western areas too!), and last year these pipes were already blocked by Yuschenko, so Europe had a freezing exercise - I can suggest some US influence in this case too, why not? It was for sure not China behind the scenes!

On the other hand, which country Poland and Czech are preparing to get ABM systems from? Zimbabwe? Also no, also USA! Whose navy entered Black Sea during Georgian war in August 2008? Also USA. Which country offered the university job to Georgian president, when he was short of being dislodged? Also USA... Which country wants to open a controversial consulate in Crimean peninsula, which Russia and Ukraine cannot determine the national belonging of? USA. Too many USA around, I would say, so why is it I am delusional as all these events affect the mutual trust between Russia and EU?

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You are putting your words in my mouth! I believe that US invaded Iraq to secure the oil resources, which Europe and Russia were already starting to exploit - as both Rosneft and Total Fina Elf had serious contracts with Hussein.

I believe that no swine flu threatens anyone at all, but given that I know that Ukraine goes into elections, that Yushchenko is consulted personally by US ambassador to Ukraine, that his wife is an American citizen, that he has 12% support country-wide and nearly 80% support in 5-6 Western areas of it, that these western areas were isolated from the rest of the country with excuse of flu emergency and that Obama not long before this was talking of flu emergency in US, I can make a conclusion that US is somehow connected with these elections and flu travel bans. The same time I am aware of the strategic location of Ukraine, as all gas pipelines from the East go to Europe through it (and through those western areas too!), and last year these pipes were already blocked by Yuschenko, so Europe had a freezing exercise - I can suggest some US influence in this case too, why not? It was for sure not China behind the scenes!

On the other hand, which country Poland and Czech are preparing to get ABM systems from? Zimbabwe? Also no, also USA! Whose navy entered Black Sea during Georgian war in August 2008? Also USA. Which country offered the university job to Georgian president, when he was short of being dislodged? Also USA... Which country wants to open a controversial consulate in Crimean peninsula, which Russia and Ukraine cannot determine the national belonging of? USA. Too many USA around, I would say, so why is it I am delusional as all these events affect the mutual trust between Russia and EU?

I can see the USA (Old Administration, and "Hangers-on") wanting to get in the way of EU - Russia trading, 2 huge economic zones that between them could control many Industrial Markets. But the qusetion I would always ask is what is the Quid pro Quo for the USA in such a venture?

The USA need not be involved in such chicanery, and China / India Asia in general will become the real powerhouses in the future. Just IMO. I would also say "why not"? Their markets are opening to everyone, the prospect of re-aligning trade should not be a "Boogeyman" to anyone.

Oil is yesterdays "energy driver". For those nations investing in todays technology it holds no fear if the Oil - Tap is turned off. The USA (who we are told have the "Greatest Engineers in the world") just needs to get on - board, and if there is a cost in the short - term, so what? Think "Long - Term".

Everybody thinks of "5Year Plans" as a Soviet / Chinese invention, in fact it is not - in the west we ALL have exactly the same thing with new governments being elected every 4 - 5 years, changing direction at every time. New plans to accommodate their 4-5 yrs tenure.

Edited by keithisco
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In any case, if somebody thinks that the EU will start WWIII upon Britain's exit they could not be more wrong. On the day Britain leaves you will see the French waving goodbye with their hankies, on the second day thy will demand that all British living in Calais go apply for a foreigners residence permit and on the third there will be tougher border controls with Britain. That will be the end of the story.

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No way! Even the article says Europeans want to get rid of Britain. This means the unification experiment failed. If UK does it, then many new members like Poland and Czech would follow the suit - and I bet all what I have, Poland would walk out without Silesia and Czech would walk out without Sudettenland. History repeats itself!

which would bring about another war that would devistate the world once more except this time, I would expect to see super powers fall and the human race almost kill them selves with nuclear weapons.

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