"Twilight" Sequel Sets New Opening-Day Record

[Rosewin]

Books.

Not movie.

I don't give a damn about the movie.

Read the books, then return with your argument.

I am and your feminist argument has already been addressed adequately I would say. Can we move on?

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[Stormcrow]

The books are really bad about that emphasis. Wish I had one with me...there is a quote in there from Bella who is HAPPY that Edward controls the physical relationship because she is a mere girl and therefore has no control.

GAH.

Nibs

You wouldn't catch me dead with a copy, but I do like this place: http://harshlightofreality.blogspot.com/ It has some rather interesting quotes!

[Rosewin]

You wouldn't catch me dead with a copy, but I do like this place: http://harshlightofreality.blogspot.com/ It has some rather interesting quotes!

Did you not once say you never read the books or started or some such and it was rubbish so never read another one beyond the first? I could be wrong but if not why even say...

Read the books, then return with your argument.

Oh, well. *shrugs* I am on chapter five now. I really enjoy what I read so far and can relate to lots of it.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[+HerNibs]

You wouldn't catch me dead with a copy, but I do like this place: http://harshlightofreality.blogspot.com/ It has some rather interesting quotes!

Excellent page. Thanks!

Nibs

[Stormcrow]

What I said was I read enough of it to realize I didn't want to read anymore. That's generally about two chapters for me. After that, I was convinced it was ridiculous because of sparkling vampires and bad grammar. Then a friend of mine read it, and told me just about everything line for line. That was pretty much enough to p*** me off on the whole "abuse" bit. Afterward, I did a bit of looking into it myself, to see what others gathered on the subject, and if it was just her that picked up on it. And it certainly was not. In that endeavor, I found http://harshlightofreality.blogspot.com/, which was kind enough to provide humorous (and not so humorous) quotes that supported various arguments against Twilight. I originally had a much better page, with literal counts each time Edward threatened, insulted, or otherwise demeaned Bella, but have since lost that one.

No, I haven't read the entire book, but after what I've observed so far through quotes and collections made by others, I cannot even begin to fathom reading anymore of it. I feel violated having just read two chapters, and it does take quite a lot to violate me as a reader.

[+HerNibs]

Twilight and Domestic Abuse

Abusers use the following tactics to remain in control of their victims:

1.Dominance. Abusive individuals (for example, Edward Cullen) need to exert control over their partners. By say, making their decisions for them (Bella, please just do this my way, just this once. Or, the memory tampering in chapter 17 of Twilight. Or dragging her to the prom in the epilogue), and expecting to obey without question (the whole of chapter 18 when Bella attempts to argue with Edward). Further example of this can be found in the fact that Edward refuses to let Bella drive, and their carefully constructed rules on what physical conduct is acceptable and unacceptable, rules which often come to Bellas detriment.

2.Humiliation. An abuser will do whatever they can to make you feel bad about yourself, or defective in some way (i.e. Edwards conversations with Bella through much of Twilight revolving around the fact that she is an idiot for being with him, she cant survive without him, etc.) The idea is that you are the crazy one, and if you believe youre worthless and cant find someone else, you wont ever leave. Bella makes comments in Twilight and early on in New Moon to the effect of I am too plain and boring for Edward, I dont deserve him. This is the product of naturally low self-esteem, and, in realistic characters, the fact that her lover calls her an idiot whenever he can.

3.Isolation. The abuser needs their victim to be dependent on them, and will often try to do this by cutting you off from the outside world. Edward seems to perpetuate this less on his own, as Bella readily throws herself into it. She has no actual friends in the series beyond Edward and his sister, Alice. Her only social activity is working at the local sports store, if you can call that social. She is willing to isolate herself from her parents as well, if it would mean getting to spend eternity with her abuser. You could argue that Edward is manipulating her into this (I mean, really, theres nothing bad about being a vampire).

4.Threats. Abusers will threaten violence on their victims in order to exert further control. In the Twilight series, this is a little more subtle and insidious. Edward warns Bella that he could hurt her, that he could lose control at any moment. In chapter 8 of Twilight, he admits to having murderous thoughts regarding the ruffians Bella was accosted by, to further illustrate how dangerous he is. Even more shocking, he tells Bella later that he wanted to kill her when they first met. Every chance he gets, he warns her that he could murder her at a moments notice. Worse, his attempts at saving her often end in physical harm coming to her anyway, such as the James conflict and Bellas birthday party in New Moon. Bella learns to make excuses and quick stories for the bruises, cuts, and broken bones she sustains, in a rather unsettling mirror of an abuse victims behavior. Thats not to mention Edwards vague suicidal threats, should anything happen to Bella.

5.Intimidation. Abusers will often try to scare their victims into submission. Edward in chapter 13 of Twilight, jumping around, smashing trees, showing off how fast and strong he is, in an attempt to make Bella frightened of him. Do I really need to say more?

6.Denial and blame. Abusers are very good at making their own excuses for their actions, and shifting the blame. Again, this is a little more subtle in the Twilight series. Edward blames his behavior on being a vampire, on having to resist human blood, and on having buried his humanity for so long. In a supernatural setting, its hard to say that these excuses are not justified, but they are still excuses. Bella, again, readily assumes the blame for anything bad that happens to her as a result of Edwards actions. Edward will occasionally make the token effort to convince her this isnt the case, but there are a few times where she shoulders the blame unhindered. Edward has also told Bella that if she gets hurt, hes going to blame it all on her. He also seems to think that if she kisses him too hard and he eats her, thats going to be her fault as well.

The entire article is great.

Abusers will also exhibit signs of remorse after periods of abuse, entering the honeymoon phase of the cycle. They will make it up to the abused in whatever way they can, in an attempt to keep the victim with them. They may say Im sorry I hurt you, when what they mean is Im sorry I hurt you, because I might get caught. This creates further conflict in a victim who would otherwise leave the relationshipwhen hes not making me feel like garbage, hes very sweet. Edward writes songs for Bella, and offers to buy her expensive gifts. Then he refuses to let her drive and warns of the threat of violence if she open-mouth kisses him.

Bella, as well, exhibits signs of someone who is abused. She accepts the blame readily when terrible things happen, especially when it was through no fault of her own. She suffers mysterious injuries, and will have elaborate tales for how she sustained them (I fell down the stairs and into a window). She has incredibly low self-esteem, and considers herself lucky to be with Edward. She is always ready with an excuse when Edward begins to treat her coldly, hurts her, or otherwise emotionally abuses her.

Nibs

Nother great link -

Edwad and Bella are in an abusive relationship.

Edited December 16, 2009 by HerNibs

[Rosewin]

What I said was I read enough of it to realize I didn't want to read anymore. That's generally about two chapters for me. After that, I was convinced it was ridiculous because of sparkling vampires and bad grammar. Then a friend of mine read it, and told me just about everything line for line. That was pretty much enough to p*** me off on the whole "abuse" bit. Afterward, I did a bit of looking into it myself, to see what others gathered on the subject, and if it was just her that picked up on it. And it certainly was not. In that endeavor, I found http://harshlightofreality.blogspot.com/, which was kind enough to provide humorous (and not so humorous) quotes that supported various arguments against Twilight. I originally had a much better page, with literal counts each time Edward threatened, insulted, or otherwise demeaned Bella, but have since lost that one.

No, I haven't read the entire book, but after what I've observed so far through quotes and collections made by others, I cannot even begin to fathom reading anymore of it. I feel violated having just read two chapters, and it does take quite a lot to violate me as a reader.

EK that is cool I just questioned the irony of you asking me such. I have started to read them finally. Well your feminist view, which it can certainly be categorized as, is your perfect right to have. They form your opinions on the book and I am going to disagree with them but you are not wrong at all to have your opinions. My opinions are also that, not facts.

Sorry for going off track before Saru stepped in, making on comments on the haters and their lives, instead of just commenting on the hate. I do feel terrible for it and miss your writing on the RP thread. Anyways. I just simply disagree, cannot help it, I understand your concerns, I think they are overblown, that is all, really, when it comes to that.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[Corp]

*snip*

http://www.cinematical.com/2008/08/11/film-clips-is-twilight-anti-feminist/

Ah, an actual argument about the series. I'll address this if I may.

1) I have no problem with this. If you really love someone you want to spent you're whole life with them. So while Bella's drive to become a vampire is a bit odd, in that she seems more worried about growing old than she is about losing Edward. I can see the religion angle as well...though again idolizing a way of life involving offing people and drinking blood is a bit odd again. However over all the idea that Bella's wish to be a vampire is anti-femisist doesn't hold much water.

2) This I disagree with. Bella has no problem with Edward following her around, getting her to lie to her friends and family, preventing her from seeing anyone without his permission, and making decisions about her life against her wishes. This is controling. Yes Bella chases Edward as well but it's very clear that it's Edward who's calling the shots. In addition Bella seems to be always fainting and being carried around by everyone. When Edward is around she seems unable to think, even being unable to drive. When Edward leaves it's like she's going through drug withdrawls, spending months as a zombie. Yes Bella has poor self-esteem but she's also clearly a weak person.

3) I don't believe abortion is the issue for the fourth book. Rather there's plenty of other stuff that's anti-feminist. Such as when they first have sex Bella blacks out and wakes up covered in bruses. Like during sex she got smacked around by Edward. But hey this is ok, round two! I also don't think the right to motherhood ever entered the mind of most critics of the fourth book. They just couldn't get past that the baby broke Bella's spine! Serious...what's up with that?

4) I agree that this is a poor point, which I have heard. I believe Bella is 18 when she gets pregnant, and she had plenty of support so I have no problem at all that she got pregnant. But then like the whole baby/abortion thing I don't think many critics saw teen pregnancy was their biggest issue. Rather they were likely drawn to that fact that Edward gives Bella a C-section...with his teeth! He literally chews through her uterus to get the baby. This is all kinds of messed up. It's like something in a horror novel, not a book targeted at teens. Then there's the issue of wolfboy falling in love with the baby. No teen pregnancy is the least of the problems in the fourth book...though I'm looking forward to the movie

Edited December 16, 2009 by Corp

[Stormcrow]

Why am I still being called a feminist? I don't like domestic violence in any situation. If this were Bella abusing Edward, I would still say the same things. Would I still be considered a feminist then? :/ I am not arguing about feminism (I will in some cases, such as Bella's role as a woman as a whole), but my major concern here is the issue with violence. As I've stated time and time again, I am too familiar with it, and to see it being portrayed as something lovely like this, hopefully you'll eventually come to understand why I don't appreciate it.

[Rosewin]

Why am I still being called a feminist? I don't like domestic violence in any situation. If this were Bella abusing Edward, I would still say the same things. Would I still be considered a feminist then? :/ I am not arguing about feminism (I will in some cases, such as Bella's role as a woman as a whole), but my major concern here is the issue with violence. As I've stated time and time again, I am too familiar with it, and to see it being portrayed as something lovely like this, hopefully you'll eventually come to understand why I don't appreciate it.

I appreciate why you do not like it but it does not apply to everyone.

I also did not call you a feminist but characterized your view as such. When most of your complaints, previous ones, beyond domestic violence, are the same ones they have, word per word. It looks like a script to me. Do not be patronizing now. This is nit-picking, you are not a feminist if you do not want to be labeled one, your views on the other hand would be categorized as such by far more than me. That is what is being discussed, your views, quit acting like it is about you, it clearly isn't.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[+HerNibs]

Ah, an actual argument about the series. I'll address this if I may.

3) I don't believe abortion is the issue for the fourth book. Rather there's plenty of other stuff that's anti-feminist. Such as when they first have sex Bella blacks out and wakes up covered in bruses. Like during sex she got smacked around by Edward. But hey this is ok, round two! I also don't think the right to motherhood ever entered the mind of most critics of the fourth book. They just couldn't get past that the baby broke Bella's spine! Serious...what's up with that?

4) I agree that this is a poor point, which I have heard. I believe Bella is 18 when she gets pregnant, and she had plenty of support so I have no problem at all that she got pregnant. But then like the whole baby/abortion thing I don't think many critics saw teen pregnancy was their biggest issue. Rather they were likely drawn to that fact that Edward gives Bella a C-section...with his teeth! He literally chews through her uterus to get the baby. This is all kinds of messed up. It's like something in a horror novel, not a book targeted at teens. Then there's the issue of wolfboy falling in love with the baby. No teen pregnancy is the least of the problems in the fourth book...though I'm looking forward to the movie

My two cents - when Eddie realizes that the baby is killing Bella, HE decides that she shouldn't go on with the birth (regardless of how she feels) and actually decides that if she wants a baby THAT bad, he will get Jacob to knock her up.

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

Why am I still being called a feminist? I don't like domestic violence in any situation. If this were Bella abusing Edward, I would still say the same things. Would I still be considered a feminist then? :/ I am not arguing about feminism (I will in some cases, such as Bella's role as a woman as a whole), but my major concern here is the issue with violence. As I've stated time and time again, I am too familiar with it, and to see it being portrayed as something lovely like this, hopefully you'll eventually come to understand why I don't appreciate it.

I'll go out on a limb and guess it is because of the following -

You don't find abuse/control romantic.

You don't think women should be subservient.

You don't think a woman has a role that keeps them in a "lesser" position than an man and at home.

You don't think stalking is a healthy way to say "I love you."

You do feel that a healthy relationship involves equality between the partners.

You don't feel that a healthy goal is to find a man like Eddie-kins.

Oh, and you don't appreciate the beauty in the relationship between Bella and Edward.

Nibs

[Rosewin]

Ah, an actual argument about the series. I'll address this if I may.

1) I have no problem with this. If you really love someone you want to spent you're whole life with them. So while Bella's drive to become a vampire is a bit odd, in that she seems more worried about growing old than she is about losing Edward. I can see the religion angle as well...though again idolizing a way of life involving offing people and drinking blood is a bit odd again. However over all the idea that Bella's wish to be a vampire is anti-femisist doesn't hold much water.

2) This I disagree with. Bella has no problem with Edward following her around, getting her to lie to her friends and family, preventing her from seeing anyone without his permission, and making decisions about her life against her wishes. This is controling. Yes Bella chases Edward as well but it's very clear that it's Edward who's calling the shots. In addition Bella seems to be always fainting and being carried around by everyone. When Edward is around she seems unable to think, even being unable to drive. When Edward leaves it's like she's going through drug withdrawls, spending months as a zombie. Yes Bella has poor self-esteem but she's also clearly a weak person.

3) I don't believe abortion is the issue for the fourth book. Rather there's plenty of other stuff that's anti-feminist. Such as when they first have sex Bella blacks out and wakes up covered in bruses. Like during sex she got smacked around by Edward. But hey this is ok, round two! I also don't think the right to motherhood ever entered the mind of most critics of the fourth book. They just couldn't get past that the baby broke Bella's spine! Serious...what's up with that?

4) I agree that this is a poor point, which I have heard. I believe Bella is 18 when she gets pregnant, and she had plenty of support so I have no problem at all that she got pregnant. But then like the whole baby/abortion thing I don't think many critics saw teen pregnancy was their biggest issue. Rather they were likely drawn to that fact that Edward gives Bella a C-section...with his teeth! He literally chews through her uterus to get the baby. This is all kinds of messed up. It's like something in a horror novel, not a book targeted at teens. Then there's the issue of wolfboy falling in love with the baby. No teen pregnancy is the least of the problems in the fourth book...though I'm looking forward to the movie

1) I am going to mostly agree with your first point. It is also odd but not so strange in that many do wish to live forever and other such concepts.

2) I am going to have to complete the series to fully comment but clearly all the behavior is not healthy and should not be emulated. From what I have seen Bella is strong and selfish, she wants her way and gets it, from the earliest chapters I have read, and from the movies, so going to say she is strong so far, it seems so. I admire getting what you want even if some will say that is not healthy either...

3) There has been much complaining on the abortion thing but I also doubt its the only issue that can be described as being anti-feminist. From the looks, from all that I have heard of it, I most likely will not enjoy the last book...I hope I am wrong.

4) Oh, if someone wants to complain about the c-section with teeth scene being targeted at teens, meh. I also seriously doubt they make the fourth book into a movie lol but it would be...not sparkles.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[+HerNibs]

Why am I still being called a feminist? I don't like domestic violence in any situation. If this were Bella abusing Edward, I would still say the same things. Would I still be considered a feminist then? :/ I am not arguing about feminism (I will in some cases, such as Bella's role as a woman as a whole), but my major concern here is the issue with violence. As I've stated time and time again, I am too familiar with it, and to see it being portrayed as something lovely like this, hopefully you'll eventually come to understand why I don't appreciate it.

Meh, I'm not sure why the word feminist is being used towards us as an insult.

Source

Main Entry: fem·i·nism

Pronunciation: \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\

Function: noun

Date: 1895

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

— fem·i·nist \-nist\ noun or adjective

— fem·i·nis·tic \ˌfe-mə-ˈnis-tik\ adjective

Quickie Wiki Info

The feminist movement (also known as the Women's Movement, Women's Liberation, or simply, Women's Lib) is a series of campaigns on issues such as reproductive rights (sometimes including abortion), domestic violence, maternity leave, equal pay, voting rights, sexual harassment, and sexual violence. The goals of the movement vary from country to country, e.g. opposition to female genital cutting in Sudan, or to the glass ceiling in Western countries.

Nibs

[Corp]

My two cents - when Eddie realizes that the baby is killing Bella, HE decides that she shouldn't go on with the birth (regardless of how she feels) and actually decides that if she wants a baby THAT bad, he will get Jacob to knock her up.

Nibs

Ah yes, forgot that part. Also for those interested in the series but don't want to buy and read the books, I've been getting my info from this site. Gives summaries and quotes from each chapter.

http://vampychronicles.wordpress.com/

[Rosewin]

Anyways, who do you guys think, out of the cast of the movie, has the most potential with a film career?

[+HerNibs]

I forgot how horrible this was - Midnight Sun

Nibs

[Corp]

From what I hear the guy who played Jacob did a good job. Know the whole Native angle was the most interesting part of the first film.

[+HerNibs]

From what I hear the guy who played Jacob did a good job. Know the whole Native angle was the most interesting part of the first film.

He was ok. He and Pattinson actually did ok. The characters suck. Only so much an actor can do with such a flat character.

I sill like the dad, Charlie.

Nibs

[Rosewin]

Charlie's portrayal was way cool.

From what I hear the guy who played Jacob did a good job. Know the whole Native angle was the most interesting part of the first film.

I have a feeling he might go far. I think Anna Kendrick, who played Jessica, might have the most talent. She has already been a Golden Globe and Tony Award nominee. She has been nominated for all kinds of awards as well for her performance in Up In The Air. I have yet to actually see any of her performances, just going off the buzz, but supposedly her performance range in Twilight was seriously downgraded for the role.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rosewin

[Guest Lottie]

*Note- Several posts have been removed due to argumentative behaviour. Back on topic. Thanks.

[Rosewin]

Now for something vastly more entertaining than the last four posts: The Twihard Attack Directory. Enjoy.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Rosewin

[+HerNibs]

Bad Lessons Girls Learn from Twilight

1.If a boy is aloof, stand-offish, ignores you or is just plain rude, it is because he is secretly in love with you — and you are the point of his existence.

2.Secrets are good — especially life-threatening ones.

3.It’s OK for a potential romantic interest to be dimwitted, violent and vengeful — as long as he has great abs.

4.If a boy tells you to stay away from him because he is dangerous and may even kill you, he must be the love of your life. You should stay with him since he will keep you safe forever.

5.If a boy leaves you, especially suddenly (while telling you he will never see you again), it is because he loves you so much he will suffer just to keep you safe.

6.When a boy leaves you, going into shock, losing all your friends and enduring night terrors are completely acceptable occurrences — as long as you keep your grades up.

7.It is extremely romantic to put yourself in dangerous situations in order to see your ex-boyfriend again. It’s even more romantic to remember the sound of his voice when he yelled at you.

8.Boys who leave you always come back.

9.Because they come back, you should hold out, waiting for them for months, even when completely acceptable and less-abusive alternative males present themselves.

10.Even though you have no intention of dating an alternative male who expresses interest in you, it is fine to string the young man along for months. Also, you should use him to fix things for you. Maybe he’ll even buy you something.

11.You should use said male to fix things because girls are incapable of anything mechanical or technical.

12.Lying to your parents is fine. Lying to your parents while you run away to save your suicidal boyfriend is an extremely good idea that shows your strength and maturity. Also, it is what you must do.

13.Car theft in the service of love is acceptable.

14.If the boy you are in love with causes you (even indirectly) to be so badly beaten you end up in the hospital, you should tell the doctors and your family that you “fell down the steps” because you are such a silly, clumsy girl. That false explanation always works well for abused women.

15.Men can be changed for the better if you sacrifice everything you are and devote yourself to their need for change.

16.Young women should make no effort to improve their social skills or emotional state. Instead, they should seek out potential mates that share their morose deficiencies and emotional illnesses.

17.Girls shouldn’t always read a book series just because everyone else has.

18.When writing a book series, it’s acceptable to lift seminal source material and bastardize it with tired, overwrought teenage angst.

19.When making or watching a major feature film, you should gleefully embrace the 20 minutes of plot it provides in between extended segments of vacant-eyed silence and self-indulgent, moaning banter.

20.Vampires — once among the great villains of literature and motion pictures — are no longer scary. In fact, they’re every bit as whiny, self-absorbed and impotent as any human being.

Nibs

[drakonwick]

I agree that Twitlight is a fad. Fads come and go as this one will.

What alarms me with Twilight is that if one young woman is harmed then that is one too many. The books and the movies glorify abusive, obsessive behavior as what a woman should really want in the "perfect man". Then having halfwit mothers emphasise to girls that they should look for their own Edward. I've heard it first hand with my idiot sister and other women at the movies and book stores. I don't need to wait to see a psychologists report or survey to know that even HINTING at this is a dangerous thing.

I also agree that it takes more than one fad or thing to shape a young person into the individual they will become in the future. But one thing can change that young person's outlook drastically. Again, all it takes is one young woman to think that "it's ok that he won't let me speak to my family. It's because he loves me sooooo much he can't share me."

In the last book, Edward and Bella have sex. She passes out. In the morning the room/bed is destroyed and Bella has bruises all over her. Edward is so very sorry. Very very sorry but she drove him SO mad (sexually) that he tore the pillows apart with his teeth. He feels bad about her bruises but he PASSES IT OFF AS HER FAULT BECAUSE SHE INSISTED THEY HAVE SEX AND HE TOLD HER THAT HE WOULD HURT HER.

WTF? It's her fault that he hurt her?

Having just one young woman find this romantic makes the series dangerous.

Now, am I out with a picket sign? No, because to a degree I agree with you about it not being a HUGE social impact for all time. But I do worry about that one girl who finds abuse, control and deception to be "romantic".

I have been an abused woman and work wih abused women, it's freaking amazing what can be rationalized as ok.

Regarding this part of your post. I again agree with your example, this situation is teaching kids that this situation is ok but why add to it? Why have a wildly popular cultural fad reinforce the idea that "as long as he says he loves me, it's ok".

I said it earlier in the thread, parents need to know their kids and need to determine the ability of their kid (daughter or son) to understand that this isn't ok.

No, you can't monitor your kids 24/7 but if you take time and talk to them you can give them the reasoning skills to know that if it hurts you, it's bad.

So yes, I've read the books and seen the movies, guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite with this but I damn sure wouldn't allow some of these VERY young girls to read or see Twilight and I would make darn sure that any girl in my care knows that it's NOT an example of a healthy relationship.

Heck, I've seen the Cell and Silence of the Lambs but I don't think either of them are apporpriate for immature people.

Nibs

Thank you for such a nice clarifying response Nibs!

I agree, the movies/books do promote abusive relationships and portray women as less than significant. Personally I have only browsed through chapters in the books, only read enough to realize they would not hold my interest. My only true emphasis is that things like this have been around for generations, well before any book or movie could portray such atrocities. Then books and movies come along and show these relationship issues in detail that for which in my opinion, is more along the lines of teaching life lessons. But then you get this new generation of teens that take these matters way to seriously.

The main problem is proper parenting has become less of a real importance in a childs life, they let them grow up and learn what they will out of these less than appropriate books and movies, and even more that the parents are letting children read and watch these books and movies in the first place. Without proper parenting to set guidelines on such matters children could take on a fantasy life rather easily.

Then again older children should know better on what should be accepted as whats good and whats bad. This new generation of children like to be different and use these fantasy books and movies as a scapegoat to escape reality. So again, I will personally say that it is not necessarily the writers and directors faults, as they are only producing what sells.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Moro Bumbleroot

[Guest Lottie]

OK more posts have now been removed, with this rule in mind:

2f. Private content: Do not post the content of private messages, e-mails or the personal contact details of other members.

...And insults and argumentative behaviour again.

There have been at least two staff requests to tone it down. I am not going to name names, you know who you are. Keep your disputes off the forum.

Anymore of this nonsense will result in official warnings. You have been warned.

Back on topic.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Lottie