A dialogue on FREEWILL

[Alchera]

Just like our emotions are programmed into us, so are choices. It will always seem to us that we have the choice, even if we really don't.

[longlongago]

But what if we actually do have free will..... what do we do with the knowledge that we really ARE responsible for our own actions ? What then ?

NF

Freedom lies in getting rid of this knowledge .

What else could it be other than ' Social Indoctrination ' .

Can you picture a group that can sustain itself with a belief to the contrary ?

[Black Hound]

Good info but we do delude ourselves if we believe in "free will". Always have, always will. Just give the "control freaks" or "AR" something to cling on to. God, I see so many in my groups it is sickening.

[Goesintothehole]

Freedom lies in getting rid of this knowledge .

What else could it be other than ' Social Indoctrination ' .

Can you picture a group that can sustain itself with a belief to the contrary ?

Ah, but the statement was intended to chagrin the determinists. Not only do I see groups surviving through freewill, but I see groups without freewill fall and still more: also refuse to entertain the possibility of one without free will thriving.

If that makes me un-impartial, then all will have to deal with it.

It's my free will to determine so.

Good info but we do delude ourselves if we believe in "free will". Always have, always will. Just give the "control freaks" or "AR" something to cling on to. God, I see so many in my groups it is sickening.

One could ask what is it about the belief in free will that sickens you. For me, I find it liberating that no one or no thing does 'control' me... Least of all conditioning.

F

[=Jak=]

When you goes in freewill, feel everything in control.. it lifts yyour ego.. then every1 feels ego.. which lacks will

[Goesintothehole]

How the lecture should have gone....

'' do you think the chemistry of the brain controls what people do .''

'' No, of course not. ''

'' What ? But how can we blame people for their actions . ''

'' because people have FREEWILL; the sentient part of their soul is what decides their actions. ''

'' are you saying that FREEWILL is not part of the brain . ''

'' It isn't directly, no... Freewill is no more a part of the brain than topiary is part of the African rain forest; you do know that thought is the one function of the brain that cannot be explained by science or religion, don't you? ''

'' so you're saying that the FREEWILL part of the brain is exempt from the natural laws of physics ? ''

'' Yes, obviously it is, otherwise we would be able to create sentient life from a pile of fresh meat and be gods ourselves . ''

'' do you think the FREEWILL part of the brain is attached or does it just float nearby ? ''

'' I'm guessing you have no comprehension of the gulf between matter and thought ! ''

F

[Render]

How the lecture should have gone....

'' do you think the chemistry of the brain controls what people do .''

'' No, of course not. ''

'' What ? But how can we blame people for their actions . ''

'' because people have FREEWILL; the sentient part of their soul is what decides their actions. ''

Yeah, but then again. Adding chemicals to your system, to in turn, release more or less from the ones you naturally have makes you behave completely different.

Drug users can concur they do not stay the same person.

Or idiot savants, that become this way because of getting hit on the head. The chemical balance is altered and suddenly they're completely different.

Where does "free" will come in then?

'' are you saying that FREEWILL is not part of the brain . ''

'' It isn't directly, no... Freewill is no more a part of the brain than topiary is part of the African rain forest; you do know that thought is the one function of the brain that cannot be explained by science or religion, don't you? ''

'' so you're saying that the FREEWILL part of the brain is exempt from the natural laws of physics ? ''

'' Yes, obviously it is, otherwise we would be able to create sentient life from a pile of fresh meat and be gods ourselves . ''

There's already a lot of scientific research into this.

Programs are being written to maybe give the illusion of voluntary actions. A freewill imitation. But who is then to say this isn't the "freewill" everybody speaks of. Just a program. A survive algorithm.

'' do you think the FREEWILL part of the brain is attached or does it just float nearby ? ''

'' I'm guessing you have no comprehension of the gulf between matter and thought ! ''

F

Hmmm. Ever had a moment where everything just came together? A giant puzzle if you will.

Like when you heard about a word the previous day and you looked it up...and suddenly it pops up as the explanation in a conversation you had the next day. And you say to yourself "huh, what a coincidence...i just looked that up yesterday".

Maybe you thought you wanted to look it up because you thought it interested you. Yet the force behind it was just directing you to the future conversation.

No freewill at all..just the course of things laid down in front of you. You just had to walk the path and think you were in control of it.

Btw, the cultural difference in this topic should also be considered.

For example in japan it is common to believe a houserobot or something like Aibo has a conciousness. Ppl feel it reacts to them (=free will?). It is in certain sence "alive".

Edited December 27, 2009 by Triade

[Gosintothehole]

Yeah, but then again. Adding chemicals to your system, to in turn, release more or less from the ones you naturally have makes you behave completely different.

Drug users can concur they do not stay the same person.

Or idiot savants, that become this way because of getting hit on the head. The chemical balance is altered and suddenly they're completely different.

Where does "free" will come in then?

Since when does being a different person remove the essence of free will ? Wartime amputees have a fundamental change to their physical selves and subsequently their entire lifestyles but still retain the free will of choice.. a choice to curl up and mope over their disability or deal with what life has dealt them.

I'm sure drug users would tell you that they have chosen to use mind altering substances in the first instance and then use the addiction to shift blame from themselves to the drugs in order to relinquish responsibility for their criminal actions in maintaining their next 'fix'

There's already a lot of scientific research into this.

Programs are being written to maybe give the illusion of voluntary actions. A freewill imitation. But who is then to say this isn't the "freewill" everybody speaks of. Just a program. A survive algorithm.

I wouls say that the definition of life and evolution would say that fabricated 'freewill' programs are not true freewill at all.

Hmmm. Ever had a moment where everything just came together? A giant puzzle if you will.

Like when you heard about a word the previous day and you looked it up...and suddenly it pops up as the explanation in a conversation you had the next day. And you say to yourself "huh, what a coincidence...i just looked that up yesterday".

Maybe you thought you wanted to look it up because you thought it interested you. Yet the force behind it was just directing you to the future conversation.

No freewill at all..just the course of things laid down in front of you. You just had to walk the path and think you were in control of it.

Yes, had this many times... i should think most people have. It's caused by having (in this case) the word in the forefront of your mind because you just looked it up. It was already there in your mind when you heard it the following day thus triggering recollection... That's integrated into the definition of coincidence. It did not ocurr the following day because you heard it the day before but quite the opposite. The reason you hear unknown and unexplained new words some days is because you didn't look them up in the days before you heard them... It's called learning..

G

[Gosintothehole]

Yeah, but then again. Adding chemicals to your system, to in turn, release more or less from the ones you naturally have makes you behave completely different.

Drug users can concur they do not stay the same person.

Or idiot savants, that become this way because of getting hit on the head. The chemical balance is altered and suddenly they're completely different.

Where does "free" will come in then?

Since when does being a different person remove the essence of free will ? Don't people take drugs because they know they will have a different experience; act differently ? Isn't that a choice ?

Wartime amputees have a fundamental change to their physical selves and subsequently their entire lifestyles but still retain the free will of choice.. a choice to curl up and mope over their disability or deal with what life has dealt them.

I'm sure drug users would tell you that they have chosen to use mind altering substances in the first instance and then use the addiction to shift blame from themselves to the drugs in order to relinquish responsibility for their criminal actions in maintaining their next 'fix'

There's already a lot of scientific research into this.

Programs are being written to maybe give the illusion of voluntary actions. A freewill imitation. But who is then to say this isn't the "freewill" everybody speaks of. Just a program. A survive algorithm.

I wouls say that the definition of life and evolution would say that fabricated 'freewill' programs are not true freewill at all.

Hmmm. Ever had a moment where everything just came together? A giant puzzle if you will.

Like when you heard about a word the previous day and you looked it up...and suddenly it pops up as the explanation in a conversation you had the next day. And you say to yourself "huh, what a coincidence...i just looked that up yesterday".

Maybe you thought you wanted to look it up because you thought it interested you. Yet the force behind it was just directing you to the future conversation.

No freewill at all..just the course of things laid down in front of you. You just had to walk the path and think you were in control of it.

Yes, had this many times... i should think most people have. It's caused by having (in this case) the word in the forefront of your mind because you just looked it up. It was already there in your mind when you heard it the following day thus triggering recollection... That's integrated into the definition of coincidence. It did not ocurr the following day because you heard it the day before but quite the opposite. The reason you hear unknown and unexplained new words some days is because you didn't look them up in the days before you heard them... It's called learning..

G

[Mr Walker]

I mostly use naturalism for explaination of free will. Everything we do is programmed into us biologically. But that's not a bad thing, as it will always feel like you have the choice anyway.

This is untrue and also dangerous in its untruth.

Human sapience is at a level where it has free will ie it can freely make choices. Humans as organic hosts of that sapience also possess free choice, ie we can choose using our mind any otion we can imagine (and tha tis virtually limitless) and then act on that choice.

So humans are NOT dependent on either organic or environmental conditioning, or programming.

Our spaience liberates us from the imperialism of both those forces, both internal and external.

If i kill i do so by choice. No one nothing and no genetic/ environmental programming can compell me to. In fact no one and nothing can compell a human whose free will is intact to do anything.

Free will can only be removed by drugs etc, which remove the ability for clear thought, or by hypnotism and physical programming of a mind, so it is not actually thinking with true human capacity at all.

Every thing we do is a choice. further more it is OUR choice. It is our responsibiity to see that those choices are as informed as possible.

If i love, i do so as an exercise of free will and free choice Nothing in my nature or environment can override the ability of my mind to decide, and my body to respond to my minds decisions. So humans ARE responsible for every choice they make. They know what is good/evil, constructive /destructive, and they have no true excuses when they choose evil or destructive outcomes.

Once one is educated, and self aware of the forces which tend to programme our actions, our mind can challenge and modify each and every one of them. That is the beauty, the wonder, and the challenge of being human.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Mr Walker

[longlongago]

Wartime amputees have a fundamental change to their physical selves and subsequently their entire lifestyles but still retain the free will of choice.. a choice to curl up and mope over their disability or deal with what life has dealt them.

'' .. but still retain the free will of choice .. ''

Are you sure ?

All human activity can be explained in terms of ' Stimulus and Response ' .

A certain stimuli can make them deal with the situation in a so called ' positive '

manner , while another set of circumstances can let them curl up and mope over .

What difference does it make anyway ! If one views the situation from a cosmic point of view .

Yes , to their personal life and those around them , it may mean a lot , and it would be attributed to ' because ... '

We don't stop to consider the possibility of freewill in the life of ants , do we !

Quoting 'GhostWhisper' from another topic -

'' One of our chief problems is our tendency to deny reality and instead think the universe is anthropocentric. ''

[Mr Walker]

'' .. but still retain the free will of choice .. ''

Are you sure ?

All human activity can be explained in terms of ' Stimulus and Response ' .

A certain stimuli can make them deal with the situation in a so called ' positive '

manner , while another set of circumstances can let them curl up and mope over .

What difference does it make anyway ! If one views the situation from a cosmic point of view .

Yes , to their personal life and those around them , it may mean a lot , and it would be attributed to ' because ... '

We don't stop to consider the possibility of freewill in the life of ants , do we !

Quoting 'GhostWhisper' from another topic -

'' One of our chief problems is our tendency to deny reality and instead think the universe is anthropocentric. ''

What a sad viewpoint (as well as being, in my opinion, completely at odds with observable reality) Stimuli cant "make " a self aware person do anything, or chose anything.

That choice is a consequence of our sapience and not the stimuli, or thee environment or any internal genetic programming. We can be conditioned to make certain choices, but we still make them using free will, and we can overcome those conditionings once aware of them.

An entity without free will could not do this In fact an entity with no free will would not even be able to perceive choices. Once choices are perceived a sapient entity has free will and unless something physicaa prevents it from acting on those choices it also has free choice to act on those perceived alternatives.

Neither consequence, nor knowledge of consequence(including fear of consequence) impacts on a sapient beings free will. It simply determines how informed any choice is. KNowing consequence neither physically, nor in any other way, eliminates our ability to act on the choices we make, unless we let it. (and that letting is, in itself, an act of choice freely made)

[=Jak=]

We humans are smaller than this ant in the universe, are not we?

[longlongago]

We humans are smaller than this ant in the universe, are not we?

Unfathomably so ..

Thankyou .

[Black Hound]

Check out what Freud and Jung have discussed re: free will. It is quite interesting, though it might hit too close to home for some types.