The Top One Reason Religion Is Harmful

[momentarylapseofreason]

Thank goodness you're back from your holiday. Now, you can get back to wasting your precious time bashing the religious some more...

I hear Secularism, Humanism, Islam and Atheism being bashed everyday on Christian radio. Yes, I listen almost every morning.

But one pastor said that you Christians should feel "blessed" and feel "thankful" in your persecution. He really said this over and over!

Oh, I forgot evolution too! The "evil lie", secular humanism = "culture of death" "Atheist Scum"

Edited November 25, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Volition]

From the article quoted in the OP:

There is nothing "unique" about religion in this regard. Human beings are little troubled with reality checks when hatching their many and varied belief systems.

Where is the reality check for economic theories? Where is the reality check for political dogma? Where was the reality check for secular delusions, like the phantom "weapons of mass destruction" stockpiled in Iraq? Maybe it's filed next to the reality checks for racial superiority, or tribal superiority, or sports team superiority.

Human beings fight over every dimension along which two human beings can differ. The mother source of harm is not any one dimension of human difference, but the human inability and unwillingness to accommodate those differences.

Many atheists live in a fairy-tale land where religious thought emerges from some different place than economic thought, political thought, racial thought, and relative-penis-size thought. It doesn't. All fighting thoughts come from inside human skulls, and invade other skulls through contact with infected individuals.

And when the dispute is religious, it makes no difference that the religion is atheist.

The Chinese Communist Party exterminated Tibetan Buddhist clergy in the last century, indiscriminately and on industrial scale. This was not "nation building." The Tibetan political leadership was gone. The atheists' victims were generally monastics, of both sexes, whose only crime was to believe in invisible beings, inaudible voices, intangible entities, undetectable forces, and events and judgments that happen after they die.

It is obvious that very many atheists would fight, maim, and kill another person over such things, if only they could get away with it. Those atheists think that these thoughts offset the humanity of whoever thinks that way, so that the thinker becomes "fair game."

Tibet is the laboratory which furnishes the experimental evidence. When atheists could get away with it, they killed over these things. And not just killed, but murdered innocent men and women with imaginative invention and unhurried attention to detail.

If religion is a problem, then all religions are problems. The author of the quoted matter is in denial that her atheism is a religion. She thinks that the warm rising of the blood she feels as she lovingly itemizes each and every shortcoming of her fantasy opponent is something rational. Indeed, she thinks the rush is proof of her sobriety.

This is risible, or would be if religiosity were not such a dangerous passion.

Thanks eight bits. And I thank you much for mentioning the Tibetan's, their story is a tragic one tied to the tax payed dollars of the US citizens, as the US Gov still has China on 'most honored country' status. it makes me sick. You make some very insight full points. Ones of which I am far to exausted to make myself atm. You are one of the first ones I see here in this thread that I didn't get the feeling cared greatly to be thought of as smart or not. Pride, it is such a neutralizer is it not? Your comments are the most wise I seen here at a fast glance. People blame religion a lot for what is sadly, and often, simply the terrible nature of humans.

Go ahead any others. Blindly discount it all. Hell maybe that is just what the Establishment wants. That is why I shall not.

Peace all.

and

End Time.

[i've been across the veil of this world a couple times in my life. and it is great, and it is wonderfully boundless.]

[Beckys_Mom]

Why the fuss? Well simple really. People are often trying to either force or merely "educate" there religious beliefs on others. This is seen time and time again not only on this board but in physicality as well where religious groups are in local malls, airports and even door knocking trying to get you to "see the light" so to speak.

What us Atheists do is merely attempt to illuminate the inconsistencies in they're own dogma that they either ignore or fail to recognize.

PS: My holiday was grand and for everyone on here i am "perhaps" retiring from being a player....

Peace

T.I.G

You have a point... I mean a lot of religious authors post up their own style that may seem preachy to many.. but to speak up on what they find wrong with atheists ect they will publish it on line...they even post up how we are all doomed..it goes on

SO we have a number of atheist authors too.. its no biggie.. I say – 6-1 half a dozen the other

[Beckys_Mom]

Thank goodness you're back from your holiday. Now, you can get back to wasting your precious time bashing the religious some more...

Sounds to me like you could use a holiday LOL ..... relax mate... no need to jump right on him..lol

[Beckys_Mom]

Why do I keep thinking I am a college freshman when reading this kind of thing? People can think what they want, but do atheist (of her kind, the author) have to sound so much alike. I guess some atheist can be the flip side of the coin that religious fanitics are on. Also if I did not believe God, why all the fuss, why waste time on the subject at all. One life, swiftly gone, eternal nothingness awaiting....so why waste time?

BTW glad you had a good holiday

Peace

Mark

Maybe the author is tired of being harrassed...being told non stop he is doomed? I dunno but hey both sides publish articles speaking out...

The Catholics on the other hand dont need to preach LOL...I havent heard of the catholic church seeking people to convert... with signs saying - turn or burn...LOL

Edited November 25, 2009 by Beckys_Mom

[Mr Walker]

With respect(and maybe because its late and im tired) but arguing that religion is "harmful" is pointless.

Humans are evolved to be in part spiritually sapient beings just as they are evolved o be logically sapient beings Spiritual thought is as integrated into individual humans as logic is becaus our sapienc e evolved via such mecahanisms.

Second humans codify, order, and group everything. Not only do they like to belong, they like costumes hierachies rules anthems etc. So it is inevitable that human spirituality will find form in human religions just as we form political parties for political expression and social clubs for social expression.

Finally, religion /spirituality etc is no more innately destructive or harmful than logic., or scientific method. It is simply a tool to help us understand and comprehend the univerese around us.

Men can use material knolwedge and science to build a solar energy source or an atomic bomb. They can use logic to justify abortion or racism or nationalism. They can use eligion to oppress or to liberate Religion is simply one aspect and form of what humans are; sapient, creative, creatures who, through thought and the ability to manipulate their environment, are capable of both great good and great evil.

It is easy to argue that religion has caused evil but just as easy to accurately illustrate that it has created great good across all human cultures and eras. This is also true for each form of human intelligence and expression.

It is pointless to claim religion is particularly harmful because religion simlpy is; just like art music maths science etc It is the purpose to which individuals and groups of peole put an y of these human forms which determines if they are basically constructive or destructive forces.

If you asked any european if they could have survived without individual faith and organised religion any time up until the last hundred years or so, the great majority would have answered with a resounding no. Reliegion was a totally integrated aspect of their lives. I t provided perhaps the only hope and relief from lives which were short, painful, brutal, and generally without hope of any improvementif religion and spiritual faith was taken out of the equation. As a woman how would you bear a life where 10 out of your 12 children died before they reached adolescence and where you had a fift percent chance of dying in childbirth. As a man, how would you cope with a life of back breaking toil where even such unremmiting toil made worse by many diseases and ilnesses, was not enough to provide a secure food supply, and where starvation was only a few bad days away at many times of the year.

Religion not only provided some physical help and sustenance to many, it provided one non working day each week, and gave most people the courage and ability to carry on living. It regulated their lives in a time when no man owned a time piece, and it provided the ceremonial rites of passage associated with birth death marriage and all other individual and social occasions. It provided many of the healers and people of knowledge in a time of utter darkness.

Despite some failings, it almost single handedly preserved much of the ancient knowledge through the dark ages, allowing the renaissance of knowledge in later centuries. It provided patronage and vision for; art music and architecture including indisputably in each of these areas perhaps the greatest creative eforts mankind has ever sen.

Only in the last century or two has human existence become comfortable eenough for religion(in general) to become an optional luxury rather than a necessity for sanity and survival. Enjoy that freedom if you wish but dont use it to knock a practice which has largely shaped humanity as we know it.

While the comments above relate particularly to wesern religions, they are equally applicable to many eastern ones and many which never had the opportunity to spread via association with western might (technology) and imperialism.

[Seand]

With respect(and maybe because its late and im tired) but arguing that religion is "harmful" is pointless.

Humans are evolved to be in part spiritually sapient beings just as they are evolved o be logically sapient beings Spiritual thought is as integrated into individual humans as logic is becaus our sapienc e evolved via such mecahanisms.

Second humans codify, order, and group everything. Not only do they like to belong, they like costumes hierachies rules anthems etc. So it is inevitable that human spirituality will find form in human religions just as we form political parties for political expression and social clubs for social expression.

Finally, religion /spirituality etc is no more innately destructive or harmful than logic., or scientific method. It is simply a tool to help us understand and comprehend the univerese around us.

Men can use material knolwedge and science to build a solar energy source or an atomic bomb. They can use logic to justify abortion or racism or nationalism. They can use eligion to oppress or to liberate Religion is simply one aspect and form of what humans are; sapient, creative, creatures who, through thought and the ability to manipulate their environment, are capable of both great good and great evil.

It is easy to argue that religion has caused evil but just as easy to accurately illustrate that it has created great good across all human cultures and eras. This is also true for each form of human intelligence and expression.

It is pointless to claim religion is particularly harmful because religion simlpy is; just like art music maths science etc It is the purpose to which individuals and groups of peole put an y of these human forms which determines if they are basically constructive or destructive forces.

If you asked any european if they could have survived without individual faith and organised religion any time up until the last hundred years or so, the great majority would have answered with a resounding no. Reliegion was a totally integrated aspect of their lives. I t provided perhaps the only hope and relief from lives which were short, painful, brutal, and generally without hope of any improvementif religion and spiritual faith was taken out of the equation. As a woman how would you bear a life where 10 out of your 12 children died before they reached adolescence and where you had a fift percent chance of dying in childbirth. As a man, how would you cope with a life of back breaking toil where even such unremmiting toil made worse by many diseases and ilnesses, was not enough to provide a secure food supply, and where starvation was only a few bad days away at many times of the year.

Religion not only provided some physical help and sustenance to many, it provided one non working day each week, and gave most people the courage and ability to carry on living. It regulated their lives in a time when no man owned a time piece, and it provided the ceremonial rites of passage associated with birth death marriage and all other individual and social occasions. It provided many of the healers and people of knowledge in a time of utter darkness.

Despite some failings, it almost single handedly preserved much of the ancient knowledge through the dark ages, allowing the renaissance of knowledge in later centuries. It provided patronage and vision for; art music and architecture including indisputably in each of these areas perhaps the greatest creative eforts mankind has ever sen.

Only in the last century or two has human existence become comfortable eenough for religion(in general) to become an optional luxury rather than a necessity for sanity and survival. Enjoy that freedom if you wish but dont use it to knock a practice which has largely shaped humanity as we know it.

While the comments above relate particularly to wesern religions, they are equally applicable to many eastern ones and many which never had the opportunity to spread via association with western might (technology) and imperialism.

This is totally correct. The need for religion is programmed into us, whether you like it or not, and religion has without a doubt played a significant evolutionary role, we could not have gotten where we are today without it. It provided a coping mechanism for our ancestors whose emerging consciousnesses were just beginning to grasp the brutality of the world.

Sure, it has been hijacked by greedy people throughout history, but so has everything. That doesn't mean religion is a fundamentally bad thing.

[Beckys_Mom]

The need for religion is programmed into us,

In that case I had me a malfunction and the outcome was a better programme... I think you might have heard of it... its called - the common sense programme 2.0 LOL

and religion has without a doubt played a significant evolutionary role, we could not have gotten where we are today without it.

And I guess before anyone heard of a bible or other holy text.... man just couldnt gain any common sense or morals?.... do me a favour LOL

religion had without a doubt played a significant evolutionary role <--- why does the irony jump out of that sentence?? LOL

[Beckys_Mom]

Finally, religion /spirituality etc is no more innately destructive or harmful than logic., or scientific method. It is simply a tool to help us understand and comprehend the univerese around us.

Come again? religion is a tool to help us understand the universe? WHAT? Science is the only thing that helped any of us gain any real understanding as to what the universe is... if we relied on the bible... we would all be thinking we were alone and no other planets in the universe even existed.. and we would still think the sun rises and sets...when its science that gave us as many useful answers as possible

religion doesnt hold a candle with info next to science...this is a fact

[ChloeB]

Come again? religion is a tool to help us understand the universe? WHAT? Science is the only thing that helped any of us gain any real understanding as to what the universe is... if we relied on the bible... we would all be thinking we were alone and no other planets in the universe even existed.. and we would still think the sun rises and sets...when its science that gave us as many useful answers as possible

religion doesnt hold a candle with info next to science...this is a fact

LOL, I'm picturing Galileo in lockdown by the church considering a comment like Mr Walker's there. I'd say it's trumped us up quite bit more about the universe, been an obstacle to overcome.

Edited November 25, 2009 by ChloeB

[eight bits]

Hi, Volition.

Welcome aboard. Thank you for the kind words.

It is a very sad thing in Tibet, and sorrowful that Americans have an involvement with the perps.

And, Chloe, thanks to you, I have been thinking about Hell lately, more than usual .

It may be that the Hell hypothesis holds some kind of longevity record for surviving without checking by any living person. But, you see long-lived fact-free stories in politics, too.

I have friends who came to the United States after growing up under Communist regimes in Eastern Europe. They tell stories about how children, themselves and then their sons and daughters, were indoctrinated to sing and dance to songs about how a "worker's paradise" was about to be established. These ditties were "age appropriate," different songs from nursery school through college. There were even pop songs for the grown ups to join in.

In the songs, the children thank the Party for looking after them - even though they lived in apartments without heat, with electricity and cold running water only part of the day, and irregular meals. That went on for about 50 years.

We can argue about whether anybody actually believed that this worker's paradise was just around the corner. But, I think there is another similarity to Hell: you don't have to have fully invested belief in the truth of the thing. The "serious possibility" of it is enough to influence behavior in the intended direction.

So, I don't know. The WMD story was intended for short-term use. The "worker's paradise" story (even the name sounds like an afterlife parallel) was intended for indefinitely long-term use.

And for the record, the story never was properly falsified. Even now, for all you and I know, Soviet fortunes might have turned, the hardships suffered by Eastern Europeans would have paved the way for their grandchildren, say, to live in that earthly paradise.

Not sayin' that's likely, just sayin' for all anybody knows. And there still are, right now, Communist parties in Eastern Europe, as well as elsewhere. So, somebody must still believe this stuff. Why not? Its ultimate promises have never been checked.

[Beckys_Mom]

LOL, I'm picturing Galileo in lockdown by the church considering a comment like Mr Walker's there.

That's right Chloe.. poor guy.. the christians didnt like his theory....even though he was right LOL....well dare he challenge a more intelligent idea that don't match the bible LOL

Hek in those days using your brain and being unique or even poetic.. you were screwed..........Edwin Hubble would have been burned alive at the stake LOL.............why cant they just take the bible's word for it

[The Silver Thong]

This is totally correct. The need for religion is programmed into us, whether you like it or not, and religion has without a doubt played a significant evolutionary role, we could not have gotten where we are today without it. It provided a coping mechanism for our ancestors whose emerging consciousnesses were just beginning to grasp the brutality of the world.

Sure, it has been hijacked by greedy people throughout history, but so has everything. That doesn't mean religion is a fundamentally bad thing.

Absalutly wrong. Humans have zero inherent programming that requires religion. None zip zero, we are conditioned or programmed after birth to think we need religion. Religion is a delusion from the very min we are exposed to it. From the moment our ears can hear the religious start there indoctrination. Children are religions breakfast, they don't stand a chance against the mountain of BS poured on them. Religion is and always will be a man made concept a concept to keep the boot heels on mans throat.

[ChloeB]

And, Chloe, thanks to you, I have been thinking about Hell lately, more than usual .

It may be that the Hell hypothesis holds some kind of longevity record for surviving without checking by any living person. But, you see long-lived fact-free stories in politics, too.

I have friends who came to the United States after growing up under Communist regimes in Eastern Europe. They tell stories about how children, themselves and then their sons and daughters, were indoctrinated to sing and dance to songs about how a "worker's paradise" was about to be established. These ditties were "age appropriate," different songs from nursery school through college. There were even pop songs for the grown ups to join in.

In the songs, the children thank the Party for looking after them - even though they lived in apartments without heat, with electricity and cold running water only part of the day, and irregular meals. That went on for about 50 years.

We can argue about whether anybody actually believed that this worker's paradise was just around the corner. But, I think there is another similarity to Hell: you don't have to have fully invested belief in the truth of the thing. The "serious possibility" of it is enough to influence behavior in the intended direction.

So, I don't know. The WMD story was intended for short-term use. The "worker's paradise" story (even the name sounds like an afterlife parallel) was intended for indefinitely long-term use.

And for the record, the story never was properly falsified. Even now, for all you and I know, Soviet fortunes might have turned, the hardships suffered by Eastern Europeans would have paved the way for their grandchildren, say, to live in that earthly paradise.

Not sayin' that's likely, just sayin' for all anybody knows. And there still are, right now, Communist parties in Eastern Europe, as well as elsewhere. So, somebody must still believe this stuff. Why not? Its ultimate promises have never been checked.

Well, Eight Bits, it's nice to know I remind you of Hell.

Your worker's paradise example made me think of the Nazi Aryan paradise, and there's no doubt there's people out there still clinging on to that hope as well.

I guess where I'm setting Hell apart from all these other motivators, is that all of these we've discussed contain the possibility of either coming through or not, and being something we can write about in history books eventually one day, leaving something for further generations to learn from and judge, not that we have proven to very reliably to learn from past mistakes, but all of these others do have the capacity for us to do that.

Edited to add:

(LOL, I think I just handed you over this debate with my Nazi Aryan paradise, I don't know if that could ever play out, people could hang on that for almost forever. I fail, hahaha)

Edited November 25, 2009 by ChloeB

[Beckys_Mom]

With respect(and maybe because its late and im tired) but arguing that religion is "harmful" is pointless.

Because you can only argue (like what you have just done throughout this post) that its good....right? only one side right?

But wait..... you then say....

It is easy to argue that religion has caused evil but just as easy to accurately illustrate that it has created great good

So even though throughout your entire post, you have stated how good relgion is.......... so why are you stating how it's pointless for anyone to claim its harmful....especially when they claimed one thing that makes it harmful?

So... breaking this down...

. its OK for you and anyone to totally praise it and claim it does good.......but pointless in anyone saying the harm it has done.......... this is fair WHY?

If one wanted to be very fair about all of this.. they would state - Man created relgion...man followed it and from that came both good and evil doings to all

making it out that there are two sides to the fence?

[Guyver]

As usual i come back and you have nothing to contribute but "wasting" your own hopeless time posting things which have nothing to do with the topic..... keep it up.... i see you've put aside this time to embarrass yourself....again....

Peace

T.I.G

I think you're confusing the words hopeless and hopeful. You see it's atheism that's hopeless. Christianity is hopeful. In atheism you have no hope; just this existence then death and darkness. In Christianity there is hope for a better life when this life of trouble is over.

The scriptures teach us there are these three; faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love. Now, if you take a monkey and put it in a cage from the time of it's birth and give it food and water - it will die. Yes, this has been done. Now you take another monkey and put it in a cage and give it the same nourishment but add connection, even in the form of a researchers puppet monkey. You know, just a monkey glove to love it up at little now and again. It will survive and develop normally. That's the difference that hope and love can make in a life.

[Beckys_Mom]

I think you're confusing the words hopeless and hopeful. You see it's atheism that's hopeless. Christianity is hopeful. In atheism you have no hope; just this existence then death and darkness. In Christianity there is hope for a better life when this life of trouble is over.

And that is just a belief... thank goodness its not an actual fact eh?

Heaven is open to all not just christians....its not as if god only opened up for business the sec christianity was invented LOL

If you think that then you have two hopes ---> No hope and Bob Hope LOL

[The Silver Thong]

I think you're confusing the words hopeless and hopeful. You see it's atheism that's hopeless. Christianity is hopeful. In atheism you have no hope; just this existence then death and darkness. In Christianity there is hope for a better life when this life of trouble is over.

The scriptures teach us there are these three; faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love. Now, if you take a monkey and put it in a cage from the time of it's birth and give it food and water - it will die. Yes, this has been done. Now you take another monkey and put it in a cage and give it the same nourishment but add connection, even in the form of a researchers puppet monkey. You know, just a monkey glove to love it up at little now and again. It will survive and develop normally. That's the difference that hope and love can make in a life.

Wrong, religion is a prison and there in lies the problem. You think religion gives people freedoms when in fact it is complete opposite. How long is religion willing to stand still and spin it's wheels. Religion has far out lived it's usefullness and we need to grow up and face the future not pine over the past and dream of paradise in the clouds worshipping some arrogant god.

[+Sherapy]

I think you're confusing the words hopeless and hopeful. You see it's atheism that's hopeless. Christianity is hopeful. In atheism you have no hope; just this existence then death and darkness. In Christianity there is hope for a better life when this life of trouble is over.

The scriptures teach us there are these three; faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love. Now, if you take a monkey and put it in a cage from the time of it's birth and give it food and water - it will die. Yes, this has been done. Now you take another monkey and put it in a cage and give it the same nourishment but add connection, even in the form of a researchers puppet monkey. You know, just a monkey glove to love it up at little now and again. It will survive and develop normally. That's the difference that hope and love can make in a life.

I appreciate for you, this belief gives your life now, some measure of control, and for some this is important ... Yet, there is no evidence to support these claims..in fact the evidence we do have, about what happens when we die, according to Science suggests, otherwise......

Personally, I think it matters more about what I do now with my life. How I use this time, to become the change I wish to see. I can't see wasting time on things that are irrelevant and immaterial to the responsibilities I have now.....

Edited November 25, 2009 by S♥ ♥ ♥

[Render]

It is pointless to claim religion is particularly harmful because religion simlpy is; just like art music maths science etc It is the purpose to which individuals and groups of peole put an y of these human forms which determines if they are basically constructive ordestructive forces.

No. Spirituality is. Religion is NOT something that just "is". Sheesh..it's 2009 and this still has to be clarified?

Religion is in many ways a perverted way of expressing spirituality.

Ppl (priests etc) in the Vatican even agree that how the bible is interpreted and how religion is perceived is ridiculous.

Fragment of Priest Reginald Foster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1H3KRcqKo

Many, maybe most I don't know, theologians literally say the bible is not to be believed. There was a lecture in town just recently where a theologian gave his lecture of the Old and New Testament. And by the end he said and I quote "Does the book The Bible exist? Yes. Is what their is written in the bible factual and true? No."

The Bible holds some fantastic tales with morals sure. But that's it.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Triade

[Beckys_Mom]

Now, if you take a monkey and put it in a cage from the time of it's birth and give it food and water - it will die. Yes, this has been done. Now you take another monkey and put it in a cage and give it the same nourishment but add connection, even in the form of a researchers puppet monkey. You know, just a monkey glove to love it up at little now and again. It will survive and develop normally. That's the difference that hope and love can make in a life.

Something tells me that irionically that those that preach to others judging them, telling them they have no hope and who they are is just hopeless... if there is a heaven... those people might not make it in and the so called hopeless ones will...

[Beckys_Mom]

I appreciate for you, this belief gives your life now, some measure of control, and for some this is important ... Yet, there is no evidence to support these claims..in fact the evidence we do have, about what happens when we die, according to Science suggests, otherwise......

Personally, I think it matters more about what I do now with my life. How I use this time, to become the change I wish to see. I can't see wasting time on things that are irrelevant and immaterial to the responsibilities I have now.....

Thats it sis..in a nutshell... I couldnt bring myself to tell people they are doomed or even call who they are hopepless

yet the same ones that do this are the ones that complain about the non believers being too arrogant!!

[The Silver Thong]

No. Spirituality is. Religion is NOT something that just "is". Sheesh..it's 2009 and this still has to be clarified?

Religion is in many ways a perverted way of expressing spirituality.

Ppl (priests etc) in the Vatican even agree that how the bible is interpreted and how religion is perceived is ridiculous.

Fragment of Priest Reginald Foster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e1H3KRcqKo

Many, maybe most I don't know, theologians literally say the bible is not to be believed. There was a lecture in town just recently where a theologian gave his lecture of the Old and New Testament. And by the end he said and I quote "Does the book The Bible exist? Yes. Is what their is written in the bible factual and true? No."

The Bible holds some fantastic tales with morals sure. But that's it.

I don't want to seem like I'm flirting or anything but "nice graph" LOL It's amazing to try and understand where we could have been today ahhhh what if. However it's a darn good thing god was looking out for our best interests LOL not.

[ChloeB]

I don't want to seem like I'm flirting or anything but "nice graph" LOL It's amazing to try and understand where we could have been today ahhhh what if. However it's a darn good thing god was looking out for our best interests LOL not.

Cuz "nice graph" is coated with sexual innuendo? LOLOL.

[+Sherapy]

Thats it sis..in a nutshell... I couldnt bring myself to tell people they are doomed or even call who they are hopepless

yet the same ones that do this are the ones that complain about the non believers being too arrogant!!

Sis, for me its simple when one truly has found "inner peace" that's what they share (as that which one is themselves is what they can give, irregardless, the path another walks...

IMO if chritsitanity was such a great path it wouldn't need the amount of convincing and begging for converts and gloom and doom admonishments that goes with it.... ...Its seems to me if a ideology needs to use fear its a sure sign its shady ...