The Pole Shift - December 2012 or Oct 2013?

[jesspy]

Unfortunately, physics has an undeserved reputation as very hard. After a bit of work, it's very easy.

Also, Searcher, I noticed you said something about Polar Wander. To clarify, Magnetic North can move as much as one mile in one day, and is steadily approaching True North, or the actual Axis. According to some theorists, When true north and magnetic earth finally cross, some unexplained phenomenon will cause magnetic north to slingshot, and drag the crust with it. This is not based on any scientific basis, however, so take that with a grain of salt.

That would be a fun ride. It also sounds more plausible then that nibbler planet thingy coming. Plus if the nibbler planet is coming in 2012 would not be visible by now?

[Horrendus Formidonis]

Oh, don't bother with your silly logic.

Yes, a new planet/star invading the solar system, and remaining invisible to us until it reaches Mars makes no sense.

About as much sense as a Planetary Allignment causing the sun to erupt with a new elementary particle which causes massive, destructive, geographical activity, that cliaxes with the eruption of only one of the twelve super-volcanoes, causing flooding which translates into a geomagnetic polar shift, at which point the oceans will rise several thousands of feet. Wait...

[TheSearcher]

It would be interesting to see how many times before this 2012 theory,has somebody predicted the end of the world. Also, the scientific reason behind the prediction.

Thanks

PotterManiac

Ask and you will receive, all the know predictions concerning the end of the world. There's a lot of them, so hang in there.

The below is just part of the entire thing and comes from this really nice site, which does list all alleged prophecies till today.

ca. 2800 BC According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." This is one of the earliest examples of the perception of moral decay in society being interpreted as a sign of the imminent end.

634 BC Apocalyptic thinking gripped many ancient cultures, including the Romans. Early in Rome's history, many Romans feared that the city would be destroyed in the 120th year of its founding. There was a myth that 12 eagles had revealed to Romulus a mystical number representing the lifetime of Rome, and some early Romans hypothesized that each eagle represented 10 years. The Roman calendar was counted from the founding of Rome, 1 AUC (ab urbe condita) being 753 BC. Thus 120 AUC is 634 BC. (Thompson p.19)

389 BC Some Romans figured that the mystical number revealed to Romulus represented the number of days in a year (the Great Year concept), so they expected Rome to be destroyed around 365 AUC (389 BC). (Thompson p.19)

1st Century Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28) This implies that the Second Coming would return within the lifetime of his contemporaries, and indeed the Apostles expected Jesus to return before the passing of their generation.

ca. 70 The Essenes, a sect of Jewish ascetics with apocalyptic beliefs, may have seen the Jewish revolt against the Romans in 66-70 as the final end-time battle. (Source: PBS Frontline special Apocalypse!)

2nd Century The Montanists believed that Christ would come again within their lifetimes and establish a new Jerusalem at Pepuza, in the land of Phrygia. Montanism was perhaps the first bona fide Christian doomsday cult. It was founded ca. 156 AD by the tongues-speaking prophet Montanus and two followers, Priscilla and Maximilla. Despite the failure of Jesus to return, the cult lasted for several centuries. Tertullian, who once said "I believe it just because it is unbelievable" (a true skeptic if ever there was one!), was perhaps the most renowned Montanist. (Gould p.43-44)

247 Rome celebrated its thousandth anniversary this year. At the same time, the Roman government dramatically increased its persecution of Christians, so much so that many Christians believed that the End had arrived. (Source: PBS Frontline special Apocalypse!)

365 Hilary of Poitiers predicted the world would end in 365. (Source: Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance)

380 The Donatists, a North African Christian sect headed by Tyconius, looked forward to the world ending in 380. (Source: American Atheists)

Late 4th Century St. Martin of Tours (ca. 316-397) wrote, "There is no doubt that the Antichrist has already been born. Firmly established already in his early years, he will, after reaching maturity, achieve supreme power." (Abanes p.119)

500 * Roman theologian Sextus Julius Africanus (ca. 160-240) claimed that the End would occur 6000 years after the Creation. He assumed that there were 5531 years between the Creation and the Resurrection, and thus expected the Second Coming to take place no later than 500 AD. (Kyle p.37, McIver #21)

* Hippolytus (died ca. 236), believing that Christ would return 6000 years after the Creation, anticipated the Parousia in 500 AD. (Abanes p.283)

* The theologian Irenaeus, influenced by Hippolytus's writings, also saw 500 as the year of the Second Coming. (Abanes p.283, McIver #15)

Apr 6, 793 Elipandus, bishop of Toledo, described a brief bout of end-time panic that happened on Easter Eve, 793. According to Elipandus, the Spanish monk Beatus of Liébana prophesied the end of the world that day in the presence a crowd of people. The people, thinking that the world would end that night, became frightened, panicked, and fasted through the night until dawn. Seeing that the world had not ended and feeling hungry, Hordonius, one of the fasters, quipped, "Let's eat and drink, so that if we die at least we'll be fed." (Abanes p. 168-169, Weber p.50)

800 * Sextus Julius Africanus revised the date of Doomsday to 800 AD. (Kyle p.37)

* Beatus of Liébana wrote in his Commentary on the Apocalypse, which he finished in 786, that there were only 14 years left until the end of the world. Thus, the world would end by 800 at the latest. (Abanes p.168)

806 Bishop Gregory of Tours calculated the End occurring between 799 and 806. (Weber p.48)

848 The prophetess Thiota declared that the world would end this year. (Abanes p.337)

Mar 25, 970 Lotharingian computists foresaw the End on Friday, March 25, 970, when the Annunciation and Good Friday fell on the same day. They believed that it was on this day that Adam was created, Isaac was sacrificed, the Red Sea was parted, Jesus was conceived, and Jesus was crucified. Therefore, it naturally followed that the End must occur on this day! (Source: Center for Millennial Studies)

992 Bernard of Thuringia calculated that the end would come in 992. (Randi p.236)

995 The Feast of the Annunciation and Good Friday also coincided in 992, prompting some mystics to conclude that the world would end within 3 years of that date. (Weber p.50-51)

1000 There are many stories of apocalyptic paranoia around the year 1000. For example, legend has it that a "panic terror" gripped Europe in the years and months before this date. However, scholars disagree on which stories are genuine, whether millennial expectations at this time were any greater than usual, or whether ordinary people were even aware of what year it was. An excellent article on Y1K apocalyptic expectations can be found at the Center for Millennial Studies. (Gould, Schwartz, Randi)

1033 After Jesus failed to return in 1000, some mystics pushed the date of the End to the thousandth anniversary of the Crucifixion. The writings of the Burgundian monk Radulfus Glaber described a rash of millennial paranoia during the period from 1000-1033. (Kyle p.39, Abanes p.337, McIver #50)

1184 Various Christian prophets foresaw the Antichrist coming in 1184. (Abanes p.338)

Sep 23, 1186 John of Toledo, after calculating that a planetary alignment would occur in Libra on September 23,

1186 (Julian calendar), circulated a letter (known as the "Letter of Toledo") warning that the world was to going to be destroyed on this date, and that only a few people would survive. (Randi p.236)

1260 Italian mystic Joachim of Fiore (1135-1202) determined that the Millennium would begin between 1200 and 1260. (Kyle p.48)

1284 Pope Innocent III expected the Second Coming to take place in 1284, 666 years after the rise of Islam. (Schwartz p.181)

1290 Followers of Joachim of Fiore (the Joachites) rescheduled the End to 1290 when his 1260 prophecy failed. (McIver #58)

1306 In 1147 Gerard of Poehlde, believing that Christ's Millennium began when the emperor Constantine came to power, figured that Satan would become unbound at the end of the thousand-year period and destroy the Church. Since Constantine rose to power in 306, the end of the Millennium would be in 1306. (Source: Christian author Richard J. Foster)

1335 Another Joachite doomsday date. (McIver #58)

1367 Czech archdeacon Militz of Kromeriz claimed the Antichrist was alive and well and would manifest himself between 1363 and 1367. The End would come between 1365 and 1367. (McIver #67)

1370 The Millennium would begin in 1368 or 1370, as foreseen by Jean de Roquetaillade, a French ascetic. The Antichrist was to come in 1366. (Weber p.55)

1378 Arnold of Vilanova, a Joachite, wrote in his work De Tempore Adventu Antichristi that the Antichrist was to come in 1378. (McIver #62)

Feb 14, 1420 Czech Doomsday prophet Martinek Hausha (Martin Huska) of the radical Taborite movement warned that the world would end in February 1420, February 14 at the latest. The Taborites were an offshoot of the Hussite movement of Bohemia. (McIver #71, Shaw p.43)

1496 The beginning of the Millennium, according to some 15th Century mystics. (Mann p. ix)

ca. 1504 Italian artist Sandro Botticelli wrote a caption in Greek on his painting The Mystical Nativity:

"I Sandro painted this picture at the end of the year 1500 in the troubles of Italy in the half time after the time according to the eleventh chapter of St. John in the second woe of the Apocalypse in the loosing of the devil for three and a half years. Then he will be chained in the 12th chapter and we shall see him trodden down as in this picture."

Apparently, he thought he was living during the Tribulation, and that the Millennium would begin in three and a half years or so, which is understandable given the fact that he is known to have been a follower of Girolamo Savonarola. (Weber p.60)

Feb 1, 1524 The End would occur by a flood starting in London on February 1 (Julian), according to calculations some London astrologers made the previous June. Around 20,000 people abandoned their homes, and a clergyman stockpiled food and water in a fortress he built. (Sound familiar? It's just like the doomsday cultists and Y2K nuts of today!) As it happened, it didn't even rain in London on that date. (Randi p.236-237)

Feb 20, 1524 A planetary alignment in Pisces was seen as a sign of the Millennium by astrologer Johannes Stoeffler. The world was to be destroyed by a flood on this date (Julian), Pisces being a water sign. (Randi p.236-237)

1525 The beginning of the Millennium, according to Anabaptist Thomas Müntzer. Thinking that he was living at the "end of all ages," he led an unsuccessful peasants' revolt and was subsequently tortured and executed. (Gould p.48)

1528 Stoeffler recalculated Doomsday to 1528 after his 1524 prediction failed (Randi p.238)

May 27, 1528 Reformer Hans Hut predicted the end would occur on Pentecost (May 27, Julian calendar). (Weber p.67, Shaw p.44)

1532 Frederick Nausea (what a name!), a Viennese bishop, was certain that the world would end in 1532 after hearing reports of bizarre occurrences, including bloody crosses appearing in the sky alongside a comet. (Randi p. 238)

1533 Anabaptist prophet Melchior Hoffman's prediction for the year of Christ's Second Coming, to take place in Strasbourg. He claimed that 144,000 people would be saved, while the rest of the world would be consumed by fire. (Kyle p.59)

Oct 19, 1533 Mathematician Michael Stifel calculated that the Day of Judgement would begin at 8:00am on this day. (McIver #88)

Apr 5, 1534 Jan Matthys predicted that the Apocalypse would take place on Easter Day (April 5, Julian calendar) and only the city of Münster would be spared. (Shaw p.45, Abanes p.338)

1537 French astrologer Pierre Turrel announced four different possible dates for the end of the world, using four different calculation methods. The dates were 1537, 1544, 1801 and 1814. (Randi p. 239)

1544 Pierre Turrel's doomsday calculation #2. (Randi p. 239)

ca. 1555 Around the year 1400, the French theologian Pierre d'Ailly wrote that 6845 years of human history had already passed, and the end of the world would be in the 7000th year. His works would later influence the apocalyptic thinking of Christopher Columbus. (McIver #72)

Jul 22, 1556 In 1556, a rumor was circulating that the world would end on Magdalene's Day, as recorded by Swiss medical student Felix Platter. (Weber p.68, p.249)

Apr 28, 1583 The Second Coming of Christ would take place at noon, according to astrologer Richard Harvey. This was the date of a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn, and numerous astrologers in London predicted the world would end then. (Skinner p.27, Weber p.93)

1584 Cyprian Leowitz, an astrologer, predicted the end would occur in 1584. (Randi p.239, McIver #105)

1588 The end of the world according to the sage Johann Müller (aka Regiomontanus). (Randi p. 239)

1600 Martin Luther believed that the End would occur no later than 1600. (Weber p.66)

1603 Dominican monk Tomasso Campanella wrote that the sun would collide with the Earth in 1603. (Weber p.83)

1623 Eustachius Poyssel used numerology to pinpoint 1623 as the year of the end of the world. (McIver #125)

Feb 1, 1624 The same astrologers who predicted the deluge of February 1, 1524 recalculated the date to February 1, 1624 after their first prophecy failed. (Randi p.236-237)

1648 Using the kabbalah, Sabbatai Zevi, a rabbi from Smyrna, Turkey, figured that the Messiah would come in 1648, accompanied by miracles. The Messiah, of course, would be Zevi himself! (Randi p.239, Festinger)

1654 In 1578, physician Helisaeus Roeslin of Alsace, basing his prediction on a nova that occurred in 1572, foresaw the world ending in 1654 in a blaze of fire. (Randi p.240)

1656 Believed to be a possible date for the end of the world, 1656 is the number of years between the Creation and the Flood. (Skinner p.27)

1657 Final apocalyptic battle and the destruction of the Antichrist were to take place between 1655 and 1657, as per the Fifth Monarchy Men, a radical group of English millenarians who attempted to take over Parliament to impose their extremist theocratic agenda on the country. Not unlike the Christian Coalition of modern-day America! (Kyle p.67)

1658 In his The Book of Prophecies, Christopher Columbus claimed that the world was created in 5343BC, and would last 7000 years. Assuming no year zero, that means the end would come in 1658. Columbus was influenced by Pierre d'Ailly. (McIver #77)

1660 Joseph Mede, whose writings influenced James Ussher and Isaac Newton, claimed that the Antichrist appeared way back in 456, and the end would come in 1660. (McIver #147)

1666 * As this date is 1000 (millennium) + 666 (number of the Beast) and followed a period of war and strife in England, many Londoners feared that 1666 would be the end of the world. The Great Fire of London in 1666 did not help to alleviate these fears. (Schwartz p.87, Kyle p.67-68)

* Sabbatai Zevi recalculated the coming of the Messiah to 1666. Despite his failed prophecies, he had accumulated a great many followers. He was later arrested for stirring up trouble, and given the choice of converting to Islam or execution. Pragmatic man that he was, he wisely elected for the former. (Festinger)

1673 Deacon William Aspinwall, a leader of the Fifth Monarchy movement, claimed the Millennium would begin by this year. (Abanes p.209, McIver #174)

1688 John Napier's doomsday calculation #1, based on the Book of Revelation. Napier was the mathematician who discovered logarithms. (Weber p.92)

1689 Pierre Jurieu, a Camisard prophet, predicted that Judgement Day would occur in 1689. The Camisards were Huguenots of the Languedoc region of southern France. (Kyle p.70)

1694 * Anglican rector John Mason calculated this date as the beginning of the Millennium. (Kyle p.72)

* The beginning of the Millennium, as predicted by German theologian Johann Alsted. (Kyle p.66)

Fall 1694 Drawing from theology and astrology, German prophet Johann Jacob Zimmerman determined that the world would end in the fall of 1694. Zimmerman gathered a group of pilgrims and made plans to go to America to welcome Jesus back to Earth. However, he died in February of that year, on the very day of departure. Johannes Kelpius took over leadership of the cult, which was known as Woman in the Wilderness, and they completed their journey to the New World. Fall came and went and, needless to say, the cultists were profoundly disappointed at having traveled all the way across the Atlantic just to be stood up by Jesus. (Cohen p.19-20)

1697 * The beginning of the Millennium, according to Anglican rector Thomas Beverly. (Kyle p.72, McIver #224)

* The notorious witch hunter Cotton Mather was the Ken Starr of Puritan New England. When he wasn't out hunting witches, he was busy predicting the end of the world, 1697 being his first doomsdate. After the prediction failed, he revised the date of the End two more times. (Abanes p.338)

1700 * The end of the world, according to some Puritans. (Kyle p.79)

* John Napier's doomsday calculation #2, based on the Book of Daniel. (Weber p.92)

* The date of the Second Coming, according to Henry Archer, a Fifth Monarchy Man. Archer made this prediction in his 1642 book The Personall Reign of Christ Upon Earth. (McIver #158)

[TheSearcher]

Just to top the cake, here is some close to 2012 predictions I also found there.

2010 The final year according to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. (Shaw p.223)

2011 Another possible date for Earth's entry into the Photon Belt. (See the May 5, 1997 entry)

Dec 31, 2011 In an interesting parallel to the Harmonic Convergence concept, Solara Antara Amaa-ra, leader of the "11:11 Doorway" movement, claims that there's a "doorway of opportunity" lasting from January 11, 1992 to December

31, 2011 in which humanity is given the final chance to rid itself of evil and attain a higher level of consciousness, or doom will strike. (Wojcik p.206)

2012 James T. Harmon's Rapture prediction #3. (Oropeza p.89)

Dec 21, 2012 Terence McKenna combines Mayan chronology with a New Age pseudoscience called Novelty Theory to conclude that the collision an asteroid or some "trans-dimensional object" with the Earth, or alien contact, or a solar explosion, or the transformation of the Milky Way into a quasar, or some other "ultranovel" event will occur on this day. Anyway, something is supposed to happen, and he has lots of pseudoscientific gobbledygook to back up his thesis.

2017 The "Prophet Gabriel" supposedly told the Sword of God Brotherhood that the "dying time" will come in 2017, and only members of the cult will survive. Everyone else will "perish in hellfire."

Sep 28, 2020 George Madray predicts a Yom Kippur Parousia in 2020. (McIver #2854)

2022 James T. Harmon's Rapture prediction #4. (Oropeza p.89)

2023 Ian Gurney predicts in his book The Cassandra Prophecy - Armageddon Approaches that the "final date, Judgement Day, the end of mankind's time on this planet, is less than twenty two years away" from 2001, which means that the world is set to end by 2023 at the very latest. The entirety of his website can be seen here.

2025 In this post, Georgann Chenault, a frequent poster on Usenet, wrote "I think the rapture of the church will be before 2025."

Nov 13, 2026 According to an article published in Science magazine in 1960, this was the date that the world's population would reach infinity. (Source: Jacksonville.com)

2033 Believed by many to by the 2000th anniversary of the Crucifixion, this is a date just begging to be targeted by doomsayers whose prophecies for 2000 and 2001 will have failed.

2035 The Raëlians are working hard to establish an embassy in Jerusalem in anticipation of the 2035 arrival of aliens called "elohim", who will usher in a New Age. However, their arrival is contingent on the completion of the embassy. (Robbins p.164)

2037 In her book The Call to Glory, psychic Jeane Dixon wrote, "The years 2020-2037, approximately, hail the true Second Coming of Christ." The Battle of Armageddon is to take place in 2020. (Dixon p.170, 172)

2040 * Pyramidologist Max Toth predicts the physical reincarnation of Jesus Christ occurring in 2040. Like other pyramidologists, he used the dimensions of the Great Pyramid's passageways to predict future events. (Weber p.195)

* John Smart of Singularity Watch estimates that a "technological singularity" will take place around the year 2040, when technological advancement reaches asymptotic levels. After this apocalyptic event, a new era of balance and compassion will begin.

[Nik Xues]

You forget mine in 2012 i die.

And well since im god you go down with me.

the science being that this world is a fabrication of my mind and thus when the mind dies it will die.

Wait thats not science thats an assumption.

well whatever if i die at 26 the world at least end sfor me right??

[Lander7]

If the location were ever revealed, the keepers of such an object would immediately move it and put a false item in its place.

[aneelsamuel90]

Oh sweet jesus, do NOT bring up the movie 2012. It is so full of inaccuracies, it's not funny. What is funny is seeing the mindless idiots who watched it, and immediately started flipping out like it was a movie version of the bible.

Yup, it's very sad how people use the movie in arguments based on solid research... I'd rather watch a 2012 documentary than the movie as for the pole shift there is no evidence that it will take place on such a great magnitude as to cause the end of the world...

[danydandan]

I'm still looking for ''proof'' or a good agruement why people think this planet is real and not some crap like '' i read stichens book and it just made sense''

[Virot Maglan]

I honestly think the pole shift will not be sudden, or happen within a few short days. I think that if the pole shift would happen then it is already happening, slowly. It is slowly shifting to its new position, but then again this is jus an idea.

[fenris1011]

This "pole shift" would take thousands upon thousands of years. We will be long dead by then and 2012 will be looked upon as another Y2K.

[Essan]

The only sort of geophysically possible 'pole shift' (other than magnetic pole shift) would occur relatively quickly - maybe as fast as just 2 or 3 million years. It's known as true polar wander. Life on Earth would be affected by it in the same way the planet Jupiter would be affected by a collision with a fruit fly.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Essan

[Mattshark]

The only sort of geophysically possible 'pole shift' (other than magnetic pole shift) would occur relatively quickly - maybe as fast as just 2 or 3 million years. It's known as true polar wander. Life on Earth would be affected by it in the same way the planet Jupiter would be affected by a collision with a fruit fly.

[Eldorado]

I wish all the Poles we have in the UK would shift themselves back to Poland.

[Mattshark]

I wish all the Poles we have in the UK would shift themselves back to Poland.

They did, that is part of the reason why our economy is going down hill. I mean how dare people come to a country they have a legal right to be in an work really hard. Maybe if the UK wasn't the fattest and laziest nation in Europe we wouldn't need foreign workers.

Now go deep fry your Mars bar.

[danydandan]

They did, that is part of the reason why our economy is going down hill. I mean how dare people come to a country they have a legal right to be in an work really hard. Maybe if the UK wasn't the fattest and laziest nation in Europe we wouldn't need foreign workers.

Now go deep fry your Mars bar.

I like the fact that a person who has set there location as Belfast UK rather than Eire is saying ''I mean how dare people come to a country they have a legal right to be in '' To a person in scotland

[Mattshark]

I like the fact that a person who has set there location as Belfast UK rather than Eire is saying ''I mean how dare people come to a country they have a legal right to be in '' To a person in scotland

Hey I was born in Scotland!

And Belfast is part of the UK. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Historical politics just get awkward and have absolutely nothing to do with me.

[Eldorado]

tsk tsk

I was joking about the Poles....I like them, and they have not all left, in fact the numbers are rising.

Find your comments a bit rich seeing you are Northern Ireland, where immigrant workers have been under physical attack.

Maybe when the Poles do shift, your head won't be up your backside.

[Mattshark]

tsk tsk

I was joking about the Poles....I like them, and they have not all left, in fact the numbers are rising.

Find your comments a bit rich seeing you are Northern Ireland, where immigrant workers have been under physical attack.

Maybe when the Poles do shift, your head won't be up your backside.

In Northern Ireland, not from Northern Ireland and I certainly don't condone what went on here!

Born in Dumfries and grew up in Liverpool.

I think Glasgow may be the exception then because across the whole UK the Polish population has declined because they started to pay better than us in Poland.

[Eldorado]

From Scotland, to England, to Ulster?....when you moving to Wales?

Sorry bout the head up backside remark, I get annoyed when ppl mention fried mars bars....which I've never seen for sale in my life.

As for the Poles, I think thats a govt/media con that they're all going home. There numbers have certainly not decreased in Glasgow or Aberdeen, the 2 cities I'm usually in. They'd be mad to go home just now anyway as currently they can work casual here, collect benefit and share a flat with 5 of their mates.

I don't blame them and rather feel sorry for them, that they have to leave their country to earn some decent cash.

[SlimJim22]

From Scotland, to England, to Ulster?....when you moving to Wales?

Sorry bout the head up backside remark, I get annoyed when ppl mention fried mars bars....which I've never seen for sale in my life.

As for the Poles, I think thats a govt/media con that they're all going home. There numbers have certainly not decreased in Glasgow or Aberdeen, the 2 cities I'm usually in. They'd be mad to go home just now anyway as currently they can work casual here, collect benefit and share a flat with 5 of their mates.

I don't blame them and rather feel sorry for them, that they have to leave their country to earn some decent cash.

The UK is soft, Europeans on a whole work harder, not to generalize too much but we are becoming a lazy nation.

Could it be a ploy to get many people incited by immigration to the extent where xenophobia becomes accepted. People would then vote for UKIP the supposedly legitimate fascist party. Who knows where that would lead us though. How could we turn our backs on Europe without more bloodshed. It's not the migrants fault it is ours and our incompentent admisnistrators who fail to legislate correctly. Better for the EU to fund enterprise in eastern Europe and increase their demand for labour than to overdevelop the UK with an increasingly foreign work force. This leads to jealousy on too many fronts.

[Mattshark]

From Scotland, to England, to Ulster?....when you moving to Wales?

Sorry bout the head up backside remark, I get annoyed when ppl mention fried mars bars....which I've never seen for sale in my life.

As for the Poles, I think thats a govt/media con that they're all going home. There numbers have certainly not decreased in Glasgow or Aberdeen, the 2 cities I'm usually in. They'd be mad to go home just now anyway as currently they can work casual here, collect benefit and share a flat with 5 of their mates.

I don't blame them and rather feel sorry for them, that they have to leave their country to earn some decent cash.

I went to uni in Wales!

NP mate.

In Liverpool it is hard to tell in general as there are always lots of tourists, here aside from at the Polish deli, not really seen many. My gf is German and she is pleased that she can get Polish food though as it is very similar to German food.

[Jon Anon]

Another possibility is the woman of revelation 12 is EVE:

Notice satan starts as a snake in the garden but is a dragon in the end and this dragon is trying to kill the woman(Eve) but when he can't kill her he tries to kill the remnant of her seed(her children)

1. The woman Eve clothed with the sun means clothed with Gods' righteousness

2. moon under her feet means to have dominion over those who rule over darkness(the sun is to rule over the day and the moon to rule over the night)

3. The 12 stars around her head are the 12 tribes and she wears them as a diadem because she will have dominion over them

4. The man-child she is bringing forth is Adam just as Adam brought Eve forth in the beginning of the book but Eve is bringing him forth by clearing a path for Adam to come forth because when Eve is in the role of Elijah many people will believe this witnesses and will have the power to clear a path through the anointing of God.

Revelation 12

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This sign happens October 6 2013 and I'm thinking it may bring forth Eve in the Elijah office as it is happening in the heavens that day:

The bible starts out in genesis with a tree of life and a snake. In the very end of the bible they are still talking about the snake but now he is a dragon and the tree of life do you really think those 2 that started in the garden with the snake wont be in the end of the book. The end is still talking about the tree of life:

Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city