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Left-Field

9/11: The Black Boxes at Ground Zero

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Left-Field

In the episode that aired today (Wednesday, 12/9/2009) Jesse Ventura has an interview with a man named Mike Bellone. Mr. Bellone was at the WTC as one of the members taking part in the clean-up after the destruction. He claims that not only did he witness one of the black boxes being recovered, but that the FBI agents who recovered that one stated two of the others were recovered as well (3 of 4 from the Ground Zero location in total).

Not only does he make that claim, but in the "Conspiracy Theory" episode that aired tonight, Jesse Ventura says Mike Bellone told him that one of the black boxes (from AA Flight 11 I believe it was, not certain on that though) reveals that the terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Mr. Bellone originally claimed to have people who have heard the black boxes audio willing to talk about it on camera with Ventura, only to then state they changed their minds once Ventura arrives to interview them. Mr. Bellone says these people are scared for their lives because the government keeps a close watch on them in order to make certain they do not discuss what they have heard on these recordings.

The official version of events states that no black boxes from the Ground Zero location were ever recovered. During the episode, they speak with an expert in regards to black boxes and the likelihood of them being destroyed beyond the point of being identifiable who states it is a near impossibility due to the way black boxes are constructed and the type of damage they are capable of withstanding.

I was wondering if anyone else had seen the episode and what their thoughts are on the government claiming the black boxes at Ground Zero were never found, along with any thoughts on the claim by Mr. Bellone that they were not only found, but reveal the terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Any reason to give credence to this, or are we to believe Mr. Bellone and his claims are a bunch of nonsense?

Edited by Broken Arrow

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Obviousman

I'd like to see some strong evidence before I give any credence to what they say... especially Jessie Ventura. There have been a number of claims regarding 9-11 which have been disproven; let's see if he / they were actually there first, then let's examine the claims.

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flyingswan

Isn't Bellone the guy who was convicted of impersonating an NY fireman and stealing equipment?

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Obviousman

Isn't Bellone the guy who was convicted of impersonating an NY fireman and stealing equipment?

Yep!

Peter Applebome's feel-good "Our Towns" column yesterday about Michael Bellone, the "honorary firefighter" who bought a firetruck as a memorial to 9/11 victims, missed a few pertinent details about the supposed hero -- including his 2005 arrest for criminal impersonation, possession of stolen property and grand larceny. Among other things, Bellone was accused of stealing equipment from the NYC Fire Department at Ground Zero in the days after the World Trade Center attacks.

http://www.nytpick.com/2009/09/peter-applebome-forgets-to-use-google.html

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Left-Field
Isn't Bellone the guy who was convicted of impersonating an NY fireman and stealing equipment?

I didn't see if he was convicted or not, but yes, he has been accused of obtaining equipment from the New York Fire Department (he claims a fireman gave it to him). His Trauma Response Assistance for Children (TRAC) "program" has also come under fire for him representing it as if it has some sort of connection to the New York City Fire Department. He claims those were never his intentions.

Nonetheless, Bellone's claims about the black boxes having been found are also made by a person named Nicholas Demasi, who was a New York City firefighter in 2001. I believe DeMasi actually made the claims first and that Bellone than backed up the claim by stating he had seen one of them.

_________________________

9/11 "black box" cover-up at Ground Zero?

DeMasi, an all-terrain vehicles hobbyist - said he donated 4 ATVs to the clean-up and became known as the ATV Guy.

At one point, I was asked to take Federal Agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes, he wrote. We were getting ready to go out. My ATV was parked at the top of the stairs at the Brooks Brothers entrance area. We loaded up about a million dollars worth of equipment and strapped it into the ATV...

There were a total of four black boxes. We found three.

_________________________

How credible any of this is, I really don't know. The claims have been made by these two men however. And in the case of Mr. Bellone, as mentioned in the "Conspiracy Theory" episode regarding 9/11, not only were 3 of the 4 black boxes recovered, but there are people who have heard the recordings and that the recordings reveal one of the flights had terrorists in the cockpit before it even took off.

I don't know why he would bother to make a claim such as that based on nothing. I know the claim about finding the black boxes was made a few years back, but as far as I know this is the first there's been anything said about the boxes revealing terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

I would like to think if someone is going to make such a claim it's something he wouldn't make up, but who knows.

Edited by Broken Arrow

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Left-Field
I'd like to see some strong evidence before I give any credence to what they say... especially Jesse Ventura. There have been a number of claims regarding 9-11 which have been disproven; let's see if he / they were actually there first, then let's examine the claims.

What reason is there to question Jesse Ventura anymore than there is to question news presented to us on a daily basis by the mainstream media?

And when you say "he / they" who are you referring to? And what place are you referring to as "there"? If the question is whether or not Mike Bellone was actually someone who participated in the clean-up at the World Trade Center, the answer is yes - that much is true.

Edited by Broken Arrow

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flyingswan

I know the claim about finding the black boxes was made a few years back, but as far as I know this is the first there's been anything said about the boxes revealing terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Could be the same claim that the cockpit door never opened on the aircraft that hit the Pentagon, discussed on this thread:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=169964

It appears to be a dubious claim as there is no evidence that the FDR actually collected the cockpit door data.

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Left-Field
It appears to be a dubious claim as there is no evidence that the FDR actually collected the cockpit door data.

I'm not talking about the cockpit door though. I'm talking about the fact there are two people who claim black boxes were recovered from the Ground Zero location. One man says that 3 of these boxes were recovered. The other man states that not only were they recovered, but that upon being listened to it was revealed terrorists were in the cockpit before one of the flights had taken off.

It would also stand to reason that these black boxes should have been recovered when you consider how they are constructed and the fact fragments as small as fingernail clippings were being found and used as a means of identifying victims by their DNA.

To claim that not one shred of any of the four black boxes was recovered from the wreckage is rather surprising when taking that into account.

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preacherman76

Isn't Bellone the guy who was convicted of impersonating an NY fireman and stealing equipment?

I wonder if he was accused before, or after he made the claim that he saw the black boxes. He wasnt convicted of anything, so under what basis is he accused?

Edited by preacherman76

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Q24

Jesse Ventura says Mike Bellone told him that one of the black boxes (from AA Flight 11 I believe it was, not certain on that though) reveals that the terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Something about this specific part of the claim does not add up - Mike Bellone played no greater role than a volunteer rescue worker at ground zero, so why should he in particular be privy to details of the cockpit voice recorder? If the source were a named individual within the NTSB or an associated agency then I would be more willing to accept this claim.

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flyingswan

If something as small as an FDR can survive and be found in the wreckage (three times even), it torpedoes the conspiracist claim that all the controlled demolition equipment could so easily be missed by all the people involved in the clear-up.

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Q24

If something as small as an FDR can survive and be found in the wreckage (three times even), it torpedoes the conspiracist claim that all the controlled demolition equipment could so easily be missed by all the people involved in the clear-up.

Are you saying you believe that three of the black boxes were recovered?

If the answer is “no” then it is disingenuous of you to attempt to argue using the above reasoning, i.e. “If the black boxes were found then the demolition units would also be found but… I don’t believe the black boxes were found”. I hope you wouldn’t try that type of faulty logic.

If you answer “yes” then I first give credit for you accepting that once again information is being concealed by authorities from the investigation and public. I would then go on to point out that the black boxes (in fact being bright coloured, usually orange with white stripes) such as this…

IACV01P06_02.jpg

… and all conspicuously marked with the large print “FLIGHT RECORDER DO NOT OPEN”, would be infinitely easier to identify as a significant find than the remains of some non-marked and nondescript demolition units.

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keithisco

It is curious that no flight recorders were found, but a passport of an alleged terrorist was apparently found undamaged?? In the same environment (the cockpit) which would logic decree , to survive??

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raoulduke666

Has there been any documented cases of commercial airliners where the black boxes were NEVER found besides 9/11? Hmmm

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Q24

Has there been any documented cases of commercial airliners where the black boxes were NEVER found besides 9/11? Hmmm

Yes, there have been nine aircraft crashes in history from which the FDR and/or CVR were not recovered. Of these it is unsurprising that seven involved crashes into the ocean or body of water… you know the crash location of the other two.

Flight 11 and Flight 175 on 9/11 are the only air crashes on land where the black boxes were (supposedly) never recovered.

List of unrecovered flight recorders

Note to add because I know it’s going to happen: please do not confuse the above with air crashes where the black boxes were damaged beyond use – there are a number of incidences of this, though no confirmation that the black boxes (or their pieces) were not recovered in some form.

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Farmer77

It is curious that no flight recorders were found, but a passport of an alleged terrorist was apparently found undamaged?? In the same environment (the cockpit) which would logic decree , to survive??

DING DING DING !!! We have a winner!!!

I don't pretend to know the truth or have any answers, but one thing I do know is there are wayyyy too many credibility gaps in the official 9/11 story....Just sayin

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KennyB

This is just another hole in the official story of the Twin Towers destruction. It joins many, many more holes in that operation. KennyB

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Obviousman

DING DING DING !!! We have a winner!!!

I don't pretend to know the truth or have any answers, but one thing I do know is there are wayyyy too many credibility gaps in the official 9/11 story....Just sayin

No, you are looking at an aircraft incident in isolation. You had an airliner crash into a building. Easily possible that many light items survived, perhaps even blown clear. Then you have two massive buildings collapse; that is what can lead to the destruction of FDRs / CVRs. What little survived the crush may have been in rubble that was removed.

It is far from uncommon for objects to survive aerospace incidents. Look what was recovered from the CHALLENGER and COLUMBIA disasters. Have a look through some detailed aircraft accident reports.

It seems strange because you don't have experience in the area. I'm sure you could relate aspects of your profession which seem counterintuitive.

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Obviousman

What reason is there to question Jesse Ventura anymore than there is to question news presented to us on a daily basis by the mainstream media?

Because you check the facts from everyone. Just because it is from Jesse, it is not automatically true. Likewise it is not automatically false... but his personal opinion is that it was some type of inside job / demolition / etc, and he has a guy on his show - about conspiracy theories - that supports his personal opinion. I'd like to independently check the facts for myself.

And when you say "he / they" who are you referring to? And what place are you referring to as "there"? If the question is whether or not Mike Bellone was actually someone who participated in the clean-up at the World Trade Center, the answer is yes - that much is true.

Because I did not see the interview with Mr Bellone, I used he / they in case there were others which support his story. I used "there" in the context of exactly where he was. Again - checking the facts.

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Obviousman

This offers a few things to think about:

http://www.911myths.com/html/black_boxes.html

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Czero 101

It is curious that no flight recorders were found, but a passport of an alleged terrorist was apparently found undamaged?? In the same environment (the cockpit) which would logic decree , to survive??

Flight Data Recorders are generally not located in the cockpit, but rather in the rear / tail section of the aircraft. In a crash those sections tend to sustain less damage and remain more intact that the cockpit section, increasing the probability of finding the FDR's and CVR's and finding them intact.

Cz

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Obviousman

You can also read about it here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=161681

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Torgo

I do not believe that there have been crashes in the past, though, that involved a plane hitting a web of steel girders at 500 miles per hour, being exposed to a jet-fuel-accelerated inferno for hours, and then falling nearly a hundred stories surrounded by the remains of a skyscraper.

If ANYTHING can destroy the black boxes of an aircraft, that kind of extreme environment is a good place to start thinking about the possibility. As the above poster mentioned, the black boxes HAVE been damaged beyond repair or usability before. They are not indestructible. Most likely the crash reduced them to small pieces of rubble indistinguishable from the rest of the plane. Perhaps they cracked wide open and the fires destroyed their internals, and the pieces of the skin lost their color. I don't know, but again if any environment can destroy these things, the crash into and fall inside the towers is a good candidate.

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flyingswan

Are you saying you believe that three of the black boxes were recovered?

If the answer is “no” then it is disingenuous of you to attempt to argue using the above reasoning, i.e. “If the black boxes were found then the demolition units would also be found but… I don’t believe the black boxes were found”. I hope you wouldn’t try that type of faulty logic.

If you answer “yes” then I first give credit for you accepting that once again information is being concealed by authorities from the investigation and public.

No, I am not saying that FDRs have been recovered. I am just pointing out that various conspiracists have claimed (i) that FDRs have been found three times in the debris and (ii) that a lot more much larger and more robust items of controlled demolition equipment, to wit thermite column cutters, could not possibly be noticed in the debris. I am pointing out that there is a lack of consistency between these viewpoints.

Do you really think that the FDRs would still be bright orange after surviving a building collapse? At best, they'd be the same grey colour as the rest of the debris.

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sinewave

In the episode that aired today (Wednesday, 12/9/2009) Jesse Ventura has an interview with a man named Mike Bellone. Mr. Bellone was at the WTC as one of the members taking part in the clean-up after the destruction. He claims that not only did he witness one of the black boxes being recovered, but that the FBI agents who recovered that one stated two of the others were recovered as well (3 of 4 from the Ground Zero location in total).

Not only does he make that claim, but in the "Conspiracy Theory" episode that aired tonight, Jesse Ventura says Mike Bellone told him that one of the black boxes (from AA Flight 11 I believe it was, not certain on that though) reveals that the terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Mr. Bellone originally claimed to have people who have heard the black boxes audio willing to talk about it on camera with Ventura, only to then state they changed their minds once Ventura arrives to interview them. Mr. Bellone says these people are scared for their lives because the government keeps a close watch on them in order to make certain they do not discuss what they have heard on these recordings.

The official version of events states that no black boxes from the Ground Zero location were ever recovered. During the episode, they speak with an expert in regards to black boxes and the likelihood of them being destroyed beyond the point of being identifiable who states it is a near impossibility due to the way black boxes are constructed and the type of damage they are capable of withstanding.

I was wondering if anyone else had seen the episode and what their thoughts are on the government claiming the black boxes at Ground Zero were never found, along with any thoughts on the claim by Mr. Bellone that they were not only found, but reveal the terrorists were in the cockpit before the flight had taken off.

Any reason to give credence to this, or are we to believe Mr. Bellone and his claims are a bunch of nonsense?

My spidey sense is tingling. Or is that my BS detector? So they extracted the black boxes from the rubble and pressed the "Play" button right there for him to hear the recording? Please.

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