Fenris Vs Falco: Theologys examined

[Fenris]

I find it interesting, now that I think about it, that Tibetan thought forms sound much like the Aspects of different Gods Fenris reffered to. I wonder if that's working along the same lines?

Very much along the same lines, the main diffrence between a 'standard' thought form and a god/dess aspect is the inclusion of the archetype from the akashic records/collective subconsious. As I see it there are many diffrent types of 'thought form' all using the same base principles, the Tibetan ones you reffrence and the aspects, to me, are but two of them.

You mentioned previously that your Theology incorporated Wicca, Shamanism and the Qabbala. What aspects of each have you taken for your own? Or have you incorporated all three belief systems in thier entirety?

Its difficult to deal with them in isolation as they where part of the path that brought me to where I am now, and the reasons they where the right choise at the time are as important to undertanding their impact as the tenets of each themself. So, a description of what brought me to this point....

Warning, some of it isn't pleasent!

Even going back to my earliest memorys around age 2, there are events that defy standard scientific analysis. Out of body experiences, finding myself riding as 'passenger' in an animal in the local area, other forms of 'remote viewing', limited spontanious pre-cog, being visited and talked to by my grandfather some few hours after he had actualy died........

Now the only theological influence in my enviroment was Catholic christianity.... and that simply didn't have any answers for what I was experiencing. One particularly blinkered individual even mentioned 'demonic possession' which I instinctivly knew was not the case.

After turning my back on the church at age 7, I started looking for my own answers, it took a number of years but eventualy I fell in with a gentleman who not only seemed to understand the experiences and relate similar experiences of his own (And when he did so i could 'feel' the truth of it, I 'knew' he was relating actual experiences that mirrored those of my own) and moreover he was able to help me consiously invoke several of the experiences in a more controlled manner where I could study them and learn from them. It was he who initiated me as a shaman.

He did have several shortfalls as a teacher however, namely I was being taught how to invoke the innate abilitys and then go with the flow, follow them and learn from them but not control them...... Then teenage hit with a vengence. A year or two after parting ways with him (He moved and we lost touch) Events in my life turned me into a very angry young man...... You can probably guess just how destructive the combination of that mind set and those abilitys are, especialy in refrence to what I later discovered about the 'equal and opposite reaction' of negative energy.... Anger and no control ment a great deal of negativity in my enviroment. Many people suffered a great deal of unfortunate 'co-incidences' not least myself.

Approaching late teenage I had developed into nothing more than a violent nasty animal and self destructive to boot (Alchoholism and exteame risk taking). Its said that when you can't go any lower, you face a chose.... I was there and the choise was this.... I realised I was someone whom I dispised and I either had to find a way to change that person..... or finish it because continuing as that person became something I was not prepaired to do.

Luckaly I had continued looking for answers even as the rest of my life was flushing itself down the toilet.... at that point I was examining aspects of eastern religion, and in that I was able to find enough inner peace to be able to work on myself. I went cold-turkey on the booze for a full year until I was sure I could control it rather than it controlling me and started developing anger management techniques....... of course this automaticaly lessened the amount of negativity I was throwing out and corespondingly the amount of negative impact on my life also lessened!

Most of the work during this time was medative, self exploratory and working on internal energys to redirect anger into a less negative responce pattern (I started verbaly exploding when annoyed rather than automaticaly hospitalising the person who made me angry).

This continued with gradual improvement both in the quality of life and stability, I was slowly but surely becomming someone I could tolerate and even, in some aspects, someone I saw I could eventualy like.... I was moving in the right direction

At the time one of the groups of people I was frequently interacting with was authors and I ended up corresponding breifly with one who was a wiccan. Who I'd read seemed sanitised and fluffy, but what he was saying was more real and made sense, I felt drawn to learn more so he organised an introduction to a lady a couple of hours away from where I lived. An innitiate of his who had hived off and formed her own coven....

Now I had started to develop a little self control on a personal level, but during my year and a day neophyting I began to realise how little control I had in my working and with my energys. She had her faults (Ego) but was a GREAT teacher, my learning curve went through the roof in all sorts of ways, especialy in control and understanding..... finaly I was starting to find the answers I'd been seeking, I began to understand not just how to do what I was doing but also the whys and, in some cases, the why nots. Whilst I would intuitivly take the easiest method in achieving the goal I had set, she taught me that the easiest way is not always the best way. I stopped the last of the negative enery projection and used the effect to my own benifit, invoking possitive energys.

My HPS (High priestess) was also a cabbalah innitiate and a couple of year in, I was asking questions and examining areas that wicca doesn't much touch on.... I was running out of lables to explain what I was doing and experiencing. Thats when she introduced me the the Kabbalah. The whole thing is steeped in Judeo-Christian symbolism and rhetoric but there are very useful tools in there. The Cabbalistic 'tree of life' is quite frankly one of the most versitile tools I have encountered to date. It not only provides a way to lable and therefore discuss the entire range of theological and metaphysical experience, but also a great structure for deep meditation.

Eventualy however I'd exhausted what I could learn from her, I'd learned to work with a group..... only to find I worked better alone. I learned to use 'working tools' .... only to find I didn't need them. I learnt to work with many god/dess forms... only to see through them to the raw energy of the universe at their core. I realised it was time to spread my wings and fly alone... only to find that as in most organisations, her ego didn't want to relinquish her percieved control..... I left anyhow.

So apart from the roles they played in my life, what do I currently take from each?

I am a shaman in the way I innately work, instinctual. I am a wiccan in the amount of care and control I apply to that working and I am a Cabbalist in the way I understand and can discuss that working!

Here's a question that may require some thought.... In what way does your theology , your beliefs manifest in your everyday life.... is it something you take time out to 'do' or is it integrated into the way you live?

[Permakid]

I don't want to butt in too much, so I'll be brief. Guys, I am thoroughly enjoying this thread! I share many ideas with both of you and I'm looking forward to reading more of your discussion!

I am writing because I have a question for you, Fenris. In a previous post, you asked this question:

Ghosts, poltergeists and things that go bump in the night.... from your PoV of the way the universe works, what are they and how do they occur?

If you don't mind, I'd like for you to answer your own question. Thanks!

[Falco Rex]

This may sound strange, but I find that my beliefs effect me more in thier absence than thier presence. To clarify a bit, If God doesn't watch me ,judge me, or punish me, then it is up to me to do these things myself. Therefore I try to perform no action that I would condemn myself. If there is no real judgement at the end of life then the responsibility of judging my worth and actions falls upon me while I'm alive.

Although I do believe in Karma I think it's as random a force as God. We all know there's some who don't get what they deserve in life. I don't want to rely on randomness to judge whether my actions merit punishment or not.

In short I place the responsibility of what I am firmly on my own shoulders. Living up to your own standards can be an incredibly difficult thing at times, but I do the best I can with it.

To use some alliteration, If I'm truly the captain of my own ship, it's up to me to run the kind of ship I'd like to sail on. When I fail to live life as I'd like to there's no Higher Power to confess to or ask forgiveness so it seems best to me to not need absolution in the first place..

There's nothing I really "Do" as part of an everyday religious routine except for occasional meditation like I've mentioned. Although these peaceful moments are getting few and far between as my son gets older I really don't feel I'm lacking in any way because of it.

I realize that the above views sound Atheistic in tone, but really they aren't. I just believe that since "God" provided us with free will and higher thought, he/she/it wouldn't interrupt our gifts by imposing judgement or Dogma upon us. It would make the original gift worthless..

I hope that made some sense to you readers out there..

I'll ask another fairly easy question of you Fenris,since you'll no doubt want to reply to Permakid as well. I believe you mentioned in another thread that you had two sons. How does your belief effect them,if at all? Do you educate them on your views, or are you content that they find thier own center alone? And how do your beliefs effect the way you bring them up?

[Chauncy]

Falco

Although I do believe in Karma I think it's as random a force as God. We all know there's some who don't get what they deserve in life. I don't want to rely on randomness to judge whether my actions merit punishment or not.

I like this idea of random Karma. It has been an observation of mine that the reason why what goes around comes around is because it was put out there in the first place. Where as when someone fills their life with negative actions they then create a world around them of negativity. Therefore they end up living in a negative environment and this is why it comes back to them negatively.

This is why it is always beneficial to fill our lives with this good/positive energy, so we exist in a positive environment as will those that co-exist with us.

Fenris

Approaching late teenage I had developed into nothing more than a violent nasty animal and self destructive to boot (Alchoholism and exteame risk taking).

I realize that we all make mistakes, would you be of the notion that the most positive thing you can do with your mistakes is gain wisdom from them. Where as in hindsight once you've realized your errors that the next step is to correct them, as you did, then finally gain from them. In essence the negative energy we create for ourselves can in fact be turned into a positive strength.

I feel that this should be the path in every aspect of life. I never get scared of failure this way because I know that I will rise up stronger and wiser. Bring it on I say!!

[Fenris]

Permakid asked:

I am writing because I have a question for you, Fenris. In a previous post, you asked this question:

Not dis-similar to Falco on the subject of ghosts, there are several types that people use this lable for and from my PoV several causes of the phenomina.

Poltergeists, tend to apear around some teenagers and is almost certainly some form of uncontrolled telekenetic activity. Sometimes when the teen says "I never touched the vase, it just jumped off the table and smashed all by its self".... they are sort of telling the truth.

As for visual events, and ghosts that you can in some way interact with its a combination of two things (And dependent on how much each is present will determine the actions/capabilitys of the apparent ghost).

Firstly, as any scientist that has worked with electro-magnetic fields can proove, if you surround an object that is receptive with a flow of energy (Such as a coil on insulated wire round an iron bar) you can imprint the object with that energy dispite there having been no direct contact (The wire is insulated, so the energy doesn't actualy contact the object, yet if the charge is high enough and applied for long enough the metal in imprinted and begins to show that change by acting as a magnet)......

What has this got to do with ghosts? Everything! It shows energy can and does get imprinted on objects..... Apart from our bodys, what are we? Our thoughts, memorys, personality all work in energy impulses in the brain (They can even measure the impulses and tell you what sort of thing you are thinking from what part of the brain the energy is most active in!)

If we are in one place for long enough doing the same thing.... OR we have a traumatic event that releases a large enough burst of energy then we can imprint that on the surrounding objects..... That imprint can later be picked up by those receptive to doing so. Now we don't actualy 'see' objects.... our eyes see them and send impulses to the brain where we 'decode' the signal and 'see' the image. What often happens is that people pick up the imprint, but it isn't through any of our normal senses.... so it routes through a part of the brain that can make some kind of sence of whats being picked up.... your eyes aren't seeing the signal but the same part of the brain that allows you to see is doing the translation.... so you effectivly see the ghost. It also explains why some will see the ghost, others only get a 'chill down the spine' (They can sense the imprint but their brain don't know how to make sense of it!) and others get nothing at all.

Usualy these are just images, non interactive snapshots of events long ago that where imprinted on the surroundings. Remember I said there are two elements to ghosts, this is the second and rarer one but it is the cause of ALL the 'worst case senarios! Occassionaly receptive people will unwittingly empower them, turning them into thought forms where upon they can display an interactive nature.... but it isn't the imprint that is doing it.... rather the receptive person.... take them from the enviroment of somehow stop them empowering the thought form and the interactive nature stops, just leaving the base imprint again.

And pre-empting the question, yep I've seen and dealt with all the phenomenon I described, it is those experiences on which I base what I believe of the subject. In short I don't believe in 'ghosts' and so I tell any that I meet

Falco asked:

you mentioned in another thread that you had two sons. How does your belief effect them,if at all? Do you educate them on your views, or are you content that they find thier own center alone? And how do your beliefs effect the way you bring them up?

A bit tricky in that one as neither lives with me. The first I was very young and she wasn't(and her husband thinks its his son.... thankfully he can't count (Or doesn't want to)) I had nothing to do with his upbringing and no contact since he was born.

With my youngest his mother and I where together for around four years before she decided to find herself a better meal ticket and ripped our family apart.... But I did raise him for that time so my answer is based on that...

Given my beliefs are that everyone needs must find and walk their own path, wherever that path takes them, I don't have much Dogma to instil in a child of mine. He was encouraged to communicate and question. The few occassions he asked about other religions (Prompted by meeting kids from diffrent religions at Kindergarten) I found open minded people of those religions for him to ask.

I took the view that if he was old enough to form the question then he was old enough for some level of honest answer, it occassionaly took a bit of work from both of us to find words he could grasp and concepts he could understand but we would keep going till he was satisfied he had is question answered..... A lot of it began, "I don't know if there is any answer, but I can tell you what daddy believes... as you get older you can try and find your own answer OK"

I guess the main diffrence was that he was brought up with a healthy sense of reality..... For instance, he knew that what turned up on his plate at meal times where parts of the pigs, sheep, fish, ducks etc that he saw elsewhere. He was always told as much of the truth as he could grasp and given the oppertunity to make up his own mind.

Chauncy asked:

would you be of the notion that the most positive thing you can do with your mistakes is gain wisdom from them

If you don't learn from your mistakes then your doomed to repeat them! There are many unpleasent things in my past (Some that makes the things I've mentioned so far look like a rose garden!) but if I was in a position to go back and change any of it.... I wouldn't, as the rocky road which I've walked led me to being who I am today.... and I happen to like who I am now

"That which does not destroy us, only serves to make us stronger" Is something my Grandmother used to say and is SO right..... the weakest, shallowest, most nieve and bland people I've ever met have lived in spoiled protected enviroments and the biggest adversity they had to overcome was a paper cut from all the money they parent gave them..... with nothing to challenge you, you don't learn as fast!

OK Falco..... here is a hypotetical situation for you (Only sort of hypothetical as I had it happen to me) a young person (Say around 20) has known you for a while and seems more than a little impressed with the way you view the univers. You know they have been seeking the next step on their path.... they aproach you and ask "Teach me"...... how do you respond?

[Ozmeister]

OK Falco..... here is a hypotetical situation for you (Only sort of hypothetical as I had it happen to me) a young person (Say around 20) has known you for a while and seems more than a little impressed with the way you view the univers. You know they have been seeking the next step on their path.... they aproach you and ask "Teach me"...... how do you respond?

They will learn by the example you set for them. Let them learn by being around you. Unless you're spiritually mature enough to know how to go about teaching them, you will do them more harm than good.

The world doesn't need anymore gurus, it's screwd up enough now as it is. It's precisely why religious ideology/dogma has done more to hurt people than show them how to live their lives.

They will find their own path. No one can show it for them. Don't be afraid to proffer any feelings and philosophy you may have, but don't make it sound like instructions on the how-to and wherefor of life. Let them decide what to take in or reject. Just be their friend......in reality that's all you need to do.

Spiritual mentoring (or any form for that matter) takes great maturity and even more onerous responsibility......not only to the person whom you're the mentor to, but also to yourself. The interaction runs both ways and you can't escape that.

[Falco Rex]

Ozmeister covered my feelings on the subject pretty well. The only things I can add is that first I'd tell that person that being a teacher implies that I have facts to teach. All I have is theories and suppositions..

But to get a little further into it, I would have to know that person fairly well before I wanted to "Teach" my views to them. If you read my reply about how my theology effects my everyday life you'll realize just how easily it could be twisted to justify doing whatever you want, whenever you want. I'd want to know this hypothetical person well enough already to determine that they had at least some leaning towards responsibility and integrity.

My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..

Well, you've stated already that this has happened to you. So how did you handle the situation?

[Fenris]

Its happened a couple of times and both times (Albeit in diffrent ways) I've pointed out that they where looking for answers in the wrong place. Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion.

All to many people seek out a 'teacher' because they want to do anything except look honestly within themselves.... afraid of what they may find!

Plus the fact that I'm not a teacher..... I've done it when I've had to. I've been an assistant lecturor handling a class of ESM adults on the mundain side.... and had responcibilitys to teach the then current crop of neophites during my time with the coven.... and when I have to, I do a reasonably good job..... but I'm not a natural teacher, I'm not drawn to do so, I don't enjoy doing so (OK watching the faces of the Neo's when I was hammering home the traps and pitfalls of specific intent in 'magic' was sorta fun ).

My views on theology don't seem to me to be ideal for public consumption, and they definitely aren't for the lowest common denominator type..

It was precisely the fact that you where obviously seeking your own answers rather than sheep-like following anothers dogma that made me think this would be a worthwhile excersie

OK.... for his next trick, Falco will create the universe!.... erm... well rather, hopefully he will explain his views on the how and why of the universes origins

[Venomshocker]

Nobody else knows your relationship with the divine but yourself, in 'following' another you are mearly hiding from yourself, you may get distracted by the bell's and whistles of paraphanalia, ritual and organisation but unless you work within yourself you won't make any real theological progress, and that what realy counts when in comes to religion.

Ah, man, that is an awsome statment.

I reallly,really have to say I agree with you on that. That quote is goin down in my books.

Well put.

[Falco Rex]

There's really not too much I can say on the creation of the universe,not having been there myself. Of the various theories I've heard so far I believe the Big Bang holds up pretty well.

If you want to give God any credit at all for this you might say that it was a divine spark that touched off the original explosion although it's not like you could set that opinion in stone.

Something had to get everything going however. I've yet to hear a satisfactory theory from science on what that may have been. When Mysticism fails we must turn to science, and when science fails we must turn back Mysticism. The Universe seems beautifully circular that way.

In time I'm sure scientists will be able to prove the hows and whys of the Universes' origins, and when they do I'll be happy enough to believe them. Until they do, "God started it off" is a good enough explanation for my limited mind.

Perhaps this wasn't a very good answer and if not I apoligize...

I tend to keep my thoughts pragmatic if I can. I can speculate on life after death and such because someday I'll die and find out if my theories bear out or not, but there's nothing I can do to witness the Universe being born so I don't spend too much time worrying about the whys of it..

I'm going to boomerang your question back at you. Since I had such a feeble post this time around I'd like to see your view on it, it's got to be better..

[Ozmeister]

The more I look at the beauty of the universe and the laws which govern it, the more I come to see that there is an intelligence behind it all. That doesn't mean the intelligence is necessarily interventionist or anything like what you read in most religious texts (which I think are explanations based in ignorance for the most part....as they have been, and are presently conceived). What it means is that this intelligence created (for want of a better word) this reality in order to experience existence as it is perceived here, and to evolve and grow. It is the fundamental guiding principle (or thought, if you will) behind it all. It knew what was needed to create a living reality, so it set about defining the parameters which would allow that to occur. It then let nature take its course, so far as the material aspects of the universe are concerned. Now that intelligence is present in everything......it is nature, but it's also more than nature. It's self awareness is evident in life itself. It's sentience is evident in all entities that are aware of their self awareness.......humans for example.

God is greater than the sum of all the parts, but the parts are all God, nevertheless. Of its sentience, though no one part can be God, they can know what it is to be like God.

[Fenris]

Quite similar to Ozmeister except in one important respect.... I see no signs of inteligent thought behind it, just natural (Or super-nature) laws at work. It goes something like this....

I am an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with and if I start without enough then this builds up a strain in the natural system of how I work.... that strain triggers me to convert some of my infinate energy into more matter (So I will have enough to work with).....

Thus the material univers experiences a "BIG BANG" (Note, this is a natural reaction, not a 'thought')

Now my energy, in the material world, is the energy of life and thought. So part of the 'laws' that govern the universe I create is that where possible life will develop and that life will tend toward evolving into creatures which can not only live, but also think.

Over billions upon billions of years (Which is like an eyeblink to me... I am eternal and infinate) bacteria grows to algea, to plants, to multi-celled organisms, that hunt each other leading to evasions behaviour, which requires better hunters, which means creatures evolve which are better able to 'out think' how to catch their prey and better hunted who can out think and avoid those hunters and so on, all the time raising the inteligence bar..... until creatures develop who are intelligent enough to break out of that cycle.... at this level they are intelligent to start thinking on a metaphysical level!

Physics tell us that energy can not be created, nor destroyed, just changed in form...... thinking and living, are part of the energy of the universe itself. The higher level you think and work at, the greater rate you transfer eaten matter back into life energy.

This is supported by the fact that the universe slowly gets less dense over time.... now this could also be explained by an expanding universe, or by there being less matter in the universe... probably IMO both are true. (There is also a pun in there about the more you think, the less dense you are, but I haven't had enough coffee yet )

Now eventualy, you get to the stage where a great majority of the matter has been returned to its 'pure' energy state..... however you loose the amount for matter needed to sustain life in the material world, the system collapses. You run out of thinking beings able to work on the last of the matter!

Again I am an an infinate energy source, my natural state is to try to be as pure an energy form as I can be.... but I have this irritating bit of matter that is part of my make up..... to work with matter, I need enough matter to work with...........

Etc. It has no memory and is not inteligent, it can not think one its own, it simply reacts according to the laws which govern it...... its this process being the meta-physical process behind the recuring big bang and expanding-contracting univers theory.

Its very much a 'work in progress', less my 'belief' than a best guess so far based on those things I do believe and I'll continue to question that best guess till I find a fundamental flaw in it where upon I'll modify it according to what I find.

People who believe in 'God' tend to say "We where put here for a purpose" I agree we do have a purpuse (Though we happen naturaly rather than 'being put').... that perpose is to THINK as its the one thing that the divine can't do for itself.

I seem to have been mostly choosing the directions the discussion goes in, to avoid becoming some sort of unelected 'chairman', I'll pass the question setting baton on this occassion and see where Falco wants to lead us

[Ozmeister]

The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such. Although it really depends on what you define as intelligence. However, you need to drop all preconceived notions of what intelligence is and look at it with a fresh mind.

The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.

Given the nature of quantum mechanics, the chances of an universe occuring which has all the prerequisites for life, as ours does, is virtually nil. Why??.....because there is an infinite number of possible universes which can form from all the possible random quantum energy fluctuations. Most of which will have characteristics far from the optimum for life.....in fact most will be lifeless because in each universe there is an infinite set of possible characteristics whcih it can take on. However, whilst the possibilities for life bearing universes is slim, it's not zero and given the infinite numbers of universes and possibilities, there will be a very large number of universes which will have life in them. Now, you might say, well you've just shot your original premise in the foot. With all that infinity of possibilities, that life is here is due to random processes.....non intelligent ones.

But here's the clanger......given all that infinitesimal possible randomness, what was the function that set those possibilities in a life bearing universe such as ours to be so finely tuned, that even the slightest variation of those characteristics whcih make it up would render it lifeless......possible even matterless. Why, in experiment after experiment, does it appear that the mind is intimately connected to the fundamental workings of the universe at a subatomic level.....that the observer and the observed are not only connected causally but also experientially. Though it appears to be disconnected at a macroscale, this is an illusion, but it is one which is real and has measurable effects and consequences. What causes that apparent disconnection??. Why is the force of gravity so precisely balanced in its strength when compared to the other fundamental forces of nature such that if that balance was different by 1 part in 100 trillion, we wouldn't be here to talk about this. Why is a proton exactly 1836 times heavier than an electron. It could just as easily been 200 or 2000 times an electron's weight. Why can a simple mathematical equation (a fractal) generate all the repeatable patterns that we see in nature (snowflakes for example). How come we're even here to talk about this.....the Big Bang predicates that equal amounts of matter and antimatter should be produced on the breaking of the symmetry of the false vacuum that preceded Inflation (from the energy that was present in spacetime). There appears to have been 1,000,001 particles of matter for every 1,000,000 antimatter.

I could go on here, but I won't. Too much rambling as it is. However in my mind and experience, things are just a wee bit too contrived and convenient to be the result of a completely random and thoughtless act. As for paranormal forces (supernatural if you will), they don't exist. All forces, no matter what their origin, are a part of the order of things. It's only our (very) limited understanding of them which causes us to lable them as being "paranormal", "supernatural" etc. Even God is a part of the order of things.....we just don't see that because our "vision" is limited.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Ozmeister

[Fenris]

The intelligence behind it all can be seen, if you know where to look and recognise it as such.

And I can equaly state that people who ascribe inteligence to such a natural system are guilty of projection and wishful thinking. I look and I see beauty, but no inteligence..... and I've looked pretty darn hard.

Its your opinion, fine, but don't try to make it a statement of fact because it most certainly isn't.

You say that the chances of it all working are remote.... I see that it works that way because its the only way it can work. Space in a bloody big place, the number of chances for things to develop toward life (IMO a natural drive of the basic, un-inteligent laws of the universe) on one planet or another are too many to count. Even if it is only possible in a fraction of one percent, how many millions upon millions of stars are there for that to be applied to? We only think this star is remerkable because its the one we evolved at, it could have just as easily been any number of other stars and it would have made little diffrence. If we had evolved orbiting a diffrent star we would have no doubt thought that equaly as remarkable and some would claim it so remarkable that it 'prooved' inteligent thought' behind the force of the universe.... they would be just as wrong as to what constitutes 'proof'

[Chauncy]

The laws which govern the physical structure of the Universe at both quantum and higher levels are too contrived and elegant to be something like random fluctuations made by an unthinking force or energy. The matter and energy which create this Universe are so precisely balanced and finely tuned as to its characteristics that it implies a consciousness, sentience is there. We may never be able to fathom or understand what that is, but it is there.

In what respect is this physical structure "too contrived"? One thing I've noticed with randomness is that the more random a system is, the more variables and the more 'ingredients' if you will, actually increase the odds of a specific result.

I would assume then that there is a specific point where randomness reaches a point of complexity that pattern actually forms randomly.

As far as earth or any life bearing planet is concerned these are as a result of this chaos produced pattern. Thats why we look for planets that revovle around Suns, it would be a logical conclusion in my opinion that these Sun orbiting planets have been rendered so by this chaos induced pattern and is really not subject to any theological interpretation but seems more like the environment that our theology exists in......in my opinion.

"Sasselov's team is not alone. Since 1995, teams of astronomers across the country have detected about 100 large planets zipping around stars in far-distant solar systems. The discoveries are the result of new, indirect methods that sense planets by carefully observing their stars." http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Dai...nets030224.html

[Venomshocker]

Wow, that was an incredible explanation Ozmeister. Wow!!

That pretty much sums up alot of what I believe also. Incredible.

Fenris, and Chauncy. The possibilites of a life sustaining planet in a universe so large as ours, are intriguing. In fact I believe, ther is life outside our planet.

But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not. And I must agree with Ozmeister on this, the more you study this, and the more you look into it, the more contrived it seems.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Venomshocker

[Fenris]

I see nothing contrived about it... but having diffrent opinions on the matter is fine The world would be a boring place if we where all the same.

People once thought that eclipses where proof of an angry god.... but we now see the very rational, non-intelegent reasons for it... Life evolved as it did because thats the way it can and nature tends toward creating life.... no thought, just the effect it has.

And yes, I believe that given the magnitude of the universe it is inconsevable to me that there wouldn't be life on other planets. In fact it's highly unlikely that we evolved first (Some race has to be, but its a one chance in billions that its us). However I don't believe we have been visited by them..... You travel hundreds of light years and discover alien life on a distant planet.... So you scare a few yokles and fly off again?!?!?!? I don't think so.

[Chauncy]

But the fact still remains, and its not about what are the chances of a life sustaining planet. Its more about what are the chances, of matter/energy that make everything up even existing. This precludes, whether there are possibilities of life sustaing planets in our universe or not.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the matter/energy even existing. I mean we are here right. This fact and this fact alone make it entirely probable of life elsewhere as far as I'm concerned.

Now if you mean that life was created here and that was the end of this life rendering energy, then I would have to say that energy cannott be destroied so it must be somewhere.....it would seem also that since life is still created here on earth then this energy must still be active.

I may be misunderstanding what you mean though.

[Falco Rex]

I rather like the direction this thread is headed in now so I'd rather not shift the focus away to some other subject..

I tend to agree with Ozmeister and Venomshocker. Even zero speculation publications like Smithsonian are running articles on how the Universe seems to have a sentient purpose to the way it works.

While I agree with Chauncy to some extent in the fact that randomness will produce complex laws and patterns given time, randomness cannot sustain that pattern. If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time. As it is, even though things change they always work within the patterns that already exist. There really is nothing new under the sun. Science makes new discoveries all the time about the nature of the Universe and yet these discoveries only seem to add to our knowledge without changing the basis of existence itself..

While I don't think whatever the force we call "God" has an intelligence the way we percieve it.It certainly seems to me that there is indeed a "blueprint" of sorts behind it all...

[Chauncy]

randomness cannot sustain that pattern

I feel that there is no need to sustain the pattern once it comes about. Through all the random chaos a pattern is produced, say DNA, now once that DNA is produced as the pattern from chaos, it will continue on it's own.

If it does continue or not, is totally random after the pattern is created. So if it fails to continue then another pattern, theoretically, could be produced as a result of chaos and any other variables left from the previous pattern.

If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time.

There is I believe a basic formula that our universe obides, these patterns that bring life are a result of this formula. I see the product of this formula being the chaos or randomness and the patterns being a product of the product.

The basic formula I see as unchanging.

[Falco Rex]

That confuses me a bit, would you care to elaborate? It seems we both believe the Universe follows a basic pattern and yet from there we've veered off in opposite directions.

You seem to take the stance that the Universe developed it's pattern randomly and yet the pattern it set abides in perpetuity. It seems like a paradox, although I may have misunderstood you..

It just seems to me that if things really were random we'd see more examples of that in nature itself, and yet almost everything can be charted, graphed and categorized to the point where almost nothing seems like coincidence, although that may well just be human nature at work..

[Chauncy]

You seem to take the stance that the Universe developed it's pattern randomly and yet the pattern it set abides in perpetuity. It seems like a paradox, although I may have misunderstood you..

We do actually see a lot of pattern as a result of chaos, to elaborate further on my last post (after re-reading I realized its vagueness) the Earth and its atmosphere are a pattern that emerged from chaos. Within the atmosphere of the earth is sparked another chaotic system, thats why weather and earthquake and psychic forcasting is so difficult, yet within this system we have a lot of patterns emerging as a result.

Like ice falling through the atmosphere and being rendered snowflakes, everyone a pattern from chaos but random patterns, where as no two are the same.

Now this chaotic system within the earths atmosphere employs infinite variables all colliding together to produce the pattern of the snowflakes. Its not intentional or designed it is as a result of....

Now there is a perpetual regeneration here where new random variables are produced as a result of chaos, we can view these as either patterns or more chaos......example: Humans are a result of chaos, humans create pollution, pollution affects the Earths atmosphere, so there are new variables for earths atmosphere as a result of the random patterns created from the Earths original chaos...

I see the universe expanding as a result of more variables being created as a result of random patterns creating more and more random patterns. The possiblities are endless as with the universe.

Who knows what chaotic variables were around a hundred trillion years ago....we live in the variables that exist today. What we see and witness is only the variables acting in the basic or fundamental environment in which they spawned.

I guess I would say that the universe is self sustaining whether we are here or not.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Chauncy

[Ozmeister]

What I meant by contrived is the exact nature of the physical characteristics and the mathematical functions which the laws are based upon. Given the nature of the quantum, those natural laws (including gravity) could've had any value at all. Given that the Universe is as finely balanced as it is, there has to be a reason for that. Like I previously mentioned, some factor appears to be allowing the Universe to behave the way it does, because the probability of it turning out otherwise is far greater than it having turned out the way it did. Many other universes wouldn't be like ours simply because of the probabilities they can exhibit.

Even in chaos, there now appears to be an implicate order. If everything was truly random, especially when at a quantum level, nothing would exist but a pure field of energy. Nothing would form because there would be no base upon which it could form.....no variations in that energy field. It would be 100% isotropic, completely smooth and without change.

And I can equaly state that people who ascribe inteligence to such a natural system are guilty of projection and wishful thinking. I look and I see beauty, but no inteligence..... and I've looked pretty darn hard.

Its your opinion, fine, but don't try to make it a statement of fact because it most certainly isn't.

BTW Fenris, it's not just an opinion of mine.....it's the considered reasoning of a great many scientists as well....especially those dealing in cosmology, quantum physics etc. So far as the intelligence goes, projection and wishful thinking are entirely a function of the understanding of what is there and what the understanding (definition) of that intelligence might be. As I said before, you have to really look at this with a fresh mind. Intelligence, God, Higher Mind....whatever you want to call it, is not some anthropomorphic entity sitting on a chair in amongst the clouds, or even a mind as we would define it. We can only describe what it might be using the language that we have, and that makes understanding it difficult to start because I feel that language as we know it can't even begin to touch this. The only way to describe it is to call it an intelligence. It appears to be thought like in nature, but what it truly is I doubt we will be able to quantify scientifically.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Ozmeister

[Falco Rex]

Thank you Mr. Chauncy that's much more clear and I can see how you arrived at your conclusion. I'm going to have to stick to my guns also though. I had to do some lengthy research on Abiogenesis for my How we started debate on the debates board(So it really bugged me when the competition backed out) and one of the things I found the most fascinating is that even randomness has rules to follow..

Although it may be random that electricity would occur in just the right amount of charge and in just the right environment to stimulate the first life to change; the reactions that happened during that change were governed by the laws of chemistry and were anything but random. If anything chaos and order seem to work hand and hand with each other. To me this suggests an even greater order that we can barely begin to comprehend..

All that said my special areas of knowledge are history and zoology. I'm only beginning to get interested in physics and such lately, so there may be concepts that I haven't yet grasped that will change my mind sometime in the future..

My favorite part about learning things is that you're never really "done."

[Chauncy]

Maybe the word 'contingent' would better explain my belief as well....where as things are possible to happen but not certain to happen.