Fenris Vs Falco: Theologys examined

[Falco Rex]

Whoops, didn't see your post up there Ozmeister, we must have posted at the same time. That explains why I believe as I do in much better terms than I could write down myself. Thanks..

[Ozmeister]

Notice something about the snowflakes?? Although each generated pattern is unique, within each flake there is a repeated pattern of symmetry and an angle generated between the major sections of the patterns....an implicate order. That is, beneath the apparent chaotically generated patterns, there is an underlying order. It's fractal generated, radially symmetrical and the angle is 110 degrees......which is angle the hydrogen bonds make with oxygen in a water molecule. The bond angle is due to the combined geometry's of the Oxygen p and Hydrogen s orbitals

[Venomshocker]

With all this talk about, order and randomness, I feel it would be right to post an interesting article on the subject. Its quite a read, but rewarding in the end. Especially the last section of the article.

http://nujournal.net/choice.html

This article really helped me define in what I believe.

[Fenris]

If it were true randomness the patterns would constantly change and the laws of physics could re-invent themselves over time.

Actualy, according to the latest quantum 'M' Theory, that wouldn't be far from a correct statement. Our physical laws are set, but 'M' theory speculates (And does the obligatiory unintleigable math thing to show that it could work) that what we percieve as our reality is but one of many. The image is of the differant realitys randomly moving through a membrain that conects them.... and states that it is most likely that the other realitys would form diffrent physical laws to our own!

Where the realitys collide for a time, the physical laws of both, reinvent themselves in the area they are touching for a time, till the realitys seperate again.

Or so goes the theory....and that is of course an extreamly simplified laymans description. I have an interest but when they go into the more complex math about it they loose me

[Ozmeister]

(And does the obligatiory unintleigable math thing to show that it could work)

You're like me......though I don't mind the math, when I see the integral sign or a dt/dx, I just shutdown I'd rather not deal with it

[Fenris]

(And does the obligatiory unintleigable math thing to show that it could work)

You're like me......though I don't mind the math, when I see the integral sign or a dt/dx, I just shutdown I'd rather not deal with it

Yep, I can follow it to a certain point, but then my brains start dribbling out of my ears. It isn't that I'm bad at math, just that their math tends to be at doctorate of mathematics level

But to do the speculative math behind a thirteen dimentional universe you sorta need to be at that level.

[Falco Rex]

Now that I've waited a while for the complicated math talk to go away I'd like to return to the Aspects of Gods as I feel they deserve more attention than they've gotten..

Fenris stated that he could call up and work with various aspects, and that they had no real sentience beyond what they needed to have to deal with an individual(Or something along those lines).

My first question would be, exactly how you can work with them and what their purpose is?

Secondly, do they effectively cease to exist when you're done? It would seem to me that with so many years of human thought and worship put into them, they would have at least some sentience and will of their own, in much the same way a writer will tell you that a well-written character will escape their imagination and begin to write themselves..

[Fenris]

I stated the energy itself has no inteligence, in dealing with an aspect your are dealing with more than just the basic energy.

Firstly there is the archetype, this is basicaly the template for whichever god form aspect you are dealing with. This is, like you suggest, created by millions upon millions of people belief in what that god/aspect represents/looks like/acts like.

At this point we are still not dealing with anything that can act independently. it is there, very much like a character in a book, the lines are unchanging, static.... until its read, then it takes of a life of its own. (I also refer back to where I mentioned the Akashic records, as that is where it is most likely these archetypal templates are formed.... within the collective subconsious)

So we have the base energy plus the template archetype.... the third 'ingredient' is us, the individual invoking/working with it...... It is our will (Consious or subconsious) that is 'doing the reading' and breathing a sort of life into the template. I doing so we also project part of ourself into the 'god', where two people work with the same archetype the result will be two slightly diffrent 'gods', each subtly reflecting how that person views them and interacts with them. They will be mostly the same because of the 'weight' of the archetype but changed because it is an individual who's empowering the process.

In ritual Wicca, such things are invoked both as an act of worship, but also to learn through experience AND to aid other workings. IE. on hearing that a small fishing boat has gone missing in the Irish sea, a group could invoke Manannon (Celtic sea god) to help focus their work toward the fishermen being found and rescued safely.

It can work solo too. On a recent holiday, just as I was bording the rather small ferry (Only big enough to carry two cars at a time) from Mull over to Ardenmurchen point, a large squall started blowing in. Taking a coin from my pocket and inwardly invoking Mannanon, I focused on getting safe passage across whilst tossing the symbolic 'payment' over the side...... Co-incidentaly the squall didn't actualy arrive properly till we where but yards from the dock at the other side (Then it came in with a vengence, minutes later the driving rain was being blown almost horizontaly and the sea was swelling madly along the coast as we drove away!)

When I stop empowering it, yes to some extent is stops 'existing' but only the active thought form. The archetype remains, as unchanged by me stopping working with it as it was by me beginning.

They also make useful tools on an internal medative level, because they are not 'just' you, they have also the 'personality' from the archetype, so they can give a somewhat objective viewpoint (It isn't as if most other people can come with you into that internal medative space! Thought forms can, because as well as having other aspects, they are also a part of you!)

It isn't just 'gods' that work in this manner, Totamic archetypes also follow the same 'rules'. These of course mostly have mundain parralells in the material world.... but a wolf totum, for example, isn't just a wolf, it is peoples perceptions of the wolf, so even though it's form is that of an animal, its personality is somewhat anthropomorphised, it can communicate and reason at more than animal level....... Such have been used by Shamanic types all over the globe, but the Amerindian one has been most popularised and thus probably easiest to explain (Just want to point out that it is for explination only... I am a celt and work mostly with animals that have lived or live in these isles. I'm not part of this dratted 'fashion' for being 'an american indian' living in the UK.... buffalo have NEVER lived here as a native species!!!!!!)

Popular culture mostly depicts such things as 'spirits', invoking the coyote spirit for instance will give the shaman chance to interact with, learn from and work with a thought form embodying the 'essence' of how his race views the coyote but at a level of inteligence comparable to that of the Shaman.

Kabbalists also use such things when working with the 'tree of life', they will invoke the thought form of the archangel Sandalphon, ruler of the sepheroth of Malkuth (The sepheroth concerned with the material world and the starting point for any working with the tree of life)

In all three paths I have been initiated in, they are present. Wiccans see them as gods, Shamans as totums or spirits and Kabbalists as archangels, but they all follow the same basic premise and IMO are none of those (Except in archetypal form) but rather are all thought forms.

A writers character still needs the involvement of the writer to 'live' they don't jump out of his head and hijack the typewriter whilst he's out at the pub. Once that writer passes on they may inspire another writer to work with them, acting like the 'archetype' above but only when that new writer begins to work with them do they in any sense 'live' again (Not quite true, with a good writer, the characters 'live' to some extent each time the book is read)

[The Nameless One]

Wow I leave for a good while come back and bam!!! Chaos. I love it well I use to love it, I love to hate it. ahhhh. Have fun with your debate. By the way Watch the movie Pi. If you have any questions about chaos fill free to ask me.

Actually it's kind of ironic that atoms forged from the universe, developed curiosity, and consiousness. The universe trying to understand itself.

Peace out.

The Nameless One

Theistic Chaos

[Fenris]

Falco, in a prior post you stated.....

I just believe that since "God" provided us with free will and higher thought, he/she/it wouldn't interrupt our gifts by imposing judgement or Dogma upon us.

Which implies the belief in a consious, inteligent creator divinity.... yet one that doesn't control us as that would impinge on the free will that you believe it created us with..... if so, then what was the perpouse behind such a creation?

[Falco Rex]

Notice that I didn't say we were created by God. I believe in the theory of Abiogenesis myself. However we have agreed that living things use gods energy and return it when we die...

From here on in I'll be posting pure wild speculation, so bear with me...

Imagine if you will the first creatures to devolop some intelligence and sense of self. When they die God recieves a small portion of that and becomes aware of itself. As evolution continues and the intelligence gets higher God becomes more intelligent too. Since God is not bound to a single life but recieves a portion of all thoughts you can see how quickly intelligence would be built..

Now imagine that God found a way to communicate small portions of the total divine knowledge to a small but promising looking group of Hominids. The hominids used these bits of information to help them develop along their evolutionary journey and along the way their thoughts turned to what might be greater than them, or what might explain things they could not. Thoughts directed at God further empowered the divine energy and increased it's own sentience..

So in my worldview God and Man evolved co-dependant on each other..

Every once in a while, a human recieves inspiration from the Divine and the resulting change in society from that whether it be physical, spiritual, or technological empowers God with something new to It's makeup..

I don't believe God waved a wand and we were Intelligent and Free-willed, but I do believe that he facilitated our ability to be both as it increases what he posesses too..

That is why I believe God would be against Dogma and Blind Faith, it stifles the independant thought and experimentation that helps all of us along our journey through existence..

*I realize I referred to God as he several times, and that doesn't seem consistent with my beliefs. blame it on cultural conditioning and ease of writing..

[Fenris]

*I realize I referred to God as he several times, and that doesn't seem consistent with my beliefs. blame it on cultural conditioning and ease of writing..

Ah that then is the probable origin of you stating since "God" provided us with free will, which is why I asked as it seemed at odds with the rest of what you said about your beliefs

A part of this post also seems slightly contradictory, here you state.....

Imagine if you will the first creatures to devolop some intelligence and sense of self. When they die God recieves a small portion of that and becomes aware of itself.

Yet priviously you stated I believe that after you die your "soul" for lack of a better term splits into two parts. The first part, which is the basic life energy that everyone posesses, is reabsorbed by "God" or whatever you feel comfortable calling the Divine Force..

The second part, which consists of our memories and personalities and whatever makes each one of us uniquely us, travels to what some would term the Afterlife..

If its the soul energy that gets reabsorbed whilst the rest goes on to some 'afterlife' how then can 'god' be recieving intelligence from that process as surely that would be part of the personality (Which you state you believe does the afterlife thang) rather than part of the 'basic life energy (Which you have as the portion being reabsorbed)?

[Falco Rex]

It's not really at odds with the statement, I just didn't go into the concept deep enough. Sorry, lazy typing..

If you read my first post in the Reincarnation thread(At least I think that's the one) you'll see that I said I believe that your basic life energy you use during your life is bound to absorb some of your thoughts and intelligence. The fact that the record of those thoughts is there, doesn't make that "You". You as a soul with personality and sentience has moved on to wherever, you've merely left parts of your intelligence behind..

God, as a living being who absorbs the energy you leave has the ability to assimilate the information that may be imprinted on this energy for Him/Her/Itself..

I like the concept of the Akashic Record now that you've explained it, and I'll probably do some reading on the subject..

[Chauncy]

If you read my first post in the Reincarnation thread(At least I think that's the one) you'll see that I said I believe that your basic life energy you use during your life is bound to absorb some of your thoughts and intelligence

I'm not sure I catch your drift on the difference between "your basic life energy" and "your thoughts and intelligence".

An elaboration on this idea would allow me to offer into proper discussion is all.

[Falco Rex]

My belief is fairly simple on this one. Every thing that has life has energy or the potential for energy within it..Hence, basic life energy.

However, every being that can think builds up a record of thoughts and emotions and memories, etc. This is a far more complex thing than just "Being."

So I believe the soul is dualistic in nature. So you have your Undersoul, which is basically just the energy needed to be alive, and you have your Oversoul which is everything that makes you uniquely yourself.

While the Undersoul is static and unchanging, the Oversoul grows as you do through your entire existance...

I hope that helped explain it a little..

[Fenris]

So your edging back toward having the part that gets reabsorbed as having no inteligence? Or are you now saying that the inteligence part is also absorbed? I'm getting kind of Fuzzy about what you actualy believe on that, you seem to be saying two contradictory things?

[Falco Rex]

To elaborate a bit..I believe that the part of your soul that gets reabsorbed carries an imprint of your intelligence and memories but that it's not intelligent or sentient on it's own..

The other half of the soul; the one that moves on to wherever it may go; is the real you in a sense. It has your intelligence and memories too; but more importantly it's made up of your sentience and will-power..

It's the difference between a copy and the original basically..

[Chauncy]

While the Undersoul is static and unchanging, the Oversoul grows as you do through your entire existance...

I dig what your saying now Falco. I guess I interpret this issue as the "Undersoul" is what you are born with, it is a clear slate, pure and unadulterated. Through life experience this clean slate is impressed apon and changes to what you refer to as an "Oversoul".

Where as I view these two things as very much the same thing. Undersoul being the initial ingredient and the Oversoul being the final product after processing through life's influence.

So in my view the soul is the soul as in its singularity. In death this singular entity continues in its energy form.

Would your idea of the soul be Tinistic in nature, the Undersoul, Oversoul and the body?

[Falco Rex]

Yes, that's basically what I believe. However I don't view the undersoul as being a clean slate. Or any slate, really. I think of it as merely life force, with no good or bad attached to it. It's the oversoul where things like morality and higher or lack thereof take place, independantly and yet symbiotically with the undersoul and body..