Is it all in your head?

[+Link of Hyrule]

I woulds have thought so, he appears to have no knowledge of the points raised

fullywired

That's not the question I asked, FW. I didn't ask whether he knew about them, I asked whether the writings of Paul et al, being aimed at helping the churches lead lives dedicated to Chrsit, required references to the actions of Jesus' life.

edit: As far as I can tell, they don't - particularly if we consider the possibility that it was "taken as read" that the churches already had (at the least) an oral tradition of the teachings of Jesus

Edited January 29, 2010 by Paranoid Android

[Karlis]

The...Pauline letters...are so completely silent concerning the events that were later recorded in the gospels as to suggest that these events were not known to Paul, who, however, could not have been ignorant of them if they had really occurred. These letters have no allusion to the parents of Jesus, let alone to the virgin birth. They never refer to a place of birth (for example, by calling him 'of Nazareth'). They give no indication of the time or place of his earthly existence. They do not refer to his trial before a Roman official, nor to Jerusalem as the place of execution. They mention neither John the Baptist, nor Judas, nor Peter's denial of his master. (They do, of course, mention Peter, but do not imply that he, any more than Paul himself, had known Jesus while he had been alive.)

These letters also fail to mention any miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, a particularly striking omission, since, according to the gospels, he worked so many...

The Historical Evidence for Jesus G.A. Wells

Fullywired, Paul during his years of travel established many congregations. Most of Paul’s writings are addressed to these *established* congregations aka churches.

As I see it, Paul’s letters to the churches he founded contain encouragement towards living a “correct” life-style, and admonishments against wrong ways of living. Where necessary, Paul argued and explained doctrine to these people, and through his writings fought against false teachers who came into these congregations.

Also remember that for much of the time Luke traveled with Paul. Luke recorded a lot of what we know about the life of Jesus. Possibly Luke passed information about the life of Jesus to the congregations when he was there with Paul – but that’s only my speculation.

Keeping the above in mind I don’t see why it seems strange that Paul did not mention details of the life of Jesus in his letters, since that was not the purpose of his writing.

Just a few thoughts,

Karlis

[fullywired]

Fullywired, Paul during his years of travel established many congregations. Most of Paul's writings are addressed to these *established* congregations aka churches.

As I see it, Paul's letters to the churches he founded contain encouragement towards living a "correct" life-style, and admonishments against wrong ways of living. Where necessary, Paul argued and explained doctrine to these people, and through his writings fought against false teachers who came into these congregations.

Also remember that for much of the time Luke traveled with Paul. Luke recorded a lot of what we know about the life of Jesus. Possibly Luke passed information about the life of Jesus to the congregations when he was there with Paul – but that's only my speculation.

Keeping the above in mind I don't see why it seems strange that Paul did not mention details of the life of Jesus in his letters, since that was not the purpose of his writing.

Just a few thoughts,

Karlis

"It has been claimed that Luke was a travelling companion of Paul. However, the case against this claim is compelling."

The following is an elaboration for the above quotation given as a footnote in the book,

"Irenaeus (ca. 140-202 CE), the Muratorian Canon (ca. 200 CE), Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE), Tertullian (150-220 CE), Origen (184-254 CE), and Jerome (347-420 CE) all assume that Luke was the companion and colleague of Paul and the author of both Luke and Acts. However, it is difficult to reconcile the inconsistencies between Paul's letters and Luke's account of Paul in the Acts of the Apostles. It would appear that the author of Luke/Acts did not actually know Paul firsthand, but in Acts he placed him centrally in the development of early Christianity. Paul's letters are not mentioned in Acts. This problem and others are discussed in Leander E. Keck and J. Louis Martyn, eds., Studies in Luke-Acts (Philadelphia, 1980). For a detailed analysis of Luke's theology, see Hans Conzelmann, The Theology of St. Luke, trans. G. Buswell (New York, 1961)." [4]

In conclusion, there is hardly any reliable evidence at all to indicate that Luke was Paul's companion. In fact, the question of Luke-Paul relationship is totally moot when there was not even a Luke to begin with as we have mentioned.

From "Toward Understanding the New Testament,"

Edited January 29, 2010 by fullywired

[Karlis]

"It has been claimed that Luke was a travelling companion of Paul. However, the case against this claim is compelling."

~~~ ...

In conclusion, there is hardly any reliable evidence at all to indicate that Luke was Paul's companion. In fact, the question of Luke-Paul relationship is totally moot when there was not even a Luke to begin with as we have mentioned.

From "Toward Understanding the New Testament,"

Ok Fullywired, delete my remarks about Luke and Paul; that was just a cursory remark; an afterthought.

Simply consider the rest of what I wrote.

Cheers,

Karlis

[Mbyte]

So Religion. All in your head or something real and tangible?

Religious stories - wherever and whichever religion they come from are very good fairy tales but why believe in them? Why is it ok to believe in them and not ok to believe in Santa Claus over the age of 10 years old? And whats the difference anyway?

IMO we don't need to believe but other people want us to so that they can control our reactions and get what they want.

Define truth. Let's say I've convinced myself I'm the new messiah and have convinced people to follow me, sign over all their belongings to me, and join my cult......does that make it true? Am I the real messiah or is it all in my head?

A real messiah wouldn't tell the people to follow themselves and wouldn't tell the people to sign their belongings to him. A real messiah would lead by example and try and show the people a better way of life, in turn the people would view their belongings as less valuable. Heh, the real messiah wouldn't brag or promote that he is the is the real messiah. This is why real holy men give away their things, they don't find them valuable; you don't sacrafice for religion you only gain. Of course it's totally up to the person to follow. Most importantly a real messiah doesn't force anyone to do anything, karma does that for him.

There is one major diffrence between santa clause and religion. Religion was origionally a science to show people the path to happiness and fullfillment; like everything in this world it can be used to control people. Santa Clause is merely an imagionary fib to satisfy the rampant imaginaition of a child.

Napoleon Bonaparte: Relgion is merely to keep the poor from killing the rich.

That statement viewed from a materialistic perspective: Religion is merely a delusional tool to keep the poor from taking and killing the rich men who have taken their wealth. On the other hand the quote makes perfect sense from a spiritual point of view as well. The poor realise that materialistic things aren't important and they let the rich delude themselves with material objects. Both sides are happy but which side is deluding themselves? If you have a materialistic point of view, you probably know you are deluding yourself (as in this is the best way i can live life sense it's pointless anyway) and you think the people who follow religion are deluding themselves entirely (in a magical kingdom full of flying unicorns compared to evolution and causality) A spiritualist thinks a meterialistic person are ignorant and that the spiritualists are not deluding themselves in fact there is no rich or poor. Anyway, Karma in the end prevails in this situation as in all situations. The people who aren't happy or fullfilled are the ones deluding themselves. Karma is the same as causality except while causailty excludes emotions and feeling karma includes the entirty of the human entity. This means when a person isen't happy they are miserable and thus they will realise that they should be happy, thus they persue happiness. Funnily enough.. it is all in your head. If your deluded or non deluded, it is all in your head. That is the Truth.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Mbyte

[fullywired]

That's not the question I asked, FW. I didn't ask whether he knew about them, I asked whether the writings of Paul et al, being aimed at helping the churches lead lives dedicated to Chrsit, required references to the actions of Jesus' life.

edit: As far as I can tell, they don't - particularly if we consider the possibility that it was "taken as read" that the churches already had (at the least) an oral tradition of the teachings of Jesus

Paul was about converting people and I think he would have used the stories about Jesus to help gain more converts .Even the churches today still preach "the virgin birth, the miracles, the crucifixion, the resurecction.If you omit these from your preaching there is nothing left. Paul knew nothing of these stories because they hadn't been written yet

to answer you .Yes the writings of Paul are required to mention the actions of Jesus ,just as the preachers of today (and I suspect your own bible classes do)

fullywired

[MARAB0D]

Paul was about converting people and I think he would have used the stories about Jesus to help gain more converts .Even the churches today still preach "the virgin birth, the miracles, the crucifixion, the resurecction.If you omit these from your preaching there is nothing left. Paul knew nothing of these stories because they hadn't been written yet

to answer you .Yes the writings of Paul are required to mention the actions of Jesus ,just as the preachers of today (and I suspect your own bible classes do)

fullywired

But... if we listen to those who says Luke was following Paul and recording... then cannot it be that the Gospels were dictated by Paul basing on his vision???

This would've been a surprise-surprise! Maybe the Revelation too? Those who think the Gospels were first written in the 1st century AD, must LOVE this hypothesis.

[Godsnmbr1]

One of my very first memories of you coming on here was you saying you had never read it. And I went back to early posts, and sure enough, right on December 2005, approximately six weeks after you joined UM -

Hahahhaha! Ohhhh man, that's classic. And then the responses you got--WOW! You ladies need help if that's how you respond to correction.

WOW. I'm speechless. PA, way to go man. You made their true colors shine bright and clear.

Ha!

[Bill Hill]

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.

er not sure I got my point across, so I'll say it again.

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.

Our pain yes we do.

where's that piano coming from?

[Beckys_Mom]

a thread here is NOTHING compared to a day of students who tell you to "**** off", or "Shove your **** up your ***" just because you ask them to open a text book, day in-day out, lol).

With those students that tell you to fock off or shove your **** up your a**.........all because you ask them to open a text book.....well you need to put your foot down PA>. for when any teacher gets that abuse.. then they need to take control and lay some kind of order..besides there is no report button for you to hit LOL...so you have to do it yourself and (I hate to say this but)...grow a back bone and dont stand for it

This is why I couldnt be a teacher of any kind...I would loose the rag in no time...

When anyone uses mean nasty insults non stop...I believe they have had a bad upbringing and brainless lol...some of those are a lot older and should have more sense...but it tells me they were always a nasty person...nothing can help them

But then there is an ignore function...sadly in real life when you are in a room full of nasty lil so and so's...no ignore function LOL...this is why you need to say - YO SETTLE DOWN OR I'LL SEND YOUR AS* OUT OF HERE

If they have learning disorders...then you need to find other ways to handle them

Never in my life have I ever spoke back to a teacher in class..........If I ever came home saying I got slapped or was punished...my dad used to slap me, send me to my room and say - you didnt get it for nothing.........now schools have went down hill.... you cant really punish a student like they used to...

PS Sorry for making it out before hand as creepy... maybe that was too strong... so i take that back..anyhoo its dropped now...but sorry for looking at it that way...

Edited January 31, 2010 by Beckys_Mom

[mklsgl]

When it comes to the historicity of jesus, a lot of peoople(myself included) sometimes get bogged down in the dates of the earliest (still existing from the time of writing) biblical writings.

These were almost certainly pauls letters written about 20 years after the death of jesus. There is still considerable academic debate about gospel dates and the possible early version of a gospel of matthew used by essenes(jewish christians) in very early times.

But there is a lot of post jesus history which is factually rcorded and indisputable. It is incredible, and illogical, to believe that a non existent man caused the following historical events well within a living lifetime of his supposed non existence.

17 years after the death of christ the word christian(as a follower of christ) is recorded for the first time in antioch syria where a christian church is already established.

18-19 years after his death the COuncil of jerusalem is established. This is the first christian council, where apostles and presbyters write doctrine on things like circumcision and dietary laws.

19 years after his death, paul writes his first historically accepted letter about christianity to an existing christian church (thessalonians) this is followed over the next few years by similar documents to other existing christian churches. At the same time the emperor claudius in rome issues a decree that all christians are expelled from rome.

Now, how on earth, in less than 20 years, does a non existent personage acrue a set of followers so; numerous, wide spread, and influential, that a roman emperor feels the need to expell them all from the most powerful city in the world?

25 years after the death of jesus, Peter travels to rome, where his leadership of the christian church in rome establishes the tradition of the papacy.

34 years after the death of jesus, Emperor Nero accuses christians of setting fire to Rome.

All of these easily historically verifiable events are part of an established chronology and set of linkages, which tie, not just jesus, but his very early followers,(well before the first proven gospels) into the fabric of history, rather than myth.

It takes extreme disbelief and almost conspiracy level logic, given these, and many similar facts,to think that jesus was not a real character, surrounded by, and embedded in, the real history and people of the time.

The Essenes were certainly not Jewish Christians. Where do you get this misinformation? They were pure, fundamentalist Jews.

[MARAB0D]

The Essenes were certainly not Jewish Christians. Where do you get this misinformation? They were pure, fundamentalist Jews.

I cannot refer exactly now, but I sure was reading a hypothesis that Essenes became Christians, changed name, as after the mid-1st century AD the name of the sect was never mentioned, while they constituted at least 20% of population of Judaea. The author was pointing also to baptism as one of features of their cult, their centre being in Nazareth (and hence second name of the sect, Nazarenes) and commonality between their doctrine of non-resisting evil by violence and Christian teaching. INRI on the cross can also be seen as Jeshu-Nazarene (Essene) Rex Judaeum. I suspect it was either Schure or Manly Hall where I read it. Most likely when the population of Judaea was enslaved and resettled to Italy by Vespasian and Titus, this was how the former Essenes, first Christians, got to Rome in numbers around 70 AD, as before there was not too many of them at all. Titus, as we know, seized the entire land and gave it to his legionnaires for country properties.

[+Link of Hyrule]

With those students that tell you to fock off or shove your **** up your a**.........all because you ask them to open a text book.....well you need to put your foot down PA>. for when any teacher gets that abuse.. then they need to take control and lay some kind of order..besides there is no report button for you to hit LOL...so you have to do it yourself and (I hate to say this but)...grow a back bone and dont stand for it

This is why I couldnt be a teacher of any kind...I would loose the rag in no time...

In a mainstream school, you're absolutely right. If anyone in a mainstream school said this to a teacher, it would be cause for a suspension. I would tell the student to leave my room immediately and Report to the Head Teacher. If they refused, I'd write a note, give it to another (dependable) student to bring the Head Teacher to the classroom.

In a school for students with behaviour disorders and emotional disturbance it's difference. True, some of them are there simply because of bad parenting. Heck, some of them are only there at all because they were given two choices by the Courts - either Juvenile Lock-up, or this Tutorial facility. Some of them, however, do have legitimate behaviour problems, where the tiniest stimuli will cause them to snap, pick up their desks, and throw it through the classroom's glass windows (if you're lucky, that is - the desk might get thrown directly at another student's head instead, or your own).

These settings are completely different to what you grew up with in school, Geri, so you can't say how you were dealt with in school as a comparison for how this setting works. The behaviours that would cause a suspension in a mainstream school (verbal abuse of teacher) is brushed away with simply a comment about respecting the School Guidelines, and only if it persists is it then acted on. In a mainstream school, if the police turn up to question a student or take away a student, it's the talking point in all the staffrooms for the rest of the week. At this facility, it's simply "Oh, they're here again - so did you enjoy your weekend"?.

You really have no idea what these facilities are like, and the types of students that you get!

PS Sorry for making it out before hand as creepy... maybe that was too strong... so i take that back..anyhoo its dropped now...but sorry for looking at it that way...

I appreciate the apology, and thank you for clarifying this. It's in the past now

~ PA

[Doug1029]

When it comes to the historicity of jesus, a lot of peoople(myself included) sometimes get bogged down in the dates of the earliest (still existing from the time of writing) biblical writings.

Ultimately, one has to decide which authors one is going to accept "on faith" and which ones require substantiation. I have decided to accept Clement of Rome as authentic in spite of the fact that his writings were, at one time, considered part of the canon. Clement died in 99 AD, so anything that can be legitimately attributed to him, dates from before that date. Clement's Letter to the Ephesians is believed to have been written in 96 AD. In it he refers to Paul's letters. That places them before 96 AD.

At this time, I have not established whether Paul actually lived or whether the letters we say are his might have been written by somebody else. At least one refers to events in the 4th century, so it is either a forgery or a redaction. The others? More work needed.

St. Paul MIGHT have been Appolonius of Tyana. They were remarkably similar and they traveled to the same places in Asia Minor. Appolonius had a disciple named Thomas who went to India; the biblical Thomas went to India. Hmmm.

According to Christian tradition, St. Paul was crucified in 65 AD. If so, that places his writings before 65 AD.

These were almost certainly pauls letters written about 20 years after the death of jesus.

If Paul was a real person and was executed in 65 AD and if the partial eclipse of 33 AD marked Jesus' crucifixion, then we are within 32 years. But if Paul was somebody else, or just a figment of a story-teller's imagination, or if one of the other assumptions concerning him are wrong, then we have no evidence for Paul, and thus, no evidence for Jesus.

There is still considerable academic debate about gospel dates and the possible early version of a gospel of matthew used by essenes(jewish christians) in very early times.

Essenes = Jewish Christians? Seems to me there was a term for Jewish Christians, but it wasn't Essenes. If memory serves, the Essene tradition goes back to around 150 BC.

Now, how on earth, in less than 20 years, does a non existent personage acrue a set of followers so; numerous, wide spread, and influential, that a roman emperor feels the need to expell them all from the most powerful city in the world?

Consider this a hypothesis still to be tested: The picture that is coming into focus for me is that many of the protoypes for events associated with the Jesus story occurred from 41 AD to 132 AD. Jesus supposedly was crucified in 33 AD; thus, most of the details of Jesus' life are add-ons that accreted around the original nuclear story.

So, if most of the story is fiction, what's left? If there is anything left, there could have been a historical Jesus. But if so, the details of his existence are mostly lost.

25 years after the death of jesus, Peter travels to rome, where his leadership of the christian church in rome establishes the tradition of the papacy.

The ultimate source for this has to be Peter or Paul, two individuals who may have been fictions, as well. How do you establish their existence?

It seems to me that you are using the writings of Paul to make the assumption that Paul existed; then you use that assumption to further assume that if Paul existed, then the writings must be authentic. You then use the spin-off from this circular reasoning process to establish Jesus. Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

34 years after the death of jesus, Emperor Nero accuses christians of setting fire to Rome.

We know that Christians existed by 64 AD. But that doesn't mean that Jesus did, or that the story in the gospels is based on anything other than rumors.

Did Jesus really exist? Did the Apostles really exist? I don't know. What I want to know is what does the available evidence say?

So much hype has been put out by both sides, that a truth seeker cannot trust anybody's conclusions. The only way to learn what the evidence says is to dig it up and analyze it yourself. That is what I am doing. Just saying that there is evidence and then not saying what it is, does not help. Just saying that Jesus is (or is not) historical, does not help. I need the observations and the reasoning.

Like a judge in a criminal trial, I will never know what really happened. All I can do is rule on the evidence. I am still trying to compile that evidence.

Doug

[mklsgl]

I cannot refer exactly now, but I sure was reading a hypothesis that Essenes became Christians, changed name, as after the mid-1st century AD the name of the sect was never mentioned, while they constituted at least 20% of population of Judaea. The author was pointing also to baptism as one of features of their cult, their centre being in Nazareth (and hence second name of the sect, Nazarenes) and commonality between their doctrine of non-resisting evil by violence and Christian teaching. INRI on the cross can also be seen as Jeshu-Nazarene (Essene) Rex Judaeum. I suspect it was either Schure or Manly Hall where I read it. Most likely when the population of Judaea was enslaved and resettled to Italy by Vespasian and Titus, this was how the former Essenes, first Christians, got to Rome in numbers around 70 AD, as before there was not too many of them at all. Titus, as we know, seized the entire land and gave it to his legionnaires for country properties.

Perhaps this will add to the discussion.

The Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls

What does the discovery of these scrolls reveal about first century Judaism and the roots of Christianity?

L. Michael White:

Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

PAGANISM IN THE ANCIENT WORLD

As you leave Jerusalem and go to the south and to the east, toward the Dead Sea, the terrain changes rapidly and starkly. You move off gradually from [the] ... rolling hillside, through the ravines, and it becomes stark and desolate. It's dry. It's arid. It's rocky, and it's rough. And all of a sudden, within a span of only about thirteen miles, the entire terrain drops out in front of you as you go from roughly 3400 feet above sea level at Jerusalem, to nearly 1400 feet below sea level at the surface of the Dead Sea. It is in that rugged cliff face, on the banks of the Dead Sea, in this arid, desolate climate, that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at the site known as Khirbet Qumran. The Scrolls were discovered, according to the story that, now, many people know, of a shepherd boy wandering along with his flocks and, as boys tend to do, throwing rocks in a cave. So the story goes that he heard a crack in one, went in to investigate and found a ceramic pot with what appeared to be pages inside. Those were then taken out and eventually found their way onto the market, and were only later rediscovered and deciphered as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Subsequent to that first discovery, eleven different caves have been found at Qumran. And new discoveries are expected even now. Among the caves were found, then, thousand of fragments of manuscripts and quite a number of whole, or mostly complete, manuscripts in scrolls stored in these jars. Among the cache of scrolls that we now call the Dead Sea Scrolls, are three distinct types of material. First, we have a collection of copies of the actual books of the Hebrew Scriptures. These people were copyists. They were preserving the texts of the Bible itself. Secondly, there were commentaries on these biblical texts. But these commentaries also show their own interpretation of what would happen. This is where we begin to get some of the insights into the way the Essenes at Qumran believed, because of the way they interpret the prophecies of Isaiah, or the prophesies of Habakkuk as well as the way they read the Torah, itself. So among the scrolls, then, we have a complete set of almost all the biblical books, and commentaries on many of them. "The Isaiah Scroll" is one of the most famous of the biblical manuscripts. And the commentaries on Isaiah is also very important for our understanding of Jewish interpretation of Scripture in this period.

The third major type of material found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, though, in some ways is the most interesting insight into the life of the community that lived there, because this material includes their own sectarian writings, that is, their rules of life ... their prayer book. Included then, is the book of the rule of the community or sometimes called "The Manual of Discipline", which talks about how one goes about getting into the community. The rules for someone who wants to be pure and a part of the elect community. We also have something called "The War Scroll" and the War Scroll seems to be their own battle plan for the war that will occur at the end of the present evil age. And so this is something that really is real in their mind ... that this coming end of the age will be a cataclysmic event in their view. Also was found something called "The Copper Scroll". Quite literally, with the letters incised, in Hebrew, into soft, burnished copper. And the contents of the Copper Scroll are still a source of great interest among many people, because people think it may be a treasure map of their own holdings.

Who were the Essenes?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are usually thought to have been produced by a group known as the Essenes. And the Essenes are a group that literally abandoned Jerusalem, it seems, in protest... against the way the Temple was being run. So here's a group that went out in the desert to prepare the way of the Lord, following the commands, as they saw it, of the prophet Isaiah. And they go to the desert to get away from what they see to be the worldliness of Jerusalem and the worldliness of the Temple. Now the Essenes aren't a new group in Jesus' day. They too, had been around for a hundred years at that point in time. But it would appear that the reign of Herod, and probably even more so, the reign of his sons and the Roman Procurators, probably stimulated a new phase of life of the Essene community, rising as a growing protest against Roman rule and worldliness.

You said they were preparing the way for the Lord. What exactly were the Essenes preparing for in their mind?

The Essenes are what we might best call an apocalyptic sect of Judaism. An apocalyptic sect is one that thinks of itself as, first of all, the true form of their religion. In fact, that's part of their terminology. Again, using the prophet Isaiah, they think of themselves as the righteous remnant ... the chosen ones ... the elect. But they're also standing over against the mainstream ... most of Jewish life, and especially everything going on at Jerusalem. So they're sectarian. They're separatists. They're people who move away.

The basis for that understanding is their reading of Scripture. They interpret Scripture, especially the prophets, Isaiah, the Torah itself, to suggest that the course of Judaism is going through a profound change. "Far too many people are becoming worldly," they would have said. The end, as they understood it, of the present evil age is moving upon them inexorably. And they want to be on the right side when it comes. In their understanding, there will come a day when the Lord revisits the Earth with power. And in the process establishes a new kingdom for Judaism. It will be like the kingdom of David and Solomon. A return to the golden age mentality. And this is part of that apocalyptic mind set.

...The Dead Sea Scrolls show us a lot about the beliefs of the Essenes. Now, we typically think of this language of the coming kingdom as reflecting a belief in the end of the world ... as somehow coming upon them or us soon. But in fact, that's not exactly what they thought. They use language like "the end" or "the last things" or "the last days", but what they mean is the present evil age is coming to an end. Now this "end time" language is what we typically call "the eschaton" or "eschatology" ... thinking about the end. But in Jewish eschatology of this period, what they usually seem to be talking about is an end of a present evil age and a coming new glorious age ... a new kingdom.

The Essenes had an apocalyptic point of view, and they believed in a new kingdom of some kind coming; would this necessarily bring a new Messiah with it?

The idea that the coming kingdom is always to be accompanied by a Messianic figure is not entirely accurate for Judaism in this period. We hear of some groups, for example, who expect the coming change, but never mention a Messiah, or a Messianic figure at all, either as a deliverer figure, or as some sort of heavenly agent. So some forms of Judaism in this period don't ever talk about a Messiah. At Qumran, on the other hand, among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we hear not of just one Messiah, but at least two Messiahs. Some of their writings talk about a Messiah of David that is a kind of kingly figure who will come to lead the war. But there's also a Messiah of Aaron, a priestly figure, who will come to restore the Temple at Jerusalem to its proper purity and worship of God. In addition to these two major Messianic figures, we also hear of a prophet figure.

And in terms of the quest for the historical Jesus, what does the story of the Essenes tell us? What light does it cast on his life and times?

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.

Shaye I.D. Cohen:

Samuel Ungerleider Professor of Judaic Studies and Professor of Religious Studies Brown University

Who were the Essenes?

A good example of a group which separated itself from society at large and defined itself against the Temple in Jerusalem are the Essenes, or perhaps you might say, the people of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Dead Sea community, whom most scholars regard as Essenes. Here is a group of people who left Jerusalem, went to live in the wilderness, to live by themselves, totally isolated from other Jews, from the rest of the community, and as their Scrolls reveal, saw themselves as the new sacred community, waiting for the time, when ... they imagine that the Temple would be reconstituted and reconstructed and rebuilt.... and a new and better priestly group would take over the Temple in Jerusalem. And, in the meantime, while the wicked priests are still off in Jerusalem, following the wrong calendar, following the wrong purity rules and officiating improperly before the Lord, in the meantime, pure purity and true holiness resided only among themselves, in their own community, off near the Dead Sea.... The community itself was a surrogate temple....

The manuscripts that we call the Dead Sea Scrolls are a wide variety of texts. Some of these texts are hardly sectarian texts. These are texts that all Jews would have had, all Jews would have read. For example, the largest single category of Dead Sea text or Qumran Scrolls are text you and I call Biblical. No one is going to say the Book of Genesis was a Qumran document because fragments of the Book of Genesis were found in the Qumran scrolls.... We have to realize then that the Qumran scrolls contain a wide variety of text and we are not always able to distinguish clearly those texts which they simply read from those texts, which they actually wrote.

WAR SCROLL

What was their expectation of what would happen?

The Qumran Scrolls reveal a variety of scenarios for the end of days. The most conspicuous one or the best known one perhaps, is the scroll called the War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Where the Sons of Light, of course, is short-[hand]... for themselves. The group itself clearly consists of the Sons of Light... the Sons of Darkness are everybody else, apparently - Jews, gentiles, priests, plain people, all alike, lumped together, under the category of the Sons of Darkness, and at some point there will be a major battle, a cataclysmic struggle, not just between people, not just between the bad guys and the good guys, as we would say in America, but also between cosmic forces, the cosmic forces of evil and the cosmic forces of good. And, in this gigantic struggle, the angels will fight along side the Sons of Light, against the Sons of Darkness and the forces of evil. And, needless to say, this will end with a victory for the Sons of Light.... What will happen after the victory, the Scroll does not clearly spell out as carefully as or clearly as we might have liked. Other scrolls have different scenarios or different pictures, which downplay or minimize this battle aspect and play up instead other aspects.

COMMUNITY RULE

What does the book or scroll of Community Rules tell us about the way that people of this community actually lived their lives?

The Manual of Discipline is a text that envisions a community living in almost total isolation, a community that is self-contained, that is governed very strictly by a Board of Governors, or a series of overlapping authorities, governing community in which everybody owes obedience to their superiors. There's an oath of entry; it is a very much monastic community, for want of the better word, a community with little or no private property. That point is debated in the text but it seems at least that you surrendered if not all, then at least some of your property to the kind of community pot; in turn, then, the community would look out for you and look after you. So, it is very much a community where the individual has somehow been merged into a communal group.... Like a monastic community, there is no private property and, most striking of all, there are no women, and as a result, there are few children. It is a group almost exclusively consisting of adult males, who are to spend their life following the rules of the group and acting out the theological principles and beliefs of the group....

SIGNIFICANCE OF SCROLLS

[What is the significance of the Qumran Scrolls?]

Even before the Qumran Scrolls were discovered, we knew that Judaism in the time of Jesus was a very diverse phenomena. After all, the Jewish historian Josephus gives us the names of Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. We know from the New Testament of a group called Herodians - what they are exactly, we don't know, but there they are. Rabbinic texts add the names of yet other groups and then once the war comes around, in the year 66, we have the names of a whole slew of other groups.... Plus, we have a very wide ranging rich literature from this period which is impossible to imagine all coming from a single source, or all coming from a single school or a single class. The result was, even before the Qumran Scrolls were discovered, we knew or sensed that Judaism in the 1st century of our era was a very rich and varied phenomena. What the Qumran Scrolls do is to demonstrate clearly and unambiguously the truth of that which we always somehow felt or intuited....

The Qumran Scrolls show us the existence of a sect, a group that has separated itself from society at large, a group that defines itself against the Temple, the single central institution of Judaism..., and sees itself as the repository of everything that is sacred and true and sees all other Jews out there, including the priests, as wrong at best and at worst, irredeemably wicked. That is something which we had never previously seen....

The Qumran Scrolls also reveal a whole range of new books which we previously had not known, or had known about only in fragments or only in quotations, or perhaps in corrupted versions. We now have the original text. We have now a rich library of text showing that diversity was even greater than we had ever imagined and the range of possibilities for 1st century Judaism was far bigger than any of us had ever suspected.

More about the Dead Sea Scrolls: an excerpt from Hershel Shanks' forthcoming book The Mystery and Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls; translations of the Community Rule and the War Scroll, with commentary by Michael Wise; and Scrolls from the Dead Sea, an on-line exibit of the scrolls from the Library of Congress.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/essenes.html

[MARAB0D]

Michael - this article actually does not add too much. For start the dead sea scrolls - they are not anyhow attributed to the Essenes, they are BELIEVED to be left by the Essenes. And certainly they belonged not to all Essenes but to some sect within them which was living in the desert, as Essenes were too numerous for the history to miss the moment when suddenly 20% of Jews abandon cities and settle in the desert. There is no food in the desert. I mean we are all guessing to a degree, and the sources we use are guessing too.

[Beckys_Mom]

You really have no idea what these facilities are like, and the types of students that you get!

PA I have an idea on the kind of students you speak of..

In St Marys JHS.. we had students that came directly from St Patricks juvie home..

They were sent to St Marys in the hope that some sort of discipline would settle them

I used to witness girls from the juvie home set the toilets on fire...beat up a teacher and a couple brought knives to school.... These students were shipped off out of St Marys fast.. The nuns and the principle couldn't do any more to help them.. Some they helped ok... and managed to make some want to learn and behave... others the really bad ones...no hopers..they were sent packing

The students that were worth saving..were the students that did have real learning difficulties and the nuns understood their problems and St Marys had a facility for these students.. and private tutors were there to help them further with learning and a couple of councillors there to talk

The rest? Bad parenting the lot of them..I blame the parents on that..goodness knows I grew up with so many..seen parents that couldnt give a toss and the sec the cops show up at their door, their kids were joy riding or up to no good..the parents deny all responsibility.. Tony Blair had the right idea...PUNISH the parents too I tell ya...a few Juvies came on Sky News and reported they would hate the thoughts of their parents being punished by the law over their behavoiur..

St Marys was a strict school..we wern't allowed to wear make up.. jewellery , nails not to be seen painted..and skirts had to be below the knee lol..they didn't tolerate bad manners and were strict with the lessons

The behaviours that would cause a suspension in a mainstream school (verbal abuse of teacher) is brushed away with simply a comment about respecting the School Guidelines

So discipline is not allowed? Every school and its students need some sort of discipline

I'll tell you one thing.. if any of them joined the army.. the army wouldnt give a toss...

PA without discipline.. its no wonder students today think they can do what they like

When I say discipline..I dont mean slap them.. (allthough it wouldnt hurt lol)..I mean other methods

The only students that deserve real support as far as I am concerned, are those that do have real learning issues PA..for its not their fault... the rest.. ship em out to foook lol

Edited February 1, 2010 by Beckys_Mom

[+Link of Hyrule]

PA I have an idea on the kind of students you speak of..

In St Marys JHS.. we had students that came directly from St Patricks juvie home..

.....

So discipline is not allowed? Every school and its students need some sort of discipline

So perhaps you do know a little about the students we deal with. Even if it is just bad parenting, conventional methods of dealing with these students don't work, because they don't respect the authority of the teacher to begin with (that's a learned behaviour, which was never instilled into them by parents). This requires a different approach. Not a point of "no discipline", but it is a lot more relaxed than in a mainstream class. In a mainstream class, if a student tells you to **** off, it's immediately stomped on, the student is sent out to deal with consequences (likely a suspension). Here, it's not "ignored", but unless the behaviour continues, telling them that they are acting inappropriately and need to calm down is the first step. Heading straight down the hardline stance of a mainstream school won't work. It will just cause further oppositional behaviour, and escalating a calm incident into a real problematic issue.

These kids work differently to normal students and thus they require different methods.

The only students that deserve real support as far as I am concerned, are those that do have real learning issues PA..for its not their fault... the rest.. ship em out to foook lol

I can see your point. Helping students with legitimate learning issues is something that they need. However, in Australia every child is guaranteed the chance at an education. No matter how naughty a student is due to bad parenting, they legally must be offered the opportunity to learn, even if they don't give a stuff. Even if they spend 90% of their time jigging and going to the beach instead of coming to school, they must still have a place in a learning institution. That's the Law over here.

~ Regards, PA

[Mr Walker]

The Essenes were certainly not Jewish Christians. Where do you get this misinformation? They were pure, fundamentalist Jews.

After the death of christ,local jewish followers of christ, were refered to in documentation as essenes Maybe they were converts from original essenes or something different Sources included 3 differnt internet sites i read in relationship to early christian sects.

If i have mistook the name i apologise. The point is there was a considerable jewish christian following of christ in the holy land within a decade of his death, and this grew and spread, while eventually being displaced by pauline christianity.

[mklsgl]

Michael - this article actually does not add too much. For start the dead sea scrolls - they are not anyhow attributed to the Essenes, they are BELIEVED to be left by the Essenes. And certainly they belonged not to all Essenes but to some sect within them which was living in the desert, as Essenes were too numerous for the history to miss the moment when suddenly 20% of Jews abandon cities and settle in the desert. There is no food in the desert. I mean we are all guessing to a degree, and the sources we use are guessing too.

Agreed, marabod. One of my former colleagues at UPenn who teaches Jewish Studies and I used to blow through Penn's crappy cafeteria lunch a couple times a week talking about this and he would end those discussions with the same words you posted (in bold italics).

I've always been fascinated by ancient cultures but I never ventured into that discipline, academically. My area of concentration is modern and postmodern culture.

Thanks marabod.

[MARAB0D]

Agreed, marabod. One of my former colleagues at UPenn who teaches Jewish Studies and I used to blow through Penn's crappy cafeteria lunch a couple times a week talking about this and he would end those discussions with the same words you posted (in bold italics).

I've always been fascinated by ancient cultures but I never ventured into that discipline, academically. My area of concentration is modern and postmodern culture.

Thanks marabod.

I think what happens is that the exact historical moment when Christianity started splitting from early Judaism is not covered by any existing records, and what we have is only later stories of this time. The Jesus story or alleged real Jesus certainly affected Judaism, so some believers admitted Jesus as Messiah (possibly Essenes) while the others remained Judaists but added him on the list of prophets (Ebionites). We subconsciously compare Christian lore with the modern form of Judaism, but neither was existing in those days, what we see now is a result of another 800 years of development of the sect of Pharisees, which in 1st century AD was only one of many despite the strongest one and another 350 years of developing of Christianity. Modern Judaism only appeared in 8th century AD when the Biblical canon and Talmud were completed, and still we know about multiple sects within it even today, some hostile to the modern mainstream to the degree that they were collaborating with the Nazis (Karaims). Given this lack of independent information, we are all reconstructing the picture using the elements we subjectively find as more reliable, so all our reconsctructions have equal right to exist and they all are most likely boiling to some already existing hypotheses. I mean when we argue here, we only put forward yet another subjective version of the event, but the reality always remains hidden.

[Skim Milky]

Is it all in your head.

Yes.

The brain is the hub of existence, through which all stimulus pass, including material, quantum, and spiritual experiences. It is the only avenue through which an experience of the physical world, and an interaction with God, can take place. Still, it's clear that the brain can consciously only interprete a very small percentage of the experiences available in existence. We are very limited as to what we can experience, much less understand. This allows a large percentage of "life" that we cannot know. The possibilities of what my exist in this unexplored arena are vast. I will not pretend to know what dwells there, and therefore cannot omit that which I might find uncomfortable, or improbable.