Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #126 Share Posted January 8, 2010 PA, I'm amazed by your patience and restraint. You must have taught a special ed class at some point. Ah so thats how you got to know him then LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #127 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) Well you just asked Professor Dench a completely different question to the one I asked. What I asked was whether believing in Jesus' existence was a Faith-based proposition. I then clarified that I understood taking supernatural events (eg, virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, son of God) was based on Faith, and asked specifically, "but do we need Faith to even believe he existed at one time". That was the question I asked - I asked for an historical consensus on what most historians thought of this question. You are asking a completely separate question - you want an historical answer on whether Jesus was the son of God. Lol, you're going to get exactly the response you expect - we have no evidence he's the son of God. That takes Faith. It's like emailing an historian where's the historical evidence that Santa has flying reindeer and puts elves to work in his Christmas factories. They'll tell you that this is a story, but there was once a real figure who Santa was based on. Lol, I even copy-pasted the email I sent them and you still have completely missed the boat. No I am afraid I haven't missed the boat...I asked about the same jesus you pour your entire faith into...his existence ... and therefore that is the SAME jesus I don't and cant call an historical figure Now as for what way you worded your emails, is no fault of mine...after all I wasn't to know what exactly you emailed her with...all I was interested in was what I have just said above The ENTIRE time I have been talking about Jesus ...and as for how one views him? Well to sum up GOD...the man that you follow..that was and STILL is the only jesus I was claiming was NOT an historical figure and I know for a fact I am 100 present correct WHY? I have even pasted an article to show you what I mean a number of pages ago..one of which you seem to have sadly missed by a long shot PA LOL - you might remember it, it was titled Jesus was NOT an historical figure but more of a sacred hero....<---I even explained to you in black and in white what that meant................once again you missed it Shame really...for I thought you would be more or less on the ball...either way luvie...that is the same jesus I explained in my email to Emma... After all I am hardly speaking of some guy that might have lived back then and was crucified...I mean come on...goodness knows how many men called jesus were in fact cruified?? still waiting on a replty though..i'll keep checking later ta ta Edited January 8, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug1029 Posted January 8, 2010 #128 Share Posted January 8, 2010 the gospels were written 30 plus years after this so called person Jesus lived, The evidence says 92 to 99 years for Mark/Matthew, up to 108 for Luke and up to 122 for John. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #129 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) The subject of Jesus historicity falls in a large gray zone. There is not enough evidence to conclude that he or the apostles existed. On the other hand, there is not enough evidence to conclude that they didn't exist. But that burden of proof doesn't remotely lay with the non believer... just like god, you can't prove a negative... the burden of proof lays with those that claim he does exist and how you miust not only believe it, but its your only way to heaven.... <--- that is exactly where the burden of proof lays Saying aha but you cant disprove it is silly..its stating the bleeding obvious... no man alive can pull something out of thin air and say - VOLA>. see told ya Not aimed at you but others like you have tried including myself to use that stupid idiot defence - Can you disprove god <---why do we say it? well its our only idiot defence to be honest....and it is pointless........for every single man and woman alive knows that if you cannot feel, hear, touch, smell or see it, then the nearest logical thing to say is - it dont exist..... asking them to disprove that is just stupid and impossible........its not like they are all telling you that you are doomed for believing Sum it up - the only time the burden of proof doesnt lay with the beleiver is when that believer claims - But its just my faith <---when they say that, IMO that more than enough to call it quits and leave it all be...fair enough Edited January 8, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #130 Share Posted January 8, 2010 The evidence says 92 to 99 years for Mark/Matthew, up to 108 for Luke and up to 122 for John. Doug Some evidence points to 50 - 60 years long after jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #131 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Question: Why not take ALL religious questions, including the existence of Jesus, on faith alone? Historical and scientific evidence supports religious traditions poorly, at best. Why not just cast off such sources of truth and just say "I believe what I believe because I believe it."? If PA had of said that in the beginning, then this whole lets email total strangers in other parts of the world carry on wouldn't be going on...but PA wasn't exactly happy with stating - but its just my faith and I see him as an hisorical figure now was he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karlis Posted January 8, 2010 #132 Share Posted January 8, 2010 ~~~ ... ... ... the burden of proof lays with those that claim he does exist ... As I understand it Beckys Mom (please correct me if you feel i am mistaken), your original proposal was that there is no proof a person "Jesus" existed, upon whom Christianity is based.Now as to the following: ... and how you miust not only believe it, but its your only way to heaven.... <--- that is exactly where the burden of proof lays ...This -- bringing in the divinity of such a person -- imo is a straw man argument you have been introducing *after* Paranoid Android posted his questions to the historians.To sum up; your original point was that there was no historical Jesus, as opposed to saint Nick, for whom there is historic evidence. Karlis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #133 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not real... in that case any idiot thing that springs to mind everyone ( the entire population of the earth) must just believe in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #134 Share Posted January 8, 2010 which amounts to about a paragraph and can only say their may of been a man named jesus who was crucified by the Roman's..anything more is not supported by evidence... even if you don't want to do your own research, it helps to understand how and what it means when something is historically valid... That is exactly right and to the point SIS... an historian will say - We cant dismiss that there was no man named jesus that died ect ect... for all we know there were dozens of them... but they aren't talking about the same jesus that PA worships or any christian for that matter I think thats why PA got a bit miffed at my email... for I clearly spoke of the jesus that he and other flock members worship as god Pitty he blanked out the article I had copied and pasted a number of pages back, pointing out the difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 8, 2010 #135 Share Posted January 8, 2010 The evidence says 92 to 99 years for Mark/Matthew, up to 108 for Luke and up to 122 for John. Doug thank you, doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 8, 2010 #136 Share Posted January 8, 2010 That is exactly right and to the point SIS... an historian will say - We cant dismiss that there was no man named jesus that died ect ect... for all we know there were dozens of them... but they aren't talking about the same jesus that PA worships or any christian for that matter I think thats why PA got a bit miffed at my email... for I clearly spoke of the jesus that he and other flock members worship as god Pitty he blanked out the article I had copied and pasted a number of pages back, pointing out the difference... exactly, Sis, historically its supported that their may of been a dude named jesus who was crucified by the romans... that's it who he was, where he came from, is he the same cat in the NT, well that is a grandiose claim with no evidence. one could not conclude a truth value on these type of claims other then by believing/hoping that it is so(faith) ... as there is no evidence conclude with..... the gospels are not evidence of Jesus because they were written 95 years plus after the so called event , from writers that did not know this jesus character, just heard tales and this is evidenced by the gospels themselves they do not agree with each other..... Who was jesus? We really don't know anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #137 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) exactly, Sis, historically its supported that their may of been a dude named jesus who was crucified by the romans... that's it who he was, where he came from, is he the same cat in the NT, well that is a grandiose claim with no evidence. one could not conclude a truth value on these type of claims other then by believing/hoping that it is so(faith) ... as there is no evidence conclude with..... the gospels are not evidence of Jesus because they were written 95 years plus after the so called event , from writers that did not know this jesus character, just heard tales and this is evidenced by the gospels themselves they do not agree with each other..... Who was jesus? We really don't know anything.... The bible is no different from a grimes fairy tale book... built up of mythical characters....something that any kid once read it, will believe in it.. but the kids soon grow out of them and dismiss them...but you still have those that just dont grow out of them... Look at todays world SIS ........Take the Middle east - IE ISRAEL... people killing eachother claiming that they are martyr's for god.. god wants them to kill .......whats the big promise if they do it - They all get to live on in heaven with god NOW.. take the bible Back then they were saying the same kind of things.. killing for god...god wants it...........----------whats the promise_ same thing Wha's the difference sis - Back in the days of the bible, the Jews didnt have nuclear weapons, guns or any bombs....less destruction than it is now My point is.. any idiot that likes the idea of killing, can claim it came from god..they can document it....leave it for many years...whats the bet more people will pick up and read it and beleive it MUST be true? Same with natural disasters sis... they are called natural disasters for a good reason... but man back in the days of the bible, believed god sent them...to wipe sin.......................today man is STILL coming out with the same tripe.... I was once expected to follow a book filled with that nonsense....I call it nonsesnse because if I didnt think so, then I would still be a beleiver Edited January 8, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullywired Posted January 8, 2010 #138 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Fullywired, I suggest that you rethink that statement. Quoting a source does not place the person who quoted a source into "the camp" of that source. Agreed but in this particular case I think the quote was used to strengthen the case for a Historical Jesus ,we all know PA believes in an Historical Jesus fullywired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #139 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Agreed but in this particular case I think the quote was used to strengthen the case for a Historical Jesus ,we all know PA believes in an Historical Jesus fullywired Correct lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted January 8, 2010 #140 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) The bible is no different from a grimes fairy tale book... built up of mythical characters....something that any kid once read it, will believe in it.. but the kids soon grow out of them and dismiss them...but you still have those that just dont grow out of them... Look at todays world SIS ........Take the Middle east - IE ISRAEL... people killing eachother claiming that they are martyr's for god.. god wants them to kill .......whats the big promise if they do it - They all get to live on in heaven with god NOW.. take the bible Back then they were saying the same kind of things.. killing for god...god wants it...........----------whats the promise_ same thing Wha's the difference sis - Back in the days of the bible, the Jews didnt have nuclear weapons, guns or any bombs....less destruction than it is now My point is.. any idiot that likes the idea of killing, can claim it came from god..they can document it....leave it for many years...whats the bet more people will pick up and read it and beleive it MUST be true? Same with natural disasters sis... they are called natural disasters for a good reason... but man back in the days of the bible, believed god sent them...to wipe sin.......................today man is STILL coming out with the same tripe....I was once expected to follow a book filled with that nonsense....I call it nonsesnse because if I didnt think so, then I would still be a beleiver wow, wow, wow...this was a most excellent post. This is EXACTLY right. Way to go. I post all this damn research and you sum it up in one post, lol. Step aside everyone...a brilliant woman at work. Great thread, and very educational. *wubbles to Sheri and Geri* Edited January 8, 2010 by V... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #141 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) wow, wow, wow...this was a most excellent post. This is EXACTLY right. Way to go. I post all this damn research and you sum it up in one post, lol. yeaa well that's me, I don't get all into it, I always cut things down and sum them up..summing up is what I do best LOL Whereas people like yourself love to get all into the full details that are educational...but remember Im lazy so I just sum it up I thought of it when I watched a documentary ( im a bit of a documentary geek at heart)...Ross Kemp visits GAZA...in the middle east..and I thought...look at those that bang on and on on how it was very necessary for God to intervene due to how bad man was and how bad things were with sin ect ect... I think WTF? they are still the bloody same only this time they have nuclear weapons guns and bombs = more blinking sin and more destruction than ever before.... where is god now? Oh yeaa the martyrs speak on gods behalf - MORE KILLING!! thou shalt not kill/murder is only there as a space filler in holy books wubbles to Sheri and Geri* Geri and Sheri wubbles you too V.. Edited January 8, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted January 8, 2010 #142 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) yeaa well that's me, I don't get all into it, I always cut things down and sum them up..summing up is what I do best LOL Whereas people like yourself love to get all into the full details that are educational...but remember Im lazy so I just sum it up Sits at your feet and learns... I thought of it when I watched a documentary ( im a bit of a documentary geek at heart)...Ross Kemp visits GAZA...in the middle east..and I thought...look at those that bang on and on on how it was very necessary for God to intervene due to how bad man was and how bad things were with sin ect ect... I think WTF? they are still the bloody same only this time they have nuclear weapons guns and bombs = more blinking sin and more destruction than ever before.... where is god now?Oh yeaa the martyrs speak on gods behalf - MORE KILLING!! thou shalt not kill/murder is only there as a space filler in holy books We be doc geeks together. I've got one I'm gonna share with ya...oi Anyways, again, you are exactly right, and people just don't see it. It's like they are freaking desensitized to it all. Rants over-with, lol Geri and Sheri wubbles you too V.. Thank you. ♥ Edited January 8, 2010 by V... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted January 8, 2010 #143 Share Posted January 8, 2010 wow, wow, wow...this was a most excellent post. This is EXACTLY right. Way to go. I post all this damn research and you sum it up in one post, lol. Step aside everyone...a brilliant woman at work. Great thread, and very educational. *wubbles to Sheri and Geri* I agree V... she is brilliant.....makes the rest of look so good.... and funny as heck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #144 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Anyways, again, you are exactly right, and people just don't see it. It's like they are freaking desensitized to it all. I struggle to believe they don't see it, but they do say religion can be blinding LOL.. remember the rose tinted glasses? Its so easy to spot something and live in denial We be doc geeks together. I've got one I'm gonna share with ya...oi Documntaries about the middle east can tend to get you emotional... like the latest one I just watched... The Jews in Israel that kill in the name of God... The Presenter of this documentary - Ross Kemp..paid a visit to this insititute for kids and one little boy who was seated far from the rest that sat around the table..raised his hand to speak...he was not much older than my Becky..4-5yrs old, spoke how the Jews killed his entire family infront of him, then he began to cry.......... ...right before they switched the cameras off, one little girl (approx 7yrs old) raised her hand and spoke on how she had to watch the Jews blow half of her mothers head off and her dads too, her dads brains splattered infront of this child... then after telling her story, she broke down in tears.....its no wonder these kids and others like them want revenge...I broke down just watching it........... ......................and I say - Where does god really come in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #145 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I agree V... she is brilliant.....makes the rest of look so good.... and funny as heck... Well sis like I always say, you need to add the funnies in with posts, otherwise you would just pul your hair out...I noticed you tend to use a lot of humour too, it works great LMAO Thanks sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted January 8, 2010 #146 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I struggle to believe they don't see it, but they do say religion can be blinding LOL.. remember the rose tinted glasses? Its so easy to spot something and live in denial Documntaries about the middle east can tend to get you emotional... like the latest one I just watched... The Jews in Israel that kill in the name of God... The Presenter of this documentary - Ross Kemp..paid a visit to this insititute for kids and one little boy who was seated far from the rest that sat around the table..raised his hand to speak...he was not much older than my Becky..4-5yrs old, spoke how the Jews killed his entire family infront of him, then he began to cry.......... ...right before they switched the cameras off, one little girl (approx 7yrs old) raised her hand and spoke on how she had to watch the Jews blow half of her mothers head off and her dads too, her dads brains splattered infront of this child... then after telling her story, she broke down in tears.....its no wonder these kids and others like them want revenge...I broke down just watching it........... ......................and I say - Where does god really come in? Oh BM. Immediately this song/video came to mind: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godsnmbr1 Posted January 8, 2010 #147 Share Posted January 8, 2010 This is hilarious... Too bad numbers and noise level doesn't = being right, eh? Otherwise you ladies would be set for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #148 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Oh BM. Immediately this song/video came to mind: thanks, does wonders for my PMS stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted January 8, 2010 #149 Share Posted January 8, 2010 thanks, does wonders for my PMS stage Th♥nx, you should give yourself a hand for helping out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted January 8, 2010 #150 Share Posted January 8, 2010 This is hilarious... Too bad numbers and noise level doesn't = being right, eh? Otherwise you ladies would be set for life. know I am right no need to rave about it...thing is.. what do you suppose would make it even MORE hilarious? give up? I think it would be when you actually took part in the discussion FOR ONCE and dried your eyes girly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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