Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
pycomonkey

I want to learn!

45 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

CerridwenoftheFlesh

Sorry but to me it seems no different than people seeing patterns were there aren't any and simply being able to predict using available evidence.

And there are still the physical laws of the universe to contend with.

And that's fine, honestly it is. I didn't post wanting to persuade you one way or another. I do feel that sometimes we as complex human beings are capable of things we don't yet know of. For example, we "sense" when something is wrong. Women call it "intuition" men call it their "gut." Some people don't believe it and that's fine, but I think that there is some truth to it.

So I understand the more skeptical scientific approach. I don't approach all claims of magic as immediately being true either, trust me! I question it too. I just have different thoughts on it. :] But don't completely disregard it! We don't know everything about the world just yet. ;]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Mattshark

And that's fine, honestly it is. I didn't post wanting to persuade you one way or another. I do feel that sometimes we as complex human beings are capable of things we don't yet know of. For example, we "sense" when something is wrong. Women call it "intuition" men call it their "gut." Some people don't believe it and that's fine, but I think that there is some truth to it.

So I understand the more skeptical scientific approach. I don't approach all claims of magic as immediately being true either, trust me! I question it too. I just have different thoughts on it. :] But don't completely disregard it! We don't know everything about the world just yet. ;]

Yes we do, it is called thinking, it is being able to take the available evidence and make predictions about out come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CerridwenoftheFlesh

Yes we do, it is called thinking, it is being able to take the available evidence and make predictions about out come.

Your reply sounds somewhat condescending, as if you're saying I don't do these things. I can assure you I do. Now yes, we make predictions and form judgments based on what evidence we have available to us. However sometimes out predictions are wrong. It happens. I prefer to keep an open mind. I hope you can accept this fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattshark

Your reply sounds somewhat condescending, as if you're saying I don't do these things. I can assure you I do. Now yes, we make predictions and form judgments based on what evidence we have available to us. However sometimes out predictions are wrong. It happens. I prefer to keep an open mind. I hope you can accept this fact.

Of course we are wrong sometimes, doesn't give any credence to magic though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tjakey

I suspect one can't actually practice magic (not illusions, but physics altering magic) even if one does believe in it. Though I have run across a self proclaimed witch / warlock or two, none of them has actually been able to show me any magic. Usually they claimed that they could if they wanted to, but they didn't see any reason to want too. Fair enough I guess, so long as they granted that I had no reason to believe them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zachz

I disagree. One can be a witch without being Wiccan. If you are a witch or do witchcraft, however, you would be called a "Pagan" even if you dont believe in or practice the religion. Just how it goes.

Its possible to use some magic without believing in any of the deities. Some, but not all. Magic is simply the manipulation of energy and sometimes, the blessings of a deity. You can protect yourself without invoking the name of a deity, but sometimes the most powerful is when you use a deity.

Point being, you can still use magic or white magic without being Wiccan or following the Pagan religions. :]

What I’d like to start about the claim you see in many books and on many websites that Witchcraft, Wicca etc. are “ancient religions”. I could just say, well they’re not, and close this topic, but knowing the inquisitiveness of most people who are interested in witchcraft, you probably won’t let me get away with so little.I’ll start by distinguishing between Wicca and Witchcraft. A lot of people get them mixed up these days. Actually, Wicca is a religion that was founded in the 1950es by Gerald Gardner. Gardner incorporated certain ancient practices and knowledge in his new religion but most of the belief system, the rituals, and the ideas and world view of Wicca are altogether modern. That’s a good thing, by the way: if you read up on ancient pagan practice, you’ll find that it mostly consisted of making sacrifices to the gods, in an attempt to pacify them. Not my idea of a fulfilling religion, and I suspect, not yours either! Of course, some practices of Wicca like herb lore, meditation and trance work etc. have been practiced for centuries. These practices however don’t make up the whole of the religion. Other aspects of Wicca, like worship of one single Goddess and one God, never featured in any ancient religion we know of. Yes, “The Mists of Avalon” IS a work of fiction, as its author Marion Zimmer Bradley was quick to point out! God and Goddess as a divine couple, mother/son, and sister/brother relationship are a beautiful concept though and as such valid in a modern pagan religion. The parts of Wicca that actually are ancient, like the herblore and magic I mentioned above, are incidentally witchcraft practices. And that’s what distinguishes Wicca from witchcraft: Wicca is a religion, one that sometimes incorporates witchcraft. Witchcraft however isn’t a religion, it’s a practice or rather, a number of different practices that can be used as part of a religion or on their own. This is where the ancient aspect comes in. For example, divination, the foretelling of the future, has been practiced probably for as long as there have been human beings on this planet. It’s natural for people to want to know the future and so fortune-telling and divination have always been popular. Mankind soon found out that time isn’t as linear as it seems and that glimpses of the future are indeed possible. Over the centuries, elaborate systems were developed, like the Tarot cards and astrology, but also some simpler divination methods that anyone can do.The latter usually have more entertainment value than anything else - Marian Green tells in one of her books how young girls used to peel an apple so the skin would come off in one long strip and then cast this strip over their shoulder. The shape in which it would end up on the floor was supposed to be the first letter of the name of the man she was going to marry. From my childhood in Germany, I remember a game we used to play on New Year’s Eve, melting lead in a spoon over a flame and then dropping it into a bowl of cold water. The shape in which the lead congealed was supposed to symbolise your year ahead. More serious methods of divination require dedicated practice and patience, and then they can provide some rather astounding insights.Divination and fortune-telling are one example of an ancient art that is still practised in witchcraft today. There are many other examples of course, such as herblore and herb magic.So where does that leave you? I hope you’re beginning to get an idea of what to look out for in the material you consult and learn from. For example, any book or website stating something like, “Wicca, or witchcraft, is…” should make you suspicious, seeing as these two are NOT the same thing at all, although they may be be overlapping at times. Similarly, anyone who tries to sell their own “witchcraft tradition” as an “ancient religion”, should raise a red flag, as anyone who’s studied religious history knows. If paganism in its entirety (as an umbrella term for Wicca, other witchcraft related paths, Heathenry and much more) is looking to be taken seriously by the academia and consequently by official bodies, then we would do well not to present myths as facts or beautiful stories of barefooted priestesses worshipping “the goddess” in ancient times, as history.

Edited by zachz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JonseyMcFly

lol, I know ego magic. The art of makeing my self feal awesome through magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
icile_xele

I've been researching magick alot lately. I want to learn some white magick, just stuff to help others and what not. Noting that involves contacting spirits. I don't beleavin the Wicca or whatever religion. Im a atheist, so I dont have any protection against. Well, demons... I dont know if theres a such thing but yes. Please give me some advice or maybe I could talk to you tro IM or something. Thanks :D

Okay... so why "magic"? There are all sorts of other things out there if your interest is in helping others. Reiki... various forms of energy manipulation and healing if that's your thing. What's curious to me is that ... you say you don't want to work with spirits (citing being non-religious), yet mention not having protection from demons.

You sound more agnostic to me. :) If all you want is to help people, then "white magic" might not be the path for you. If you feel there's a calling and something definitely spiritual behind your interest, there are a few things you need to know.

1. Chaos magic might be up your alley. I don't know very much about it, but it seems to be as inclusive and exclusive as you want it to be. (just according to what I've been told)

2. Folk magic might be another option. I can't tell you just how "white" learning a particular brand of folk magic might be, but if your curiosity is a strong pull, there might be something practiced by people in your family that you can look into.

3. There is no such thing as "white magic", outside of common explanations which come from those who believe that there is a such thing as "black magic". Many years ago I heard the saying that "even a white witch needs to know black magic". If you go down that path seriously and effectively, you'll eventually learn why. It's not what you do, but your reason for doing it. In all things "intent" is what makes a thing good or bad, not the act or brand of magic itself.

4. Although some people practice magic and believe that they receive no help from spirits, angels, demons, or otherwise, others believe that... even if you don't directly petition an entity outside of yourself, you are most definitely receiving "other worldly" help. I can't tell you what to believe, but this is something to consider. And, with you being atheist, I would strongly caution you to figure out what you do believe about spirituality. Simply saying something isn't there or isn't true doesn't make it so. Some will tell you very plainly, if you're using magic and don't petition an entity, and aren't clear in who you're calling, anything can answer your requests. I can't tell you what to believe about this, but it is something to keep in mind. If you say you're not too sure what to think about the existence of demons, then I say this is something you should seriously think about.

5. Protection is important. Like attracts like. If you go down that path you're bound to attract like minded individuals, for better or worse. When looking into this topic, be very careful about what you trust, especially on the internet. Research, research, and research some more. Don't petition entities you're not very familiar with, and don't use words you don't know the meanings of. Don't believe everything you read in books or websites off the bat. Don't go playing around with Orisha or Lwa for kicks or out of curiosity. Set up your protection, and remember you enter at your own risk.

Edited by icile_xele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattshark

Or you could read Harry Potter because that is as real as magic gets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lookingfortruth

Or you could read Harry Potter because that is as real as magic gets.

right. sounds a lot like your first post on this thread. no one can say this for sure :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
icile_xele

I could be mistaken in assuming we're all adults here, but... it's one thing to state opinions and disagreements, and quite another to beat others over the head with your own perspective in such a disrespectful and belittling manner. Hmmmm... Everyone heard that same opinion the first time it was stated (and the second). Assuming it's for attention, yes.... we did hear you. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattshark

right. sounds a lot like your first post on this thread. no one can say this for sure :)

Well seems there is as much reality in the idea as magic as there was then, none. We can say this for sure because we have the laws of thermodynamics, which basically rule out magic.

I could be mistaken in assuming we're all adults here, but... it's one thing to state opinions and disagreements, and quite another to beat others over the head with your own perspective in such a disrespectful and belittling manner. Hmmmm... Everyone heard that same opinion the first time it was stated (and the second). Assuming it's for attention, yes.... we did hear you. :)

No offence, but most adults will have enough understanding to know that magic has no basis in reality. How does telling anyone they can learn amazing super powers that can change their life help anyone when those super powers have no evidence at all, it doesn't and it makes it more difficult for others to deal with their problems that they want these super powers to sort out for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
arglebargle

Depends how you define magic, though, doesn't it?

Take the medical system for example, even doctors acknowledge that a positive attitude, hope, belief, that kind of thing actually does seem to help the healing process.

Who's to say that magic becomes real to those who believe in it?

When you look at the science behind it, it's not magic, per se, but the individual experiencing it might boost the effect simply through belief that it works. Believe it, and you're halfway there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattshark

Depends how you define magic, though, doesn't it?

Take the medical system for example, even doctors acknowledge that a positive attitude, hope, belief, that kind of thing actually does seem to help the healing process.

Who's to say that magic becomes real to those who believe in it?

When you look at the science behind it, it's not magic, per se, but the individual experiencing it might boost the effect simply through belief that it works. Believe it, and you're halfway there.

They help to an extent, it is not along the same lines as magic though, its main point is it can prevent depression and depression can suppress the immune system, that is about it though, just believing you are going to be fine doesn't mean you will. If it is belief against ebola for example, I'd back ebola 100% of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
icile_xele

No offence, but most adults will have enough understanding to know that magic has no basis in reality. How does telling anyone they can learn amazing super powers that can change their life help anyone when those super powers have no evidence at all, it doesn't and it makes it more difficult for others to deal with their problems that they want these super powers to sort out for them.

"No offense"??? Well, that statement isn't at all true, is it? I could be mistaken here, but no one here told the original poster that he would gain any sort of super powers... whatever that's supposed to mean. If your goal were to actually help him, then it would be through presenting your "evidence" to support your case, not by mocking the beliefs of others. There are thousands of little old Italian women who have their own cures for the "evil eye". For thousands of years, thousands of people in the world have practices other religions, such as Voodoo, which certainly have some "magical" element to them. Who the hell are you to call of those people child-like simply because they believe in things which you do not? Has it ever occurred to you that *maybe* someone else in the world understands some things you do not?

Obviously it hasn't, and I'm sure you don't believe that. However, just like those on the side of science which try to insult those who disbelieve some aspects of science because of their faith, it does more harm than good to turn around and insult the intelligence of those you feel should consider a different path or understanding.

If you *think* that most adults would agree with your understand, you're quite obviously very mistaken. Superstition alone, within most known societies of the world, should be enough proof for you. No, you didn't make that comment out of disbelief; you made it out of blatant disrespect.

I agree with what Ranyhyn said... "it depends on how you define magic". Debates are fine, they're great, and can be excellent learning experiences for people on all sides. Yet, to make judgments about things you have no real knowledge of in such a manner could set you up to cause more offense than necessary. A world outside of yourself truly exists.... no offense. ;)

They help to an extent, it is not along the same lines as magic though

I'm very curious... what are the lines of magic, according to you?

Edited by icile_xele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mattshark

"No offense"??? Well, that statement isn't at all true, is it? I could be mistaken here, but no one here told the original poster that he would gain any sort of super powers... whatever that's supposed to mean. If your goal were to actually help him, then it would be through presenting your "evidence" to support your case, not by mocking the beliefs of others. There are thousands of little old Italian women who have their own cures for the "evil eye". For thousands of years, thousands of people in the world have practices other religions, such as Voodoo, which certainly have some "magical" element to them. Who the hell are you to call of those people child-like simply because they believe in things which you do not? Has it ever occurred to you that *maybe* someone else in the world understands some things you do not?

I did, laws of thermodynamics, they are strong evidence against the existence of magic.

Well that is nice for the little old women of Italy, no stereotyping there then. Voodoo has toxic elements to it, not magical.

Obviously it hasn't, and I'm sure you don't believe that. However, just like those on the side of science which try to insult those who disbelieve some aspects of science because of their faith, it does more harm than good to turn around and insult the intelligence of those you feel should consider a different path or understanding.

You are arguing conjecture over evidence and ignorance over knowledge, how is that understanding? Disbelieving science because of faith is just plain wilful ignorance.

If you *think* that most adults would agree with your understand, you're quite obviously very mistaken. Superstition alone, within most known societies of the world, should be enough proof for you. No, you didn't make that comment out of disbelief; you made it out of blatant disrespect.

Well, in countries were education is lacking it is understandable, my girlfriend has lived in Ghana and understands the difference their, it doesn't give it any more credence and there is still no evidence for any this being remotely real.

I agree with what Ranyhyn said... "it depends on how you define magic". Debates are fine, they're great, and can be excellent learning experiences for people on all sides. Yet, to make judgments about things you have no real knowledge of in such a manner could set you up to cause more offense than necessary. A world outside of yourself truly exists.... no offense. ;)

You are defining magic as what basically comes down to a super power though, your list is evidence of that, and the idea behind it does defy thermodynamics, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary that this exists you have very little argument. There is a reason why magic is in the fantasy section.

I'm very curious... what are the lines of magic, according to you?

Well it isn't associated with depression and immune suppression is it now, that would biology, which is something tangible, evidenced and helps drive a medical industry that can look after people far better than at any other time in history, no please tell me, providing reliable evidence, what has "magic" done for health care exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
icile_xele

Nothing you said was any excuse for the comment you made about Harry Potter. You know that it was blatant disrespect and yet you cite earlier posts you made as some defense? That's not the issues at hand, nor is it at all related to the point of my reply to you. Assuming that you are an adult, you should know better. Further, you've clearly demonstrated to me that you haven't the slightest clue about that which you are mocking. Your understanding of what "magic" is supposed to be clearly doesn't expand beyond what you've seen in Hollywood films. On that note, before you attempt to debase all religious beliefs which seem nonsensical to you, it's important to remember that you will never make sense of things you have no knowledge of nor familiarity with.

As an adult you should know better than to make such bold judgments when you're ignorant of a matter. All you know is that you disagree, yet have no idea about the theories behind what you've chosen to repeatedly mock, nor why such beliefs are maintained in "civilized" society.

In another thread, you attacked the Christian G-D (off topic, might I add), simply based on a couple of questions from the perspective of the OP. Clearly an attack made in ignorance and malice by one not well acquainted with Christianity or the Bible. And clearly with no real purpose other than to offend. I fail to see what pride there is to be found in boldly displaying your lack of knowledge and understanding in such a way. Further, with such a brazen, antagonist, and careless nature, I also fail to understand how you could expect anyone to take your arguments or statements with any seriousness.

You attract more flies with honey.

As I've stated, I'm all for open debated and conflicting theories and perspectives. However, your behavior (and no you're not the only one) is simply outrageous. But... I guess the internet is truly filled with all sorts of things, and it is to be expected...

Edited by icile_xele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent. Mulder

Nothing you said was any excuse for the comment you made about Harry Potter. You know that it was blatant disrespect and yet you cite earlier posts you made as some defense? That's not the issues at hand, nor is it at all related to the point of my reply to you. Assuming that you are an adult, you should know better. Further, you've clearly demonstrated to me that you haven't the slightest clue about that which you are mocking. Your understanding of what "magic" is supposed to be clearly doesn't expand beyond what you've seen in Hollywood films. On that note, before you attempt to debase all religious beliefs which seem nonsensical to you, it's important to remember that you will never make sense of things you have no knowledge of nor familiarity with.

he doesnt really need an excuse for the comment he made. it was, more or less based in fact. MS wasnt being disrespectful, he was giving an opinion on the subject matter.

and were not talking about a specific kind of magic that hollywood of fiction writing has made popular, but ANY type of magic at all.

we have none. no evidence for this what so ever. we acknowledge it, ask to see it, and get nothing.

As an adult you should know better than to make such bold judgments when you're ignorant of a matter. All you know is that you disagree, yet have no idea about the theories behind what you've chosen to repeatedly mock.

ok, what are these theories, and more importantly, have they been proven? ever?

In another thread, you attacked the Christian G-D (off topic, might I add), simply based on a couple of questions from the perspective of the OP. Clearly an attack made in ignorance and malice by one not well acquainted with Christianity or the Bible. And clearly with no real purpose other than to offend. I fail to see what pride there is to be found in boldly displaying your lack of knowledge and understanding in such a way. Further, with such a brazen, antagonist, and careless nature, I also fail to understand how you could expect anyone to take your arguments or statements with any seriousness.

theyre not trying to offend anyone. so dont go around running your mouth and making Bold Assumptions about people on here. there is no lack of understanding on their part. just a lack of representation from people who claim they can do these things.

As I've stated, I'm all for open debated and conflicting theories and perspectives. However, your behavior (and no you're not the only one) is simply outrageous. But... I guess the internet is truly filled with all sorts of things, and it is to be expected...

right, so its ok for YOU to consider someones view on this subject 'outreageous', but when someone else finds what You think 'outrageous', thats when you get offended?

id stop throwing those rocks, and go back in the glass house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
icile_xele

I've made no assumptions about anyone. A person who goes into threads to belittle the beliefs of others is not merely stating an opinion or difference in belief. Were I to say that all non-believers were going to hell, for example, this would be called a judgment, outrageous, badgering, antagonistic, and so many other things by many atheists. Were I to call atheism devil worship... what would be made of that? Were I to go in every atheist thread and to make claims like "oh you don't know the power of G_d" and so forth, how would I be perceived? But, of course, if a like minded fellow does the same he is what, just expressing a different opinion? I think not. Why support such a bias?

I don't consider his view outrageous. I called his behavior outrageous. Note what I actually said, not any extra meanings you would like to apply to my comments. I don't need anyone to validate my beliefs. Just as I don't feel the need to run around insulting the beliefs of others, I don't need to have mine supported by others. If you had read carefully, my comment wasn't about his right to his own opinion, but his behavior. These kinds of things take away from the threads.

Yet, according what you've stated... you should support my opinion as well! It is after all, just my opinion, correct? If he's not throwing stones, either am I! If you say I'm throwing stones, then he threw the first one.

Edited by icile_xele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
aquatus1

**While I don't find the comments here to be childish enough to be disrespectful (although they do cover "embarrassing" well enough), the behaviour is most definitely teetering on baiting. Knock it off.**

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.