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Dolphins non-human person?


Cetacea

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Warmer than what? They're pretty much everywhere, like my supervisor used to say, they're the rats of the sea, you'll find them anywhere.

That would be the short beaked common dolphin. Which is not less confusing because as far as I am aware they, very much like the bottlenose dolphins in there social organisation; they are thought to live in fission-fusion societies. They occur in large aggregations occasionally but again, these are temporary associations:

Groups are generally not stable through time as individuals join or leave the group regularly, with individuals joining certain groups preferentially. This organization is referred to as a “fission–fusion” society

....

Common dolphins might sometimes segregate by sex and age

...

Analysis of 11 microsatellite loci revealed that average relatedness of the mass-stranded pod was not different from average relatedness among all single strandings suggesting that individuals within the group had no closer kin relationships than animals taken from presumably different groups. These results do not support a matriarchal system and suggest that common dolphins constituting a pod are not necessarily genetically related.

...

To conclude, common dolphin social organization does not appear to be matrilineal or based on kinship. They morelikely show a fluid social structure with some segregation by sex and age as was suggested by the earlier studies

-Viricel et al., 2008

So again, I find it problematic to talk about 'pod survival' when talking about a fission-fusion society where there is essentially no long-term pod. I would think that would make altruism a lot less likely as well as the investment would outweigh the benefit for most 'pod members'.

I wouldn't say any dolphin is cute as such, they're beautiful, yes but I feel calling them cute enforces the bad 'Flipper-image' as a I like to call it which portrays them as fluffy, happy disney characters that just loooove people rather than the magnificent apex predator they are.

really? wow please dont compare them to rats. lol but no i didnt know they could be found in cold climate. and short beaked are similar but they all still do have compassion how about this. Ill call GP sighn us up to go on RW and i will show you the compassion they have when you see it for your self. Hell ill get you up close if you dont believe me. i have also seen a dog nurse a kitten but that cant be true huh? Yet the best evidence is to see it. or i guess i could upload images.

you see your looking into the research but even reaserch cant find a soul or will of something and thats what the dolphin shows when protecting a child their will to fight an enemy that is hurting young. its not science its a soul

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oh no bottle nose are more of a warm climate dolphin.

Like Norway, the UK, Baltic Sea, Bay of Fundy, British Colombia? Those warm climates?

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Like Norway, the UK, Baltic Sea, Bay of Fundy, British Colombia? Those warm climates?

*hugs* hey matt shark long time no see. lol

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Like Norway, the UK, Baltic Sea, Bay of Fundy, British Colombia? Those warm climates?

i was saying how bottle nosed are more of a warm climate dolphin and are not the ones i saw in norway but um i think you where trying to mock me. you need to read the whole post dear.

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really? wow please dont compare them to rats.

Why not? They are like rats, like rats you can find them everywhere in the world, they are an extremely adaptable and successful generalist species. Like rats.

and short beaked are similar but they all still do have compassion how about this. Ill call GP sighn us up to go on RW and i will show you the compassion they have when you see it for your self. Hell ill get you up close if you dont believe me.

I've seen a lot of dolphins and a lot of lack of compassion and I've seen a lot of instictual behaviour being mistook for compassion. What examples of behaviour have you observed yourself that led you to the conclusion they are compassionate?

I'm not saying they can't be, some animals have shown signs that they do have empathy but it is notoriously hard to prove and usually occurs in animals that live in close knit groups, which is a condition not fullfilled by this species which is why I am doubtful.

i have also seen a dog nurse a kitten but that cant be true huh? Yet the best evidence is to see it. or i guess i could upload images.

No of course that can be true, there is plenty of examples of this sort of behaviour but whether it is compassion or not is another question, animals that are lactating obviously show maternal behaviour and occasionally misdirected maternal behaviour. Some dogs that have phantom pregnancies will attempt to nurse stuffed toys, that does not mean they have compassion, it means they are showing misdirected maternal behaviour.

you see your looking into the research but even reaserch cant find a soul or will of something and thats what the dolphin shows when protecting a child their will to fight an enemy that is hurting young. its not science its a soul

No actually it is biology. Any animal that shows maternal care will protect it's young. It's biologically hard wired into mammals that show parental care. The ultimate 'goal' is to pass on your genes, animals with altricial young, ie. young that depend on their parents, have made a huge energetical investment, it would be silly and ecologically unsound not to defend it. Of course 'love' or 'bonding' may come into it in some species, especially species like dolphins where calves may associate with their mothers even when they are independent, however, you cannot claim a mother defending it's calf as support for it being compassionate as there is a longterm benefit to be gained for the mother, ie. the survival of her genes. If you had an unrelated animal defending a calf, you may have a better case.

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i was saying how bottle nosed are more of a warm climate dolphin and are not the ones i saw in norway but um i think you where trying to mock me. you need to read the whole post dear.

I'm telling you that those are places were bottlenose dolphins occur. They are not more of a warm climate species at all, they are a cosmopolitan species. We get plenty of them off the UK.

It was in Norway where a bottlenose attempted to rape a man.

Edited by Mattshark
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I'm telling you that those are places were bottlenose dolphins occur. They are not more of a warm climate species at all, they are a cosmopolitan species. We get plenty of them off the UK.

It was in Norway where a bottlenose attempted to rape a man.

yes i know thats why you need to read my other posts where i say "wow no i didnt know that they are in colder climate"or something like that please read them. in any event they are not the bottle nose dolphin at least the ones i saw.

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Why not? They are like rats, like rats you can find them everywhere in the world, they are an extremely adaptable and successful generalist species. Like rats.

I've seen a lot of dolphins and a lot of lack of compassion and I've seen a lot of instictual behaviour being mistook for compassion. What examples of behaviour have you observed yourself that led you to the conclusion they are compassionate?

I'm not saying they can't be, some animals have shown signs that they do have empathy but it is notoriously hard to prove and usually occurs in animals that live in close knit groups, which is a condition not fullfilled by this species which is why I am doubtful.

No of course that can be true, there is plenty of examples of this sort of behaviour but whether it is compassion or not is another question, animals that are lactating obviously show maternal behaviour and occasionally misdirected maternal behaviour. Some dogs that have phantom pregnancies will attempt to nurse stuffed toys, that does not mean they have compassion, it means they are showing misdirected maternal behaviour.

No actually it is biology. Any animal that shows maternal care will protect it's young. It's biologically hard wired into mammals that show parental care. The ultimate 'goal' is to pass on your genes, animals with altricial young, ie. young that depend on their parents, have made a huge energetical investment, it would be silly and ecologically unsound not to defend it. Of course 'love' or 'bonding' may come into it in some species, especially species like dolphins where calves may associate with their mothers even when they are independent, however, you cannot claim a mother defending it's calf as support for it being compassionate as there is a longterm benefit to be gained for the mother, ie. the survival of her genes. If you had an unrelated animal defending a calf, you may have a better case.

hold on why cant animals be compassionate and why is it all instinct? because they are animals? yes. as humans we think we are on the top but the truth is waht we do is instinct and i think humans are the ones who show less compassion then a dolphin seriously we kill for sport. we have abortions and not for the right reasons all the time. Yet you call it biology to care for a young one but humans do it all the time. as do apes. as do alot of animals but its not just the mother defending her child its a pod defending their own. like the wolf seeking revenge. we thiunk we are on top because we are smarter really we are as pitiful as ant the way we slaughter and murder and conform to monetary things. i know what i saw and keep seeing everytime we run the green peace training video we have to be a gp sea op. that poor little guy tied by the tail cut at both fins bleed ing and 4 pods comming to help only to be shot. the water turning red and the men laughing, because its funny that even after the poor guys family is dead they slit the babe's throat and let him bleed. and we cant do sh**. why? because noone cares. if they did we would be able to save them.

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hold on why cant animals be compassionate and why is it all instinct? because they are animals?

yes. as humans we think we are on the top but the truth is waht we do is instinct and i think humans are the ones who show less compassion then a dolphin seriously we kill for sport.

I think you need to go back and re-read what I said, I said, some animals show signs of empathy, it's just very hard to distinguish in animals from instinct as we cannot ask them. I also doubt empathy and compassion in this specific species of dolphin because of the afore-mentioned reasons in regards to it's social organisation. Behaviours described in dolphins as 'compassionate' as defending their young is not unique to them, thousands of other species do it too, yet they are singled out for it.

Incidentally dolphins kill for sport too.

we have abortions and not for the right reasons all the time.

I am not even going to start on abortions as it does not belong here.

Yet you call it biology to care for a young one but humans do it all the time. as do apes.

It's just as much biology in us as it is in them, it's just that we go to more lengths than most animals, to ascertain that this species of dolphins do in fact go to those lengths is a leap of faith however.

as do alot of animals but its not just the mother defending her child its a pod defending their own.

Personal observations/proof/recorded incidents that show this is the case in short beaked common dolphins? As I stated before, I was doubting it in these specific dolphins because of their social structure, as I said, in orcas it would be a lot more likely due to their social organisation!

like the wolf seeking revenge.

Em, again: observations/proof/recorded incidents?

we thiunk we are on top because we are smarter really we are as pitiful as ant the way we slaughter and murder and conform to monetary things.

Actually I would put the ant above us.

i know what i saw and keep seeing everytime we run the green peace training video we have to be a gp sea op. that poor little guy tied by the tail cut at both fins bleed ing and 4 pods comming to help only to be shot. the water turning red and the men laughing, because its funny that even after the poor guys family is dead they slit the babe's throat and let him bleed.

Short beaked common dolphins? Where? How are they trying to help, how are they behaving, what are they doing? What else is going on around the boats? Is it fishing boats? These are all factors that need to be taken into account when trying to assess something as complex as claiming an animal has compassion. dolphins will approach boats for a variety of reasons, even in the absence of any other stimuli and they can often tell the differences in boats, a lot of dolphins have learned to distinguish fishing boats and will approach them in the hopes of a free handout. Is there anywhere you can see this video?

Also if it's a training video rather than an actual personal observation- not to offend anyone, I respect Greenpeace far more than Sea Shepherd but they are not known for being objective and videos are usually heavily edited for effect.

and we cant do sh**. why? because noone cares. if they did we would be able to save them.

Noone is denying that dolphin hunting is often gruesome and wholly unneccessary, however, legislation wise there is very little you can do as short beaked common dolphins are not actually endangered. While it is definitely horrible to watch, and should not be happening as killing methods for cetaceans are inhumane, there are species that deserve more attention.

Edited by Cetacea
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I think it says a lot about the human race that dolphins and elephants, two of the smartest animals, not only avoid harming humans, but they've been known to specifically protect humans from harm. Dolphins, for example, have bene known to swim beside swimmers in the sea to keep sharks away.

And how do we humans return the favor? We hunt them and we kill them, for the stupidest things. An elephant will protect a human, a human will kill it for the ivory.

It makes us sound like greedy monsters. At least we're not all like that.

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I think it says a lot about the human race that dolphins and elephants, two of the smartest animals, not only avoid harming humans, but they've been known to specifically protect humans from harm. Dolphins, for example, have bene known to swim beside swimmers in the sea to keep sharks away.

Utter tripe. This stupid myth needs to be seriously expunged.

If there are dolphins around you and a white shark of a tiger shark show up you will notice the dolphins do one thing, leave. Sharks eat dolphin.

Sharks are not interested in eating people and dolphins bite people just as much as sharks do, it just happens that sharks have much sharper teeth (most attacks are also provoked).

Sharks won't try to rape you, dolphin will.

Elephants are extremely dangerous animals and kill far more people than sharks do. In fact elephants, especially African, are one of the most dangerous animals on the planet.

Where do people get this rubbish from?

Edited by Mattshark
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I think it says a lot about the human race that dolphins and elephants, two of the smartest animals, not only avoid harming humans, but they've been known to specifically protect humans from harm. Dolphins, for example, have bene known to swim beside swimmers in the sea to keep sharks away.

And how do we humans return the favor? We hunt them and we kill them, for the stupidest things. An elephant will protect a human, a human will kill it for the ivory.

It makes us sound like greedy monsters. At least we're not all like that.

While I would agree that humans are one of the most useless species in the world, tales of humans being protected by dolphins are vastly exaggerated, in fact there are a lot of shark attack survivors that maintain they first noticed that something was wrong when all the dolphins suddenly dissapeared. Rapid flight is the most common and logical response of most dolphin species to sharks. There was even a series of experiments in the 70s that wanted to make use of the dolphins mythical reputation for protecting humans from sharks and they failed miserably; dolphins were trained to attack sharks - which they did as long as the shark species was harmless to them, but when they tried it with a bullshark, species often implemented in shark attacks on human, the dolphins fled. a pod of dolphins may mob a small shark but as bottlenose dolphins especially are renowned for harassing other marine creatures such as turtles or other dolphin species, this is hardly surprising.

However thanks to FLipper the media likes to pick up on anything that looks vaguely like dolphins assisting people for that fuzzy feel good feeling of 'we have a special connection to dolphins'.

Stories like this and this, get comparatively little press.... it makes for a quick quirky headline and then is buried somewhere under the public's pre-conceived notion of the 'friendly' dolphin. We like to think dolphins like us because we like them. This is a fallacy though, and I quote because someone else put it far better than I could do: please listen carefully, while you may want to talk to dolphins, dolphins do not want to talk to you. That’s right. Mostly, dolphins want to eat fishes and have sex with other dolphins. And that pretty much cuts you out of the loop, doesn’t it? Oh, I know that there are the occasional dolphins that hang around beaches, swim with humans and seem to be chummy, but these are the exceptions. You don’t judge the whole human race by the people who attend monster car rallies, do you?

Not heard of elephants saving people before, where did you hear about that? I don't know much about elephants but I just saw this headline today:

Elephant kills mother and baby

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame any of this on the animals, we are entering their realm after all, they are bound to react to us in some way and if we behave inappropriately, well that might unfortunately be rather viciously. The point is, noone profits from the animals being portrayed as fluffy friendly disney characters.

Edited by Cetacea
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It's a step down and sadly also a step up. Remember, we did suffer greatly during medieval times. Something about being thought of as demon animals.. *snorts* But that seems to be the case with so many others. From gods to demons to pampered house pets..

*snickers*

I never doubted dolphin intelligence. Though I also think it's unfair to judge them using human intelligence as a base line. While so many animals show vast depths of clever thinking, problem solving, et al.. it's also clear they think on many different levels then we do. That and we've lost a good amount of basic survival thinking skills other animals clearly have.

Example. Buffalo will make every attempt to keep their calves guarded in the center of the heard when a predator is near. Humans? So many will just let their kid run all over ahead of them in woods known to have animals big enough to find a small child a tasty treat. Then act surprised when said little morsel.. er.. child is indeed a cougar's next meal. Who in their right mind would let their soft and squishy child run off up ahead in known cougar country?! ... and on a completely different rant *laughs*

But yeah... It has been clear that yes, Dolphins, Felines, Corvids, and a host of other animals have immense intelligence. On par with humans in many many ways. They just think on whole different levels then we do.

Granted I did read somewhere once that it seems that goats and sheep have "dumbed down" quite a bit when they were domesticated..

Mind you for the Egyptians, Baat was a household Goddess, and this is perhaps why christians looked at cats as evil.

:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

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It's a step down and sadly also a step up. Remember, we did suffer greatly during medieval times. Something about being thought of as demon animals.. *snorts* But that seems to be the case with so many others. From gods to demons to pampered house pets..

*snickers*

I never doubted dolphin intelligence. Though I also think it's unfair to judge them using human intelligence as a base line. While so many animals show vast depths of clever thinking, problem solving, et al.. it's also clear they think on many different levels then we do. That and we've lost a good amount of basic survival thinking skills other animals clearly have.

Example. Buffalo will make every attempt to keep their calves guarded in the center of the heard when a predator is near. Humans? So many will just let their kid run all over ahead of them in woods known to have animals big enough to find a small child a tasty treat. Then act surprised when said little morsel.. er.. child is indeed a cougar's next meal. Who in their right mind would let their soft and squishy child run off up ahead in known cougar country?! ... and on a completely different rant *laughs*

But yeah... It has been clear that yes, Dolphins, Felines, Corvids, and a host of other animals have immense intelligence. On par with humans in many many ways. They just think on whole different levels then we do.

Granted I did read somewhere once that it seems that goats and sheep have "dumbed down" quite a bit when they were domesticated..

Mind you for the Egyptians, Baat was a household Goddess, and this is perhaps why christians looked at cats as evil.

:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

Edited by Paracelse
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Technically, a person has the right to vote, .. :devil: :devil: :devil: I wonder who will be the first to dive in... the republicans who will tell them sorry.. we used you for underwater warfare we did some chemical tests on you etc.. the list is inexhaustibly long or the democrats who will offer them a glass of chardonnay :P

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Technically, a person has the right to vote, .. :devil: :devil: :devil: I wonder who will be the first to dive in... the republicans who will tell them sorry.. we used you for underwater warfare we did some chemical tests on you etc.. the list is inexhaustibly long or the democrats who will offer them a glass of chardonnay :P

This is the problem with the whole, giving rights to animals, if you're going to give dolphins human rights, we'll have a lot of bottlenoses in court for rape and murder....

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I wonder if Christians would also consider them having the so called "Souls" hahahha XD

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Why not? They are like rats, like rats you can find them everywhere in the world, they are an extremely adaptable and successful generalist species. Like rats.

I've seen a lot of dolphins and a lot of lack of compassion and I've seen a lot of instictual behaviour being mistook for compassion. What examples of behaviour have you observed yourself that led you to the conclusion they are compassionate?

I'm not saying they can't be, some animals have shown signs that they do have empathy but it is notoriously hard to prove and usually occurs in animals that live in close knit groups, which is a condition not fullfilled by this species which is why I am doubtful.

No of course that can be true, there is plenty of examples of this sort of behaviour but whether it is compassion or not is another question, animals that are lactating obviously show maternal behaviour and occasionally misdirected maternal behaviour. Some dogs that have phantom pregnancies will attempt to nurse stuffed toys, that does not mean they have compassion, it means they are showing misdirected maternal behaviour.

No actually it is biology. Any animal that shows maternal care will protect it's young. It's biologically hard wired into mammals that show parental care. The ultimate 'goal' is to pass on your genes, animals with altricial young, ie. young that depend on their parents, have made a huge energetical investment, it would be silly and ecologically unsound not to defend it. Of course 'love' or 'bonding' may come into it in some species, especially species like dolphins where calves may associate with their mothers even when they are independent, however, you cannot claim a mother defending it's calf as support for it being compassionate as there is a longterm benefit to be gained for the mother, ie. the survival of her genes. If you had an unrelated animal defending a calf, you may have a better case.

Almost all of what you say here, could apply to humans aswell imo.

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Almost all of what you say here, could apply to humans aswell imo.

Would you like to elaborate? Though, yes, humans are definitely like rats :D

As I said, basic motivations are probably the same yes, it's the lengths to which people go that in my opinion 'makes compassion'. It's when the benefits do not outweigh the gain imo, that you can make a case for compassion in non-human animals. Simply because you have to go by evidene not on guesswork and interpretation, unfair maybe but we do have to compensate for the ludicrous amount of anthropomorphisation that strikes when people look at dolphins.

As I said, i don't think it's impossible in non-human animals, it's just difficult to prove and in this specific species, I believe a lot of behaviour has been severely anthropomorphised and distorted to fit our perception.

Edited by Cetacea
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  • 1 year later...

There is a lot of misinformation being posted here. First off, dolphins have never, ever killed a single human being.

Secondly, it is well documented that dolphins have saved humans many times. This behavior has also been demonstrated in the lab.

Why would it come as a surprise that a creature with a brain that has more in common with human brains than that of the ape show altruistic and even ethical behavior toward humans? It is likely that they are just as curious about us. As a matter of fact, dolphins and some whales are the only species that seek out interplay with humans in the wild....

It is difficult for some human egos to accept the fact that humans aren't the biggest game in town, and it's evident by some of the fearful responses to the notion of granting dolphins elevated status. And no one is suggesting that we would have to start trying them for human crimes like rape. The idea is to give them the respect they deserve as a species with similar attributes to man.

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Utter tripe. This stupid myth needs to be seriously expunged.

If there are dolphins around you and a white shark of a tiger shark show up you will notice the dolphins do one thing, leave. Sharks eat dolphin.

Sharks are not interested in eating people and dolphins bite people just as much as sharks do, it just happens that sharks have much sharper teeth (most attacks are also provoked).

Sharks won't try to rape you, dolphin will.

Elephants are extremely dangerous animals and kill far more people than sharks do. In fact elephants, especially African, are one of the most dangerous animals on the planet.

Where do people get this rubbish from?

It is well documented that dolphins have saved human lives from time to time throughout history. Dolphins have a kinship that I suspect comes from the fact that they can sonar our VERY SIMILAR brains.

They are curious about humans and are the only wild animals that seek out humans in the wild. Yes, most of them can't be bothered but many do seem to enjoy hanging with humans from time to time.

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This is the problem with the whole, giving rights to animals, if you're going to give dolphins human rights, we'll have a lot of bottlenoses in court for rape and murder....

There is no problem with giving dolphins elevated status as "non-human persons". They have demonstrated that they fulfill the requirement of "personhood" if you will; they are a special case. They are arguably as intelligent as humans if not more so; they have a language and a culture. No other animal in the animal kingdom has the brain size required for a language on the level that humans have.

They seem to have a moral code in which humans are not to be killed, and this despite the barbaric crimes we commit against them. If there ever was a case for compassion in dolphins, that would be it in a nutshell. A wild dolphin can kill a human much quicker and more efficiently than a shark if he/she so desired. But they don't. They never have. It is ridiculous to argue that they have been anything but kind to humans. They deserve the same from us.

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Some dolphins have tried to rape women.

Yeah, they aren't as innocent as they look. :unsure2:

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Oh sure, because if they were dumb, it would be moral to mistreat them.

But the farther from sentience an animal is, the less it matters to most to mistreat them. Realistically, not all living things are equal. A tree doesn't need the same rights as a man.

The issue is of where to draw the line, although the second most intelligent animal should be a given.

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Utter tripe. This stupid myth needs to be seriously expunged.

If there are dolphins around you and a white shark of a tiger shark show up you will notice the dolphins do one thing, leave. Sharks eat dolphin.

Sharks are not interested in eating people and dolphins bite people just as much as sharks do, it just happens that sharks have much sharper teeth (most attacks are also provoked).

Sharks won't try to rape you, dolphin will.

Elephants are extremely dangerous animals and kill far more people than sharks do. In fact elephants, especially African, are one of the most dangerous animals on the planet.

Where do people get this rubbish from?

Some people think that dolphins are actually awful creatures merely because of the contrast between popular belief and the reality of a few unflattering traits.

I'm sorry, but dolphins are pleasant and sharks are unpleasant. I don't know of many(none, actually) instances of Dolphins eating people or biting arms off. I'm sure at some point in history a Dolphin has taken a nip at a human, but I seriously doubt any Dolphin "attacks" to be of the same degree as sharks.

And did you ever consider the fact that elephants kill more people because, oh I don't know, Africa is more populated by humans than the ocean is? lol :rolleyes:

If sharks lived on land, then I'm sure the numbers would be different. But they don't.

Edited by Soul Kitchen
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