2012 and it's consequences

[TheSearcher]

People who spread this 2012 bunkum, should be aware on how much harm they can cause. This 2012 end of the world hoax, is a like vicious rumor, that is spreading like mad, in a very vulnerable and guillable segment of humanity : children, youngsters, etc..

To give but an example of how dangerous this can be : In September, 2008, Chayya, a 16 year old girl in India, committed suicide by drinking insecticide. She was scared and depressed, having been convinced by the over-hyped media reports, that the start-up of the Large Hadron Collider in Cern, would cause a miniature big bang and destroy the world.

Some might think that I'm over reacting, but search the net and you'll see, the young children, youngsters and young adults, being afraid, depressed, fearing the world might end. This might seem strange to normal adults, but some of these young people are thinking about suicide, just to escape the alleged 2012 doomsday.

I have an inherent problem with an 7 year old asking me if the world really was going to end in 2012 and if it would be painfull. This was my cousin's young son asking me this last week, he was genuinely terrified by the idea and even a tad depressed about it, as he wanted his life to continue.

All of this, because of what? A few greedy con people, that want to sell their books, video's or 2012 survival kits? Is money really worth anybody's life, especially children 's lives? 2012 is a business and a disgusting one at that.

What you write and what you say can have a profound effect on other people! If someone is saying that the world will end in a disaster in 2012 and someone else takes their own life because of it, who would you deem responsible? I know my answer, what's yours? Think about it! Not everybody has someone around to calm them down and put things into perspective, like I did for my cousin's son.

OK, I'm done with my rant now. Condemn me if you want, but think about who you're talking to, before you start spouting your 2012 hoax.

[SlimJim22]

Apologies, bugs in the machine. Yes 2012 is being overhyped and will surely only lead to further hysteria the closer we get. Then when nothing happens it evry year there after will hold prophecies of doom I'm sure. Since the Mayans diidn't talk about the end of the world but the end of an age we need to be very careful in drawing our interpretions. My view is that something of cosmic significance will occur, change will happen but it may be subtle.

[Numerol]

Agree,there's a guy in my town,who quit school,sold his belongings,and drank away all the money.The police arrested him because of a fight in a local bar,and when asked why he did it,he said because the world will end anyway in 2012,and he doesn't want to die with the rest of us so he'll drink himself to death.

Also 2 of my schoolmates quit school last month,because the "end of the world" crap,they see no reason to study,since "we are all going to die in 2012"

[TheSearcher]

Apologies, bugs in the machine. Yes 2012 is being overhyped and will surely only lead to further hysteria the closer we get. Then when nothing happens it evry year there after will hold prophecies of doom I'm sure. Since the Mayans diidn't talk about the end of the world but the end of an age we need to be very careful in drawing our interpretions. My view is that something of cosmic significance will occur, change will happen but it may be subtle.

Ok, lets go for another round.

1. Contrary to popular understanding, the ancient Meso-Americans, be they Aztec or Maya or any other group, left no oral or written “prophecy” record about what would or could happen on or about the year 2012 other than a great age of 5125 years would end and another commence.

2. This apocalyptic interpretation of the Long Count calendar end-date is widely disputed, with most scholars insisting that it simply marks a resetting of the calendar to Baktun 13.0.0.0.0

3. Scholars studying the maya, have this to say about 2012

Despite the publicity generated by the 2012 date, Susan Milbrath, curator of Latin American Art and Archaeology at the Florida Museum of Natural History, stated that "We [the archaeological community] have no record or knowledge that [the Maya] would think the world would come to an end" in 2012.

(Source : Van Stone, Mark PhD. G.F. 2009-06-02 It's Not the End of the World: What the Ancient Maya Tell Us About 2012 Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/research/vanstone)

"For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. in Crystal River, Florida. To render December 21, 2012, as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."

(Source : Van Stone, Mark PhD. G.F. 2009-06-02 It's Not the End of the World: What the Ancient Maya Tell Us About 2012 Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/research/vanstone/2012/2012Part2.pdf Page 105)

"There will be another cycle," says E. Wyllys Andrews V, director of the Tulane University Middle American Research Institute (MARI). "We know the Maya thought there was one before this, and that implies they were comfortable with the idea of another one after this."

(Source : Van Stone, Mark PhD. G.F. 2009-06-02 It's Not the End of the World: What the Ancient Maya Tell Us About 2012 Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies, Inc. http://www.famsi.org/research/vanstone/2012/2012Part1.pdf Page 48)

4. Apolinario Chile Pixtun is a Mayan Indian elder, and he is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff." (Source)

5. Lets also note that this calendar is still being used by some cultures in the highlands of Guatemala! There are no reports of preparations for doomsday.

6. The B’ak’tun date 13.0.0.0.0 is not the “end of the calendar” we’ve heard so much about. It is the end of a cycle of 144,000 days, or 394 solar years. It may or may not also be the end of a higher-order cycle. If one piktun is 13 baktuns, then the 2012 solstice is also the end of a cycle of 5125 years. If one piktun is 20 baktuns (as most scholars think) then the current cycle does not end in 2012. The calendar is mostly base-20, except in the second position, which clicks over to zero when it reaches 18.

7. Some Mayan inscriptions reference dates after 2012, the Mayan Calendar also has four “rarely used” (which is not the same as “non-existent”) higher order cycles.

There are also four rarely-used higher-order periods above the b’ak’tun: piktun, kalabtun, k’inchiltun, and alautun.

It is a matter of dispute whether the first piktun occurs after 13 or after 20 b’ak’tun. Most scholars think that in the majority of inscriptions, where only the last five Long Count positions are used, the count recycles at 13 b’ak’tuns, whereas, if longer cycles are used, the count continues to the end of the 20th b’ak’tun (b’ak’tun 19) before a piktun is registered. In the same way, the fact that a 13-katun cycle was used, didn’t negate the fact that there are 20 katuns in a b’ak’tun.

(Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar#2012__and__the__Long__Count)

Now, please explain to me what event of cosmic significance will occur and how did you come to that conclusion?

[KennyB]

Ok, lets go for another round.

1. Contrary to popular understanding, the ancient Meso-Americans, be they Aztec or Maya or any other group, left no oral or written “prophecy” record about what would or could happen on or about the year 2012 other than a great age of 5125 years would end and another commence.

2. This apocalyptic interpretation of the Long Count calendar end-date is widely disputed, with most scholars insisting that it simply marks a resetting of the calendar to Baktun 13.0.0.0.0

3. Scholars studying the maya, have this to say about 2012

4. Apolinario Chile Pixtun is a Mayan Indian elder, and he is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff." (Source)

5. Lets also note that this calendar is still being used by some cultures in the highlands of Guatemala! There are no reports of preparations for doomsday.

6. The B’ak’tun date 13.0.0.0.0 is not the “end of the calendar” we’ve heard so much about. It is the end of a cycle of 144,000 days, or 394 solar years. It may or may not also be the end of a higher-order cycle. If one piktun is 13 baktuns, then the 2012 solstice is also the end of a cycle of 5125 years. If one piktun is 20 baktuns (as most scholars think) then the current cycle does not end in 2012. The calendar is mostly base-20, except in the second position, which clicks over to zero when it reaches 18.

7. Some Mayan inscriptions reference dates after 2012, the Mayan Calendar also has four “rarely used” (which is not the same as “non-existent”) higher order cycles.

There are also four rarely-used higher-order periods above the b’ak’tun: piktun, kalabtun, k’inchiltun, and alautun.

It is a matter of dispute whether the first piktun occurs after 13 or after 20 b’ak’tun. Most scholars think that in the majority of inscriptions, where only the last five Long Count positions are used, the count recycles at 13 b’ak’tuns, whereas, if longer cycles are used, the count continues to the end of the 20th b’ak’tun (b’ak’tun 19) before a piktun is registered. In the same way, the fact that a 13-katun cycle was used, didn’t negate the fact that there are 20 katuns in a b’ak’tun.

(Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar#2012__and__the__Long__Count)

Now, please explain to me what event of cosmic significance will occur and how did you come to that conclusion?

Searcher, The Govt likes to have the people (sheeple) scared. It keeps them from concentrating on how they're getting screwed. To do this, in this case, they're using the 'scientists' and media's love of disaster scenarios to upset the population. Then you add religion to it in the form of Revelations. Fear is a powerful emotion, more than some can stand. KennyB

[SlimJim22]

So the stuff about it coinciding with the Solar system aligning with the Dark Rift of the Milky Way is made up you are saying? That is what my interpretation of the Mayan Calendar meaning. i.e. a portion of the procession of equinoxes. I thought that this was fact and that is why Sun spot activity was so high. Is it just part of the 11 year cycle? I saw a doc saying how solar radiation would knock out satelites and electrical infrastructure for at least three months if we recieved a signifcant blast.

[stereologist]

So the stuff about it coinciding with the Solar system aligning with the Dark Rift of the Milky Way is made up you are saying?

Coincidences mean little. It has happened before and will happen again.

Let's be clear it's not the solar system that is aligned. It's the solstice sun.

[stereologist]

Thanks searcher for posting this thread to inform people that there is a downside to telling people that they will die and there is nothing that can be done about it. The Y2K baloney led to people tossing away their careers to build personal fortresses. My buddy pulled a good one and now I have to wait will 2038 to pull this myself. At a New Year's eve party he left the countdown to go outside to the main power supply box. As the crowd inside counted to 0 he turned off the power to the house. The ensuing panic inside was great. People had bought into the notion that civilization would collapse. Turning the power back on ended the bedlam inside.

[Emma_Acid]

So the stuff about it coinciding with the Solar system aligning with the Dark Rift of the Milky Way is made up you are saying? That is what my interpretation of the Mayan Calendar meaning. i.e. a portion of the procession of equinoxes. I thought that this was fact and that is why Sun spot activity was so high. Is it just part of the 11 year cycle? I saw a doc saying how solar radiation would knock out satelites and electrical infrastructure for at least three months if we recieved a signifcant blast.

The whole "alignment" thing is utterly meaningless. There is no logical way for the solar system to "align" with the Great Rift, and even if it was what does this have to do with anything?

It certainly has nothing to do with sun spots. The sun goes through a cycle every 11 years. This is just something to do with the sun's internal mechanism, just as the pole flips on earth are to do with the liquid iron core.

[SlimJim22]

The whole "alignment" thing is utterly meaningless. There is no logical way for the solar system to "align" with the Great Rift, and even if it was what does this have to do with anything?

It certainly has nothing to do with sun spots. The sun goes through a cycle every 11 years. This is just something to do with the sun's internal mechanism, just as the pole flips on earth are to do with the liquid iron core.

Yes, yes, yadda yadda. However, if Nibiru or something like it exists beyong the Kypher belt (as science suggests) then the proposition of a brown dwarf entering the solar system would have profound consequences. I presume it would be a kind of a male/female interaction going on as they were attracted and repelled. Thus increased solar flare activity. Solar flares are also linked with volcanic eruptions, therefore if you check for large eruptions globally that synchronize with the alleged time of Nibiru then that would be a strong argument.

Read up on your Mayan Calendars and see if any of the numbers mean anything to you. They may not.. 21,600 years or something for a complete cycle and 11,800 for half, break it down from there and compare it with the start and beginning of ages in archeology. We are entering Aquarius before long but are currently subject to the effects of a minor age of Scorpio. Read up on it and see if it corresponds with what we are experiencing right now i.e. threat of nuclear war and terrorism.

[stereologist]

Read up on your Mayan Calendars and see if any of the numbers mean anything to you. They may not.. 21,600 years or something for a complete cycle and 11,800 for half, break it down from there and compare it with the start and beginning of ages in archeology. We are entering Aquarius before long but are currently subject to the effects of a minor age of Scorpio. Read up on it and see if it corresponds with what we are experiencing right now i.e. threat of nuclear war and terrorism.

Yes, yes, yadda, yadda.

[Piney]

People who spread this 2012 bunkum, should be aware on how much harm they can cause. This 2012 end of the world hoax, is a like vicious rumor, that is spreading like mad, in a very vulnerable and guillable segment of humanity : children, youngsters, etc..

To give but an example of how dangerous this can be : In September, 2008, Chayya, a 16 year old girl in India, committed suicide by drinking insecticide. She was scared and depressed, having been convinced by the over-hyped media reports, that the start-up of the Large Hadron Collider in Cern, would cause a miniature big bang and destroy the world.

Some might think that I'm over reacting, but search the net and you'll see, the young children, youngsters and young adults, being afraid, depressed, fearing the world might end. This might seem strange to normal adults, but some of these young people are thinking about suicide, just to escape the alleged 2012 doomsday.

I have an inherent problem with an 7 year old asking me if the world really was going to end in 2012 and if it would be painfull. This was my cousin's young son asking me this last week, he was genuinely terrified by the idea and even a tad depressed about it, as he wanted his life to continue.

All of this, because of what? A few greedy con people, that want to sell their books, video's or 2012 survival kits? Is money really worth anybody's life, especially children 's lives? 2012 is a business and a disgusting one at that.

What you write and what you say can have a profound effect on other people! If someone is saying that the world will end in a disaster in 2012 and someone else takes their own life because of it, who would you deem responsible? I know my answer, what's yours? Think about it! Not everybody has someone around to calm them down and put things into perspective, like I did for my cousin's son.

OK, I'm done with my rant now. Condemn me if you want, but think about who you're talking to, before you start spouting your 2012 hoax.

GOOD THREAD! I've been debunking this garbage for the last 10 years with every Newage knucklehead coming into the Bridgeton Indian Center looking for "End Times" and Spiridicul mierdo.

Lapii'che n'tiis

[2012hoax]

Thank you all for discussing this, and special thanks to The Searcher, for putting our wiki in his profile.

[TheSearcher]

Yes, yes, yadda yadda. However, if Nibiru or something like it exists beyong the Kypher belt (as science suggests) then the proposition of a brown dwarf entering the solar system would have profound consequences. I presume it would be a kind of a male/female interaction going on as they were attracted and repelled. Thus increased solar flare activity. Solar flares are also linked with volcanic eruptions, therefore if you check for large eruptions globally that synchronize with the alleged time of Nibiru then that would be a strong argument.

Read up on your Mayan Calendars and see if any of the numbers mean anything to you. They may not.. 21,600 years or something for a complete cycle and 11,800 for half, break it down from there and compare it with the start and beginning of ages in archeology. We are entering Aquarius before long but are currently subject to the effects of a minor age of Scorpio. Read up on it and see if it corresponds with what we are experiencing right now i.e. threat of nuclear war and terrorism.

First of all, science does not suggest that there is is a planet / dwarf star / brown dwarf / nibiru / planet X / Wormwood beyond the Kuiper belt (or also called Edgeworth-Kuiper belt). The Kuiper belt is a region of the Solar System beyond the planets extending from the orbit of Neptune (at 30 AU) to approximately 55 AU from the Sun. Like the asteroid belt, it consists mainly of small bodies, or remnants from the Solar System's formation. But, whilst the asteroid belt is composed primarily of rock and metal, the Kuiper belt objects are composed largely of frozen volatiles, such as methane, ammonia and water. It is home to at least three dwarf planets, Pluto, Haumea and Makemake, yes, but science has ever associated it with the 2012 bs, in any way, shape or form.

If, and that's a big if, a brown dwarf were to enter the solar system and be close enough to us, so that it would coincide with 2012, the gravitational forces alone would already be visible and quantifiable, not to speak of the object itself, which would be visible to the stronger telescopes and radio telescopes.

As to solar flares, the radiation and particles, produced by them, ionize the atmosphere and prevent the movement of radio waves between satellites and the ground or between the ground and the ground. The ionized particles in the atmosphere can induce electric currents in power lines and cause power surges. These power surges can overload a power grid and cause blackouts. This said, that's only in the extreme cases.

Lets remember though, solar flares are caused by sunspots (caused by intense magnetic activity, which inhibits convection, forming areas of reduced surface temperature) and said sunspots have a cycle of appearance, called the solar cycle, which takes in average 11 years. They are not caused by gravitational forces, as far as I understand, which is what you imply.

Can you explain where you found the idea of solar flares causing volcanic eruptions? As volcanic eruptions are the result of geological causes, as far as I can tell, I find this intriguing.

And no I'll not go into the new-age astrology stuff, it has no foundation in science and the mayan calandar has been sufficiently explained and discussed over and over again. Right now it seems to me you're grasping as straws and are totally besides the point. Seems to me that you lot only accept science (without really understanding it) when it helps your argument, yet dismiss it when it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

GOOD THREAD! I've been debunking this garbage for the last 10 years with every Newage knucklehead coming into the Bridgeton Indian Center looking for "End Times" and Spiridicul mierdo.

Lapii'che n'tiis

Well it seemed important to point out, that this kind of doomsday saying, has consequences that people don't right away think of.

Thank you all for discussing this, and special thanks to The Searcher, for putting our wiki in his profile.

It's a worthwhile endeavor, so hell yes, I'm trying to make them smell the coffee and wake up.

[Emma_Acid]

Yes, yes, yadda yadda.

Oh, sorry. Was I trying to be too factual?

However, if Nibiru or something like it exists beyong the Kypher belt (as science suggests) then the proposition of a brown dwarf entering the solar system would have profound consequences.

There has never been a scientific suggestion of a brown dwarf beyond the Kypher belt (whatever that is - maybe you mean the Kuiper belt? Again, way to go with the facts there), let alone one entering our atmosphere.

Also, Brown Dwarves are averagely about 50 masses of Jupiter. We would know if the damn thing was there by now.

I presume it would be a kind of a male/female interaction going on as they were attracted and repelled. Thus increased solar flare activity. Solar flares are also linked with volcanic eruptions, therefore if you check for large eruptions globally that synchronize with the alleged time of Nibiru then that would be a strong argument.

Solar activity has nothing to do with gravity from other bodies, but the internal magnetic mechanisms of the sun. Also, solar activity goes in 11 year cycles. So I'll ask again - if it is the result of (sigh) Nibiru, why did it happen 11 years ago?

Also, solar flares are in no way linked to volcanic activity.

Read up on your Mayan Calendars and see if any of the numbers mean anything to you. They may not.. 21,600 years or something for a complete cycle and 11,800 for half, break it down from there and compare it with the start and beginning of ages in archeology. We are entering Aquarius before long but are currently subject to the effects of a minor age of Scorpio. Read up on it and see if it corresponds with what we are experiencing right now i.e. threat of nuclear war and terrorism.

Nice to see you have your numbers down accurately.

A long count on the Maya calendar was 394.3 years. It has nothing to do with "21,600 years" (or something).

We are entering Aquarius before long but are currently subject to the effects of a minor age of Scorpio. Read up on it and see if it corresponds with what we are experiencing right now i.e. threat of nuclear war and terrorism.

Oh great, astrology. Never ever proven to be even vaguely accurate, even its most hardcore proponents profess to not know how or why it works (which it doesn't).

And terrorism has been around for decades. The threat of nuclear war was greater in the early 60s than it probably will ever be again.

Well done astrology.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Emma_Acid

[SlimJim22]

I don't care to argue with you so these are places where you can read the things I alluded to

Mayan : www.amatyc.org/Events/conferences/2009LV/proceedings/catepillan.pdf

www.scribd.com/.../Sacred-Geometry-Mayan-Calender-End-Date-2012

www.originofculture.com/Astronomical%20Cycles%20&%20Facts.htm

www.earthmatrix.com/multipli/extrac17.htm - United States

Brown dwarf : www.darkstar1.co.uk/tinystar.html

www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_hercolobus_35.htm

Ages : http://macroastro.wordpress.com/published-articles/scorpio-%E2%80######3-the-sign-of-the-times/

I hope you read these links. If you think they are uncredible sources thats fine. There are plenty more and just as many who can unsubstantiate.

The real 'Fact' is that facts are losing their credibility. Our reality is not adequately explained by proof. there is way too much we don't know and even more we don't understand. Therefore I (and Bernal) suggest we move to a model of competitive plausability. Facts and proof have their place but there is a much deeper understanding needed to fully comprehend our situation. Sadly the keys to this understanding have been so well hidden we have almost forgotten when they ever existed.

[Mattshark]

I don't care to argue with you so these are places where you can read the things I alluded to

Mayan : www.amatyc.org/Events/conferences/2009LV/proceedings/catepillan.pdf

www.scribd.com/.../Sacred-Geometry-Mayan-Calender-End-Date-2012

www.originofculture.com/Astronomical%20Cycles%20&%20Facts.htm

www.earthmatrix.com/multipli/extrac17.htm - United States

Brown dwarf : www.darkstar1.co.uk/tinystar.html

www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_hercolobus_35.htm

Ages : http://macroastro.wordpress.com/published-articles/scorpio-%E2%80######3-the-sign-of-the-times/

I hope you read these links. If you think they are uncredible sources thats fine. There are plenty more and just as many who can unsubstantiate.

The real 'Fact' is that facts are losing their credibility. Our reality is not adequately explained by proof. there is way too much we don't know and even more we don't understand. Therefore I (and Bernal) suggest we move to a model of competitive plausability. Facts and proof have their place but there is a much deeper understanding needed to fully comprehend our situation. Sadly the keys to this understanding have been so well hidden we have almost forgotten when they ever existed.

Your right, you source a well known for being full of faeces. They just make things up or misinterpret things through ignorance (occasionally wilfully so).

Sorry mate, but facts are not losing their credibility at all. Reality is very adequately explained by evidence, even with out us knowing everything. You have to understand that just because you do not know something, that doesn't mean that others don't either.

It is science that brings us understanding.

And basic junior school science should tell you that if something 5 times the size of Jupiter is due to arrive in 2 year that we should be able to easily see it and the massive gravitation effects it would have across the system.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Mattshark

[SlimJim22]

Your right, you source a well known for being full of faeces. They just make things up or misinterpret things through ignorance (occasionally wilfully so).

Sorry mate, but facts are not losing their credibility at all. Reality is very adequately explained by evidence, even with out us knowing everything. You have to understand that just because you do not know something, that doesn't mean that others don't either.

It is science that brings us understanding.

And basic junior school science should tell you that if something 5 times the size of Jupiter is due to arrive in 2 year that we should be able to easily see it and the massive gravitation effects it would have across the system.

Oh the naievity of that theory is amuzing. Space is a very, very big place. We cannot sufficiently say that we have mapped every inch or can view in all directions to give a full picture. It would take literally millions of man hours. as I have stated before I am willing to accept that I am wrong are you? I am simply discussing alternatives and trying to provide sources. It is your job (if you choose) to discredit my sources but saying they are full of faeces is funny if a little needless.

Just say there was a brown dwarf beyond the solar system somewhere, it is a fair way and even if we were looking in the right place it might be too dim to recognize as a brown dwarf is a failed star and therefore does not have the luminescence of a star. Agreed that it would be masssive but I don't see it getting too near to Earth so chill about the atmosphere and what not. If it approached from a southernly approach it would be particularly difficult to spot as there are not as many observatories in Antartica as there are in North America.

Another way of interpreting it is that our solar system is actually revolving around it and it is within the dark rift. That would explain why we can't see it, cos as you say it would need to be rather large.

You have found me out though I am not an astronomer, cosmologist or any otther type of scientist. I am merely an open minded indivdual who enjoys considering possibilities. You say these 'irregularities' are impossible but can you prove that? It is hard to prove impossibility because it depends on the variables that you use, you cannot say with certainty (though you will innevitably try)that we are aware of all variables in the very complex equations of life, space, time and consciousness.

[Mattshark]

Oh the naievity of that theory is amuzing. Space is a very, very big place. We cannot sufficiently say that we have mapped every inch or can view in all directions to give a full picture. It would take literally millions of man hours. as I have stated before I am willing to accept that I am wrong are you? I am simply discussing alternatives and trying to provide sources. It is your job (if you choose) to discredit my sources but saying they are full of faeces is funny if a little needless.

Sorry mate, but this has been shown to be bunk hundreds of times. We don't need to map out every inch of it.

Yes I am willing to accept that I am wrong, but on the one hand you have astronomers who study space professionally and on the other you have conspiracy websites who unlike the astronomers don't require evidence, education or peer review. One opinion is not as valid as another.

Just say there was a brown dwarf beyond the solar system somewhere, it is a fair way and even if we were looking in the right place it might be too dim to recognize as a brown dwarf is a failed star and therefore does not have the luminescence of a star. Agreed that it would be masssive but I don't see it getting too near to Earth so chill about the atmosphere and what not. If it approached from a southernly approach it would be particularly difficult to spot as there are not as many observatories in Antartica as there are in North America.

We can see pluto, so no and if it was were claimed, there are 2 points. 1) It would be able to get here in just under 3 years 2) We see massive gravitational effects.

The is a massive microwave-telescope at the south pole. There are telescopes in Australia, Argentina, Chili, the south Pacific islands. It would be very easy to see

Another way of interpreting it is that our solar system is actually revolving around it and it is within the dark rift. That would explain why we can't see it, cos as you say it would need to be rather large.

If it is there, that means that at the speed of light it will take 300 years to get here.

You have found me out though I am not an astronomer, cosmologist or any otther type of scientist. I am merely an open minded indivdual who enjoys considering possibilities. You say these 'irregularities' are impossible but can you prove that? It is hard to prove impossibility because it depends on the variables that you use, you cannot say with certainty (though you will innevitably try)that we are aware of all variables in the very complex equations of life, space, time and consciousness.

You willingness to take the word of some guy with a website is an insult to these people. Ignoring evidence for some wild claim is not open minded.

[SlimJim22]

Sorry mate, but this has been shown to be bunk hundreds of times. We don't need to map out every inch of it.

Yes I am willing to accept that I am wrong, but on the one hand you have astronomers who study space professionally and on the other you have conspiracy websites who unlike the astronomers don't require evidence, education or peer review. One opinion is not as valid as another.

We can see pluto, so no and if it was were claimed, there are 2 points. 1) It would be able to get here in just under 3 years 2) We see massive gravitational effects.

The is a massive microwave-telescope at the south pole. There are telescopes in Australia, Argentina, Chili, the south Pacific islands. It would be very easy to see

If it is there, that means that at the speed of light it will take 300 years to get here.

You willingness to take the word of some guy with a website is an insult to these people. Ignoring evidence for some wild claim is not open minded.

I am willing to consider all evidence and don't take the word of any man. Maybe I am not open minded may be I am stupid. I don not care. I follow the things that resonate for me. For me I can see our current situation in a cosmic context. When you view things this way the slightest link hear or there in religion, myth or history may make things clearer or not. Nothing is set in stone but what is the harm in contemplating the minutest possibility that there is some sort of divine plan that weaves together the fabric of the Universe in a way that science is yet to unravel.

If you accept my previous contention that Nibirus arrival or appearance would increase the vibrations of the Sun which in turn would increase the vibrations on Earth causing volcanoes to erupt, earthquaakes, hurricanes and Tsunamis. Is it a coincidence that 3,600 years in the past you come to the middle of the 16th century bce when Thera erupted, as did Krakatoa and Pompei. Additionally this appears the most likely time for dating the Exodus story. Whether that is a literal or allegorical story is a discussion for another thread me thinks.

Wishing you all well but will not be able to reply for some hours. Thanks for you comments.

[Mattshark]

I am willing to consider all evidence and don't take the word of any man. Maybe I am not open minded may be I am stupid. I don not care. I follow the things that resonate for me. For me I can see our current situation in a cosmic context. When you view things this way the slightest link hear or there in religion, myth or history may make things clearer or not. Nothing is set in stone but what is the harm in contemplating the minutest possibility that there is some sort of divine plan that weaves together the fabric of the Universe in a way that science is yet to unravel.

Only scientific work asks you not to take it at its work asks you not to take it at its word.

If you accept my previous contention that Nibirus arrival or appearance would increase the vibrations of the Sun which in turn would increase the vibrations on Earth causing volcanoes to erupt, earthquaakes, hurricanes and Tsunamis. Is it a coincidence that 3,600 years in the past you come to the middle of the 16th century bce when Thera erupted, as did Krakatoa and Pompei. Additionally this appears the most likely time for dating the Exodus story. Whether that is a literal or allegorical story is a discussion for another thread me thinks.

Yes, but that doesn't actually happen. And Krakatoa was in 1883, Pompeii was 79CE. Thera is the only one that would fit that. But sorry anything that big in close proximity to Earth would destroy it, not cause a volcano in the med to erupt.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Mattshark

[TheSearcher]

I am willing to consider all evidence and don't take the word of any man. Maybe I am not open minded may be I am stupid. I don not care. I follow the things that resonate for me. For me I can see our current situation in a cosmic context. When you view things this way the slightest link hear or there in religion, myth or history may make things clearer or not. Nothing is set in stone but what is the harm in contemplating the minutest possibility that there is some sort of divine plan that weaves together the fabric of the Universe in a way that science is yet to unravel.

If you accept my previous contention that Nibirus arrival or appearance would increase the vibrations of the Sun which in turn would increase the vibrations on Earth causing volcanoes to erupt, earthquaakes, hurricanes and Tsunamis. Is it a coincidence that 3,600 years in the past you come to the middle of the 16th century bce when Thera erupted, as did Krakatoa and Pompei. Additionally this appears the most likely time for dating the Exodus story. Whether that is a literal or allegorical story is a discussion for another thread me thinks.

Wishing you all well but will not be able to reply for some hours. Thanks for you comments.

Like I said in my earlier post mate, which you conveniently ignored (thanks for that), you can't have it both ways, either you trust science and you stick to the facts, or you do not trust science and stop using it whenever it suits your purpose only, rejecting everything else.

Besides, I get the impression that you only have a very basic grasp of what science you use. The solar flare and vulcano comment you made seems to indicate that much.

[Emma_Acid]

The real 'Fact' is that facts are losing their credibility. Our reality is not adequately explained by proof.

I'm not even sure this is worth commenting on. If you've decided the laughable websites you've posted as "proof" are a more believable explanation for the natural universe then I think you are whats known as a "lost cause".

Facts and proof have their place but there is a much deeper understanding needed to fully comprehend our situation.

Ah yes, "deeper", or "more nebulous", essentially meaning "I know whats really going on but don't have to prove it".

Oh the naievity of that theory is amuzing. Space is a very, very big place. We cannot sufficiently say that we have mapped every inch or can view in all directions to give a full picture.

No one has ever stated that we have mapped out every inch of space. We do know enough to know that there is not a Brown Dwarf heading towards us from the Kuiper Belt. This is directly observable.

I am simply discussing alternatives and trying to provide sources.

This is where people usually wheel out the "why can't you just let us believe what we want?" line. And its for this reason: what you're suggesting aren't "alternatives". There is no Brown Dwarf heading towards us, and it would be funny if there weren't children committing suicide because of the rubbish people like you suggest is reality.

Just say there was a brown dwarf beyond the solar system somewhere, it is a fair way and even if we were looking in the right place it might be too dim to recognize as a brown dwarf is a failed star and therefore does not have the luminescence of a star.

You said it was inside the Kuiper Belt. We can observe objects in the Belt. If there was a Brown Dwarf, even with no light, we would be able to detect its lithium and methane not to mention its gravitational effects. Easily.

[digitalartist]

Oh the naievity of that theory is amuzing. Space is a very, very big place. We cannot sufficiently say that we have mapped every inch or can view in all directions to give a full picture. It would take literally millions of man hours. as I have stated before I am willing to accept that I am wrong are you? I am simply discussing alternatives and trying to provide sources. It is your job (if you choose) to discredit my sources but saying they are full of faeces is funny if a little needless.

Just say there was a brown dwarf beyond the solar system somewhere, it is a fair way and even if we were looking in the right place it might be too dim to recognize as a brown dwarf is a failed star and therefore does not have the luminescence of a star. Agreed that it would be masssive but I don't see it getting too near to Earth so chill about the atmosphere and what not. If it approached from a southernly approach it would be particularly difficult to spot as there are not as many observatories in Antartica as there are in North America.

Another way of interpreting it is that our solar system is actually revolving around it and it is within the dark rift. That would explain why we can't see it, cos as you say it would need to be rather large.

You have found me out though I am not an astronomer, cosmologist or any otther type of scientist. I am merely an open minded indivdual who enjoys considering possibilities. You say these 'irregularities' are impossible but can you prove that? It is hard to prove impossibility because it depends on the variables that you use, you cannot say with certainty (though you will innevitably try)that we are aware of all variables in the very complex equations of life, space, time and consciousness.

Using the info that has presented in books, on the internet, etc... Nibiru is supposedly 5 times and 15 times the gravity of Jupiter. Now Jupiter's gravity has been proven to affect the entire solar system so Nibiru's effect would be 15 times greater. If Nibiru is going to strike us in 2012, with the 3600 year orbit, it should be not much farther from us than our distance to the sun. However, even if it were as far away as Jupiter it would still be visible and it's gravitational effects would be pronounced, to say the least. To believe otherwise is too live in a fantasy world where an object of that size, mass and gravitational effects are not felt until the moment of impact.

[sepulchrave]

Hey SlimJim22, do you `know' where Nibiru's closest approach to the Sun will be?

I've done it before in various threads (too lazy to look for them now), but if you `know':

1. How long it takes Nibiru to orbit the Sun (presumably 3600 years?),
   
2. When Nibiru will next be closest to Earth or the Sun (presumably Dec. 21st 2012?), and
   
3. How close Nibiru will get to the Earth or the Sun (presumably the asteroid belt?),
   

Then I can tell you where in the sky it is and how far away it is.

My previous calculations suggested it was just inside the orbit of Uranus right now - plenty close to be visible, especially if it is a huge brown dwarf.