Goths.

[AndyThorley]

In a thread I made a couple days back, I got into a little tiff over calling someone a gothic weirdo.

Thus, I make this thread...to discuss how and why people label goths (I put it in the skeptics bit cause I'm skeptical myself, but you never do know).

Well as for why...I'd say its because people have pretty much always classified themselves and others into groups. I mean, looking back you've got your religious labels (Protestants, Catholics, Quakers, Bakers, Candlestick makers), your racial groups (Black and White and the segregation thereof).

So people class others as goths because they need to label anyone and everyone.

So what is the definition of a goth? Thus far I have yet to find two answers which agree with one another, so I have come to the conclusion that not even people who claim to be goths know what theyre talking about (In fact, I openly ask goths to give me their definitions of the word. It's fun to compare/contrast)

Historically speaking, a goth is a german barbarian. Many comuter games refer to them as do one or two Asterix books (yes, I know history books talk about them...thats why I don't mention them u_u)

This is mentioned in the urban dictionary...as well as about twenty other definitions of the modern kind...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...p?term=goth&f=1

So if anyone has any further additions it'd be much appreciated.

[Falco Rex]

This is just a guess, but I'm pretty sure the Goths named themselves after the "Gothic Horror Story" genre. If you've ever read any Gothics you'll find them to be dark, moody and depressing..

And I think the genre itself was named after the Gothic school of Archtecture, which is full of strange angles, dark spaces, and high towers and is altogether suited to moods of awe and fear..

[Chauncy]

So people class others as goths because they need to label anyone and everyone.

Is it other people or non-goths that label Goths as Goths?.........or do they simply call themselves...... Goth?

I always assumed that they called themselves Goth because they liked the 'Gothic' style of the middle ages. They dress in their interpretation or modernization of this Gothic style.

I may be wrong here and extend no offense, but is the label 'Goth' in reference to clothing style, or to fashionize and accessorize in this modernized Gothic midaevil style?

[BurnSide]

back in my TEEN i used to dress goth, and be all mopy and crap. wear all black, and generally looking stupid, except i was all 'i'm goth, it's a statement man, i'm different from everyone else'.

truth is, i was the same as everyone, converting to a group, following a trend, etc. for the most part, there is no goth anymore, it's just all kids being cool by being different and stuff.

in my opinion, of course.

anyway, i think it comes from the general feeling of gothic being dark and creepy.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

I first heard the term in my teens, as "death punks" or "gothic punks" later evolving to "Goths". There was also strong associations with groups like The Cult, The Mission etc.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Daughter of the Nine Moons

[Chauncy]

When I went to high school, no one said they were a 'Goth'. There were people that dressed as 'Goths' do, but they were into this band called 'Skinny Puppy' so we just called them the 'Skinny Puppies'

[Naveed]

Well, at one point goths were an actual subculture, but I dunno if they ever really considered themselves goth. It's my understanding that true goths never really label themselves goth because it's uncool to label yourself. Now it's just a trend for teenagers to dress "goth" by shopping at Hot Topic where I unfortunately bought some of my "gothiness" when I tried going goth, but after reading some stuff about what true goths were, not the historical ones, but the subculture, I realized that Hot Topic is bs other then the couple metal samplers and industrial samplers they had. Unfortunatly I don't have any actual places to buy real goth clothes around so I'm somewhat normal again. I still wear my nifty barbed wire braclets I bought though, and bondage watch strap. I'm more of a metalhead anyways. \m/ Of course I still wonder if listening to bands like Poison Black, Type O Negative, Cradle of Filth, Lacuna Coil, and Sentenced makes me more of a gothic metal head.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Naveed

[ImNotTrent]

Labels labels.

People use labels and stereotypes on something they don't understand usually. Cause it's easier. And hey, I'm all about easy.

Though, I do grow weary of people always questioning what "Goth" is. It isn't really anything amazing or deep or spectacular. Goth is just a handy label to stick on someone for ease of placing them in neat little rows.

Goth is different things to different people.

It's like asking, what is it to be a cowboy, or a jock, or wife, or a husband, or any other label that is out there.

You will get different responses from almost every person you ask. Looking in websites won't tell anything amazing or offer an epiphiny or enlighten your soul as to what goth is or isn't.

To me, it is being me. I am well out of highschool and don't cave into peer pressure, for if I did, I'd be a nice mormon boy by now.

This is the most annoying question, and also one I see posted more than any other on all of the message boards I go to.

To me, it all boils down to, live and let live, if someone is not harming you, there is no reason to bother or harm them.

[Chauncy]

People use labels and stereotypes on something they don't understand usually.

I personally have never labled anyone as Goth unless they told me they were Goth. After being told by so many people that they were Goth, and then realizing the style of extreme dress, I then assume that when I see people that wear the exact same extreme dress that they would be Goth too.

Like I asked in my first post:

Is it other people or non-goths that label Goths as Goths?.........or do they simply call themselves...... Goth?

[doomgirl]

I found this on the net, well obviously der to me

anyway, I think this will answer all of your questions

The REAL Gothic FAQ

Edited June 11, 2004 by doomgirl

[Chauncy]

Thanks for clearing the fog Doomgirl!

From the Q and A

Q: What is a goth?

A goth is somebody who listens to gothic music and looks gothic. Gothic music includes old stuff like Alien Sex Fiend, Specimen, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Sisters of Mercy, etc., and new stuff like London After Midnight, The Horatii, etc. There are plenty of places to find lists of gothic music. If you don't know what goths look like, you're really clueless and shouldn't be reading this, but it involves lots of makeup, big hair, and lots of black clothes.

Wonder why Skinny Puppy didn't make the list?......jjk

Goth Chick. (Copyright 2001 Sebastian Studios)

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

I remember Skinny Puppy

[Monkyburd]

Goth; noun, def: 1-Children who reach out for attention they can't establish elsewhere by dressing as depressed clowns 2-A subculture defined by darkness, the occult, and beauty in misery where none of these attributes are actually present.

[Serena]

Yet again...false information about Goths!

Doomsgirl...that site is filled with false facts. For instance...

Q: What is a goth?

A goth is somebody who listens to gothic music and looks gothic. Gothic music includes old stuff like Alien Sex Fiend, Specimen, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Sisters of Mercy, etc., and new stuff like London After Midnight, The Horatii, etc. There are plenty of places to find lists of gothic music. If you don't know what goths look like, you're really clueless and shouldn't be reading this, but it involves lots of makeup, big hair, and lots of black clothes.

First of all...If you're a Goth you'd know that this subculture does not mean lots of make-up, big hair, and lots of black clothes. This is sterotypical and is not done by most true Goths. Clothing and make-up wearing is to be worn as you feel to express yourself. There are no rules. When the movie the Crow came out...BAM! Newbies started showing up wearing white make-up (not that this hasn't been done before and by many cultures) but I think where the newbies all of a sudden came from out of nowhere and then claiming themselves Goth perhaps felt a certain connection.

I feel the person who wrote this is not a Goth and thinks they know the scene so well from viewing what others claim to be...perhaps watched too many buffy episodes.

I was born before the era. I am considered a first generation Goth from the time it started and in fact I co-wrote a hit underground song in this line of music.

Am I like most others (usually teens) roaming around today claiming to be Goth because they want to fit in by wearing white make-up, black clothes, into buffy, death and God knows what else??? NO. This does not represent Goth. To be Goth does not mean that there are absolute guidelines to dress, music ect. To be Goth is to be who you are (amongst other things) not to dress as one feels they will fit into an "image". And you do not have to listen to Goth music!!!

I am NOT into horror movies and refuse to watch it because it's dark energy. Am I satanic? NO. I am with the light, however I appreciate the darkness for what it teaches...how love and light heals and always overcomes darkness.

Do I dress in black all of the time? NO. I have a wide varitey of clothing...anywhere from prep to Goth and rave clothes and also hippie/earthy clothes...and I wear many colors! And I will wear preppie clothing to a Goth club if that's what I feel like wearing! I will go anywhere I feel like it with the clothes I care to wear that day or night. I'm also said to have the best landscape and flower display in the area that I do myself.

Music wise...well, besides disco, classical and flamenco, I grew up with it and I love the 80's music more today than then. But I love all types of music. And also to mention...on some Goth stations, they play Catholic music too in it's original form! There are different types of Goth music. Even the Cure is Goth music. Only some "Goth" music is very dark.

This guy is so wrong....your hair can be whatever color you'd like it to be. I'm not going to waste my time and read everything on that site. I'm not slashing out at you doomsgirl because I understand that you and most people are misinformed.

I already gave a link of what the true definition of Goth is...hey, I'll put it on this thread too.

http://www.blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html

If you really want to know what Goth is, read the page from the link I just shared with you. Take my word from this site as for I am AN ORIGINAL FIRST GENERATION GOTH!

[Monkyburd]

Whoah whoah whoah, Prep is prep, jock is jock, and goth is goth. You can't be goth and dress preppy. Thats not how it works!

For that matter, I'm a goth trapped in a jock's body with a preppy wardrobe! AHHHHH! I'm a freak of social nature!!!

[AndyThorley]

To be Goth is to be who you are (amongst other things) not to dress as one feels they will fit into an "image". And you do not have to listen to Goth music!!!

No, sir, that's called 'being an individual' and contrary to what they would have you believe, Goths didn't invent it.

They just claim they did, yet ignore it.

Case in point:

"Interview with a goth" a documentary on channel 4 a couple months back went into all kinds of gothic hangouts in order to reach the bottom of the mystery and the following exchange took place...

Man: And...what would you say is your defining feature as a goth?

Goth 1: Yeah, I got this tat *Rolls up sleeve revealing 'UNIQUE' in gothic lettering*

Man: *To other goth* And you?

Goth 2: Yeah, I got one, too *Rolls up sleeve, revealing identical tatoo to the first goth*

[BurnSide]

That's just it.

Goths are absouletly no different than preps, skaters, poets, anyone who fits into a clique. They're just hipocrites, because they believe following a fad is dumb, yet, it is a fad!

[AndyThorley]

They're just hipocrites, because they believe following a fad is dumb, yet, it is a fad!

All non-conformists are, though.

Look at punks; "Lets rebel against conformity by dressing the same, acting the same, listening to the same kinds of music and so on"

And communism! Man, that was great.

"Let us rebel against conformity...and start a commune where the founding rule is that everyone is the same"

[Serena]

To be Goth is to be who you are (amongst other things) not to dress as one feels they will fit into an "image". And you do not have to listen to Goth music!!!

No, sir, that's called 'being an individual' and contrary to what they would have you believe, Goths didn't invent it.

They just claim they did, yet ignore it.

Case in point:

"Interview with a goth" a documentary on channel 4 a couple months back went into all kinds of gothic hangouts in order to reach the bottom of the mystery and the following exchange took place...

Man: And...what would you say is your defining feature as a goth?

Goth 1: Yeah, I got this tat *Rolls up sleeve revealing 'UNIQUE' in gothic lettering*

Man: *To other goth* And you?

Goth 2: Yeah, I got one, too *Rolls up sleeve, revealing identical tatoo to the first goth*

Andy...where did I ever claim Goths invented individualality??? I haven't. And like I already mentioned several times before...labels are labels and (in other words) do not represent who you are.

Am I a nit wit here or did not any of you read the link I posted or did you guys just daze off into another world yet still feel eager to reply to this post still commenting with false info? Are all of these posts by Andy under a different name? And as far as tattoos being Goth...geez Andy. Again you just don't get it or are unwilling to see or you just care to get a rise...a rise you're not going to get out of me...a freakin attention seeker out of negative falstivity.

For real... "Goth 1 and 2" sound like burned out stoners. You didn't leave a link to your source...but if it's valid...I'm not interested in reading it because someone mentioning a tattoo making them Goth...oh, so I suppose the sailors, all of the Janenise, ect. are Goth because they have a tat???

Andy, and this is in my opinion is how I see and read your comments on these subjects given here and about the tarot card thread...(mind you I haven't read your Gothic weirdo thread)....Get over it! What ever has happened to you with that girl you claim a weirdo you encountered her for a reason and ALLOWED it. Ask yourself why you allowed a "weirdo" to read your cards twice. Just because you found an unjoyful experience with one person that claims to be a Goth and may find insecurities of others claiming or may indeed be Goth...is this the real issue here??? Or could it be that another person finds them so bold to express who they are or feel themselves to be at the time regardless of feeding into others likliness in order to be accepted.

Again, anyone to threaten black magic and an attention seeker is not Goth!

[Chauncy]

I gain my impressions of people looking in their eyes when I talk to them, my eyes do not dwell on attire or company. Never-the-less I find these social groups very interesting and worthy of examination. I believe thats what AndyThorely had in mind with this thread. The fact that some people proclaim themselves as belonging to a specific social group or style is intriguing.

People that fashion themselves in a 'Goth' style seem to be one of the more uniform as far as having a common theme is concerned. Where as because of this theme there is uniformity.

Serena's link listed some criteria as to how you would classify yourself as 'Goth' or I assume how we could classify someone as 'Goth'.

Although I don't find it to be very defining where as it applies to many people I know, that do not claim 'Gothdom'

"If most (10 or more) of the following statements are true, it is VERY likely that you are Goth. If the first statement is false, you aren't Goth. No, not even if all 16 of the rest are true. Of course, you would be readily accepted and most welcome amongst Goths for your strength of individuality and ability to appreciate the culture in general and themselves in particular."

*You feel the need to spend a lot of time creating things (music, art, poetry, philosophies, stories and the like)

*Your creative efforts are often described as dark, shocking, scary, morbid or strange

*You like museums and cultural centers

*You understand and even enjoy Shakespeare, Shelley, Browning or some other similar work without having to read the Cliffe Notes

*You know the difference between nihilism and existentialism, even if you don't really live by either

*You really, truly enjoy music of many kinds

*You are a very sensual person (aware of color, texture, sound, taste and scent)

*You don't understand why the people around you spend so much time watching TV

*You don't feel comfortable looking just like everyone else you know

*You do feel comfortable just being yourself, even if no one else around is anything like you

*You wonder "why" a lot, and come up with some interesting answers

*You wonder "how" a lot, and often figure it out on your own

*You don't just reject something because you don't understand it

*You base your opinions of people on who they are and what they do rather than what they look like

*You are not afraid of the unknown

*You are not afraid of the dark

*You are afraid of mediocrity

http://www.blood-dance.net/goth/grant.html

Edited June 12, 2004 by Chauncy

[AndyThorley]

Andy...where did I ever claim Goths invented individualality??? I haven't. And like I already mentioned several times before...labels are labels and (in other words) do not represent who you are.

I never said you did.

It's just a statement which seems to ring true to the typical gothic mindset. "We're so depressed and are unique by creating this mindset".

Granted, I'm sure not all goths think this way.

just all the goths I know.

Am I a nit wit here or did not any of you read the link I posted or did you guys just daze off into another world yet still feel eager to reply to this post still commenting with false info?

There is no false information when youre talking about personal opinions.

If you find yourself disagreeing with information then try and say why...and offer some alternative if you will.

Simply whining that you don't like something isn't going to stop people from posting their opinions and what they find online.

Are all of these posts by Andy under a different name?

Simply because more than one person has the same opinion theyre suddenly all me in disguise?

I've heard that one on message boards plenty of times before (the people at OCR are demons for it) but never expected it here.

Of course all these people aren't me. They just happen to have similar thought patterns to me, Is that a problem?

Like I said before, if youre going to say something is wrong say why and offer an alternative.

And as far as tattoos being Goth...geez Andy. Again you just don't get it or are unwilling to see or you just care to get a rise...a rise you're not going to get out of me...a freakin attention seeker out of negative falstivity.

Yes, I am an attention seeker. I know very few people who aren't attention seekers, whether they'll admit to their ways or not.

You make it sound like a bad thing.

For real... "Goth 1 and 2" sound like burned out stoners. You didn't leave a link to your source...but if it's valid...I'm not interested in reading it because someone mentioning a tattoo making them Goth...oh, so I suppose the sailors, all of the Janenise, ect. are Goth because they have a tat???

Now, I never said that the tatoo made them goths. I'm sure they didn't say the tatoo made them goths...but they said their tatoo was what defined them as a person and, ironically, their defining thing defined them as a confused sheep.

Andy, and this is in my opinion is how I see and read your comments on these subjects given here and about the tarot card thread...(mind you I haven't read your Gothic weirdo thread)....Get over it!

*dealt with in PM*

Again, anyone to threaten black magic and an attention seeker is not Goth!

To come back to my earlier point. Everyone is an attention seeker in some way or another.

Let us take you, Serena.

When you go to work or school or whatever...do you wear a burlap sack? Or do you wear proper clothes?

Assuming the answer is the latter (by all means correct me if I am incorrect ) then I ask you...why do you do it? Why wear clothes when a rag could conceal your modesty just as well, hmm?

I highly doubt it's entirely to make yourself feel good, rather, it's so that your peers dont look down on you and sneer. And that is attention seeking.

Edited June 12, 2004 by AndyThorley

[The Cheat]

ok, lemme start by sayin I am not goth, i dont dress goth, and i dont listen to goth music. But ive been a part of this discussion many times, and heard from many "goths". There seems to be four different types that call themselves "goth". Sorry for generalizing, but i have to.

a) Teens who shop at hot topic and hot topic only, wear lots of dark makeup, and listen to 'goth' music (whatever that is). They like to look as scary as possible when going to the mall, so they can frighten small children and their parents.

People, mostly teens, who are always depressed. Wear dark clothes, may or may not occasionally wear something else. They see themselves as individuals, nonconformists. May or may not wear black makeup.

c) Loners who tend to be deep thinkers. They like Edgar Allen Poe. Often poets, musicians or artists. Generally solemn, but (unlike group are not dead against smiling. If they usually wear dark clothes, its just to go along with their mood, not to make a fashion statement.

d) practice wiccan, think they are real vampires, or something else satanic.

ok so, which are the true goths?

we can rule out group A. They are posers. They like the look, they like thinking it sets them apart, but they are the sheep. CLOTHES DO NOT MAKE A REAL GOTH. Anyone who falls into b,c, or d, would agree. most people who consider themselves goth are not wiccan or satanic.

we can rule out group D. Satanic and goth are not interchangeable words, contrary to popular belief. Not all satanic/wiccan people consider themselves goth, and

In my opinion, group C is the true definition of a modern Goth. To be goth, you do not have to always be depressed, and you can wear colors other than black. and you definately do not have to wear bondage pants and makeup like Alice Cooper. But you do have to think deeply and 'darkly' (One goth once said, if you dont like Poe, you arent goth. Thats not entirely true, but...) I think what i wrote for group C is a pretty good definition of goths.

So what about Group B? this is probably the most controversial group, cuz they cant be ruled in or out immediately. Some of them will turn into group c, some of them will grow out of it. I think what decides whether they are really, truly goths is their reasoning... if they think they are goth solely because of being depressed and wear black, they arent really. if they do it just to rebel, or be seen as an individual they are not really goths, tho most people will label them as gothic, and they will defend that label, because they think it makes them different.

ok so that is my long winded, logically broken down opinion. if yours is different, thats ok with me, you can argue your point, just dont start bashing me for my view.

[tendo]

thats horrible...im gonna bash u for your views... lol j/p

that seems pretty rite...i fall into a couple lol, i think darkly and somewhat depressing, i LOVE Poe, i WANT TO BE (not think i am) a vampire...i buy some clothes at hot topic, and i do like the look (i dont like calling myself goth at all, but when i do, i use this term "aesthetic demi goth"), but i definitely do not fall into group d...lol so, i guess i waver in the other 3 groups...

[Selene]

Goths... bunch of boring freaks who have nothin better to do with their time.

Who cares the world is in enuff trouble without these

[Novo]

Okay.. I skipped the last 3 posts so If I say something answered in the above please ignore it...

Theres a handy title for the amassing amount of little newbies everywhere, Punk,skater,Anarchist,Goth Whatever you try to be... To TRULY be one of these people you need to believe in what they represent.. to be goth you need to believe in the Bueaty of Depression, to find balance with the dark, And honestly punk is nothing more than a genre of music and Is not really something worth defining skating? hell if you do it because you enjoy it then why not, But dont go around claiming you are just to fit in... and anarchy???? BOY I have had so many little punk ass kids walk up to me and tell me there a anarchist, When I asked why, The MOST intelligent response I recieved is that They didnt like having to obey laws.

This is what the majority of our youth has reach and by the time most of us are the in our 30's we will probably have made the hell hole of a planet called earth even worse, (Assuming we havent spontanisouly(Sp I know) combusted from trying so hard to fit into the clique thats anti-clique) Thus said your not any of these things unless OTHER people label you that,Even If they told you that you were a Punk and you were a Goth you would care no more nor less because you believed in it not because of other people but your own strict and careful evalution, All said I personally think this thread should be locked because I had to try about 5 times in the typing of this not to start cussing about posers and homophobes