Doctor claims he has evidence of the afterlif

[LtSparkles]

There is no "of course" when it comes to this... At this point in our knowledge, to claim that NDEs provide strong evidence that the soul exists independently of the body, and that there is an afterlife awaiting that soul (that just happens to coincide with the beliefs and wishes of the near-death experient) is premature, to say the least.

NDEs has been reproduced with ketamine (related to phencyclidine)aka PCP.

Ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, out-of-body experiences, strange noises, etc...

This does not prove that the NDE is nothing but a set of physical responses, nor does it prove that there is no life after death.

It does, however, prove that an NDE is not compelling evidence for belief in either the existence of a separate consciousness or of an afterlife.

it proves that drugs make you experience spiritual stuff, duuuuh

[FlyingAngel]

A doctor should know better, sadly.

And what's your point? A doctor is not allowed to do research on paranormal field?

[Chronii]

Haven't read the whole thread, so don't know if anyone's said this already, but not everyone has the light experience.

My grandmother "fell through the bed during the surgery and was pulled deep into the earth, into the heat and the darkness". It was according to her the most horrible thing she has ever experienced.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Chronii

[Arpee]

According to the bible, no one is in hell. They are in sheol (graveyard) until Jesus return and the day of judgement comes and you will either worship god restlessly on his throne for all eternity (Revelations) or be put in the lake of fire (hell). And even in Islam, you don't go straight to hell, I think it's an intervention before it, so those people claiming to go to hell in back, is just going to a manifested place.

I believe that the mind is powerful and create and when you believe something it is created and thus hell is created and you can focus there if you think that is where you'll go but choose to leave when ever you realize that you CAN leave. That would explain these people going to hell automatically even though this is not preached in the religion.

The real state of being is bliss, happiness, and god/you/universe is really ENERGY and when you tap into that and see past the illusions of hell or whatever you'll be where you need to be in the after life, until then you'll just be journeying from one place to another just like some spirits do.

It doesn't matter what happen because in the end you'll see the truth. The powerful, beautiful, blissful, ecstatic, orgasmic, creative, souls that you truly are and you'll see your worth.

[Agent. Mulder]

Haven't read the whole thread, so don't know if anyone's said this already, but not everyone has the light experience.

My grandmother "fell through the bed during the surgery and was pulled deep into the earth, into the heat and the darkness". It was according to her the most horrible thing she has ever experienced.

Scary dream.

Maybe she thought she was a bad person, and was going to tell.

[Agent. Mulder]

There is a connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory that can not be easily explained away. People who have a NDE routinely describe what happened to them in terms that can only be called "holographic".

Examples please?

Ive yet to hear of anyone describe it as such.

I find this to be very evidential.

I dont.

Near death experiencers say things like "I literally felt like I was everywhere in the Universe at once" or "I felt an overwhelming feeling of oneness and connectedness."

Maybe some do. Ill take your word for it. But, then again, many people dont see anything at all. However, having your mind run all over the place from trauma or lack of oxygen will do that to you.

The Life Review is especially seems to be very holographic. Near death experiencers say they saw their entire life all at once (a "bolus" of information) and they felt the emotions and the feelings of the people they interacted with feeling like they literally became the other person.

Sure. Some may claim they saw/felt this i guess.

In a holographic piece of film all the information is spread throughout the entire film, with each piece containing the whole. Everything interpenetrates everything.

Youre, now talking about a man made peice of film? Why?

There is no easy way to explain why simple people, a housewife from Kansas or a truck driver from Southeast Georgia might describe what they experience in such holographic terms.

Ugh,so far, No One has claimed that. Youre the only one claiming this is somehow "holographic".

There is also a connection between quantum physics and NDE's. They say things like "time and space didn't seem to exist" or "I saw more colors than normal" (meaning they saw the entire light spectrum)

Umm, So theres a connection between comic books and NDEs then right? Since some people claimed to see batman in them. Theres also a connection between food and NDEs, because some people saw food in their NDEs. See how faulty your logic is?

or that there was "more consciousness than normal" or that the other side seemed even more real than this side.

What does that even mean? How can one even begin to measure something like that? Many things in dreams seem different. Theyre not real though.

Now this is strange because just recently in New Scientist Magazine Dr. Craig Hogan, the director of Fermi Lab said that in a hologram there is a certain inherent degree of blurriness. If the place we live in now is the holographic projection this side would have a certain amount of blurriness and the other side, the holographic film, that blurriness wouldn't exist. Now how would a near death experiencer know to say something like that?

Him and his holographic universe isnt proven in any way, and is still purely theoretical. I fail to see how talking about NDEs (which lack proof) and theoretical ideas can prove your point here.

Also, what NDE-er has claimed this?

Suffice it to say, there is a connection between NDEs, the holographic universe, and quantum physics which I find to be very evidential. It's as simple as this. We are presently living in the holographic projection and the other side or what we call Heaven is the original holographic film from which this side derives it's reality. Death is simply the change of consciousness from the projection into original holographic film. The physics of the other side is very different from this side but what it means is that whatever is "here" must also be there and whatever we focus our attention on that is what we will experience. A near death experiencer named Mark H said that he thought of a mountain he had seen as a child and in an instant he was there. On the other side all the information is spread throughout the entire film so whatever you "think of" that is what you will see and experience.

Suffice it to say, there is NO connection. Aside from the one you have made, which isnt based off much.

Guess what, some guy name agent mulder had a dream once, and once he THOUGHT about it, that particular event, person, place, or thing appeared in the dream.

Thats why your boy Mark H. had that happen to him.

Also, where is all your info coming from? Especially the NDE testimony your apparently using.

[mattavich123]

Do not make assumptions!!! ... I did my research and years ago actually three. I am not up on believing yet I have asked a few scientists of which you or neither anyone else here have. They do not have a clue, as do I not.

Dogs??? No soul as far as I know.

Are more of these tests needed??? Yes they are. Are you so quick to assume that you know this is not true??? Yes you are.

Just to let you know some tests by germans trying to measure the same concept have been done since that time yet no conclusive evidence was given.

Reseach does go a long way ... this is exactly the problems to which I have had with this particular forum. Assumptions. I did not say that I was right .. all I stated is that doctors and I have talked with them state that they do not know what to think.

I will stay away from the soul buisness for now and stick to what I know ... Geophysics, shadow people and Earthlights. To tell me different on these like I have been told is simply to call me a liar. Did not state this as fact but I will state the Ignus Fatuus and SP's as truth.

Sorry for being brash but you jogged in on me like I am a typical dum dum.

With that if I was like most people here I would say "dum dum ... I am no sucker but anyways lick me" ... sorry I like that metaphor.

We will never get anywhere with anything paranormal by disbelieving everything and making assumptions. I have tried to get debate on SP's and especially Earthlights only to be told you are wrong without debate. Want to give that a try??? I know squat about 21 ".3" grams as you did some research after reading my post "see that could be an assumption". I do know enough to try anyone here out on the others.

We know diddly squat about the universe and even our Earth. Some screwy things need to be researched.

A soul or no soul .. only time will tell.

If we were to attribute souls to living organisms I wold say a dog has one.

On what basis do you say they don't?

Also, the reason no one has repeated the test is because it is STUPID.

The mere fact that a perceived weight loss after death is contributed to the loss of the "soul" is plain ignorant. The fact that he was researching the soul and attibutes the loss in weight to the soul is evidence that the test results are false. They prove nothing. They have not been corroborated by other scientists and at the end of the day if there is a weight loss then that is all that is proven. that there is a weight loss after death.

In no way do these tests prove a soul has left the body.

I'm sorry but you keep on running with this and it needed nipping in the bud.

Edited January 30, 2011 by mattavich123

[White Crane Feather]

OBEs do not have to happen while near death. There are some that beleive you leave your body every night while you sleep.

[mattavich123]

OBEs do not have to happen while near death. There are some that beleive you leave your body every night while you sleep.

Well the fact is no one has been able to prove anything so I guess we will never know.

Unless of course it is true, in which case i'm sure some evidence will appear soon, or should have already....

[White Crane Feather]

Animals have souls. But not like ours

Edited January 31, 2011 by Seeker79

[White Crane Feather]

Well the fact is no one has been able to prove anything so I guess we will never know.

Unless of course it is true, in which case i'm sure some evidence will appear soon, or should have already....

Not for a very long time. Technology is not ready yet. I suspect when we start building bilogical machines we might be able to dive into the subject better. Also science is reduction oriented spirits are probably a highly organized phenominon much like life itself. Reductionist methods will never work. It's like trying tk look at a galaxy with a microscope your looking the wrong direction you need a telescope.

[Agent. Mulder]

Animals have souls. But not like ours

Well, we being animals ourselves, that seems its a given.

Again, assuming that the soul is something real and that exists.

[mattavich123]

Not for a very long time. Technology is not ready yet. I suspect when we start building bilogical machines we might be able to dive into the subject better. Also science is reduction oriented spirits are probably a highly organized phenominon much like life itself. Reductionist methods will never work. It's like trying tk look at a galaxy with a microscope your looking the wrong direction you need a telescope.

If we don't have the technology why are you so sure it's true?

Do you have evidence?

[mattavich123]

Well, we being animals ourselves, that seems its a given.

Again, assuming that the soul is something real and that exists.

Well that is assuming we are more special than animals.

The facts say the only difference between us and dogs is our evolutionary path.

Funny how we think we're superior.

[FlyingAngel]

Well that is assuming we are more special than animals.

The facts say the only difference between us and dogs is our evolutionary path.

Funny how we think we're superior.

Of course we are superior

[Chronii]

Animals have souls. But not like ours

Explain.

Of course we are superior

All animals believe they are the center of the universe (except the ones who are intelligent enough to realize they aren't, of course).

You are no different. You are not superior, you just think you are, like most other creatures.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Chronii

[mattavich123]

Of course we are superior

We are superior in the form of intelligence, but we are only as evolved as every other living creature on this planet.

A few million years ago, we were much less intelligent. We are also an animal just like a dog. We just *think* we are somethign special because we became self aware.

[Chronii]

We are superior in the form of intelligence, but we are only as evolved as every other living creature on this planet.

A few million years ago, we were much less intelligent. We are also an animal just like a dog. We just *think* we are somethign special because we became self aware.

This. Except we are still animals, being more intelligent doesn't erase the fact that we are almost furless apes.

EDIT: Whoops, failed to read. Thought you said we "were" an animal just like a dog.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Chronii

[Agent. Mulder]

Well that is assuming we are more special than animals.

The facts say the only difference between us and dogs is our evolutionary path.

Funny how we think we're superior.

Well, as stated, were all animals. So, i dont see how only WE would have a "soul". Or why people would think so.

[Cryptozological Mascot]

It would seem that as the brain shuts down from lack of life giving blood flow, certain neurons and synapses would start firing in a kind of “Death Thro.” If we weren’t all wired roughly in the same way, then we would all have completely different experiences: Azalin could possibly be held by God’s loving embrace while Randi might fly with pink elephants. Who knows? However, there seems to be only a couple of different types of experiences: The classic white light and tunnel, nothingness, or for the select few, hell in the form of a conscious absence of love.

I had always felt that the true afterlife experience couldn’t be shared with the living because as Eldorado pointed out, dead is dead. However, a few years ago I was jolted out of that superstition.

My father – in – law and his brother are Muslims from North Africa. After a heart attack, his brother died for several minutes before he was resuscitated by paramedics. Later, he told us all that he had seen a man whom he had said was Jesus. Jesus, it seems, told him that he wasn’t done here on earth yet and that he needed to return to his wife and children. After being released from the hospital, he started going to a non-denominational Christian church and lived for a good number of years afterward.

This has always left a question lingering with me: How could a devote Muslim see someone whom he had never believed to be a spiritual creature, but rather a great teacher when he died? This experience obviously rocked his world and definitely made me reevaluate mine!

[FlyingAngel]

We are superior in the form of intelligence, but we are only as evolved as every other living creature on this planet.

A few million years ago, we were much less intelligent. We are also an animal just like a dog. We just *think* we are somethign special because we became self aware.

Yes. Intelligent + dominated the world. That make us superior (compare to other animals, not the center of the universe).

[mattavich123]

Yes. Intelligent + dominated the world. That make us superior (compare to other animals, not the center of the universe).

Do we really dominate the world?

There are many other life forms on this planet which have an element of control over our future.

I'd say the world is dominated by the oceans, there are far more living creatures in the oceans than Humans. We are struggling to fight off the common cold and making it stronger too.

The only special accomplishment of our existence is our influence on the planet. Apart from that, we are potentially just another brick in the wall. I would place a bet that we won't out survive other species of animal on this planet.

The snake is the animal which inhabits most of the earth without the use of any typical limbs. The only place it can't habit is the colder parts of the world. The snake alone will out live our existence.

[mattavich123]

It would seem that as the brain shuts down from lack of life giving blood flow, certain neurons and synapses would start firing in a kind of “Death Thro.” If we weren’t all wired roughly in the same way, then we would all have completely different experiences: Azalin could possibly be held by God’s loving embrace while Randi might fly with pink elephants. Who knows? However, there seems to be only a couple of different types of experiences: The classic white light and tunnel, nothingness, or for the select few, hell in the form of a conscious absence of love.

I had always felt that the true afterlife experience couldn’t be shared with the living because as Eldorado pointed out, dead is dead. However, a few years ago I was jolted out of that superstition.

My father – in – law and his brother are Muslims from North Africa. After a heart attack, his brother died for several minutes before he was resuscitated by paramedics. Later, he told us all that he had seen a man whom he had said was Jesus. Jesus, it seems, told him that he wasn’t done here on earth yet and that he needed to return to his wife and children. After being released from the hospital, he started going to a non-denominational Christian church and lived for a good number of years afterward.

This has always left a question lingering with me: How could a devote Muslim see someone whom he had never believed to be a spiritual creature, but rather a great teacher when he died? This experience obviously rocked his world and definitely made me reevaluate mine!

People react differently to the implications of near death.

My Dad's heart stopped for minutes. But he saw nothing at all. It is also not uncommon for people to change their outlook on life when they are nearly killed in car accidents.

Why not ask a boxer what ti feels like to be unconscious?

Many see "things" while their brain is in a state of disarray.

My Dad actually told me before he died(for real) that he will make sure I win the lottery when he dies. It has never happened. So that test failed.

How awesome is that? I actually carried out a test to see if someone can affect the living world form death! Test results? Negative.

[zenfahr]

Yes. Intelligent + dominated the world. That make us superior (compare to other animals, not the center of the universe).

dont think you have a real definition of either word, intelligent or domination. There are ways animals and insects are far more intelligent than we are. You would not understand this unless you were to live in their world. Their envrionment. Yes we are able to slice an atom, which is something that suits our need in our environment. Now take an ant for instance, an ant can communicate and manipulate their environment in ways we can only fathom. So I would say that intelligence is subjective. As far as domination.... were do you get the idea that we dominate the world? If you are talking numbers.... the insects have us beat there. Or perhaps you are thinking about our ability to manipulate or destroy OUR world. I say OUR, because, even if we kill ourselves off, (which is a pretty dumb thing to do)we still would not have destroyed the world. There will still be plants, insects, and other creatures that would benifit from our destruction. Even here we see that insects are capable of doing the same thing on their level. They populate and eat untill there is nothing left.

So as far as this debate goes, I say if I have a soul, so does every living creature on this planet. Yeah im including shrubs as well.

[mattavich123]

dont think you have a real definition of either word, intelligent or domination. There are ways animals and insects are far more intelligent than we are. You would not understand this unless you were to live in their world. Their envrionment. Yes we are able to slice an atom, which is something that suits our need in our environment. Now take an ant for instance, an ant can communicate and manipulate their environment in ways we can only fathom. So I would say that intelligence is subjective. As far as domination.... were do you get the idea that we dominate the world? If you are talking numbers.... the insects have us beat there. Or perhaps you are thinking about our ability to manipulate or destroy OUR world. I say OUR, because, even if we kill ourselves off, (which is a pretty dumb thing to do)we still would not have destroyed the world. There will still be plants, insects, and other creatures that would benifit from our destruction. Even here we see that insects are capable of doing the same thing on their level. They populate and eat untill there is nothing left.

So as far as this debate goes, I say if I have a soul, so does every living creature on this planet. Yeah im including shrubs as well.

Very true, spider silk is still something we are unable to understand. The strength, weight, density and how they create this silk is a mystery. The material is stronger than steel.