ambelamba Posted February 16, 2010 #1 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I keep forgetting that UM is like a refuge or sanctuary. This is a gathering place for people who are already pounded hard by skepticism in real worlds. I don't wanna sound disrespectful or even insulting. But let's face it. Lot of the forum members are likely to be ridiculed by their real world peers. People already give them hard times. When I realized this I came to believe that I should just avoid the delicate issues and be quiet about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 16, 2010 #2 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I can hear what you are saying - and I would agree that many personalities which can be encountered here, cannot be met in the real world. But on the other hand, if the same thought is continued, the sceptics here also must be lacking the opportunity to express their scepticism elsewhere... So, this then starts to resemble some sort of Paralympics, and again like in any sports competition, the strongest must win. We should not ignore the availability of specialized religious and scepticism sites, where each side can enjoy liaising within its preferred socium, but if they are attracted to this conflict-type site then it must somehow fit their spiritual requests! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted February 16, 2010 #3 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I keep forgetting that UM is like a refuge or sanctuary. This is a gathering place for people who are already pounded hard by skepticism in real worlds. I don't wanna sound disrespectful or even insulting. But let's face it. Lot of the forum members are likely to be ridiculed by their real world peers. People already give them hard times. When I realized this I came to believe that I should just avoid the delicate issues and be quiet about it. I don't know if I agree with that. I never feel pounded by skepticism in the real world. I think that this is the place where people are more comfortable saying what they really feel or believe. I think it's easier to discuss things like religion or politics here than in real life. People who post here, especially this forum, are aware that it's a debate type discussion board. And, if they don't like the way things are going they can just stop posting, then they wouldn't get pounded. I've learned more about skepticism here then I've ever learned in real life. Because of this, I have a greater understanding of skepticism and more respect for it. I don't agree with it all the time, but I understand it better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaoszerg Posted February 16, 2010 #4 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I don't think people come here as a safe Haven, I know this place can get rough at times, and we all can exchange harsh words at times but to be honest we are a big family here, though we may scream at one and other in one thread we can get on perfectly fine in another. Though there are times I can be a jerk to people I do not hate anyone......well.....maybe Guyver for subjecting me to hey Mickey in another thread...some things are just unforgivable!!!!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted February 16, 2010 #5 Share Posted February 16, 2010 No need to "go easy" on us. I've found that my Faith has been strengthened through what I have learned on these forums, and this is in no small part due to sceptic who often plays as a sounding board for beliefs. if you're surrounded all the time by people who are more likely to agree with you, it fosters an attitude where you may not look as critically at your views. Having that critical eye to sound out the validity of ideas has been instrumental in my life as a Christian - though it's not always helpful, it can often be so. I have found this, balanced with my study as a Christian and discussion with other Christians has helped provide me with what I think is a fairly balanced (though clearly Christian) outlook on Life, the Universe and Everything As long as you aren't actually insulting us for what we do or believe, then I say bring it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranormalcy Posted February 16, 2010 #6 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) There are some good points here, and I'd like to speak for myself and not so much as a UM staff member as I might not be able to address this issue accurately as a representative. There ARE a certain few "corners" or subforums on UM where some things are considered "a given" - the Psychic Abilities forum, for example, is, among other things, for people that are "working on/developing" their "abilities" and want to teach and learn from peers of similar experience and thoughts - this means that while not a hard and fast or concrete rule, a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is needed by any skeptical readers or posters that wander into that forum, and there is no reason to go in and start telling people why they're wrong, over and over. Simply going in there to try to disabuse people of or even ridicule their "mistaken notions" that they can make "psi balls" or start fires with their minds, is really pretty low, in my own opinion. You might as well be posting in a Christian board and insisting to every other poster in it why religion is wrong or has no value or validity - if you want to "shoot fish in a barrel", then you likely don't have very much else to do than criticize others, instead of making constructive, informative posts and threads and discussions in a POSITIVE note and give your own thoughts on what you think IS real, rather than what you think is NOT; why are you right, not why others are wrong. Again, this is not to say there is anything wrong with presenting alternate evidence or interpretations or actively refuting or applying scientific methods to expose flaws or inconsistencies, but there should be a certain level of understanding that there is a practical, genteel limit or polite consideration, especially for particular forums here at UM where an aggressively or insistent skeptical viewpoint, as much as you might think otherwise, is not going to always be the right thing for someone to read. And I say this also as someone who likes to think himself at least a realist on what I possibly can be, though I have a pet interest in some psi abilities and poltergeists and anomalies (ghosts, UFOs) which may be misunderstood and misidentified manifestations of something else not really properly addressed yet. But overall, no, I don't believe the great majority of things posted, claimed, remembered or believed here at UM - this doesn't mean people are necessarily lying, as I imagine most believe what they say, remember, etc. But I can still interact with the people that do believe these things, civilly, even if directly disagreeing, and I don't know why more people seem to have trouble doing the same. Edited February 16, 2010 by Paranormalcy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaoszerg Posted February 16, 2010 #7 Share Posted February 16, 2010 There are some good points here, and I'd like to speak for myself and not so much as a UM staff member as I might not be able to address this issue accurately as a representative. There ARE a certain few "corners" or subforums on UM where some things are considered "a given" - the Psychic Abilities forum, for example, is, among other things, for people that are "working on/developing" their "abilities" and want to teach and learn from peers of similar experience and thoughts - this means that while not a hard and fast or concrete rule, a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is needed by any skeptical readers or posters that wander into that forum, and there is no reason to go in and start telling people why they're wrong, over and over. Simply going in there to try to disabuse people of or even ridicule their "mistaken notions" that they can make "psi balls" or start fires with their minds, is really pretty low, in my own opinion. You might as well be posting in a Christian board and insisting to every other poster in it why religion is wrong or has no value or validity - if you want to "shoot fish in a barrel", then you likely don't have very much else to do than criticize others, instead of making constructive, informative posts and threads and discussions in a POSITIVE note and give your own thoughts on what you think IS real, rather than what you think is NOT; why are you right, not why others are wrong. Again, this is not to say there is anything wrong with presenting alternate evidence or interpretations or actively refuting or applying scientific methods to expose flaws or inconsistencies, but there should be a certain level of understanding that there is a practical, genteel limit or polite consideration, especially for particular forums here at UM where an aggressively or insistent skeptical viewpoint, as much as you might think otherwise, is not going to always be the right thing for someone to read. And I say this also as someone who likes to think himself at least a realist on what I possibly can be, though I have a pet interest in some psi abilities and poltergeists and anomalies (ghosts, UFOs) which may be misunderstood and misidentified manifestations of something else not really properly addressed yet. But overall, no, I don't believe the great majority of things posted, claimed, remembered or believed here at UM - this doesn't mean people are necessarily lying, as I imagine most believe what they say, remember, etc. But I can still interact with the people that do believe these things, civilly, even if directly disagreeing, and I don't know why more people seem to have trouble doing the same. If you are asking skeptics to suspend their disbelief then you are asking us to just have faith. If you come on and claim to have x,y,z powers or not only that that you are a demon or werewolf or giant man eating turnip, you will be asked to prove it or called out on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted February 16, 2010 #8 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) If you are asking skeptics to suspend their disbelief then you are asking us to just have faith. Faith is for believers. No one is asking you to believe it. Listening is not the same as believing, or even accepting. It's just listening. If you come on and claim to have x,y,z powers or not only that that you are a demon or werewolf or giant man eating turnip, you will be asked to prove it or called out on it. Not at all. There is nothing wrong with being asked to accept certain assumptions for the sake of a given argument. It is a very common practice, done so that the topic can remain focused rather than wandering to a different subject. Let's say that you are discussing the construction of the pyramid, but you want to remain in the realm of engineering. You can say that, for the sake of your argument, you are assuming that the work was done in a conventional manner. This will keep the theories about UFO's, psychic powers, or various other beliefs, out of the discussion. You can also do the reverse. You can say that, for the purposes of discussion, you are assuming work was not done in a conventional manner, in which case the discussion will pretty much focus on the...other...explanations. Now, this doesn't mean that you can go claiming things willy-nilly. Just because we assume the existence of demons, werewolves, and man-eating turnips, your arguments can still be examined for internal consistency. To follow our previous example, if you claim the pyramid was built by UFO's, you can be questioned as to the purpose of transport sleds. If you claim blocks were poured into place, you can be questioned about quarry marks. Edited February 16, 2010 by aquatus1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marby Posted February 16, 2010 #9 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) UM is the only forum that I have not abandoned after a couple of months. The reason? As chaoszerg said, it's a big family. I disappear for weeks and sometimes months at a time, but I always return, and when I do disappear, it's not because I "need" a break, but rather, because I honestly don't have the time. I think it's amazing that skeptics, believers, and those somewhere in the middle can come here and have constructive debates. Even when we agree to disagree, which is often the case, and even when things get heated, once those people find each other in another thread, there are rarely hard feelings. There is a respect level here that allows for this, and it's due in part to great administration, as well as a great group of members. In two years, there is one person that I refuse to talk to, and I haven't bothered to block this person. I just don't acknowledge them. No problem. That said, I agree with Paranormalcy that it is pretty low to go onto a thread where the suspension of belief is required and insult everyone there. As a skeptic about most everything, there is a fine line between questioning people and insulting what they hold dear, and I do my best not to cross it. I think that most people do. There's no need to go easy on anyone as long as you present your side of things in a respectful or even humorous manner. Edited February 16, 2010 by Marby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 16, 2010 #10 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I think Ambie pointed to a very serious problem. Without generalization, there are some people here who get engaged in the discussions, KNOWING upfront that the sceptical opinion of the opponents would be insulting for them, and possibly even trying to provoke such insulting opinion for the purposes of assuming martyrdom or some other personal purposes. Example of such is someone claiming a prophetic status and patronising other users. In all other respects these remain just "other users", and I to date fail to work out some sensible approach to their posts, which are sometimes shocking for me. One must really be a Psychologist or a Psychotherapist to handle such exchanges is a safe fashion - but I also come here to express my opinion and read the opinions of others, so when a belief, or even a delusion is presented as an "opinion" it is hard to react to it without non-deliberately hurting the opponent. Religions are an interesting subject for discussion, but this suggests discussing their contents and common practices, not the practices of an individual believer or a small group of such. I do not see personal interpretations of the scriptures as belonging to this subforum at all, as the collision of them causes that very conflict which we all want to avoid. It seems that there has to be some special Theology section for this type of discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqgumby Posted February 16, 2010 #11 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I don't believe any of you. *flies away on his statically charged electrokinesis propelled invisible magic carpet* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted February 16, 2010 #12 Share Posted February 16, 2010 No need to "go easy" on us. I've found that my Faith has been strengthened through what I have learned on these forums, and this is in no small part due to sceptic who often plays as a sounding board for beliefs. if you're surrounded all the time by people who are more likely to agree with you, it fosters an attitude where you may not look as critically at your views. Having that critical eye to sound out the validity of ideas has been instrumental in my life as a Christian - though it's not always helpful, it can often be so. I agree that discussion here with skeptics and atheists can build one's Faith, as it forces you to think and judge what you believe and why. I just flat decided one day that I would not allow my Faith to be shaken. So, in that sense I guess I am a fanatic. But, I try to keep an open mind and not abuse others. The same thing can be said about the Crypto section. If all there are is Skeptics pounding on newcomers who post how fairies live in their flowerpot threads, then the Forum would die. But, I find that many good discussions do come out of even improbable threads. Plus, I do Devil's Advicate there sometimes. I think whether someone needs to have it "taken easy on them", is a factor of how new they are, what their known personality is and what they are posting about. People that post ridiculous things, like "I iz gawd", should be free to be ridiculed. Some people clearly are asking for it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted February 16, 2010 #13 Share Posted February 16, 2010 You can take it easy on them... I'm not. If I see someone post something I disagree with and I feel like discussing it, I will, and I will do so as harshly as required to get my point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted February 16, 2010 #14 Share Posted February 16, 2010 It's a shame that your first tactic to getting your points across is harshness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted February 16, 2010 #15 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) <snipped for emphasis> UM is the only forum that I have not abandoned after a couple of months. The reason? As chaoszerg said, it's a big family. I disappear for weeks and sometimes months at a time, but I always return, and when I do disappear, it's not because I "need" a break, but rather, because I honestly don't have the time. I think it's amazing that skeptics, believers, and those somewhere in the middle can come here and have constructive debates. I couldn't agree more Marby, great post. Some of the most amazing people I've ever met, have been on UM. Life-long friends, for sure. The main reason I post here is because often faith/beliefs profoundly affect our cultures, but especially our children, who are our future. I was raised Catholic, and there was a strong belief in demons, or at least I was taught that in catechism/CCD classes. This indoctrination had a profound impact on me as a child. I had experiences that doctors at the time, couldn't find the cause to. I was eventually told (by the church) that these were manifestations of demons. They were not, but rather a malfunction of the temporal lobes, aggravated by seismic activity, as I lived on a fault-line in California at the time. After moving from the area, the experiences of that nature, disappeared. Belief in god has many negative side-effects, and especially on children. When the positives of belief/faith outweighs the negative impacts on our world, then perhaps debate on religious matters won't be such a hot topic? The only reason it is a hot topic is because of the negative side-effects. Our children are most often left to their own. Adults forget what it was like to be a child. Children are almost always in a brainwave state of Theta, until they reach puberty. This means their imaginations are very active. Teaching superstition, i.e., Demons, Satan, can cause much distress on their little psyches, and sometimes fear and depression, as was the case with this child below. This is far more common that most realize. "This picture was drawn by a 7-year old boy who showed many signs of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. He said the vision came to him at night, and that it was very frightening for him. His father did not think his experiences were significant. Until he talked to me, that is. (Neuroscientist - Todd Murphy) One conversation later, that kid knew that God was not punishing him with a demon, and that many people had similar experiences. He was not alone with it any longer." Source Edited February 16, 2010 by V... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted February 16, 2010 #16 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) To suggest skeptics should go easy on believers can look a tad patronizing for the believers, as if to say look its not their fault... ... is what you would say to a child that find its hard to learn... I say without BOTH sides...using their arguments in all threads.. this would be a pretty slow board and borring to say the least People like - Mr Walker - love to see a challenge put up by skeptics.. it gives him a lot to work on... now if we all just nodded along with each other.. this place would just die Arguments from both sides are what makes this place tick...so I say it again both sides should be as they are... Listening is the key factor..but I believe a lot of us do so. Edited February 16, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 16, 2010 #17 Share Posted February 16, 2010 BM, but arguing for the sake of arguing is not very productive (and you may see it yourself watching the circulation of the same questions, references and answers for ages). Spirituality as an area of culture has a lot of interesting issues to discuss and possibly argue about, these themes are not restricted to Christian scriptures and religious beliefs at all; we just have here several people who want to use the board exclusively for proselyting and do not allow any other topics (remember what was done to the God thread?). The boys were told in their churches to go and practice such discussions, before they release them into open environment to walk door to door, in many cases this is as simple as that, but of course not in all cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted February 16, 2010 #18 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Not once have I suggested people argue for the sake of it....please read my post correctly thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted February 16, 2010 #19 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) BM, but arguing for the sake of arguing is not very productive (and you may see it yourself watching the circulation of the same questions, references and answers for ages). Spirituality as an area of culture has a lot of interesting issues to discuss and possibly argue about, these themes are not restricted to Christian scriptures and religious beliefs at all; we just have here several people who want to use the board exclusively for proselyting and do not allow any other topics (remember what was done to the God thread?). The boys were told in their churches to go and practice such discussions, before they release them into open environment to walk door to door, in many cases this is as simple as that, but of course not in all cases. you make a good point one .. its equates arguing about arguing, disregarding the point..which is a form of proselytizing and annoying in its own right IMO.... argumentation has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing...connvincing another of one's pov...... Edited February 16, 2010 by S♥ ♥ ♥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 16, 2010 #20 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Not once have I suggested people argue for the sake of it....please read my post correctly thanks Not you! You just mentioned MW, who for at least 1 year I can observe NEVER read any reference, provided by his opponent. He still does not know difference between objective and subjective, and does not WANT to know. Same refers to Iams - so their is arguing for the sake of arguing, despite I can see Iams tries to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyver Posted February 16, 2010 #21 Share Posted February 16, 2010 To suggest skeptics should go easy on believers can look a tad patronizing for the believers, as if to say – look its not their fault... ... is what you would say to a child that find its hard to learn... That's a good point BM. I first read the OP a little late at night while tired and responded. After, when I thought about it some - I think you have a good point there. It's almost like Ambelamba is suggesting that skeptics take it easy on believers around here because...."after all - they're not quite as enlightened as we are." Like faith or belief is some sort of negative. This is a relatively "modern" opinion. It used to be that being called faithful was a compliment. In any event it's quite clear that Ambelamba finds skepticism superior to belief or faith. That is an opinion and he is certainly entitled to his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted February 16, 2010 #22 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) Not you! You just mentioned MW, who for at least 1 year I can observe NEVER read any reference, provided by his opponent. He still does not know difference between objective and subjective, and does not WANT to know. Same refers to Iams - so their is arguing for the sake of arguing, despite I can see Iams tries to get it right. Ever tried agreeing with MW to see what happens? I have..and noticed he isnt interested in my agreeable posts...so he will skip the agreeable ones easy... he like so many are only after a real challenge..and hey he admits he likes it..and so forth...he wants to change peoples minds, has even said so.... if we all agree with him.. with no arguement....he would find it all at a loss and pointless A lot of others just like to argue for the sake of seeing it all as - tit for tat.. thats just stupid....I might not have previously suggested this before but I am now Edited February 16, 2010 by Beckys_Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eqgumby Posted February 16, 2010 #23 Share Posted February 16, 2010 BM, but arguing for the sake of arguing is not very productive (and you may see it yourself watching the circulation of the same questions, references and answers for ages). Spirituality as an area of culture has a lot of interesting issues to discuss and possibly argue about, these themes are not restricted to Christian scriptures and religious beliefs at all; we just have here several people who want to use the board exclusively for proselyting and do not allow any other topics (remember what was done to the God thread?). The boys were told in their churches to go and practice such discussions, before they release them into open environment to walk door to door, in many cases this is as simple as that, but of course not in all cases. Mmm, I think you may just be assuming someone with an opinion counter to yours is arguing for the sake of arguing. You just mentioned MW, who for at least 1 year I can observe NEVER read any reference, provided by his opponent. He still does not know difference between objective and subjective, and does not WANT to know. Same refers to Iams - so their is arguing for the sake of arguing, despite I can see Iams tries to get it right. You say these guys have not read sources etc, but that's only because they have never swapped sides or said, "OK, you're right". It may just be that their sources didn't sway them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 16, 2010 #24 Share Posted February 16, 2010 That's a good point BM. I first read the OP a little late at night while tired and responded. After, when I thought about it some - I think you have a good point there. It's almost like Ambelamba is suggesting that skeptics take it easy on believers around here because...."after all - they're not quite as enlightened as we are." Like faith or belief is some sort of negative. This is a relatively "modern" opinion. It used to be that being called faithful was a compliment. In any event it's quite clear that Ambelamba finds skepticism superior to belief or faith. That is an opinion and he is certainly entitled to his opinion. Guyver, any modern person uses some 20,000 virtual Egyptian slaves to just live a simple lifestyle... The ability of us to use them was developed by... sceptics! This is a fact from which Ambie starts his reasoning. As I was trying to explain once to PA, we inherited from the believers only a horse cart and wax candles. And the Bible of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted February 16, 2010 #25 Share Posted February 16, 2010 That's a good point BM. I made a point of saying as such because...I placed myself in the shoes of a religious person...and didnt like it....so I wouldnt want to see a christian say the same for skeptics... for I KNOW for a fact we skeptics would go all lola on that if it was posted LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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