Helen of Annoy Posted February 23, 2010 #76 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Thank you for expanding on that, Helen – I do see there are differences. That surely translates as “football”…… right? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 23, 2010 Author #77 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) Show me where Oh and please do show me where Sorry, what? Um, what? Show me where?? my logic? russians? sorry what do you mean? ???? From where do you get these ideas? None of this is true but please show me where i said this, or control your bombardment of accusations I summed it up a little if you don't mind... Taking someones words out-of-context, and arranging them so that he would look stupid, is a well-known disinformation technique On the other hand, im addressing your posts in entirety, not filtering through it like you are doing Ok, so far youve claimed - that i said every Croat hates me and therefore has no right to speak their mind that i badmouthed Kosovars (?) that i post from neo-nazi, ultra-nationalist and illegal group web sites that im issuing a call for killing westerners (what??) I have no desire to repeat everything all over again, so find answers to your questions in my previous posts. I didnt ask you to repeat anything you already said, i asked you to show me where i said these things. Im now quoting you below... Solar posted a list of links that is prepared by one of numerous ultra-nationalist groups Let me see... Links you posted, texts you pasted, everything prepared by ultra-nationalist neo-nazi formally illegal groups, supported by radical Serbian parties Ok here is my original response below, from post 52. a few pages back, which you are ignoring with skill... Serb Cleansing Drive-by kills Kosovo Serb teenager (scroll down) - WARNING GORE Serbian Organ Harvesting La caccia: Io e i criminali di guerra Gradual ethnic cleansing. the coloured parts is serb population The Nato commander has likened the recent violence to ethnic cleansing An incident which led to the worst ethnic clashes in Kosovo for four years may have been based more on rumour than fact This shows all symptoms of an engineered crisis, preparing the grounds for illegal indepence. In short words, creating history (his story) ... Albanian Narco-Terrorism: The Columbian Syndrome in the Balkans A long road from Kosovo to Kurdistan Wikipedia Serbian ortodox diocese of Raska and Prisren Wikipedia Wikipedia Serbian Ortodox Church website British Broadcasting Company British Broadcasting Company New Serbian Political Thought (a theory of politics and social research magazine) Asia Times in that order "...Links you posted, texts you pasted, everything prepared by ultra-nationalist neo-nazi formally illegal groups..." ... oh these are obviously nazi and ultra-nationalist illegal groups. Lets see now the texts ive pasted in post 17... "...Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2..." (Official NATO site) "The United Nations Charter is the treaty that forms and establishes the international organization called the United Nations." (Wikipedia) "The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) is the organ of the United Nations charged with the maintenance of international peace and security...Its powers are exercised through United Nations Security Council Resolutions." (Wikipedia) ...well thats clearly nazi, lets move on to posts 18 and 21... The centre for peace in the Balkans World Socialist Web Site Nuclear Age Peace Foundation Centre for research of globalisation ...yes these are clearly neo-nazi illegal organisations Ok this speaks for itself...lets move on You keep claiming that Albanians are drug dealers, ethnic cleansers and criminals. No, i just linked to articles It’s also spectacularly cheeky, arrogant and stupid to come to forums whose members are mostly from USA and UK and try to sell them ideology that calls for killing ‘westerners’, namely American and British. Do you really think you can make international community unrecognize a state, just by badmouthing its citizens? From where do you get these ideas? Some are serious accusations like the one where im supposedly "...selling my ideology that calls for killing ‘westerners’..." Youre crossing the line here so either quote me or control your bombardment If Solar doesn’t like it, he can kiss my resilient ass. Ok this isnt an accusation, but i posted it anyway so people can see it Edited February 23, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 23, 2010 Author #78 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) But, I finally see a point on which we agree Dont tell me, you thought that i support Garda Cara Lazara? Just as you thought that i am a SESELJ worshipper? And a Milosevic lover? These are all your ideas, i never gave any indication of it being so I mean wow, do i really give away an ultra-nationalistic, chauvinist impression?? cmon im a sweet guy, at least check out my profile As I said before, I completely understand your concern for your people and your country. I know youre a normal person (even cute to be honest), just dont make up things i supposedly said please... The reasons why I’m mad are: generalisations and arrogance. Well me too, but anyone can see who is generalizing here, just by reading the first two pages It’s not the fault of USA that we are behaving like idiots over here. We (our ancestors, that is) did that even before USA existed. Everyone pictures the Balkan people as hot-headed stereotypes, i know, but it doesnt have to mean necesseraly that we always were wackos, not more than any other nation... The west was always trying to divide us ...my country is in same kind of ****, up to neck as well. Rabid Croatian nationalists would, of course, like me to believe it’s Serbian fault... See thats what im talking about. Western spies control such "rabid" parties. Their goal - divide and conquer. Their technique - brainwashing the young population. These "intellectual infants" dont even realize it, but they are used to divide their own people, by spewing hatred I dont know how to "prove it", i thought it was always hidden in plain sight Now I’ll give you my view and I’d love to hear yours, but your personal view, not some copy/paste. I posted my personal view as soon as post 5. I dont know how you missed it, but go see it if you want Edited February 23, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 23, 2010 Author #79 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) So, I think this latest secession is bad because it opens door for further redesign of ex-Yu borders... Yes ofcourse. The Balkans always desperately needed stability. Thats exactly why the UN SC resolution 1244 is urging - 1) a guarantee of territorial integrity of Yugoslavian states ... but it also urges... 2) a practical self-autonomy for Kosovo These are the two main points of the UN SR 1244. One doesnt exclude the other, so i dont see why Serbia cant have its borders, and Kosovo have its autonomy - like always This is exactly why im against the independence, and why its illegal The UN has jurisdiction over Kosovo, but all of a sudden cant follow protocol?? Amend a single security resolution, a job they do all the time?? Something smells funky... Kosovo independence is legal only if - 1) enabled through a new security resolution, or 2) if the previous security resolution was modified (amended) Both of these are done through the Security Council and normally are everyday tasks of the UN Russia and China would have used their veto power, as permanent members of the Council, to forbid the independence of Kosovo. Kosovo independence would never pass legally. Then, the US and NATO skillfully used "human rights" and "democracy" as excuses, and quite literally by-passed the Security Council And the UN secretary general didnt have anything to say the first couple of weeks?? Well if he doesnt know what to say, who does?? He IS the UN secretary general right? Inner City Press ...The shifting ways Ban dealt with Kosovo -- going silent when asked about the legality from the UN perspective of recognizing the theretofore Serbian provinces' unilateral declaration of independence... Reuters - COUNCIL DEADLOCK ...U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was to address to Security Council on Sunday, diplomats said. Ban's office has kept silent on the issue of Kosovo's independence, leaving it in the hands of the council...... Vitaly Churkin, the ambassador of the Russian Federation to the UN, said a nine-year-old Security Council resolution and other documents required the U.N. mission in Kosovo, which has administered the region since 1999, to declare any declaration of independence null and void.... ...But Western countries dispute that reading and the council is deadlocked on the issue, a fact that prevented action at its last consultations on Kosovo last week. "We say there is nothing in the resolution that precludes independence," one Western diplomat said.... This is their mantra and yeah theres absolutely nothing that precludes independence, only the following paragraph - "...Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of the Security Resolution no.1244..." (Official NATO site) That basically means that all UN Member States (all countries of the world), are obliged to maintain the territorial integrity of Serbia. The idea is to put a stop on countless secessions (instability) on the Balkans. ...but in the same time it’s the only logical thing to do, since Serbs abandoned Kosovo... Woah wait right there.... abandoned or exiled? Please lets not ignore history... there were at least two major exodi of the Kosovo Serbs... The 1999 Kosovo War - its only normal to flee a war-raging province 2004 unrest in Kosovo - many Serbs exiled, including all the refugees that returned since 1999, over 8000 Serbs' homes destroyed by Albanians, 9,800 expelled. Do the math ...Not politically, but – correct me if I’m wrong – population-wise... Kosovo Albanians outbreeded the Kosovo Serbs. That doesnt mean Serbs "abandoned" Kosovo please... Just as average Croat wants to live in Zagreb, because it’s so in, so does average Serb want to move to Belgrade. Driving nice car if possible. Am I far from truth? Ofcourse, ofcourse, but does that give the right to the majority, to expel the minority? Lets look again at what happened... 2004 unrest in Kosovo "...Violent unrest in Kosovo, a Serbian province under United Nations administration, broke out on 17 March 2004. The Albanians' actions during the mass unrest were compared to ethnic cleansing[1],......many Serbs exiled, including all the refugees that returned since 1999, over 8000 Serbs' homes destroyed by Albanians, 9,800 expelled..." KLA "...the Kosovo Liberation Army or KLA was a Kosovar Albanian terrorist, secessionist and irredentist guerrilla organization which sought the separation of Kosovo from Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the 1990s.KLA campaign against Serbian security forces precipitated a major Yugoslav military crackdown which led to the Kosovo War of 1998-1999. Military intervention by Yugoslav security forces led by Slobodan Milosevic and Serb militias within Kosovo prompted an exodus of Kosovar Albanians, and a refugee crisis that eventually caused NATO to intervene militarily in order to stop what was widely identified as an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing..." Yes the Yugoslav army committed ethnic cleansing, but it was a counter-measure for the KLA activities, that led to the whole thing in the first place. This is another proof that the extensive Balkan crisis is engineered through the KLA and other terrorists. Is there a significant number of Serbian people from Kosovo who would seriously move back to Kosovo? Yes, people are eager to return to their homes. Its horrible to be exiled from your land. In ancient Greece, exile was a worse punishment than death. What’s the point of keeping it then? Kosovo is the cultural cradle of the Serbian people. I want you to understand that I don’t hate you and that I’m p***ed off because I don’t want you to die, not the other way around. If this show goes too far we’re screwed. Again. You and me were always on the same side. I just got shocked when i saw your accusations (assumptions). Im not some Seselj fan. In my opinion, throwing gasoline can’t put the fire out and that’s how I perceived your initial posts. I agree gasoline cant put the fire out but its not like i called for violence, i was only interested in peoples opinions on the legality I've noticed your analogy with USA/Mexico but there's a number of factors that make these situations incomparable Why is it incomparable? Using the unilateral logic of Kosovo nothing is incomparable. The latinos only need 1) a referendum in California, and 2) the support of a major military force, to have independence Edited February 23, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 23, 2010 Author #80 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I think Solar does not care about any opinions. read this please ... its my opening post, i dont know how you missed it All he wants is spreding propaganda Milosevic' style. ??? Please i would be delighted to see from where do you get this impression? Is it because of the neo-nazi, ultra-nationalist web sites i posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 24, 2010 Author #81 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Ofcourse you got carried away, you hate us serbs Jelena, I feel i owe you an apology for the above, putting words in your mouth. Im just used to dealing with Serb demonization, just as you are used to dealing with Seselj-style ideology. However i expect an apology from you too lol. Friends? and lets continue the legal part of the debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 24, 2010 #82 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Jelena, I feel i owe you an apology for the above, putting words in your mouth. Im just used to dealing with Serb demonization, just as you are used to dealing with Seselj-style ideology. However i expect an apology from you too lol. Friends? and lets continue the legal part of the debate... Mate, you obviously have to learn how to take the things easier. To me you do not appear as Seselj's supporter or an extremist of any kind, to me you appear rather as just a Serb. But you must learn how to get above, or beyond being a Serb. The World and its cultures are not limited to English, Indian, Chinese or a Serbian one. Its a bigger thing. I am a Russian (not a Russian Jew or a Russian Chechen). The first thing I was evaluating, when finding myself outside Russia was "who likes Russians and who does not". My discoveries were astonishing! The nations I go best with are South Africans, Greeks, Jews and... Germans. But the best of the best are Vietnamese - I had in Australia an experience of my wife (also a Russian) talking to one Vietnamese lady, vegetable dealer, at the market. Those days I had no job and was living for few years by selling antiques there... Next weekend I had this Vietnamese lady at my stall, bringing me a bag full of delights... for my wife. This lasted for 2 years, together with my unemployment. I had also a Hungarian folk there, also an antique dealer, and once our stalls were together. Important is that he was my friend, in the sense I could drop in to his place and have a beer or two with him, borrow money or lend him money, so full trust. He once saw this lady bringing me usual tribute, and asked her, what about giving to him too? She didnt react and left (her English was rather poor), so he asked me why did she bring me free vegies? When I said "because I am a Russian" he nearly had a heart attack. Hungarians hate Russians, we all know this, me and him included... You must shift to being a full Cosmopolitan, screw the Serbs, Russians, Croatians etc you name it. First of all we are all Homo Sapience, this includes Kosovo Albanians, if even they sometimes fail to admit this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluketheduke Posted February 24, 2010 #83 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I do not know about Seselj's opinion, but I for sure know that in the earliest Russian chronicles (The Tale of Bygone Years) Croats are separately mentioned under 9th-10th century among the tribes participating in Oleg's expedition to Constantinople, this means early Russians were distinguishing them from the Serbs. I also know that the language is often called Serbo-Croatian, and that I can read it with a minor effort, despite it is hard for me to catch the colloquial forms of it. To me it appears as a dialectical form of Old Slavonic, same as most of modern Slavic languages. I do not find the issue as hypersensitive at all, maybe of course it is seen like that in Serbia, hard to say. For me the difference between the Serbs and Croats are similar to the difference between the Russians and the Poles, except the split among the initial tribe of Poles is much deeper, so we now have two almost different languages instead of one as well as mixed dialectical forms between them (Ukrainian, Belorussian). Helen, I find it quite sad that all you have been doing threw this thread is criticizing Serbia even though you claim to have a non-hatred policy going on. Why must you think that the Kosovo issue has something to do with Croatia, because truthfully it doesn't so why bring it up? The only reason this thread was brought up was to discuss the legality of the quasi-State of Kosovo, which is illegal by international law alone. Second of all why wasn't the government of Krajina allowed to have a government? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina, it was actually instituted more peacefully then Kosovo, but wait again, 600,000 people (of Serbian descent) where ethnically cleansed from there for doing so, with the remaining post-war Serbian population still being forced to convert to Catholicism. Then why do you not discuss why Serbians might have a rotten attitude towards Croatians?, why didn't you go more in depth and disclose with everyone the colourful history of the Ustasha? It was only 60 years a go or so when Croatian fascists(which are still praised in Croatia to this day)had set up death camps and had exterminated over 2,000,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsys, Homosexuals and Croatian who didn't agree with there ideologies, and all of this in the wonderfully designed Aushwitz style death camps, Jasenovac being the most famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac. Why wasn't Krajina allowed to have a government?, the Serbs there had actually been there for over 600-700 years? Instead they where exterminated and sent out. In a matter of 2 years from 1995-97 the Serbian population in Karajina dropped down to 6,000. That isn't really important we are discussing the Kosovo matter, RESOLUTION 1244 Clearly STATES that Kosovo will not leave Serbia's Constitution, but will remain under UNMIK. This resolution was broken, and just because the United States decided to recognize it, that doesn't make it a country. Even if it is brought to international court, Russia and China will veto the new amendment, because of that fact that its ilegal for a state to solely proclaim independence unless its original parent state with which it had a union with complies, this you can see by Great Britain's releasing its colonies in a "LEGAL MATTER". This has nothing to do with CROATIA! WE ARE SOLELY DISCUSSING THE LEGALITY OF "KOSOVO'S QUASI STATE" You are completley biased and honestly stop trolling unless you have something intelligent to say. ignorance isn't bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted February 24, 2010 #84 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Solar, my opinion is just my opinion and it's up there. All the best to you, and I'm sorry for I've put you in the same basket with people like this one -> Sluke, you are one of those who believe that lies become truth if you keep repeating them? You think I’ll dignify that pile of ridiculous crap with serious analysis? 2.000.000? Why not 20.000.000? And how many among them are wounded partisans, slaughtered by chetniks under German command? 600.000? Why not 6.000.000? And how many among them are wounded from Vukovar hospital, slaughtered by chetniks under Milosevic's command? You even call yourself 'duke', after chetnik title 'vojvoda'? Have you no shame? Keep up the good work, let the world see what kind of people is holding Serbia hostage with their medieval hateful mentality. Edited February 24, 2010 by Helen of Annoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted February 24, 2010 #85 Share Posted February 24, 2010 By the way, this is exactly what I meant when I said that WWII is not finished yet. Whatever you say, whatever you do, someone will pull the ustasha and chetnik from under the carpet and we won’t stop arguing and recounting dead until someone doesn’t hit the floor. I’m not immune to this either, and it took me a whole hour to calm down. And my grandparents were partisan (against both ustasha and chetnik). Will someone please ban me before I have a heart attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 24, 2010 Author #86 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Mate, you obviously have to learn how to take the things easier. I DID went out-of-line, and this was the first time i ever did so, on this web site. It has to do with this topic being highly emotional to some of us but Marabod you portray me as a hothead type with the above statement something which i am not. please choose your words better ...But you must learn how to get above, or beyond being a Serb. The World and its cultures are not limited to English, Indian, Chinese or a Serbian one. Its a bigger thing...You must shift to being a full Cosmopolitan, screw the Serbs, Russians, Croatians etc you name it. First of all we are all Homo Sapience, this includes Kosovo Albanians, if even they sometimes fail to admit this. Yeah this is my view too - we are all brothers and sisters We have two hands, two legs, one head and one stomach. And why isnt eye color as discriminative as skin colour?! Its just human ignorance that alters our perception. Ofcourse and countless puppet-ideologists who enforce ignorance, some even not-knowingly Maybe when we meet ETs we will also call them our brothers? Were all entities of the Universe, no? I DO view things this way so dont worry (im against nationalism its dangerous and undesired) Edited February 24, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 24, 2010 Author #87 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Solar, my opinion is just my opinion and it's up there. All the best to you, and I'm sorry for I've put you in the same basket with people like this... Hey Helen im glad thats over By the way this is obviously an emotional topic, so i woudlnt say Sluke is necesseraly chauvinist or a seselj-ideologist or something... Sluke, you are one of those who believe that lies become truth if you keep repeating them? You think I’ll dignify that pile of ridiculous crap with serious analysis? Sorry helen but he only used wikipedia, no? 2.000.000? Why not 20.000.000? And how many among them are wounded partisans, slaughtered by chetniks under German command?600.000? Why not 6.000.000? And how many among them are wounded from Vukovar hospital, slaughtered by chetniks under Milosevic's command? We are again falling collectively and unawarely in this old trap called my-pain-is-greater-than-yours... sigh Chetniks killed and suffered Partisans killed and suffered Ustasa killed and suffered Serbs killed and suffered Croats killed and suffered Albanians killed and suffered lets end this story PLEASE You even call yourself 'duke', after chetnik title 'vojvoda'? Have you no shame? Hey lets not draw conclusions so fast, i dont think Sluke is not even from the Balkans..... Also, duke comes from latin dux if im not mistaken... meaning military commander or ruler - just like vojvoda. Its not necesseraly a 'chetnik' term Keep up the good work, let the world see what kind of people is holding Serbia hostage with their medieval hateful mentality. Yeah. I strongly suspect that puppet-ideologists on the Balkans are an instrument of the NATO Edited February 24, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 24, 2010 Author #88 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) Sluke, ...RESOLUTION 1244 Clearly STATES that Kosovo will not leave Serbia's Constitution, but will remain under UNMIK... I must add that this was always the case. Reasonable and practical autonomy for Kosovo, and territorial integrity for Serbia. So all of a sudden, one side has to get the short end? Why? Because USA smells caspian oil and afgan opium?? Both go through Kosovo, which is among the biggest crossroads of drugs, weapons and trafficking in the world. Bondsteel is the US military base on Kosovo. The biggest US military base since Vietnam??? Coincidence? EVEN IF its because the Albanians outbreeded the Serbs its not fair, and sure as hell doesnt make it legal I believe that Albanians and Serbs have friendships on Kosovo. Its the puppet-ideologists (Seselj, Gotovina) and the para-militants (KLA, Tigrovi) who are used as a catalyst over and over! The Balkans was always a one big powder-keg. Throw one little spark and BOOOOM - a chain reaction occurs Please look below stage 1 ...The latest unrest began on 15 March 2004 with the drive-by shooting of an 18-year-old Serb, Jovica Ivić, in the village of Čaglavica in the central region of Kosovo. Local Serbs from the village staged demonstrations and blocked traffic in protest at the shooting. stage 2 On 16 March, three Albanian children drowned in the Ibar River in the village of Čabar, near the Serb community of Zubin Potok. A fourth boy survived. It was speculated that he and his friends had been chased into the river by Serbs in revenge for the shooting of Ivić the previous day, but this claim has not been proven.[4] It is often claimed that the fourth boy was indoctrinated by his parents.[citation needed] stage 3 The following day thousands of Kosovo Albanians, protesting against the boys' deaths, gathered at the south end of the bridge across the Ibar at Kosovska Mitrovica, which divides the Serbian and Albanian districts of the town. A large crowd of Serbs gathered at the north end to prevent the Albanians from crossing. Peacekeepers from the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) blockaded the bridge, using tear gas, rubber bullets and stun grenades to keep the crowds apart. However, gunmen on both sides opened fire with submachine guns and grenades, killing at least eight people (six Albanians and two Serbs) and wounding over 300. Eleven peacekeepers were also injured, of which two seriously. classic example ...because of that fact that its ilegal for a state to solely proclaim independence unless its original parent state with which it had a union with complies, this you can see by Great Britain's releasing its colonies in a "LEGAL MATTER". Yeah its all about who is stronger. Serbia could never do that, but UK and US - sure.... double standards here are painfully obvious... Edited February 24, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluketheduke Posted February 25, 2010 #89 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Solar, my opinion is just my opinion and it's up there. All the best to you, and I'm sorry for I've put you in the same basket with people like this one -> Sluke, you are one of those who believe that lies become truth if you keep repeating them? You think I’ll dignify that pile of ridiculous crap with serious analysis? 2.000.000? Why not 20.000.000? And how many among them are wounded partisans, slaughtered by chetniks under German command? 600.000? Why not 6.000.000? And how many among them are wounded from Vukovar hospital, slaughtered by chetniks under Milosevic's command? You even call yourself 'duke', after chetnik title 'vojvoda'? Have you no shame? Keep up the good work, let the world see what kind of people is holding Serbia hostage with their medieval hateful mentality. First of all, don't quote Joseph Goebbels because I am already aware of the fact that Croatians have a fine tie to Nazism and just because you want to mock the numbers, that doesn't make them a lie. This happened whether you deny it or not, second of all I am not Serbian, and third of all for your information duke in the english language does translate to Vojvoda, but not all the dukes in history participated in the Yugoslav wars. Also for your general knowledge Chetniks where originally a royalists Yugoslav army which was made up of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and others. The Serbians that participated in the Yugoslav wars where not Chetniks they only adopted the name. Get your facts straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 25, 2010 #90 Share Posted February 25, 2010 First of all, don't quote Joseph Goebbels because I am already aware of the fact that Croatians have a fine tie to Nazism and just because you want to mock the numbers, that doesn't make them a lie. This happened whether you deny it or not, second of all I am not Serbian, and third of all for your information duke in the english language does translate to Vojvoda, but not all the dukes in history participated in the Yugoslav wars. Also for your general knowledge Chetniks where originally a royalists Yugoslav army which was made up of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and others. The Serbians that participated in the Yugoslav wars where not Chetniks they only adopted the name. Get your facts straight. I would say you insult the Croatians! That they historically sympathise to Germans we all know, but this is not a reason to call them Nazi. Russians also always liked Germans, and had millions of German immigrants living in the country, they even had their own republic. In ww2 2 million Russians were fighting against USSR on German side. After the war they got maximum 4-6 years imprisonment for treason (this is documented by Solzhenitsyn) and then returned to society, many are still alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted February 25, 2010 Author #91 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) ..., but this is not a reason to call them Nazi hey am i missing something? I would say you insult the Croatians! Hey lets slow down, there are neo-nazi movements in probably all countries. I very much doubt that he was trying to say Croatians are nazi. Sure, you have nazi tendencies everywhere Marabod lets stop trying to put out the fire with more gasoline as Helen put it Edited February 25, 2010 by SolarPlexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted February 25, 2010 #92 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I won’t turn this into WWII discussion, no matter how tempting it is. This thread is about the legality of Kosovo as a state. (Which still looks irrevocable to me, but frankly, even stranger things have happened so... you never know.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluketheduke Posted February 25, 2010 #93 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I won’t turn this into WWII discussion, no matter how tempting it is. This thread is about the legality of Kosovo as a state. (Which still looks irrevocable to me, but frankly, even stranger things have happened so... you never know.) Well dear Helen, I never intended to turn this into a WW2 discussion, you where the first one to begin demonizing Serbs and bringing up completely irrelevant information to the discussion. (samo da znas tako se to pise duso moja ) Anyways Kosovo never the less is an illegal state. If it where justified for a state to become independent, solely because the population living there decided so we would have many new independent states this causing great international conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARAB0D Posted February 26, 2010 #94 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Well dear Helen, I never intended to turn this into a WW2 discussion, you where the first one to begin demonizing Serbs and bringing up completely irrelevant information to the discussion. (samo da znas tako se to pise duso moja ) Anyways Kosovo never the less is an illegal state. If it where justified for a state to become independent, solely because the population living there decided so we would have many new independent states this causing great international conflict. The head is to be determining the legalities, not the soul... Kosovo has happened, it is a Reality of today. Moreover, it has opened the process of redrawing the borders worldwide, and those very countries, which were assisting Kosovo to become a separate state may soon become the victims of this action and start losing own seceding territories. Such is life. No sense pointing to WW2, when we can have ww3 coming because of all this! Just wait for some Belgium to crack, or Scotland seceding, or Basques, or even California... Also no one so far knows what Germany thinks about Sudettenland and Silesia, its also a Kosovo-type situation. Crisis weakens central power, so we may witness more partitions coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted February 26, 2010 #95 Share Posted February 26, 2010 (edited) Well dear Helen, I never intended to turn this into a WW2 discussion, you where the first one to begin demonizing Serbs and bringing up completely irrelevant information to the discussion. (samo da znas tako se to pise duso moja ) Anyways Kosovo never the less is an illegal state. If it where justified for a state to become independent, solely because the population living there decided so we would have many new independent states this causing great international conflict. First, Im not demonizing Serbs, its Serbia that demonized itself by letting psychopaths take it over. Second, I wrote irrevocable because I meant precisely that not able to be reversed. It is kind of irrelevant to me, though, because I dont have to share your megalomania anymore. Third, I highly doubt Kosovo on its own will cause great international conflict in future, judging by the lack of Russian interest so far. To have a conflict you need more than one side and the expected other side apparently has better things to do than to fight for strategically semi-worthless, relatively small region with extremely ugly terrain and determined population. Thats not hatred speaking, these are the facts. Sooner you realise you are pretty much left on your own in this, sooner youll snap out of this mass ego trip. And finally, it's so nice of you that you've provided me with another I told you so guys. I wasn't born yesterday. The head is to be determining the legalities, not the soul... Kosovo has happened, it is a Reality of today. Moreover, it has opened the process of redrawing the borders worldwide, and those very countries, which were assisting Kosovo to become a separate state may soon become the victims of this action and start losing own seceding territories. Such is life. No sense pointing to WW2, when we can have ww3 coming because of all this! Just wait for some Belgium to crack, or Scotland seceding, or Basques, or even California... Also no one so far knows what Germany thinks about Sudettenland and Silesia, its also a Kosovo-type situation. Crisis weakens central power, so we may witness more partitions coming soon. Separation is fashion these days, just like nation unions were hip in 19th century and inventing federations was political panacea in mid 20th. If the united Europe was more than one big bureaucratic machine, it wouldnt matter, because all those (hypothetical and real) newly separated states would still be just another part of it. (I'm speaking of Europe only, obviously. California excluded... Just making sure every duke got that right. ) Edited February 26, 2010 by Helen of Annoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted February 26, 2010 #96 Share Posted February 26, 2010 LOL, I forgot to mention that this Turcic word is in wide usage in Russian language in all dialects, saraj means there "a shed", like in a garden shed or for some machinery or storage for old odds - a primitive backyard building. Actualy "Saraj" means "Palast". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odas Posted February 26, 2010 #97 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Thank you for expanding on that, Helen – I do see there are differences. That surely translates as “football”…… right? No, but let us say it is easy to "score". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudo Intellectual Posted February 26, 2010 #98 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I don't think legality is relevant in these situations. If a people consider their leaders oppressive, and want to secede, you won't really convince them not to by telling them it's illegal. Wasn't the American Revolution, technically, illegal? It doesn't mean it wasn't right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q24 Posted February 26, 2010 #99 Share Posted February 26, 2010 No, but let us say it is easy to "score". Basketball? I don’t understand, please will someone explain it to me? I don't think legality is relevant in these situations. If a people consider their leaders oppressive, and want to secede, you won't really convince them not to by telling them it's illegal. Wasn't the American Revolution, technically, illegal? It doesn't mean it wasn't right. I must take this opportunity to agree with Pseudo as I don’t often get the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted February 26, 2010 #100 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I don't think legality is relevant in these situations. If a people consider their leaders oppressive, and want to secede, you won't really convince them not to by telling them it's illegal. Wasn't the American Revolution, technically, illegal? It doesn't mean it wasn't right. And on top of it, Kosovo is not illegal secession. Complicated for sure, but not illegal. I’ll explain why: Yugoslavia consisted of six republics with constitutional right to secession. One republic, Serbia, had two autonomous provinces, Vojvodina and Kosovo. Not only everyone had right to get out of federation, but also this federation ceased to exist almost 20 years ago. Serbia and Montenegro decided to stay together and keep the name Yugoslavia, on which they technically had no right since it lost legality (You want legality? I’ll give you legality.) when majority of its founding republics went out. It’s important to know that ‘first’ Yugoslavia was invented after WWI to make management of this part of the world easier for apparently rather lazy minds on the winning side. It was organized as a kingdom, with Serbian ‘royal’ family, regardless of the fact that no Serbian king has ever ruled Slovenia or Croatia before, and without general consent. So if we are going to question the legality of Balkan states, we can start with this preposterous Yugoslavia v1.0. Skip forward to WWII, year 1943. Partisan forces led by Communist party are the only – the only – who are fighting the invaders and they do it amazingly good if you bear in mind they started with nothing. Many people join them, not because they are communists, but because they are the only resistance. So they found completely new Yugoslavia, a federation of six republics, write constitution, blah blah, officially forbid mock king to ever again set his hoof on Yu soil, replace hegemony with equality. The idea of equality was in the foundations of Yugoslavia, so regardless of the fact that it wasn’t practiced fairly, it was still the last thing you can throw away and keep calling yourself a Yugoslav. So, Yugoslavia v2.0 lost its legality when Milosevic openly betrayed the Yugoslavian idea and every other (brotherly, not slavery!) nation and tried to turn it into Greater Serbia with himself as its dictator. Naturally, every other nation said ‘**** you’ and left the federation one by one, Slovenia and Croatia first. Then it gets complicated, skip forward to today. Shameful war is over, every side contributed with their share of moronism, dishonesty, war profiteering and such, but regardless how ugly the process of separation was for some, every former ex-Yu republic is now independent state. Because population of each of these states said it will be so. Why would Kosovo be exception? Serbia tried that strategy in Croatia too, saying that ‘wherever is one Serbian grave, it is Serbia’. According to that logic, I want a piece of Austria, Italy, USA, Canada, Australia, Argentina and so on. Let me sum it all up with this anecdote - Someone wrote on a post office building ‘This is Serbia’. Someone else added ‘No, you idiot, this is post office.’ Basketball? I don’t understand, please will someone explain it to me? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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